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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by KhellendrosUK View Post
    I think this is spot with 1 important exception;

    Heroic TR should not be forced with Epic TR, i.e. a non-triple completionist should have the option to start at L20 (obviously without gaining a heroic PL) because there are some people out there who have not gained triple completionist but still feel that their heroic TRs are 'done' and having done that already should not be a punishment.

    Other than that, some great work there, thank you!
    If you Epic TR as a standard class, you will still pick up a Past Life Feat and an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat. If you Epic TR into a standard class, you will start at 1. We put a mock-up together here to show what this could look like if Epic TRing started you on the Heart of Wind - this lets you get more mileage from your Veteran I and Veteran II status. I still like the idea of this just to add value to these favour unlocks.

    If you Epic TR as an Iconic class, you will pick up an Iconic Past Life Feat and an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat. If you Epic TR into an Iconic class, you will start at 15.

    Starting at 20 would mean that you wouldn't be entitled to a Past Life Feat or an Iconic Past Life Feat because you've not given anything up to receive it. If you're really only interested in the Epic Destiny Past Life Feats then Epic TRing into an Iconic is your best bet.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Recared View Post
    That's a very ambitious proposal, very interesting. Some stuff seems a bit hyperpowered (not overpowered ;-)) but who knows, it's at least "epic".
    Regarding evasion, maybe an alternative could be some form of "minor" evasion (if you succeed in saving throw, you now take not 50% dmg but 25% dmg (where applicable))?
    The details of the Epic Destiny Past lives aren't really part of the proposal though. Would it not be better to start another thread, or add to one of the existing ones to gather ideas for this in one place?

    There are some ideas for this being kicked around here https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...pic-Past-Lives

  3. #63
    Community Member Dendrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigtrent View Post
    [B]Player's Choice Design[*]Better Completionist: The completionist reward is no longer something that requires a feat slot, forcing you to make a trade off to get the benefit of your significant efforts to achieve it.
    The Completionist feat is very powerful and is worth the cost of a feat. I don't believe that the Dev Team will reduce it to free, nor do I thinky they should. I would much rather have the feat act as below.
    Completionist = current completionist feat (2 point bonus to stats, skills, saves)
    Double Completionist (twice in all classes) = 3 points not 2 points
    Triple Completionist (three times in all classes) = 4 points not 2 points

    Epic Completionist (all epic destinies maxed out) = increase the completionist feat bonus' by 1

  4. #64

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    I would like to see some option for gaining evasion for a toon without having to splash
    2 levels of monk or be outside your main epic destiny someday.

    Hey It might be a nice Epic Completionist bonus?

    I am very tired of paying feat slots for past lives feats, and I would like to see
    all the past life feats that cost a feat be recycled into the many more passive
    past life feats we are going to need in the future:

    13 Iconics and 13 Epic Destinies someday???

    Much prefer that Completionist be an auto grant.

  5. #65
    Community Member MarcusCleardawn's Avatar
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    1. If this were the system, I think you'd see a lot of people burning level 1 destinies in their Epic TR.

    2. It does not "allow characters to [efficiently] acquire heroic past life feats by playing at the cap"; Personally I don't have a problem with that, but it was one of Vargouille's stated goals.

  6. #66

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    Ok something useful http://ddowiki.com/page/Exalted_Angel

    I started seeing some suggestions for the Epic Destiny Past Life Auto Grant and frankly
    they are kind of poorly thought out.

    I do know about angel builds, so I can contribute there.

    Angels builds at the moment suffer from two things.
    Lack of Light SLA and terrible cooldown of Reborn in light.

    So, a solid Angel Past Life Auto Grant would address one or both of these two issues.

    The cooldown on Reborn in Light is the most complained about epic destiny cooldown;
    it is 30 minutes and persists after you leave a quest.

    Reducing the cooldown to 10 minutes would be much better without being broken.
    In fact many would insist that it need to be readjusted anyway.

    Instead of adding more Light SLA, if the cooldown of Avenging Light (which is easily
    twistable) could be reduced to the range of 1 to 2 seconds cooldown instead of 3 seconds,
    that would greatly help reduced hot key madness and provide a solid SLA for Divines.

    The lack of Light SLA (nimbus of light does not even increment the endless aura/
    reborn in light counters) makes it near impossible to use this epic destiny efficiently
    with a cleric who lack the archon of a favored soul and the Silver Flame Past Life SLA.

  7. #67
    Community Member Shinjiteru's Avatar
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    After reading this suggestion and the goals of the discussion about the epic tr system I see some possible enhancements in your suggestion which would be my major concern to make sure the new epic TR system fits really most play styles.

    First of all, gerneral Epic TR shouldn't return you to lvl 1. Ofcause, this also means no heroic class PL for you.
    I think best would be to let a lvl 28 player decide if he wants to epic tr, heroic TR or undergo a combinded TR(epic+heroic TR).
    The combinded TR would be like the suggestion in first post.
    Heroic TR for the ones who don't want to have their ED XP touched or already are epic completionist and can't epic TR anymore.
    Epic TR for someone who doesn't need or want any more heroic PL and just focuses on getting Epic PLs and prefers to stay at endgame without having to repeat the heroic part of the game, that's why epic TR should start at lvl 20. (so this might use the code of the LR with some additional perks for the epic TR)

    This way heroic and epic TR would not interfere with each other and everyone can decide himself if he wants to epic TR, heroic TR or both at once depending on the own play style. I also think that would be easiest way to implement an epic TR that doesn't penalize anyone who is already completionist or doesn't want to heroic TR anymore.

    Since heroic and epic TR are seperated epic doesn't give 38 built points at first epic TR but yields +2 built points, so you still need to be in third life to be able to get the 38 built points.


    About the answers that said you could just epic TR into an iconic class to bypass the first 15 levels... I think you shouldn't be forced to buy iconic heroes just to make the epic TR system working for your play style if Turbine really tries to get a system which suits as many play styles as possible.
    And if Epic TR returns you to lvl 1 it also penalizes the players who didn't get their first epic PL on their second life. -> Yes there are players who need 2-4 weeks or more for lvl 1-20. And if epic TR would return you to lvl 1 without yielding the benefits of heroic TR it would penalize even more for not getting your epic PLs on your first life before doing heroic TRs. But that was probably the reason why the suggestion included heroic TR with the epic TR.

    But as already mentioned I would prefer a more modular system where epic tr and heroic TR are two seperate things although there is a possibility to combine both. If epic TRs would start at 20 there wouldn't even be the need to make such a combined option for the players just let them use a epic tr token and right after that a heroic tr token.


    And about the intention to get more players into the low level content... Not sure about the statistics but most players I know don't group with newbies anymore in the low levels or just let them 'pike' if they manage to reach the quest before completion. And I also think most newbies are better off not partying with the pro TR crowd. That's why I am not sure how many of the TRing players really help new players to get into the game and have someone to play with.

  8. #68
    Community Member susiedupfer's Avatar
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    +1 Sig!

    I agree with that wholeheartedly!

    I have one thing(possibly off-topic, but pertinent): Reset repetition counters to 0 EACH Heroic and Epic TR. Having to avoid certain quests while TR'ing is counter-productive.
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  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusCleardawn View Post
    1. If this were the system, I think you'd see a lot of people burning level 1 destinies in their Epic TR.
    Which is fine. My goal is not to make people loose XP, its to give them something to level up while they are in their epic levels and incentive them to work on it.

    2. It does not "allow characters to [efficiently] acquire heroic past life feats by playing at the cap"; Personally I don't have a problem with that, but it was one of Vargouille's stated goals.
    I'm not sure how my proposal would be that different in this regard. I based my system on what he proposed, I was primarily trying to solve the loss of Destiny XP issue and add in a couple long time fan requests.
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  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinjiteru View Post
    And about the intention to get more players into the low level content... Not sure about the statistics but most players I know don't group with newbies anymore in the low levels or just let them 'pike' if they manage to reach the quest before completion. And I also think most newbies are better off not partying with the pro TR crowd. That's why I am not sure how many of the TRing players really help new players to get into the game and have someone to play with.
    Thanks for the thoughtful input. I agree that letting folks Epic TR to 20 would make a fair number of players happy. But I am trying to play both sides and consider the design goals of the game makers as well as the desires of players. So the issue of getting people to play low level content remains a concern for my design.

    Its not about helping new players as it is getting use out of all the old content in the game. If you let players do all their improvement in the epic content, then the epic content can get over used. It is still a minority of the content in the game, the vast bulk of what Turbine has invested over the years is still in the 1-20 content. If you encourage players to only experience that once, then its far more likely that people quickly burn out on the much smaller number of epic quests. One of the problems in the current ED system is it does exactly that and you see folks running rusted blades 20 times a night. At some point they wake up and realize how boring that is but they often just think, DDO as a whole is boring.

    So as a designer you want to encourage people, through the use of rewards, to experience as wide a variety of content as possible and still allow them some measure of choice for personal preference. Its a bit like getting kids to eat the full meal and not just the desert. Given the choice they will eat nothing but chocolate Sundays but they will quickly get sick that way and all the other food you prepared goes to waste. So you find a way to get them to eat the whole meal (and hopefully the whole meal is pretty good).

    All MMOs face the challenge that players can consume content faster than you can make it. It is exacerbated when there is no reason to replay older content. The TR system (I believe) primarily exists to encourage veteran players to play older content.
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  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by susiedupfer View Post
    I have one thing(possibly off-topic, but pertinent): Reset repetition counters to 0 EACH Heroic and Epic TR. Having to avoid certain quests while TR'ing is counter-productive.
    Thanks for the support.

    I had thought completion counters were re-set on TR... I certainly agree they should and I'll look into it. My only TR has never been to epic levels (since the system doesn't make that worth while currently) so I'm guessing epic counters don't reset on heroic TR? But any time you are going to get your XP wiped, you should have all the usual tools needed to work it back up!
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  12. #72
    Community Member Grosbeak07's Avatar
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    One question I have that I don't think is clearly answered in your system or Turbine's proposal...

    Say I have a 28 pt build, If I took the Epic TR option as my 1st TR choice, would my character automatically become a 38 pt build? Or would I have to have TR'd at least 2 times before?
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  13. #73
    Community Member Yaga_Nub's Avatar
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    Default Still not that great

    Sig,

    While I like that fact that you are trying to give the devs some input, and not withstanding Varg's post, this system still has issues, some bigger, some smaller, and isn't truly BETTER than the system the devs described.

    TRing does need a complete overhaul but I don't think they should be shooting for U20. It's not broken enough to fix now so why rush. As usual, the issue is that we need more quests not new gimmicks. Epic TRing is a gimmick. Making heroic TRing easier is a gimmick.

    If they want to make heroic TRing easier/different then do this:

    TR1 you have to complete every non-epic quest in the game on Hard difficulty.

    TR2 and above Elite. That cuts out doing Running with the Devils 8 times or Monestary 10 times, Kobold's New Ringleader to -90% XP.

    If we're going to change/fix TRing and we say that the devs want people to experience more of the game then running all the quests in all the zone pretty much does that right?

    And epic TRing is just unnecessary. We want to make the quests even easier than they already are?

    Maybe I'm just an old-timers but the game has already been turned in something that even the lowest common denominator of player can excel at so why make it even easier.

    If they're going to do epic TR then let's think of something besides build points they can give people.
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  14. #74
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigtrent View Post
    Thanks for the support.

    I had thought completion counters were re-set on TR... I certainly agree they should and I'll look into it. My only TR has never been to epic levels (since the system doesn't make that worth while currently) so I'm guessing epic counters don't reset on heroic TR? But any time you are going to get your XP wiped, you should have all the usual tools needed to work it back up!
    Frankly having 2 separate counters is dumb (my opinion), and does not promote over all game play fun (again, my opinion.)

    What I suggest would be to put each quest on a ransack XP timer, much like chests are. First time running (CNHE) still act as they do now, but immediate runnings (with in that ransack time period) they get less and less XP.

    This would remove the issue of running one quest to oblivion and back to level up EDs in a weekend. You know Turbine hates this.

    This would also remove the over all issue of window farming expediencies rendering the issues to less of a problem.

    It gives the advantage that one counter can be used that actually counts how many times a quest is run compared to the inaccurate running now.
    Normally by the time one would be done with heroic, they can step right into Epic without having that rerun penalty you can face.
    If you like running a particular quest, it becomes possible to run it without suffering XP loss for it. (this may actually help to slightly promote sales of content.)

    Quest XP granted would have to be adjusted such that 1st time running can be done on both heroic difficulties and epic difficulties separately.

    This system promotes average and causal XP earning, but yes, it would irritate the heck out of power gamers that want power, and want it right away. Power growth gets slowed down a bit by this method.

    And yes, I know that is such a method gets adopted, I just got myself a whole lot of hate.

  15. #75
    Community Member Atremus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigtrent View Post
    Thanks for the support.

    I had thought completion counters were re-set on TR... I certainly agree they should and I'll look into it. My only TR has never been to epic levels (since the system doesn't make that worth while currently) so I'm guessing epic counters don't reset on heroic TR? But any time you are going to get your XP wiped, you should have all the usual tools needed to work it back up!
    I believe that the reference post refers to separating Quest counters for Heroic and Epic Level content. A very specific example is Jungle of Khyber. VoN3 is a great Farming quest at level 11/12 or at Level 24/25 (until the level cap goes up). I believe that most people save this quest now until cap so they can get the epic XP rather than Heroic.

    And yes all counters reset each TR. At least they do today.


    Edit: I type slower than MM
    Quote Originally Posted by Grosbeak07 View Post
    One question I have that I don't think is clearly answered in your system or Turbine's proposal...

    Say I have a 28 pt build, If I took the Epic TR option as my 1st TR choice, would my character automatically become a 38 pt build? Or would I have to have TR'd at least 2 times before?
    I would hope you have to "build" up to the 38 point build just like in our existing system. Possibly an epic TR could start at 36 points rather than 34? But going to 38 seems to be,too much for a single TR.
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  16. #76
    The Hatchery Roland_D'Arabel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaga_Nub View Post
    Sig,

    If they want to make heroic TRing easier/different then do this:

    TR1 you have to complete every non-epic quest in the game on Hard difficulty.

    TR2 and above Elite. That cuts out doing Running with the Devils 8 times or Monestary 10 times, Kobold's New Ringleader to -90% XP.
    Forcing people to run content they don't own, dislike or cannot complete in order to make use of the TR mechanic is anti-fun and not conducive to the spirit of playing a game.
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  17. #77

    Thumbs up Two thumbs up

    I want to be on record as giving the ideas in the OP two thumbs up!

    Also two big toes, two elbows, two knees and one large bulbous nose.

  18. #78

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    The one thing that this proposal is missing is that, when we have to make the jump from level 20 to level 28, we will have to earn enough XP to cap out 3 destinies. (5,200,000XP total if the pattern holds.) Why not include an option to clear-out/re-level an entire sphere?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cableman View Post
    What if I already have all the Heroic Past Lives that I desire? For example, lets say I'm a melee character and I already did 3 lives of all the various melee options, would it not be a waste of my time to have to level a life that has no benefit in order to get an epic past life feat?

    All the huff in the other thread is about losing time spent leveling destinies. Isn't this the same?
    Maybe that could be an “Epic Lesser Reincarnation” option? You start back at level 20 and don't get the heroic feat.
    Things that if Turbine went all EXTREME PREJUDICE™ on, would actually make the game fun again.:
    • Giving us the racial PrE’s we were promised, before rolling out DDOStore™ Enhancement Trees.
    • Fixing physical defense for Rangers and Rogues. It’s ridiculous that you’re better off wearing Heavy Armor and ignoring your innate feats on these classes.
    • Cannith Crafting.
    • Update the named loot to put them on the same system.
    • Fixing the Cannith Challenges so that they can be 6 starred without incredible luck or store bought items.
    • Fixing all challenges to give us decent XP and ingredient returns for the unreasonable time we have to spend in most of them.

  19. #79
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    I'm not goin to run eroic lives again, at least i can consider to reset ONE of my epic destiny and roll a new lev 20 character once hit lev 28, but nothing more. I got many toons with a total of 24 lives, i'm not goin to have any more fun farming the shadow crypt for earning a 4th class life, this game can't go further with a waste-lot-of-time to win.

  20. #80
    The Hatchery SisAmethyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigtrent View Post
    Noted as second suggestion along these lines. Since this is supposed to be the Players Choice, I'm definitely open to modifying my proposal, not sure yet. Its a balance between the desire to move folks through lower level content to maximize content efficiency, and giving folks only the part of the game they want (in this case for those focused on epic content).

    Because Turbine was looking at lowering the overall TR XP costs, I'm still kind of on the fence on this. If TR lives don't take terribly long, its not that much burden to go from 1-20. But if its a boring slog, then its silly to make folks do it.

    Personally I like running 1 to cap more than grinding up at cap. I really like the experience of a character growing steadily and rapidly.
    In general I think the epic TR should be much more about the epic level play and less about the heroic. After all if one would want to replay heroic levels one could just do a regular heroic TR. Additionally the ideas of leveling stones, iconics that start at level 15, XP boosts and so on isn't entirely unfound without justification. If nobody would want to fly through the heroic levels Turbine wouldn't sell those.

    On the other hand I totally agree with you that too much of this hurts the game, as well as it creates gaps where I skip to much ahead of my guildies or TRing comrades. That is why I think the XP bank thing isn't a bad idea as it allows players to adjust how they see it fit. Especially if you have a mixed group of 2nd TR, 1st TR and new players, where the new players regularly may outlevel the 2nd TR. On which base you fill this XP bank is however a good question.
    * We have collectable bags, hell even hireling folders, but can I have that 6-pack for my potions please?
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