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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosbeak07 View Post
    Say I have a 28 pt build, If I took the Epic TR option as my 1st TR choice, would my character automatically become a 38 pt build? Or would I have to have TR'd at least 2 times before?
    You would have to TR two more times.

    It's funky but basically you get +2 build points on any TR, its just that Heroic and Epic have a different maximum value you are allowed to achieve. (and of course there is a bonus 4pt jump if you are a 28pt build to start with)


    First life 28 or 32 depending on various factors.
    Second life is always 34 (epic or heroic)
    Third life is always 36 (epic or heroic)
    Fourth life+ can be 38 if and only if you did an epic TR.

    At least that was my understanding of the Turbine proposal and I didn't want to change that part.
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  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantumFX View Post
    The one thing that this proposal is missing is that, when we have to make the jump from level 20 to level 28, we will have to earn enough XP to cap out 3 destinies. (5,200,000XP total if the pattern holds.) Why not include an option to clear-out/re-level an entire sphere?

    Maybe that could be an “Epic Lesser Reincarnation” option? You start back at level 20 and don't get the heroic feat.
    To quote some numbers from another post

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    At the moment, the XP to cap at 28 would be:
    Code:
    Level	 Total XP	 XP/Level	Increase
    21	  300,000	  300,000	
    22	  750,000	  450,000	150,000
    23	1,350,000	  600,000	150,000
    24	2,100,000	  750,000	150,000
    25	3,000,000	  900,000	150,000
    26	4,050,000	1,050,000	150,000
    27	5,250,000	1,200,000	150,000
    28	6,600,000	1,350,000	150,000
    I'm guessing that their smoothing of the Epic XP curve would be more like:
    Code:
    Level	 Total XP	 XP/Level	Increase
    21	  300,000	  300,000	
    22	  675,000	  375,000	75,000
    23	1,125,000	  450,000	75,000
    24	1,650,000	  525,000	75,000
    25	2,250,000	  600,000	75,000
    26	2,925,000	  675,000	75,000
    27	3,675,000	  750,000	75,000
    28	4,500,000	  825,000	75,000
    Who knows, might even be less. But if they keep ED XP as it is, this still means you will automatically cap a new destiny at 1,980,000 somewhere in Level 24.
    So we will be able to cap out either 2 or 3 destinies depending where they move the bar from 6,600,000 XP to cap at 28. Clearing out multiple destinies at once would only be a benefit if you wanted to gain the Epic Destiny Past Life Feat from multiple destines per Epic TR, and I can't see that happening.

    One Epic TR = one Epic Destiny Past Life Feat, can't imagine it being any other way.

  3. #83
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    I for one like the changes that turbine is proposing to the TR system. They make perfect sense and will create a better system. If you have all your EDs capped, I mean that sucks to lose them but that's the nature of the game. I mean it's not like they took away your game experience, you were still playing the game the whole time. If you chose to farm rusted blades hundreds of times that was a choice, not all choices work out.

  4. #84
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffyanne View Post
    I for one like the changes that turbine is proposing to the TR system. They make perfect sense and will create a better system. If you have all your EDs capped, I mean that sucks to lose them but that's the nature of the game. I mean it's not like they took away your game experience, you were still playing the game the whole time. If you chose to farm rusted blades hundreds of times that was a choice, not all choices work out.
    That's unacceptable, though. Thousands of players put countless hours into maxing their destinies, and they are supposed to accept "Well, sorry about your luck but the game changes!" No, there is no reason to remove ED exp. It's creating grind just for the sake of grind-- they don't have much new content lined up so instead they are trying to force players into re-running old stuff ad nauseum.

    And what do you mean "took away your game experience"? That's exactly what they are doing. They are taking away the hard work and time invested in maxing these destinies. Yes, we played the game the whole time, but for what, if we're being stripped of all our work?

  5. #85
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    One thing that just really doesn't sit well with me... You aren't awarding "Epic Past Lives", you're awarding "Epic Destiny Capstones", conceptually.

    For completionists, uber-completionists, or just people that are happy with their current past lives (i.e. Caster builds that don't want them all but have all they want), the system basically makes them repeat content they've already done exactly the same. A Past life enhances your journey back to cap, these capstones are just grinding through the same thing.

    That doesn't sound fun to me.


    The fact that destiny xp and level xp isn't tied to a 1:1 ratio further makes this feel disconnected. At level 1 you erase the XP, you get back to 20, you max out the destiny in level 24, and go do something else and at level 28 you get a reward? That's a whole lot of time between 'payment' and 'delivery'.

  6. #86
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    I like most aspects of this design. Good job!

    The only thing that doesn't make sense to me is getting an epic past life feat before you even reincarnate. Why make things confusing? Make the past lives work the same way in heroic as in epic. I really like the idea of reseting ED xp in one tree only, and allowing for increased fate points over time.

  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Great post and thoughts, clear and well presented. Thanks for taking the time to write this us.


    Some interesting ideas.
    Thank you for taking the time to read this, we appreciate the hope you give us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    Woot!?!?!

    VOTE NO TO PROPOSAL ONE!

  8. #88
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    I have to say I find it a bit tacky to bribe people to agree with your idea.
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  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    That's unacceptable, though. Thousands of players put countless hours into maxing their destinies, and they are supposed to accept "Well, sorry about your luck but the game changes!" No, there is no reason to remove ED exp.
    And it is only the few thousand that have max EDs that are complaining about the changes. The tens of thousands of other players will benefit from and like the changes it seems. If you get to keep your fate points it seems the only complaint is you have to do each ED again which you probably will do anyway for the stacking feat bonuses. Again the game changes, if you are a comletionist you have to redo the class and your old class, this simply extends that scenario.

  10. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    For completionists, uber-completionists, or just people that are happy with their current past lives (i.e. Caster builds that don't want them all but have all they want), the system basically makes them repeat content they've already done exactly the same. A Past life enhances your journey back to cap, these capstones are just grinding through the same thing.

    That doesn't sound fun to me.
    I agree that if you already did all the Heroics you want, then this system, and Turbine's is painful in that you have to do it again and that part of the XP journey is not rewarding to you. You could use the Iconic's to shorten the trip of course. Its also going to depend on how they re-jigger the XP tracks. I didn't get much into that in my proposal but it can have a big impact.

    But I'm just not sure I want to tackle that yet. There are those who are happy to see all ED XP wiped out and do this system, others who would rather just level a single destiny but stay at cap. I wanted to shoot for the original spirit of the TR which was you go from level 1 to cap and get a bonus for playing the full game again.

    The fact that destiny xp and level xp isn't tied to a 1:1 ratio further makes this feel disconnected. At level 1 you erase the XP, you get back to 20, you max out the destiny in level 24, and go do something else and at level 28 you get a reward? That's a whole lot of time between 'payment' and 'delivery'.
    I agree, but it is the only current distinctions we have at epic to award feats based on currently. I tried to address it a bit in my proposal by giving more points per destiny and thus more XP, but that's just a bandaid suggestion. On the other hand I don't think they were ever meant to be a 1:1 and something you would jump around leveling as you moved to cap, then really grind em out while at cap. And it worked OK for that, but makes less sense in a TR scheme.
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  11. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by Satyriasys View Post
    I have to say I find it a bit tacky to bribe people to agree with your idea.
    Understood. DDOCast has a history of giving away stuff to listeners of the show. And we often use it as an opportunity to promote the show, though not always. Sometimes we ask for DDO Jokes, sometimes ideas for the show, sometimes we ask folks to let others know about the show.

    My mission was to take what I though was a good idea and get it in front of as many eyeballs as I could. I really have nothing to gain from doing so except perhaps ego at having made a difference in the game. But if I'm making a positive difference, its hard to see the harm in that.

    I don't even have a vested interest character wise. I don't have any characters with more than 4 destinies unlocked. Most only have experience in their initial destiny. We don't make any money from DDOCast. We did a fund drive once in its 6 year history and raise about 500 bucks which we spent on the show hosting and prizes to give away over the years.

    So I don't see it as being a bribe so much as a thank you. But none the less I try to do things well. Marketing is a key part of any campaign.
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  12. #92
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigtrent View Post
    Understood. DDOCast has a history of giving away stuff to listeners of the show. And we often use it as an opportunity to promote the show, though not always. Sometimes we ask for DDO Jokes, sometimes ideas for the show, sometimes we ask folks to let others know about the show.

    My mission was to take what I though was a good idea and get it in front of as many eyeballs as I could. I really have nothing to gain from doing so except perhaps ego at having made a difference in the game. But if I'm making a positive difference, its hard to see the harm in that.

    I don't even have a vested interest character wise. I don't have any characters with more than 4 destinies unlocked. Most only have experience in their initial destiny. We don't make any money from DDOCast. We did a fund drive once in its 6 year history and raise about 500 bucks which we spent on the show hosting and prizes to give away over the years.

    So I don't see it as being a bribe so much as a thank you. But none the less I try to do things well. Marketing is a key part of any campaign.
    I am a fan of the show and enjoy your contests but offering keys for the support of a game system can give inaccurate portrayal of consensus for the idea even if it isn't a good one.

    I don't know how much impact the popularity of an idea has on Turbine's design decision but I would hate to see them implement an idea because they falsely believe it is popular ( and not just people trying to get a free key. ) Suggestions should have to stand on merit alone.
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  13. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffyanne View Post
    And it is only the few thousand that have max EDs that are complaining about the changes. The tens of thousands of other players will benefit from and like the changes it seems.
    But those few thousand are arguably the ones who play the most, spend the most money, and are really passionate and vocal about the game. It seems to me foolish not to take their desires into account, especially if it has little or no impact on anyone else.

    If you get to keep your fate points it seems the only complaint is you have to do each ED again which you probably will do anyway for the stacking feat bonuses.
    It isn't clear from turbines proposals that there will be stacking ED feats. They mentioned stacking Heroic ones specifically and didn't for Epics so it would seem the epics are one time only past life feats.

    And fate points are not preserved currently in the proposal (to my understanding). They have expressed they might like to but there is a technical problem that may make it impossible (relatively speaking) to keep while zeroing the XP they are based on.

    The real problem here is you can TR and when you are done have a weaker character than you started with. That is not true of heroic TRing. The incentive is to make your character stronger, if you go through the process at a net loss, then its not attractive.

    My proposal makes it equally costly to TR for all players, has the same benefits as Turbine's proposal, but doesn't excessively punish the most active players in the game. Its hard to see what you would object to in that.
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  14. #94
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    Another thing that I see in all the Turbine and player suggestions that worries me...

    Everyone's designing Epic TR as a finite system. With Heroic TR, after 39(!!!) lives it's a complete character respec (except name and gender). Epic TR, after 11 lives, it's unavailable. No more "Epic Advantage". Invariably, the game will change. Someone's Flavor of the Month Build will be nerfed. Manyshot may not always be king. Something will change that will make a Penultimate Completionist want to TR again. And then? Will Heroic TR be the only viable mechanic?


    I'm not sure if they're building 3 Reincarnation systems, or one unified one with 3 stipulations. I mean, can I Epic TR an Iconic or is Iconic Reincarnation a separate system/heart to perform? They've been presenting them as 3 systems. They're talking about adding a new heart to earn and/or buy. What's truer than True? Wouldn't it be easier just to have 3 dialog options at Kruz? Instead of Typing in your name as validation, type in "I want to epic reincarnate." or "I want to heroic reincarnate." This also serves to protect people that think they qualify for an ETR when they don't (they only have 20 destiny points to get to level 5, not the 24 to get near cap)


    I'm still not convinced that the whole "Epic Advantage! We're gunna take away your ECKSPEEEE!!!!!" isn't a smoke screen to keep down the complaints about Iconics needing to TR at 28 and basically being 4 classes a completionist has already done. I'm reading into the statement "Include Iconics in the TR cycle" to mean that they'll be a requirement for completionist. For the completionists out there, 4 lives without the feat they've invested heavily in, playing classes they've already done, to absolute cap, is kind of a raw deal.

    And the PDK fighter Iconic seems weird... To-hit/damage with Str or Cha? Fighters favoring charisma? Did they design it as a paladin and then realized they already had one. "Ooops! Well, most pallies take at least a level of fighter for Tower shield prof anyway... So a PDK Pallie 19/Fighter 1 can be a build for the vets."
    Last edited by Systern; 06-20-2013 at 02:31 PM.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigtrent View Post
    You would have to TR two more times.

    It's funky but basically you get +2 build points on any TR, its just that Heroic and Epic have a different maximum value you are allowed to achieve. (and of course there is a bonus 4pt jump if you are a 28pt build to start with)


    First life 28 or 32 depending on various factors.
    Second life is always 34 (epic or heroic)
    Third life is always 36 (epic or heroic)
    Fourth life+ can be 38 if and only if you did an epic TR.

    At least that was my understanding of the Turbine proposal and I didn't want to change that part.
    Thanks for the clarification.

    Simply for argument, this does create a gap between potential new players an established players. Will new players be OK, knowning that they will have to cap a character 4 times just to get to the same point build level of a veteran player? I'm not saying I want people to be able to short-cut the TR system, but the potential gap between veteran and new players will need to be addressed. Maybe that is what Iconics will be for? But new players should not feel like they need 4 past lives (they don't) to participate in high level content.
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  16. #96
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    Default Please don't take what I have earned away from me.

    Sig,

    I like the sentiment behind what you are proposing, but, I still think that your proposal falls short on one key element:

    "Resets XP for next life’s chosen Epic Destiny to 0 upon Reincarnation"

    This is the most contentious aspect being currently proposed. Granted, Turbine's initial outline made it clear that all ED exp would be cleared on reincarnation, except for a character's single, chosen destiny. You suggest that a character lose only the exp in a chosen destiny. However, it does not change the fact that in order for a character to get the Epic Destiny feat for each of the destinies, he/she has to start over and earn the exp for each destiny. This is where I think most people take umbrage with what is currently on the table.

    I, like many, have invested months worth of time to TR multiple characters. I currently have one completionist as several characters with three to four past lives. Not only have I invested time, but, I have invested money to expedite the process for my completionist. With what is currenly being proposed, the time I spent to complete every Epic Destiny, has been a waste, if I intend to try to take advantage of any benefits for capping EDs. The time I have invested in my characters is equity that I have added over time, to make my characters better and more enjoyable. What is being offered is something that will strip away the equity I have earned and invested money to build. No matter how one slices it, it is really bad form on behalf of Turbine. The pessimist in me sees this as a means of enticing those of us who bought all the Otto's boxes, to buy more and more of the things in order to TR repeatedly, all over again, and lock every destiny. I do not mind spending money on the game, but, I do mind when the gains from my financial investment are negated. I also mind it when the time I have invested is made worthless.

    Take for example, completionists: What happens when a new class is introduced to the game? Currently, completionist characters lose the benefits of the completionist feat, until they TR two more times to earn the past life for the new class. If I, as a completionist, with all EDs capped, chose not to TR prior to the introduction of the new class, because I did not want my ED experience wiped away, will I now have to bite the bullet and lose my investment in EDs in order to maintain the benefits of being a completionist? Without knowing the answer to this question, I do not intend to TR any of my characters, because I do not want to waste my time.

    I want to believe that this was an oversight on behalf of the developers. If it is, then I would hope that Turbine implements the new ED system in a way that automatically grants a lock to every ED that a character has capped. Anything less than that is insufficient, because anything less is tantamount to destroying the equity that we players have established in our characters. In my opinion, this is Turbine's chance to demonstrate the respect it has for the fans and players of DDO. I really hope you players take this into consideration as well.
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  17. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    Everyone's designing Epic TR as a finite system. With Heroic TR, after 39(!!!) lives it's a complete character respec (except name and gender). Epic TR, after 11 lives, it's unavailable. No more "Epic Advantage". Invariably, the game will change. Someone's Flavor of the Month Build will be nerfed. Manyshot may not always be king. Something will change that will make a Penultimate Completionist want to TR again. And then? Will Heroic TR be the only viable mechanic.
    I suspect you could always Heroic TR if you want to, just to re-configure even if you are not going to get any more stacking goodies for it. I think that's probably pretty rare, but it could happen. Generally LR is there for that purpose more that TR is. I would say that Epic TR doesn't have as many options unless they make them stacking like they do with Heroic.

    Personally I'm not a guy who TRs a lot myself. I have one character I pretty much TR the moment he gets to 20 and the rest are all first lifers, even my "main". Though I could see possibly TRing under the Epic system with one or two. Generally I just don't find the benefit all that significant unless you are super dedicated to the process, and I simply don't play that much on any one character.

    I'm not sure if they're building 3 Reincarnation systems, or one unified one with 3 stipulations. I mean, can I Epic TR an Iconic or is Iconic Reincarnation a separate system/heart to perform?
    I'm not sure what Turbine's intent was. I decided for mine just to treat Iconics like any other class but they start at 15 when they TR. I didn't see anything different in Turbine's except they called ti a special kind of TR. Seemed weird to me so I simplified.

    Wouldn't it be easier just to have 3 dialog options at Kruz? Instead of Typing in your name as validation, type in "I want to epic reincarnate." or "I want to heroic reincarnate." This also serves to protect people that think they qualify for an ETR when they don't (they only have 20 destiny points to get to level 5, not the 24 to get near cap)
    Yes, that is how I would handle it. That or have a separate NPC for Epic Reincarnation.

    I'm still not convinced that the whole "Epic Advantage! We're gunna take away your ECKSPEEEE!!!!!" isn't a smoke screen to keep down the complaints about Iconics needing to TR at 28 and basically being 4 classes a completionist has already done.
    Its not good business sense to **** people off to try and prevent them from being ****ed off. A good smoke screen would be offering something awesome that distracts from something not awesome. Completionist has seen two classes added and each time they have to grind those out to get it back. That's just the nature of the beat with completionost and its really more a badge of honor with some perks than something that makes your character super-powered.

    Since I only know a couple folks that have done it, I don't have a great sense of how they feel about new classes. But its been part of that system since the beginning.

    And the PDK fighter Iconic seems weird... To-hit/damage with Str or Cha? Fighters favoring charisma? Did they design it as a paladin and then realized they already had one. "Ooops! Well, most pallies take at least a level of fighter for Tower shield prof anyway... So a PDK Pallie 19/Fighter 1 can be a build for the vets."
    Not sure but its likely based on the PnP version of PDK to some degree. I really like that the iconics don't force you to do the whole character one way, but do give you a fixed starting point that is a bit unique. I used the Bladeforged to make a Sorcerer and there are a fair number of good builds for it as artificer and other things. They are weird, but I do rather like them.
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  18. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by tharveysinjin View Post
    Sig,

    I like the sentiment behind what you are proposing, but, I still think that your proposal falls short on one key element:

    "Resets XP for next life’s chosen Epic Destiny to 0 upon Reincarnation"

    This is the most contentious aspect being currently proposed. Granted, Turbine's initial outline made it clear that all ED exp would be cleared on reincarnation, except for a character's single, chosen destiny. You suggest that a character lose only the exp in a chosen destiny. However, it does not change the fact that in order for a character to get the Epic Destiny feat for each of the destinies, he/she has to start over and earn the exp for each destiny. This is where I think most people take umbrage with what is currently on the table.
    I don't really see it. To Epic TR, you will need to level from 1 to cap (28).

    Once you hit level 20, you will start earning XP that can both level you and be spent on an ED. It takes till about level 24 to cap an ED, so every time you epic TR, you will earn enough XP to cap about 2 destinies. So you can't help but cap the ED unless you for some strange reason decide you don't want to get another epic destiny feat. (which would be pretty strange behavior) So it costs you no extra XP at all, its just like re-gaining your enhancements as you level up, it pretty much happens without any extra effort.

    AKA the think my system takes away, you will pretty much automatically get back through re-leveling. In turbine's , if you have all 11 destinies, well that is way more than you could re-level just getting back to cap. You would have to cap, then do extra work to get back what you lost only to loose most of it again. With my system, unless you make counter productive choices, you will always end up with at least as many destinies leveled as you started with, likely more.
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  19. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by Satyriasys View Post
    I don't know how much impact the popularity of an idea has on Turbine's design decision but I would hate to see them implement an idea because they falsely believe it is popular ( and not just people trying to get a free key. ) Suggestions should have to stand on merit alone.
    I get you, though I can only say I'm more the Neutral Good type than Lawful Good. I don't mind a couple expedient short cuts if the objective is worth while.
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  20. #100

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