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  1. #41
    Community Member parowan's Avatar
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    /signed

    Not in 100% agreement in all points, but if I could lock this in rather than let Turbine continue down the path they're heading I would do so with enthusiasm.

    I love completionist being a free feat - it's not overpowered and being free seems a reasonable reward.

    I like the idea of triple completionist being able to start at 20 and don't agree with those who think they should get such a benefit once they've simply gotten the past lives that interest them. You have to get all past lives to get the completionist feat, even the ones that are "irrelevant" to you. Similarly you should get them all to have the benefit of triple completionist. As has been pointed out, if you don't want those past lives and only want to hurry back for another epic TR you can go iconic and start at 15. That's more than enough of a short cut for those who aren't triple completionists.

    An additional point: even if you have veteran and vet7 unlocked, you can't heroic TR to lvl 4 or 7. TR means starting over. You have to live a full life in order to get that past life feat. And only if there are no more past life feats left to gain should you be able to skip ahead.

    There would need to be some kind of limit on fate points, what that limit is I don't know. It's true more are possible whenever they add a new ED, but that doesn't happen often (once so far). Thought would have to be given to make sure that epic TRing wouldn't result in so many fate points that it feels unbalanced.

    But I really like the proposal overall. It didn't quite win me over when I first listened to the podcast, but reading it here has helped.
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  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Sounds perfect assuming I read it right Sig....just to clarify though if I have two question

    First off say for sake of the question I have every single destiny maxed out at Lvl 25 and choose Epic Reincarnation: ShadowDancer when I hit level 20 (start at 1 unless I have triple past lives of everything) I will receive a free feat: ShadowDancer past life and than Shadowdancer will have 0 XP (but still be unlocked) but all my other Destinies will still be maxed out.
    Not quite but close.

    You are maxed out level 25(28 by the time this goes live) and you have all the destinies maxed out currently.

    Before reincarnating, you can go and claim a past life feat for any that you have capped, in this case Shadowdancer. You get the feat right away and can use it at Cap.

    When you want to reincarnate, you choose any of your epic destinies to work on for your next life. Since I'm assuming for now that ED Past life feats do not stack, you would likely not choose ShadowDancer since you already have that feat. Lets say next Heroic life you were thinking of doing Paladin, so you choose Unyielding Sentinel. That ED goes to zero XP at the same time your class XP goes to zero.

    The next time you cap, and have also maxed out Unyielding Sentinel, you will get your ED feat for Unyielding Sentinel right then and there. If you Epic TR again, you pick another ED to "work on" in the next life.

    --- end example ---

    Imagine if when you are doing heroic levels, as soon as you ding 20, you are granted a past life feat for your current displayed class, even on your first life. That's more what I have in mind for Epic TR.
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  3. #43
    The Hatchery Roland_D'Arabel's Avatar
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    /signed on the OP

    This is a well thought out and cohesive suggestion that I would be happy to see implemented. I think it covers player goals and desires along with the goals Turbine should have for the game. If this were implemented, I would not think twice about TR'ing any of my characters.
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  4. #44

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    +1

    Thank you for taking charge of the situation and working out a counter proposal.

    I am glad a Dev has read this.

    I support this as a quality proposal for the general population of DDO.

  5. #45
    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
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    I like most of this not sure if about allowing even Triple completionists to start 20 is cool or not but thats only a minor quibble But for sure against allowing just basic completionists to do it like some have suggested as that would power every one to completioinist quickly

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  6. #46

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    I added an example to hopefully help clarify when you get the Epic Destiny feats and which Epic destiny is set to 0-XP and when.
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  7. #47
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigtrent View Post
    Not quite but close.

    You are maxed out level 25(28 by the time this goes live) and you have all the destinies maxed out currently.

    Before reincarnating, you can go and claim a past life feat for any that you have capped, in this case Shadowdancer. You get the feat right away and can use it at Cap.

    When you want to reincarnate, you choose any of your epic destinies to work on for your next life. Since I'm assuming for now that ED Past life feats do not stack, you would likely not choose ShadowDancer since you already have that feat. Lets say next Heroic life you were thinking of doing Paladin, so you choose Unyielding Sentinel. That ED goes to zero XP at the same time your class XP goes to zero.

    The next time you cap, and have also maxed out Unyielding Sentinel, you will get your ED feat for Unyielding Sentinel right then and there. If you Epic TR again, you pick another ED to "work on" in the next life.

    --- end example ---

    Imagine if when you are doing heroic levels, as soon as you ding 20, you are granted a past life feat for your current displayed class, even on your first life. That's more what I have in mind for Epic TR.
    Thanks that really cleared things up I'm definitely /signed on this now, oh and your new example in the OP w/ Gungathar (sp?) is perfect
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 06-19-2013 at 12:58 AM.
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  8. #48
    Community Member Rubix's Avatar
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    /signed

    PS: Thanks Sig and others who are putting so much of their time into writing up comments and ideas for the benefit of the community.

  9. #49
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    The one thing that bothers me with both this, and Turbines version of ETRing, is that it's not epic. It's level 1-28...

    While I still have plenty of past lives to grind out on multiple toons and can make use of this to some extent...
    It'll be tough to level from 20-28 on certain lives that are strictly past life builds, not meant for epic levels.

    On top of this, even though they are are, what about people who have already done the completionist, or triple completionist grind?
    It seems strange to me that an Epic TR incompasses the heroic area of the game at all.

    Maybe this is just me, but I'd rather see an ETR reset your toon XP from level 28 back to 20, resetting your chosen epic destiny to 0 XP as well.
    At which point, like the TR system in place for heroic levels, each consecutive life adds to the XP required to cap at 28, or adds to the XP required to cap your destiny.

    This way, the ETR is truly just an Epic TR, and doesn't involve grinding more heroic past lives, which for many people won't be very useful, or attractive.

    This is obviously a really, really rough idea. But I really just don't like the idea of ETR being the same grind as a normal TR.
    Why should I have to farm out more Ranger past lives simply because I was the FOTW epic past life feat?

    Anyways, that's my slightly inebriated, slightly annoyed 2cp.
    Either way though, I'm fully behind this, which seems like a much better system than what Turbine has put forth.

    So, /signed I guess. haha
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  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Great post and thoughts, clear and well presented. Thanks for taking the time to write this us.


    Some interesting ideas.
    To me, it makes more sense that you retain the epic destiny xp of the destiny you choose to bond with.
    Epic Destiny past life feat should be acquired immediately after ETR, not after regaining whatever xp.
    It could be interesting to grant 1 and only 1 fate point per bonded ED... Players could end up with 4-3-2 (or 1) tier twists this way (I don't know if 4-4-1 would be possible).
    Right now it all depends on what the passive past lifes are gonna be to evaluate how much compensated we are for our ED xp lost (if it is lost at the end).
    Please consider expanding heroic max stack of PL feats per class to 4 if after ETR we are gonna get also the corresponding heroic PL feat as well.
    Would be nice to have Completionist and Epic Completionist feats for free, or at least both go together in one feat purchase.
    Anyway, I like how this is starting to look like. Thanks to the devs for listening and debating with the community.

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    Last edited by Recared; 06-19-2013 at 06:09 AM.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    The one thing that bothers me with both this, and Turbines version of ETRing, is that it's not epic. It's level 1-28...

    While I still have plenty of past lives to grind out on multiple toons and can make use of this to some extent...
    It'll be tough to level from 20-28 on certain lives that are strictly past life builds, not meant for epic levels.

    On top of this, even though they are are, what about people who have already done the completionist, or triple completionist grind?
    It seems strange to me that an Epic TR incompasses the heroic area of the game at all.

    Maybe this is just me, but I'd rather see an ETR reset your toon XP from level 28 back to 20, resetting your chosen epic destiny to 0 XP as well.
    At which point, like the TR system in place for heroic levels, each consecutive life adds to the XP required to cap at 28, or adds to the XP required to cap your destiny.

    This way, the ETR is truly just an Epic TR, and doesn't involve grinding more heroic past lives, which for many people won't be very useful, or attractive.

    This is obviously a really, really rough idea. But I really just don't like the idea of ETR being the same grind as a normal TR.
    Why should I have to farm out more Ranger past lives simply because I was the FOTW epic past life feat?

    Anyways, that's my slightly inebriated, slightly annoyed 2cp.
    Either way though, I'm fully behind this, which seems like a much better system than what Turbine has put forth.

    So, /signed I guess. haha
    very well thought out sig but i do agree etr would be to me better implemented as a 20 - 28 tr.

    i hate lowbie levels and love playing epic content so for me would prefere to leave my chars heroic side where it is and just work on epic.

    however op your idea definatly gets my backing hence
    /signed
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  12. #52
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Thinking about it, I would probably prefer epic TR'ing to be completely separated from heroic TR'ing.

    I think it's all right that an epic TR resets all epic destiny xp except for bonded destinies, but only if you can start at lvl 20 right away. In this way you can start working again on those destinies right away without having to go through low level content again. After each epic TR you become a little bit stronger.

    Heroic TR should stay the same as in live and not reset epic destiny xp.

    In any other system I wouldn't even think of epic TR'ing... it's way too much work to cap from lvl 1.

  13. #53
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    Personally I would like it as follows:

    Heroic TRs remain as at present, using Heroic Hearts of wood. There is no resetting of Epic Destines.

    Epic TRs as initially suggested by Turbine but as follows:

    -Each Epic TR can only be undertaken at Lvl 28, and requires the bonding of a completed Epic Destiny, the bonding of this destiny results in an epic past life for the corresponding destiny, every epic TR also results in 1 additional fate point being awarded + you get to keep the fate points from your bonded destinies.
    Now to make this worthwhile and to make it alluring for players to want to Epic TR then they need to make the epic past lives for your bonded destinies worth the cost, note that I also think that each epic destiny past life can only be achieved once.

    Here is my idea of some epic destiny past lives that would make this sort of system worthwhile:

    Shadowdancer: Grants Evasion and 1d6 sneak attack die.

    Legendary Dreadnaught: Grants +3 Tactics and the permanent feat "Cleave"

    Fury of the Wild: Grants 50HP, +2 Melee Damage and 10 Stacking SR that stacks with all other sources.

    Shiradi Champion: Grants +4 Range Damage, 7% chance on Ranged and Offensive spells for 5d20 Force Damage.

    Grandmaster of Flowers: Grants Unarmed die step increased by 1 and Improved Elemental stances (+1,2,3 or 4 bonus to main stance stat dependent on Tier of stance)

    Unyielding Sentinel: Grants 10% Heal Amp, 10% Fortification and 5AC.

    Exalted Angel: Grants +50 positive and light spell power, +50sp and Aura of Menace (as per fvs PRE that is toggleable)

    Magister: Grants +2 to all school DCs, +2 Spell Pen

    Draconic: Grants +1 to Evo and Conjuration DCs, +100 SP and + 50 to all elemental Spell Powers

    Primal Avatar: Grants Rejuvenating Cocoon as an SLA, +20 Positive Spell Power and +2 to hit and damage when fighting unarmed, twf or in animal form.

    The Bard Destiny (forgot the name lol): Grants permanent glitter of fame, 10% duration on all songs, 50 Sonic Spell power and +1 enchant DC.

    I guess what Im trying to say is if you want us to lose our ED xp when we Epic TR then make it a decent trade off, I don't believe in losing 1 Tree and gaining a past life as it seems a little easy to me, I do believe in a fair trade off though.

    Also as per notes, first Epic TR also nets you +2 build points.
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  14. #54
    Community Member AlmGhandi's Avatar
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    I thank you for writing a so clearly understandable and well thought through proposal.
    I am sure that I could live with that...

    I am not sure that I could live with Turbine's proposal... because it has not been clearly defined yet. It would be nice if someone there could sit down and use the OP here as a template... so that we can see what Turbine is thinking... what we should be afraid about and so on.
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  15. #55
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoasterHops View Post
    Personally I would like it as follows:

    Heroic TRs remain as at present, using Heroic Hearts of wood. There is no resetting of Epic Destines.

    Epic TRs as initially suggested by Turbine but as follows:

    -Each Epic TR can only be undertaken at Lvl 28, and requires the bonding of a completed Epic Destiny, the bonding of this destiny results in an epic past life for the corresponding destiny, every epic TR also results in 1 additional fate point being awarded + you get to keep the fate points from your bonded destinies.
    Now to make this worthwhile and to make it alluring for players to want to Epic TR then they need to make the epic past lives for your bonded destinies worth the cost, note that I also think that each epic destiny past life can only be achieved once.

    Here is my idea of some epic destiny past lives that would make this sort of system worthwhile:

    Shadowdancer: Grants Evasion and 1d6 sneak attack die.

    Legendary Dreadnaught: Grants +3 Tactics and the permanent feat "Cleave"

    Fury of the Wild: Grants 50HP, +2 Melee Damage and 10 Stacking SR that stacks with all other sources.

    Shiradi Champion: Grants +4 Range Damage, 7% chance on Ranged and Offensive spells for 5d20 Force Damage.

    Grandmaster of Flowers: Grants Unarmed die step increased by 1 and Improved Elemental stances (+1,2,3 or 4 bonus to main stance stat dependent on Tier of stance)

    Unyielding Sentinel: Grants 10% Heal Amp, 10% Fortification and 5AC.

    Exalted Angel: Grants +50 positive and light spell power, +50sp and Aura of Menace (as per fvs PRE that is toggleable)

    Magister: Grants +2 to all school DCs, +2 Spell Pen

    Draconic: Grants +1 to Evo and Conjuration DCs, +100 SP and + 50 to all elemental Spell Powers

    Primal Avatar: Grants Rejuvenating Cocoon as an SLA, +20 Positive Spell Power and +2 to hit and damage when fighting unarmed, twf or in animal form.

    The Bard Destiny (forgot the name lol): Grants permanent glitter of fame, 10% duration on all songs, 50 Sonic Spell power and +1 enchant DC.

    I guess what Im trying to say is if you want us to lose our ED xp when we Epic TR then make it a decent trade off, I don't believe in losing 1 Tree and gaining a past life as it seems a little easy to me, I do believe in a fair trade off though.

    Also as per notes, first Epic TR also nets you +2 build points.
    Really? Evasion for everyone?

  16. #56
    Community Member KhellendrosUK's Avatar
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    I think this is spot with 1 important exception;

    Heroic TR should not be forced with Epic TR, i.e. a non-triple completionist should have the option to start at L20 (obviously without gaining a heroic PL) because there are some people out there who have not gained triple completionist but still feel that their heroic TRs are 'done' and having done that already should not be a punishment.

    Other than that, some great work there, thank you!

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    Really? Evasion for everyone?
    Well several things to consider:

    A: You can splash 2 classes to acquire evasion anyway.
    B: You can acquire evasion from two epic destines.
    C: Evasion still requires light or no armor.
    D: It still requires having capped shadowdancer and being willing to ditch most of your fate points and epic destiny xp.

    So no its not evasion for everyone, but it is evasion for those that want it, that are willing to sacrifice for it and grind for it, if Turbine want us to ditch the majority of our ED xp and fate points then it needs to be worthwhile or its a dead in the water system or game for that matter.
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  18. #58
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    /signed.. but unfortunately, just like Gezi Park and Erdogan.. They're going to do whatever they want that is the most profitable for the company. More than likely in favor of a Newer less deserving crowd.. one that thinks buying your way to a TR will make you a good player.
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  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by CoasterHops View Post
    Personally I would like it as follows:

    Heroic TRs remain as at present, using Heroic Hearts of wood. There is no resetting of Epic Destines.

    Epic TRs as initially suggested by Turbine but as follows:

    -Each Epic TR can only be undertaken at Lvl 28, and requires the bonding of a completed Epic Destiny, the bonding of this destiny results in an epic past life for the corresponding destiny, every epic TR also results in 1 additional fate point being awarded + you get to keep the fate points from your bonded destinies.
    Now to make this worthwhile and to make it alluring for players to want to Epic TR then they need to make the epic past lives for your bonded destinies worth the cost, note that I also think that each epic destiny past life can only be achieved once.

    Here is my idea of some epic destiny past lives that would make this sort of system worthwhile:

    Shadowdancer: Grants Evasion and 1d6 sneak attack die.

    Legendary Dreadnaught: Grants +3 Tactics and the permanent feat "Cleave"

    Fury of the Wild: Grants 50HP, +2 Melee Damage and 10 Stacking SR that stacks with all other sources.

    Shiradi Champion: Grants +4 Range Damage, 7% chance on Ranged and Offensive spells for 5d20 Force Damage.

    Grandmaster of Flowers: Grants Unarmed die step increased by 1 and Improved Elemental stances (+1,2,3 or 4 bonus to main stance stat dependent on Tier of stance)

    Unyielding Sentinel: Grants 10% Heal Amp, 10% Fortification and 5AC.

    Exalted Angel: Grants +50 positive and light spell power, +50sp and Aura of Menace (as per fvs PRE that is toggleable)

    Magister: Grants +2 to all school DCs, +2 Spell Pen

    Draconic: Grants +1 to Evo and Conjuration DCs, +100 SP and + 50 to all elemental Spell Powers

    Primal Avatar: Grants Rejuvenating Cocoon as an SLA, +20 Positive Spell Power and +2 to hit and damage when fighting unarmed, twf or in animal form.

    The Bard Destiny (forgot the name lol): Grants permanent glitter of fame, 10% duration on all songs, 50 Sonic Spell power and +1 enchant DC.

    I guess what Im trying to say is if you want us to lose our ED xp when we Epic TR then make it a decent trade off, I don't believe in losing 1 Tree and gaining a past life as it seems a little easy to me, I do believe in a fair trade off though.

    Also as per notes, first Epic TR also nets you +2 build points.
    That's a very ambitious proposal, very interesting. Some stuff seems a bit hyperpowered (not overpowered ;-)) but who knows, it's at least "epic".
    Regarding evasion, maybe an alternative could be some form of "minor" evasion (if you succeed in saving throw, you now take not 50% dmg but 25% dmg (where applicable))?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Recared View Post
    That's a very ambitious proposal, very interesting. Some stuff seems a bit hyperpowered (not overpowered ;-)) but who knows, it's at least "epic".
    Regarding evasion, maybe an alternative could be some form of "minor" evasion (if you succeed in saving throw, you now take not 50% dmg but 25% dmg (where applicable))?
    Yeah well I thought about maybe some sort of 20sec evasion clicky with a 1min cooldown, but yeah clickies, the general point Im trying to get across is that if Turbine go down the path they are intending they need to make this stuff worthwhile, what I have tried to do is make it so that there is quite a few ED PLs that could be used by quite a few classes.
    So the shadowdancer PL might not look great for rogues, so the first ED PL they might go for is the Fury of the Wild or Primal Avatar as they already have evasion, but a wizard might look at the evasion and toss up between going Magister or Shadowdancer etc.

    Ive tried to lay it out so there are definite choices to be made, I don't want us to get **** ED PLs for a huge loss in fate points and Destiny XP.
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