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    Thumbs up Player's Choice Design: Support a better system for Epic Destiny True Reincarnation

    Player's Choice Design
    A True Reincarnation System Proposal for DDO

    By Sigfried Trent

    Introduction
    The new Epic TR proposal from Turbine had a lot good ideas, but includes a fatal flaw. The loss of Epic Destiny XP simply makes the system anything but attractive for many DDO players. Many of us imagined something better, myself included. Mulling it over in my mind, weighing the needs of developers and players alike, I feel like I've come up with an iron clad update to what Turbine Proposed. I’m calling it the Player’s Choice Design (PCD).

    I’d like to propose that the players of DDO rally together to support this plan and lobby for Turbine to adopt it. I don’t expect it will be everyone's favorite plan, but if we want to have an impact, speaking in one voice will be far more persuasive.

    If you like what you see, then you can join the cause by lobbying the Developers to adopt the PCD and let turbine prove to us it is truly powered by its fans!

    Quick Summary
    My proposal is very similar to Turbines initial offering but does not involve losing the majority of epic destiny XP you have earned. Instead, each life you choose a single destiny to work on, and reset only that destinies XP. There is a bit more to it, but that is the core of the idea.

    Design Objectives
    • Encourage players to enjoy the full range of DDO content
    • Allow a path for continuous improvement and experimentation for characters
    • Not loose any long term progress when true reincarnating


    Proposals for Each of the TR Types
    There are now three types of reincarnation.

    Lesser Reincarnation
    • Available at any level
    • You may reconfigure Ability Scores, Skills, Feats, and Enhancements.
    • Grants you a 32pt build if you were not already 32pts
    • Optional ability to reconfigure limited class levels
    • All tomes are preserved

    Heroic Reincarnation
    • Available at level 20 or above
    • Grants future lives a Stacking Past life feat based on class up to three times per class on reincarnation
    • Grants future lives access to selectable feats
    • Next live gets +2 build points, up to 36 maximum
    • Resets Character Level XP to 0 and lets you roll a new character
      • All tomes are preserved along with character name
      • Reincarnating into an Iconic Hero class sets XP to level 15

    • If you have one past life for each character class you are also granted the completionist feat giving you a stacking +2 bonus to all ability scores. (this does not take up a feat slot as it does currently)

    Epic Reincarnation
    • Available at current max level (28)
    • Requires 1 selected XP capped “Chosen Epic Destiny” (see below for details)
    • Grants an Epic Destiny feat based on “Chosen Epic Destiny” upon reaching cap
    • Grants benefits of Heroic Reincarnation on reincarnation
    • Max build points is 38
    • Resets Character Level XP to 0 and lets you roll a new character
      • All tomes are preserved along with character name
      • If a character has every Heroic Past live benefit available (triple completionist), they can start at level 20 when they do an Epic Reincarnation.
      • Reincarnating into an Iconic Hero class sets XP to level 15
      • All Fate points are preserved, as are all destiny unlocks
      • Resents XP for next life’s chosen Epic Destiny to 0 upon Reincarnation

    How The Chosen Destinies work
    • Epic Reincarnation is a little different in that it awards your Epic Destiny Past Life Feat upon capping your character rather than just after reincarnation.
    • There will be an NPC who you can speak to be awarded your past life feat. On your first epic life you may select any capped Epic Destiny as your Chosen Epic Destiny.
    • Upon Reincarnation you must select an Epic Destiny you currently have unlocked. You will lose all XP in this destiny upon when you are reborn but it remains unlocked. You must max out this destiny in your next life in order to receive your next past life feat. You do not lose any fate points for the lost XP and can in fact earn more when you gain XP in this destiny on your next life. Upon capping your epic level XP and the chosen Destiny you will receive the Epic Past Life Feat for the Chosen Epic Destiny.

    Further System modifications (optional)
    • There should be a single experience point track for all True Reincarnated characters rather than the two tier model.
    • Epic class levels should have a more flattened leveling structure and not increase on subsequent lives.
    • Epic Destinies should maintain a progressive structure and add 4 maximum ED points to all destinies. Or possibly increading the XP needed for the Chosen destiny to make progression closer to epic level XP.

    An example of the PCD in action!

    Gungathud is currently a level 28 Barbarian 18 Fighter 2 Epic 8 with 4 past lives: 2 barbarian and 2 monk. Gungathud currently has all 3 Epic destinies maxed out: Fury of the Wild, Legendary Dreadnaught, and Grandmaster of Flowers. He has 6 more unlocked with 4 levels in Shiradi Champion, 3 in Unyielding Sentinal, 2 in Primal Avatar, 1 in Shadowdancer, and 0 in Exalted Angel.

    He is hanging out in Stormreach on the day that Update 20 goes live. Because Gungathud is already capped, and has at least one capped destiny he is already entitled to an Epic Destiny Past Life feat. He goes to an Epic Destiny NPC to claim it. He can choose from Fury of the Wild, Legendary Dreadnaught or Grandmaster of Flowers. He chooses Fury of the Wild and gets the feat right then and there.

    After some reflection Gungathud thinks he would like to do an Epic TR so he can go up to a 38 point build, pick up a 3rd barbarian past life feat, and work towards getting another Epic Destiny past life feat. He heads over to the Epic Reincarnation NPC. He has to choose one of his unlocked destinies to work on in the next life. He likes the Legendary Dreadnaught Epic Destiny feat so he chooses that one.

    Gungathud goes through the process of Reincarnating. His Class XP is set to 0, His Legendary Dreadnaught Destiny XP is set to 0 and he re-rolls a 38pt character at level 1. He is granted his Barbarian Past life feat at this time. To get the Legendary Dreadnaught Destiny Feat he needs to get back to level 28 and cap out Legendary Dreadnaught. Then he can talk to the Epic Destiny NPC to claim that feat.

    My arguments for the Players Choice Design

    A True Reincarnation system should to two things:
    • Incentivize re-playing the full range of DDO’s content from level 1 to endgame.
    • Provide a slow but steady means of increasing a characters maximum potential.

    And there are two things it should not do:
    • Interfere with the planning and effort players have already invested in the Epic Destiny System
    • Require more effort than the process of leveling from 1 to cap in order to rebuild a character at least as strong as the one you had before reincarnating.

    Problems with the current Turbine proposal
    • The loss of Epic Destiny experience and fate points represents a huge loss of time for many players, not just the raw XP, but also time spent playing in destinies not suited to their character’s abilities.
    • Upon capping their next life, many characters would be significantly weaker than were in their previous life due to the loss of Epic Destinies and fate points.
    • The proposed Epic Advantage system would effectively skip lower level content which is contrary to one of the primary goals of the reincarnation system.

    Advantages of the Players Choice Design over the current proposal
    • Saving Player Investments: Players who have invested time and effort and even money into leveling epic destinies will not lose the fruits of that effort. They may lose XP in a single destiny of their choosing, but the process of leveling from 20 to cap will provide more than enough XP to re-train the destiny.
    • Creating Work Where it Makes Sense: Clearing the single destiny, which you must re-train to gain your Epic Past Life Feat, helps provide you with more something impactful to advance as you go from 20 to cap. Since you are reincarnating and likely in a different class, you can coordinate your target Heroic Class with the Epic Destiny you are working on. This should make for a more rewarding leveling experience.
    • Rewards in the Right Place and Time: The PCD rewards you for capping your character, something the game currently doesn’t do. If you are capped then you will get a taste of the new system right away and rewarded for your efforts so far. You can spend some time enjoying the full power of your new feat before starting your next life.
    • Includes All of DDO Content: It does not skip over any of DDO’s content (with the exception of Iconic Characters).
    • Better Completionist: The completionist reward is no longer something that requires a feat slot, forcing you to make a trade off to get the benefit of your significant efforts to achieve it.
    • Keeping it Simple: It isn't very complicated and likely requires a bit less engineering than the Turbine Proposal.

    How To Win a Shadowfell Conspiracy Expansion Key!
    1. Watch or Listen to DDOcast Episode 289!
    2. Read "Player's Choice Design: True Reincarnation System Proposal"
    3. Get the URL of this post, here's a short URL for you http://bit.ly/17idZaZ
    4. Share this link and your support for "Player's Choice Design for TR" on either your Blog, Twitter, Facebook, G+ or website
    5. Then send us an email at ddocast@gmail.com and include a link to a public place on the internet where you have declared your support for the "Player’s Choice Design for TR".
    6. We encourage a polite but enthusiastic tone!
    7. Sit back and wait! The winner will be chosen randomly as usual.
    Last edited by sigtrent; 06-19-2013 at 12:20 AM.
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  2. #2

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    Ahhh, typo in the headline for the no so win.
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  3. #3
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    The chosen destiny idea would work but only if its XP requirements are drastically increased. I'm thinking of 5-6 million XP to cap the destiny again, maybe more.

    Your idea of allowing completionists to start at lvl 20 after a TR seems unfair. This allows them to cap out in one or two months, while others have to work much longer for the same epic past lifes.

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    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    The chosen destiny idea would work but only if its XP requirements are drastically increased. I'm thinking of 5-6 million XP to cap the destiny again, maybe more.

    Your idea of allowing completionists to start at lvl 20 after a TR seems unfair. This allows them to cap out in one or two months, while others have to work much longer for the same epic past lifes.
    I agree. In the current system you can cap a destiny by the time you get to 25, 28 would have you cap probably 2 and a bit of a third.


    How about this;

    When you ETR you lose all destiny XP except for the one you bound. When you ETR again you lose all XP except from the one you bound in the past life and in the life you previously ETRd (so you get 2). On third ETR you keep 3, etc.

    Tomes of fate stay through ETR.

    Heroic TR (current TR) does not reset EDs.

  5. #5
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigtrent View Post
    Player's Choice Design
    A True Reincarnation System Proposal for DDO

    By Sigfried Trent

    (...)
    +1 fr the work on it and to summarize some of the better proposals from the form here. Personally, I am sceptical Turbine will listen to you or the petition, even if it would be their best interest. We will see on Lam what they have been up to, but I still fear for the worst.

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    I don't particularly like that you have to max out the ED you choose at the startt of your reincarnation to get a new past like feat.
    This allows for now change of mind. You'll be stuck with that choice up to lvl 28. This is a bad idea as not everyone really wants to plan ahead from lvl 1 to 28 + one speicific ED.
    What if you for some reason (like some nerfing or changes that happen in the meantime - as we know Turbine is really good at that) you eventually prefer to switch to another ED? Too bad, no past life feat? Or even too bad , no reincarnation again?

    Also, I think you missed that during Lesser Reincarnation Tomes should stay as well.

    The rest is ok with me.

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    Community Member Maatogaeoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    When you ETR you lose all destiny XP except for the one you bound. When you ETR again you lose all XP except from the one you bound in the past life and in the life you previously ETRd (so you get 2). On third ETR you keep 3, etc.

    Tomes of fate stay through ETR.

    Heroic TR (current TR) does not reset EDs.
    Isn't that exactly what Turbine already proposed except for the last line?

  9. #9
    Founder AnubisPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nestroy View Post
    +1 fr the work on it and to summarize some of the better proposals from the form here. Personally, I am sceptical Turbine will listen to you or the petition, even if it would be their best interest. We will see on Lam what they have been up to, but I still fear for the worst.
    I disagree. I think they do listen and look at what's feasible.

    Sig has some great ideas, and by Turbine proposing Epic TRs and asking for our input--it would follow that Turbine DOES want to listen.
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    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Last edited by BOgre; 06-18-2013 at 07:04 PM.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    The chosen destiny idea would work but only if its XP requirements are drastically increased. I'm thinking of 5-6 million XP to cap the destiny again, maybe more.
    That isn't my intent. Its true you can cap the destiny before you can cap your class levels. I suggested adding 4 more available points (probably at fairly high XP cost) to extend the XP it takes to cap a destiny but I still don't expect it to take the full level range. But its still going to give you something to chew on for at least the majority of the time you are in epic levels.

    Your idea of allowing completionists to start at lvl 20 after a TR seems unfair. This allows them to cap out in one or two months, while others have to work much longer for the same epic past lifes.
    Perhaps I should have been more specific. The intent is not for completionists to start at level 20 bug for those who have every possible benefit from TRing, which would be "triple" competitionists.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BansheeGirl View Post
    I don't particularly like that you have to max out the ED you choose at the startt of your reincarnation to get a new past like feat.
    This allows for now change of mind. You'll be stuck with that choice up to lvl 28. This is a bad idea as not everyone really wants to plan ahead from lvl 1 to 28 + one speicific ED.
    What if you for some reason (like some nerfing or changes that happen in the meantime - as we know Turbine is really good at that) you eventually prefer to switch to another ED? Too bad, no past life feat? Or even too bad , no reincarnation again?
    In my experience most people TRing have a goal in mind, a specific class past life they want and plan on obtaining. I imagine that would be true of ED TRing as well. I also wanted to insensitive leveling a destiny during your life journey as its just generally more fun to have something beneficial to work on while leveling. Its true that it is a bit more limiting than free form but it is I think mostly in keeping with current TR as past life is not exactly a spontaneous choice for most. (though I know some folks lesser TR multiple times at level 20 to qualify for a given TR feat)

    Also, I think you missed that during Lesser Reincarnation Tomes should stay as well.
    Thanks, I added that, I mostly included lesser just to carry the Turbine proposal to drop Greater Reincarnation from the line up and have lesser cover that.

    The rest is ok with me.
    Thanks
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  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    Bribing players to vote for your not-so-great proposal by offering an expansion code is kind of shady. I'd suggest we stick to the official thread for sharing ideas and criticisms instead. I'm sure your site gets enough traffic without this sneaky linkback trick.
    I promise it's not a trick. We don't do any advertising on our site and make no money on the podcast which has been going for many many years now. I don't track traffic to our site. We just wanted a safe place to keep the original proposal where we could ensure it was always available at the same URL.

    I just very much want to do my best to improve the TR system. I was inspired by those in my guild who have completed all or most of their epic destinies and would probably never use the system that Turbine proposed.
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    Better thought out then the official original proposal, and much more clearly presented.

    Not 100% sure I see why the destiny past life benefit is held until the next life rather then given upon reincarnation as in the heroic system.

    Also, with the xp needed to cap a destiny significantly less then that needed to go 20-28 I'm worried about grinding out levels with very little progress or reward just to tr again. If I re-cap my destiny by 24th level, those next 4 levels will feel more like siting in place then building through a TR.

    Look forward to your continued development of this plan and ongoing contribution from the community.

    Keep up the good work on DDOcast

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferial_Flumph View Post
    Better thought out then the official original proposal, and much more clearly presented.

    Not 100% sure I see why the destiny past life benefit is held until the next life rather then given upon reincarnation as in the heroic system.
    Thanks The benefit isn't exactly held, but because of how Heroic TR works it's easy to read it that way.

    In this proposal you actually get your past life feat for Epic Destiny before you TR instead of after like in Heroic. So you are rewarded at the end of your current life, rather than the beginning of your next life. That is why all first life (from an epic stand point) characters immediately get an epic destiny feat instead of having to TR first.

    To make things work you have to formally declare what destiny you choose. With heroic you sort of informally make that choice by planning what class levels you will take (but are only rewarded for them after you TR).

    Also, with the xp needed to cap a destiny significantly less then that needed to go 20-28 I'm worried about grinding out levels with very little progress or reward just to tr again. If I re-cap my destiny by 24th level, those next 4 levels will feel more like siting in place then building through a TR.
    Agreed. Though I just couldn't come up with a simple way to accomplish that. Its possible that by adjusting the XP requirements down on epic levels and up on the Chosen Epic Destiny... hmmm sometimes explaining something helps you hit a solution. Though on each life folks may want to branch out and train some non-primary destinies as well so I think if you made the two equal that has its own down sides.

    Look forward to your continued development of this plan and ongoing contribution from the community.
    Thanks, I do plan on making adjustments or small additions as folks suggest them and so long as they aren't contrary to my overall objectives. I think of myself more a curator and promoter of this than its author.
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  16. #16
    DDOCast & Hero Theris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigtrent View Post
    I promise it's not a trick. We don't do any advertising on our site and make no money on the podcast which has been going for many many years now. I don't track traffic to our site. We just wanted a safe place to keep the original proposal where we could ensure it was always available at the same URL.

    I just very much want to do my best to improve the TR system. I was inspired by those in my guild who have completed all or most of their epic destinies and would probably never use the system that Turbine proposed.
    OFF TOPIC: I think the last time I checked site stats was back in 2011. Haven't really checked it since. I hate advertising so I forbid it on ddocast.com. I first was paying for the website out of my own pocket, then Sig said that DDOcast listeners wanted to help, so we ran a really short "feed the kobolds" drive. Now the website and domain is paid for the next five years!

    BACK ON TOPIC: We just wanted to make sure that there were no more than two copies of the TR system proposal. Its easier to maintain the document over time (changes and updates will happen), plus with the video and MP3 will give people a chance to understand the PCD for TR proposal in a different way.

    Plus, I paid for the Shadowfell X-Pack code key myself...out of my goddamn pocket money. I wanted to give back to the listeners of DDOcast because they're super awesome. Sig just wanted to use a contest so the proposal gets more attention, and consequently gets vetted by the people who will be affected by it the most.

    So read Sig's proposal for the new TR system, maybe listen to what we have to say on the podcast (its optional). Then if you like it, help us out and share it. If you don't like it, that's fine too and maybe take a moment to tell us why. We'll take the responses and questions and share them on the next DDOcast episode, and Sig will most likely revise his proposal. If we get overwhelming interest, I'll put together a DDOcast Round Table Talk where we just yark about the whole TR thing for 1.5 hours or more.
    Last edited by Theris; 06-18-2013 at 05:09 PM. Reason: cause bad spelling makes me look like a herp derp
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    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    Great post and thoughts, clear and well presented. Thanks for taking the time to write this us.

    Upon Reincarnation you must select an Epic Destiny you currently have unlocked. You will lose all XP in this destiny upon when you are reborn but it remains unlocked. You must max out this destiny in your next life in order to receive your next past life feat. You do not lose any fate points for the lost XP and can in fact earn more when you gain XP in this destiny on your next life. Upon capping your epic level XP and the chosen Destiny you will receive the Epic Past Life Feat for the Chosen Epic Destiny.
    Some interesting ideas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Great post and thoughts, clear and well presented. Thanks for taking the time to write this us.


    Some interesting ideas.
    At some point in the near future, please clarify your original design. If I put what I feel is the best possible face on your proposal, I think it's a lot better than this proposal.

    What are your intentions on fate points? Piloto indicated that you were having difficulty preserving fate points from life to life. IMO this is a requirement. I ground the destinies I ground to get fate points, not destiny XP. If all of my XP is zeroed except in my bonded destiny, I can earn more fate points every life. Some adjustment will need to be made to allow me to use those fate points, either more twist slots or higher level twists. Fate points are a very important factor in this discussion and Turbine hasn't been clear.

    What are your plans regarding destiny unlocks? If any destiny I've ever unlocked stays available to me, I don't mind your plan at all. Run a couple of destiny levels to get the twists I want, then go back to my primary destiny or destinies. The alternate proposal seems to indicate that I'm stuck in one destiny for my entire epic TR. That's a big step backward from the current system.

    The current ED system is pretty limited, and I don't really see how to improve my characters to scale to level 28 content. I think that if properly implemented, the Turbine plan could be a great path. The problem is that the original message was terrible. From my perspective it emphasized the absolute worst part; the zeroing out of ED XP. It didn't really explain the benefits of the idea. Every heroic TR has accepted losing all of their XP to TR. Probably heroic TRs shouldn't affect ED XP, but there's no reason an epic TR shouldn't. What an epic TR should do is make it worthwhile to give up all that XP. I think it's very possible you can do that, but it's a tall order.

  19. #19
    Community Member Cableman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigtrent View Post


      • If a character has every Heroic Past live benefit available (triple completionist), they can start at level 20 when they do an Epic Reincarnation.


    What if I already have all the Heroic Past Lives that I desire? For example, lets say I'm a melee character and I already did 3 lives of all the various melee options, would it not be a waste of my time to have to level a life that has no benefit in order to get an epic past life feat?

    All the huff in the other thread is about losing time spent leveling destinies. Isn't this the same?
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    So how long before you have 3 twists and have 4 tier 5 ultimate abilities using this method?

    Should it be possible to twist in 3 tier 5 abilities if you get enough fate points?

    I like the idea that capping a ED is more like capstone that you keep when you res, then a feat you get when you re-incarnate.

    That last bubble of XP on the EDs is currently pointless.

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