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  1. #21
    Community Member rjbutchko's Avatar
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    Default Just so I understand...

    Okay my main TOON (Yeah Sig I know how you love that term) Has all of her EDs at lvl 5 if not completely capped.

    Under your proposal one would completely cap out one or more destinies, Go to an NPC prior to reincarnation (or for simplicity's sake just go to Kruz,) and choose a feat. Upon TR the feat remains and the XP associated with it is reset to 0 leaving all other destinies and fate points intact.

    I like this a lot. One thought though:

    Perhaps EPIC TR should be a different system than HEROIC in that there would be no need to restart at level one if you already have all the past lives necessary for your final build. Or maybe the feat granted prior to Epic TR could be powerful enough be something of an easy button for heroic leveling. That might make completionist a bit easier. Granted, that would be a kick in the teeth to those who really worked hard at getting the completionist feat, but it would likely be a great incentive for folks who wouldnt ordinarily TR over and over to replay all the older content and extend the life of the game itself.
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  2. #22
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    how about.. when you epic tr you choose a caped destiny, this destiny you choose(the currently active one) will lose all it's progress but you gain the pl feat for this destiny...

  3. #23
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    I'm not a supporter of Fate points persisting between lives. It leaves no room for expansion in the new system - the cap for Fate points should be based on the number of EDs there are, not how many times you've run back up through the Epic system.

    Fate points will naturally persist (under the current Turbine proposal) for each Destiny you progressively bond, so by the time you've bonded all 11, you have the same total Fate points you do now, persistent through Reincarnations.

    Power creep is bad (mkay?) and allowing accrual of unlimited Fate points just opens the door to unbalanced Twist combinations and more power gap between first-life Epic players and Epic Completionists. The wider the power gap, the harder it is to balance content, and more players that get left out because they don't have quite enough PL feats or whatever to be powerful enough for L28 top-end content.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cableman View Post
    What if I already have all the Heroic Past Lives that I desire? For example, lets say I'm a melee character and I already did 3 lives of all the various melee options, would it not be a waste of my time to have to level a life that has no benefit in order to get an epic past life feat?
    It would require extra effort that you would not feel rewarded for, yes. But one of the objectives of the TR system from a game design standpoint is to incentivise players to re-play the full range of game content so I tried to preserve that. The addition of the option for a tripple completionist not to start at level 1 was an addition to try and have consideration for those could gain nothing, but I'll consider modifying that for those who have nothing they want from heroic TR though that would make the HR levels completely optional and to some extent bypasses the goal of moving players through the full range of content.

    All the huff in the other thread is about losing time spent leveling destinies. Isn't this the same?
    No, I felt like I'd been pretty clear that you only loose XP in a single destiny which you would re-earn easily while re-gaining your class levels. Perhaps I need to tweak the text a bit.
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  5. #25
    Community Member dlsidhe's Avatar
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    I like it overall, except for the triple completionist = Epic Reincarnate back to level 20. Let just a standard completionist do that.

    Also, I like the Epic Advantage idea from the Dev Plans, but don't want to trade in my ED XP. So, what if it stayed that you get 1 heroic rank per ED level gained on both Heroic Reincarnation and Epic Reincarnations (unless completionist), but don't lose the ED XP? If you have all EDs maxed, you start at level 12. The one you zero out for an Epic Reincarnation doesn't change this - it's calculated prior to the zeroing.
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  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by 350zguy View Post
    So how long before you have 3 twists and have 4 tier 5 ultimate abilities using this method?

    Should it be possible to twist in 3 tier 5 abilities if you get enough fate points?
    I'm pretty sure you can't twist tier 5 abilities under any circumstances by design. Its reserved for those with the Destiny Active.

    You could earn more fate points, but that will inevitably happen as Turbine adds in new destinies. when they added the druid destiny the max fate points you could earn increased as a result. I don't think restricting the max number you could have was part of Turbine's original design so I didn't worry about it here.

    I like the idea that capping a ED is more like capstone that you keep when you res, then a feat you get when you re-incarnate.
    Turbine's proposal also gives you a feat for the Epic Destiny you Bind, so that isn't any different. The key difference is Turbine's proposal wipes all but one Destinies XP, and mine only wipes a single Destinies XP.

    That last bubble of XP on the EDs is currently pointless.
    I find that I make my selections and could still be happy to get more destiny points to buy additional ability score bonuses or other goodies in the tree. I'm surprised you wouldn't find more benefit from more points to spend. but at any rate its not essential to this design, just a way to extend the range of the Destinies in the XP curve to keep play rewarding.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cableman View Post
    What if I already have all the Heroic Past Lives that I desire? For example, lets say I'm a melee character and I already did 3 lives of all the various melee options, would it not be a waste of my time to have to level a life that has no benefit in order to get an epic past life feat?

    All the huff in the other thread is about losing time spent leveling destinies. Isn't this the same?
    The benefit would be in gaining the Epic Destiny Past Life Feat. You have the option of TRing into an Iconic if you want to make the road a bit shorter, I expect at least one of them will have an Iconic Past Life Feat that suit a melee. The Iconic Past Life Feats will still stack 3x, so you could use them to become a 38 point build, gain up to 12 Iconic Past Life Feats, 11 Epic Destiny Past Life Feats and the new Epic Completionist Feat.

    Or not and just keep your character as it is, that's also an option.

  8. #28
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    Myabe I missed the whole reason behind this discussion --What is so broken about the current system that we need another, less friendly and more confusing system?
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigtrent View Post
    I promise it's not a trick. We don't do any advertising on our site and make no money on the podcast which has been going for many many years now. I don't track traffic to our site. We just wanted a safe place to keep the original proposal where we could ensure it was always available at the same URL.

    I just very much want to do my best to improve the TR system. I was inspired by those in my guild who have completed all or most of their epic destinies and would probably never use the system that Turbine proposed.
    Okay, taken at your word then.

  10. #30
    Community Member Cableman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    The benefit would be in gaining the Epic Destiny Past Life Feat. You have the option of TRing into an Iconic if you want to make the road a bit shorter, I expect at least one of them will have an Iconic Past Life Feat that suit a melee. The Iconic Past Life Feats will still stack 3x, so you could use them to become a 38 point build, gain up to 12 Iconic Past Life Feats, 11 Epic Destiny Past Life Feats and the new Epic Completionist Feat.

    Or not and just keep your character as it is, that's also an option.
    What I posted was a hypothetical possibility. I will continue to TR until I have 3 of every class, so right now 18 more lives I think. I really don't think there should be any easy road to epic completionist. I think you should be able to lock one at 28 if you choose to TR at 28, the rest are wiped and you start at level 1. You then start your journey again back to 28 and lock another destiny and if you choose to stay there, that is your choice, as well as it's your choice to not to TR either. No epic advantage, No to retaining your other maxed destinies, you keep them as you bind them and attain past life feats. This will only affect a small percentage of people, I know lots of people in game that still haven't hit 20, don't understand epic destinies nor twists (even prestige enhancements for that matter). The majority of players don't even read the forums.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by 350zguy View Post
    That last bubble of XP on the EDs is currently pointless.
    It is, currently it does nothing. In the new system, it'll be that last 480k to cap it out that will allow you to bind it.

    But I would like them to make it effectively a Level 6 for that destiny and count as a level towards your fate point, that way, each Destiny would be worth 2 full Fate Points instead of the strange 1.6666667 Fate Points we currently get.

    I'd also like to see each Epic Destiny Past Life feat award 1 Fate Point and Epic Completionist a further 2 Fate points, but we can park that discussion for another day.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by barecm View Post
    Myabe I missed the whole reason behind this discussion --What is so broken about the current system that we need another, less friendly and more confusing system?
    If you mean the current Heroic TR system, there's nothing wrong with it at all.

    If you mean what is wrong with the current proposals for the new Epic TR system, get yourself a stiff drink, make it a double and make yourself comfortable while you absorb 74 pages on the the thread that started all this: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-amp-Iconic-TR

  13. #33
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    Default nice proposal

    the Better Completionist part is my favorite,if things are going this way, i may move my lazy arse toward Completionist too!
    my main toon is only on second life and is melee based,never thought i can waste a Feat on completionst LOL,but if it's going to be a auto-granted feat then it will definitely worth the time

    and of course as a lazy butt as i am , loosing all ED XP and fate point in turbine Epic TR proposal is a sure way to make me skip Epic TR(I spent months and a fate point tome +2 to get the fate points!dont think i can survive another House Robar grinding LOL)
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  14. #34
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    If you mean the current Heroic TR system, there's nothing wrong with it at all.
    Yes, that. I am not really sure why Turbine is choosing to invest in a new TR system while the current Epic Destiny system is not 100%, the current enhancement system is not 100%, we have not had a large content update in months and months, the old Epic Loot is next to worthless, quest lines are not complete (Amarath Teleport has 3 destinations), guild decy system stinks... I am sure I am missing some things. If they really listened, they would jump on some of those. Particularly the enhancement system, Old Epic loot and guild decay (the three I see and hear most about on the boards and in game). Instead, they are choosing to revamp one of the systems that actually works well. I continue to stratch my head. I just don't this line of thinking at all...
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by barecm View Post
    Yes, that. I am not really sure why Turbine is choosing to invest in a new TR system while the current Epic Destiny system is not 100%, the current enhancement system is not 100%, we have not had a large content update in months and months, the old Epic Loot is next to worthless, quest lines are not complete (Amarath Teleport has 3 destinations), guild decy system stinks... I am sure I am missing some things. If they really listened, they would jump on some of those. Particularly the enhancement system, Old Epic loot and guild decay (the three I see and hear most about on the boards and in game). Instead, they are choosing to revamp one of the systems that actually works well. I continue to stratch my head. I just don't this line of thinking at all...
    Well, if it's done cleverly, it doesn't have to be a massive development effort to introduce the Epic TR system. Like the whole TR system itself, it's about maximising re-use of existing content while giving players a non-game-breaking incremental bump in power. To me this fits well with the whole setup of DDO where I don't think it would fit so well with other games. The reason I think it works so well here is that we have greater build diversity than any other MMO I can think of, so if you do it properly, then each new life can still be fresh. I've enjoyed my 40th life just as much as my first and just about every life has been different, with a couple of exceptions for "pet builds" that I couldn't help but return to - my Bardbarian being just one.

    So first up, I'd say that if Turbine take on board some of the suggestions that have been made, this shouldn't be a massive drain on development resource, leaving more resource available to work on some of the things you mention.

    The new enhancements we believe are coming with the Expansion. I have massive reservations about this as we've not seen the beta version after the alpha, and the alpha had some serious issues with it. But it'll allegedly be on Lamaland before the end of the month, so we won't have long to wait to get our next look.

    The new expansion is the large content update, and as far as I know, that's still on track for 19th August. It's also introducing Iconic Heroes which again are sort of of recycling existing classes and races, but adding something novel to each.

    I agree with you that we're not finished with the Eberron storylines yet. The three that spring to mind would be:
    1. The Archon side of the Devil Battlefield. We can see their glowing citadel floating in the distant skies from Amrath, about time we went there.
    2. Droaam launched a full-scale attack on the city. So far, our response has been .... you've been very naughty, don't try that again .... I'd like to see some payback inflicted on the Daughters of Sora Kell to ensure they don't just come back in greater numbers at a later date.
    3. The Sharn Syndicate were prevented from uniting the gangs in Stormreach, and nothing has been heard from Sharn since, with all of the subsequent events, it's difficult to believe they wouldn't try again, and maybe this time we need to track them back to the City of Towers.

    I've no doubt there are another dozen excellent storylines that can be developed.

    If delivered properly, the new enhancements, the expansion and Epic TRing can easily give the development people some much needed breathing space, and maybe we'll start to see major progress on some of the quality of life issues that we would still like to see.

    The sooner we can persuade Turbine to adopt Sig's proposed system, or some variation of it that addresses the concerns we've raised, the better for everyone.

  16. #36
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Sounds perfect assuming I read it right Sig....just to clarify though if I have two question

    First off say for sake of the question I have every single destiny maxed out at Lvl 25 and choose Epic Reincarnation: ShadowDancer when I hit level 20 (start at 1 unless I have triple past lives of everything) I will receive a free feat: ShadowDancer past life and than Shadowdancer will have 0 XP (but still be unlocked) but all my other Destinies will still be maxed out.

    Also would you mind clarifying that the Iconics don't start AT Lvl 15 but have enough XP to level to 15. It's different than Vet Status where you have to Lvl to leave the creation area so you could actually play an iconic character from Level 1 with friends and level as they do (actually sidenote: devs please allow Vet Status characters to work the same as Iconics currently do except you know Lvl 4 and 7)

    Thats it Awesome Idea Sig unfortunately I don't use twitter or facebook so I can't enter the constest but I'll throw it in my Signature here.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnubisPrime View Post
    I disagree. I think they do listen and look at what's feasible.

    Sig has some great ideas, and by Turbine proposing Epic TRs and asking for our input--it would follow that Turbine DOES want to listen.

    I'm pretty sure Turbine WANTS to listen but it's entirely possible that Warner Bros. rejects the idea. If you haven't noticed since WB took over there's been alot more "stream-lining" and "appealing to the masses" not that I really care as long as the multi-class system stays intact...actually I'm equally looking forward to and dreading the enhancements system update slotted for later this week (on Lammania I mean)

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    The new enhancements we believe are coming with the Expansion. I have massive reservations about this as we've not seen the beta version after the alpha, and the alpha had some serious issues with it. But it'll allegedly be on Lamaland before the end of the month, so we won't have long to wait to get our next look.
    We haven't seen it yet but it will be hitting Lammania this week

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    It's also introducing Iconic Heroes which again are sort of of recycling existing classes and races, but adding something novel to each.
    To clarify its not recycling Classes its recycling races for example as a Bladeforged you can be a Sorceror only your first lvl is decided as Paladin the special abilities come from the Race. One dev even mentioned something about LRing the first level out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    I agree with you that we're not finished with the Eberron storylines yet.
    Moving into Neverwinter was a Kneejerk reaction to the other DnD MMO...which FYI using NOTHING from DnD except the setting. MY hope is the devs will realize Neverwinter is not a threat and return to Eberron
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 06-18-2013 at 10:35 PM.
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  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjbutchko View Post
    Okay my main TOON (Yeah Sig I know how you love that term) Has all of her EDs at lvl 5 if not completely capped.
    I'm not so much the Toon hater that some of my fellow DDOcast folks are. I use it, especially when I'm thinking of how my character looks rather than how they play.

    Under your proposal one would completely cap out one or more destinies, Go to an NPC prior to reincarnation (or for simplicity's sake just go to Kruz,) and choose a feat. Upon TR the feat remains and the XP associated with it is reset to 0 leaving all other destinies and fate points intact.
    Hmmm, seems I still need to clear up my text a bit on this. The feat is granted for a maxed destiny, but the one that clears its XP is likely a different destiny, the one you will be "working on" in your next life and at the end you get a feat for that one.

    Heroic TR feats come at the beginning of your next life. In my proposal you get the Epic TR feats at the end of the current life. (aka prior to reincarnation rather than after) The Destiny reset comes essentially after you TR and that is the destiny you will get a feat for when you cap next time.

    Perhaps EPIC TR should be a different system than HEROIC in that there would be no need to restart at level one if you already have all the past lives necessary for your final build. Or maybe the feat granted prior to Epic TR could be powerful enough be something of an easy button for heroic leveling.
    Noted as second suggestion along these lines. Since this is supposed to be the Players Choice, I'm definitely open to modifying my proposal, not sure yet. Its a balance between the desire to move folks through lower level content to maximize content efficiency, and giving folks only the part of the game they want (in this case for those focused on epic content).

    Because Turbine was looking at lowering the overall TR XP costs, I'm still kind of on the fence on this. If TR lives don't take terribly long, its not that much burden to go from 1-20. But if its a boring slog, then its silly to make folks do it.

    Personally I like running 1 to cap more than grinding up at cap. I really like the experience of a character growing steadily and rapidly.
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  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by dlsidhe View Post
    I like it overall, except for the triple completionist = Epic Reincarnate back to level 20. Let just a standard completionist do that.

    Also, I like the Epic Advantage idea from the Dev Plans, but don't want to trade in my ED XP. So, what if it stayed that you get 1 heroic rank per ED level gained on both Heroic Reincarnation and Epic Reincarnations (unless completionist), but don't lose the ED XP? If you have all EDs maxed, you start at level 12. The one you zero out for an Epic Reincarnation doesn't change this - it's calculated prior to the zeroing.
    I think epic advantage was meant to be more of a compensation for loosing your ED XP rather than a way to start TR at higher ranks as a general practice. I'll take this post as another vote for greater control in not going back to level 1 if you don't want to.

    Thanks for the support and input!
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  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    Okay, taken at your word then.
    Thanks Borgre
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  20. #40
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    Once I thought about this for awhile, I found this to be an extremely good proposal! I especially like the points about making Heroic Completionist a passive, rather than selected feat, as well as the potential to gain one additional Fate Point each life.

    Quote Originally Posted by sigtrent View Post
    [*]There will be an NPC who you can speak to be awarded your past life feat. On your first epic life you may select any capped Epic Destiny as your Chosen Epic Destiny.[*]Upon Reincarnation you must select an Epic Destiny you currently have unlocked. You will lose all XP in this destiny upon when you are reborn but it remains unlocked. You must max out this destiny in your next life in order to receive your next past life feat. You do not lose any fate points for the lost XP and can in fact earn more when you gain XP in this destiny on your next life. Upon capping your epic level XP and the chosen Destiny you will receive the Epic Past Life Feat for the Chosen Epic Destiny.
    The only thing that I see possibly being a bit of an issue here would be the long time between when you make that decision, and when you have to pay for it. A lot can change during that time in DDO. I don't know that this is really a huge problem, but I know that I would be a bit frustrated if I decided that I wanted the Legendary Dreadnaught EPL. So I get the feat, play around with it a bit at cap. But then before I get around to even TRing, which is when I would be 'paying for' my Legendary Dreadnaught choice, a new Epic Destiny is added that has even more allure.

    Kind of a minor thing, not in the least bit game breaking, but just one of those things that kind of nibbled at the back of my mind and I thought I would mention.

    Quote Originally Posted by sigtrent View Post
    [*]Epic Destinies should maintain a progressive structure and add 4 maximum ED points to all destinies. Or possibly increading the XP needed for the Chosen destiny to make progression closer to epic level XP.
    So, if I am reading this right, you would be able to get 28 points to spend in the ED that you releveled? I am not too sure about this. It would be nice, certainly, but it seems like some EDs (Exaulted Angel comes to mind) were kind of set up with the intention that you could only have two of the T6 powers. Not sure how much of a problem it would really be, would probably take a bit of play testing to really know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    The chosen destiny idea would work but only if its XP requirements are drastically increased. I'm thinking of 5-6 million XP to cap the destiny again, maybe more.
    I certainly would not be opposed to this even, so long as the XP needed to recap the destiny is not greater than the XP needed for 20-28.
    Last edited by ForumAccess; 06-18-2013 at 11:48 PM.

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