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  1. #1
    Community Member Shaude's Avatar
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    Default need a nonmana sponge build for static

    currently running a horc fighter thf dps lvl 7
    problem is i have little(pots) survivability or help other than dps. running with a clr, bard, wizzy, and ranger at the moment. if someone cant show up things are a bit stressed as im a manasponge mostly and take away cc abilities from others as they buff or heal me. most of the group is fairly new to ddo. rules are no twiking, minimal AH, no tr's and no ddo store(tomes).

    looking for a build with some other benefits and still good melee dps/tanking. i have all classes and races and 32 point just not to good at builds. i dont mind multiclassing would like to stray away from full or mostly monk only b/c its way to much/many button smashing, i dont mind some 5-6 keys is ok, but i know with monk if u forget finishers and/or some strikes dps suffers. i mostly play sorc, clr, but have taken all but druid, fighter, barb, fvs, cap. have had most to lvl 12 so i dont have a firm grasp on melee always thought grap sword and swing till dead lol, so not the case some strategy is needed in builds and i just dont have it.

    mostly looking for melee dps with some survivability anything else added would be a bonus some thoughts i had was a druid melee or pally/fighter. but most of the forum i try to look up is 404 unavailable and possibly out of date or massive tomes and gear.


    clr heals and cc
    bard does traps,heals, buffs, melee (thf) true 6th man type build
    ranger is AA/ twf
    wizzy is cc and buffs

    thx for looking
    Cannith Javarsee, Zolst, Shaude Argonnessen Tagz

  2. #2
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Another option for you is to preserve your THF Horc and make some adjustments.

    One of the nice things about being a fighter is it is probably one of the most flexible classes due to it's many feats.

    Options you can look into to help reduce incoming damage
    1. Trip/Improved Trip - This does can take a single target out of hitting you reducing incoming damage
    2. Stun - Another single target not attacking you, with the bonus of it taking more damage while it is stunned.

    Next possible suggestion would be taking Dwarven Axes or Bastard Sword prof. and use a Shield. This will synergize with your THF style and also add AC/PRR during the Heroic levels.

    Also learning when to block can reduce sting and spit type attacks secondary damage.

  3. #3
    Community Member Shaude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    Another option for you is to preserve your THF Horc and make some adjustments.

    One of the nice things about being a fighter is it is probably one of the most flexible classes due to it's many feats.

    Options you can look into to help reduce incoming damage
    1. Trip/Improved Trip - This does can take a single target out of hitting you reducing incoming damage
    2. Stun - Another single target not attacking you, with the bonus of it taking more damage while it is stunned.

    Next possible suggestion would be taking Dwarven Axes or Bastard Sword prof. and use a Shield. This will synergize with your THF style and also add AC/PRR during the Heroic levels.

    Also learning when to block can reduce sting and spit type attacks secondary damage.
    the block will help i will remember that thx. as for the daxes or b sword have thought about it and going defender...just not sure how much dps i will lose. not much 5 for pa and very little from weapon d12 vs d10 right? would a 2 tier pally defender and 1 tier kensia ftr to lvl 8 for special weapon be an viable option?

    have trip dont have int for improved
    stun could be useful

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    tag 
    Level 20 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
    (8 Fighter \ 12 Paladin) 
    Hit Points: 404
    Spell Points: 160 
    BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
    Fortitude: 22
    Reflex: 10
    Will: 10
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             17                    23
    Dexterity            10                    10
    Constitution         16                    18
    Intelligence         10                    10
    Wisdom               11                    11
    Charisma             12                    12
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
    Balance               1                     5
    Bluff                 1                     2
    Concentration         3                    16
    Diplomacy             1                     2
    Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
    Haggle                1                     1
    Heal                  0                     0
    Hide                  0                     0
    Intimidate            1                    24
    Jump                  5                    11
    Listen                0                     0
    Move Silently         0                     0
    Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
    Perform               n/a                   n/a
    Repair                0                     0
    Search                0                     2
    Spot                  0                     0
    Swim                  5                     9
    Tumble                1                     3
    Use Magic Device      n/a                   n/a
    
    Level 1 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 2 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
    
    
    Level 3 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Cleave
    
    
    Level 4 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 5 (Fighter)
    
    
    Level 6 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Shield Mastery
    Feat: (Selected) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 7 (Fighter)
    
    
    Level 8 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Shield Mastery
    
    
    Level 9 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave
    
    
    Level 10 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 11 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 12 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
    
    
    Level 13 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 14 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 15 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Power Critical
    
    
    Level 16 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 17 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 18 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    
    
    Level 19 (Fighter)
    
    
    Level 20 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
    Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
    Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
    Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
    Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
    Enhancement: Dwarven Armored Agility I
    Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I
    Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
    Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage II
    Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
    Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II
    Enhancement: Kensei Dwarven Waraxe Mastery I
    Enhancement: Fighter Armored Agility I
    Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
    Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
    Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
    Enhancement: Fighter Dwarven Waraxe Specialization I
    Enhancement: Paladin Item Defense I
    Enhancement: Paladin Item Defense II
    Enhancement: Paladin Item Defense III
    Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
    Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
    Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
    Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
    Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys II
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
    Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
    Enhancement: Paladin Devotion II
    Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
    Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
    Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
    Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
    Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III

    something like this maybe?
    Last edited by Shaude; 06-17-2013 at 02:56 PM. Reason: new
    Cannith Javarsee, Zolst, Shaude Argonnessen Tagz

  4. #4
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    I take it this build isn't working out for you?

    If you wanted to start over: it's a cliche, but an effective one - S&B pally tank. I prefer pal 18 / monk 2: DoS III w/Evasion. Good survivability, solid DPS, aggro magnet. Sounds like just what your party needs to me.

    Here's one example:
    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.16.01
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 25 Lawful Good Human Male
    (18 Paladin \ 2 Monk \ 5 Epic) 
    Hit Points: 413
    Spell Points: 260 
    BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
    Fortitude: 25
    Reflex: 18
    Will: 16
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 25)
    Strength             16                    25
    Dexterity            11                    13
    Constitution         14                    16
    Intelligence         11                    13
    Wisdom                8                     8
    Charisma             16                    18
    
    Tomes Used
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
    
    Level 1 (Monk)
    Feat: (Human Bonus) Cleave
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    
    
    Level 2 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 3 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery
    
    
    Level 4 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 5 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 6 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave
    
    
    Level 7 (Paladin)
    Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
    Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
    Enhancement: Human Versatility I
    Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
    Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
    Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
    Enhancement: Paladin Devotion II
    Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
    
    
    Level 8 (Monk)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Combat Expertise
    
    
    Level 9 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 10 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 11 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 12 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery
    
    
    Level 13 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 14 (Paladin)
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
    Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
    Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
    Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
    Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
    Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys II
    Enhancement: Paladin Devotion III
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
    
    
    Level 15 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword
    
    
    Level 16 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 17 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 18 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
    
    
    Level 19 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 20 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
    Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
    Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
    Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III
    Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys III
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Paladin Devotion IV
    Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III
    
    
    Level 21 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
    
    
    Level 22 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 23 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 24 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
    
    
    Level 25 (Paladin)
    The trickiest part of any pally tank build is figuring out the right mix of DPS & survivability in the feats & enhs. This build goes for 2/3 DPS 1/3 survivability in her feats. It's possible to shift that balance, though; e.g., dropping the THF chain to add Dodge, Quicken, & Maximize; or conversely, drop CE & rearrange the other feats to squeeze in Overwhelming Crit as one of the epic feats (which also means no need for INT 13).

  5. #5
    Community Member Shaude's Avatar
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    Default hmm

    not quite as the loss of some static members makes survivability quite difficult...just a little now but later will be quite a bit more. was going to kensia to 11 ish then respec to defender for 12 but some added self healing or something would be very helpful to me and party.


    never much cared for ce b/c until recently ac was all or nothing. if i drop int could leave some build points for more con. i m not sure but would require pajamas for armor or not to stay def centered? not that i care much for the armor its just the resistance rating might be more helpful than the little bit of a/c but lose of evasion would suck?
    Last edited by Shaude; 06-17-2013 at 03:37 PM.
    Cannith Javarsee, Zolst, Shaude Argonnessen Tagz

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaude View Post
    i m not sure but would require pajamas for armor or not to stay def centered? not that i care much for the armor its just the resistance rating might be more helpful than the little bit of a/c but lose of evasion would suck?
    To stay centered would require wearing no armor or use of a shield. To use evasion only requires light armor and no emcumbrance. A monk 2 splash rarely stays centered as the benefits are often overshadowed by the liabilities. unbongwah's example build is not meant to stay centered. Combined with DoS III, evasion makes for a powerful defensive, self-healing build.
    The newest computer can merely compound, at speed, the oldest problem in the relations between human beings, and in the end the communicator will be confronted with the old problem, of what to say and how to say it. - Edward R. Murrow (1964)

  7. #7
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaude View Post
    was going to kensia to 11 ish then respec to defender for 12 but some added self healing or something would be very helpful to me and party.
    Well, to me "a little bit of self-healing" on a tank is kinda like being "a little bit pregnant;" either you've got enough self-heals to save your bacon in a fight or you don't - and if not, why'd you bother adding any in the first place?
    never much cared for ce b/c until recently ac was all or nothing.
    The good news is AC is no longer all-or-nothing; the bad news is you hit a point of diminishing returns fairly quickly. So perversely, you end up in roughly the same spot as you did pre-MotU; either you invest a lot of effort in your AC or you don't. Plus c'est la change...

    One other perk to CE is you can pick up Imp CE from LD for +20 PRR, if & when you need to max out AC & PRR.
    i m not sure but would require pajamas for armor or not to stay def centered? not that i care much for the armor its just the resistance rating might be more helpful than the little bit of a/c but lose of evasion would suck?
    You do not need to wear robes to benefit from Evasion; light armor is good enough. Also, just because you have Evasion doesn't mean you can't voluntarily disable it; i.e., wear med or hvy armor when AC+PRR is more important, wear light armor when Evasion is more important. Depending on how much effort you're willing to expend on gearing up, you may want hvy armor for max defenses / tanking and lt armor for other situations.

  8. #8
    Community Member Shaude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Well, to me "a little bit of self-healing" on a tank is kinda like being "a little bit pregnant;" either you've got enough self-heals to save your bacon in a fight or you don't - and if not, why'd you bother adding any in the first place?
    very good point.

    The good news is AC is no longer all-or-nothing; the bad news is you hit a point of diminishing returns fairly quickly. So perversely, you end up in roughly the same spot as you did pre-MotU; either you invest a lot of effort in your AC or you don't. Plus c'est la change...

    One other perk to CE is you can pick up Imp CE from LD for +20 PRR, if & when you need to max out AC & PRR.

    You do not need to wear robes to benefit from Evasion; light armor is good enough. Also, just because you have Evasion doesn't mean you can't voluntarily disable it; i.e., wear med or hvy armor when AC+PRR is more important, wear light armor when Evasion is more important. Depending on how much effort you're willing to expend on gearing up, you may want hvy armor for max defenses / tanking and lt armor for other situations.
    good to know.
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  9. #9
    Community Member Shaude's Avatar
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    Post b sword or d axe

    is the b sword better than the d axe? was wondering on ur guys thoughts

    d10 19-20 x2 d10 20 x3


    guess its the same thing as great sword vs great axe?

    or more named items for b sword?
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  10. #10
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    For a S&B pally tank, b.sword is usually better, thanks to the larger crit range and its synergies with Smite Evil & Divine Sacrifice. See Junts's (oldie but goodie) pally guide, in particular this post. Although Axe of Famine is a nice mid-teen tanking weapon for the higher base dmg, Incite +15%, and occasional Life Devouring proc.

    Things get more complicated in epics once you factor in EDs etc. My hunch is a Duergar Waraxe + Headman's Chop + Anvil of Thunder is better DPS than a comparable b.sword version; but that presumes you're using LD as your primary ED, whereas US is considered better for tanking, IIUC. eFang used to be the best b.sword and it's still pretty good for ML:20, IMHO; but I guess a drow b.sword or Nightmare is better for endgame.

  11. #11
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    If saving your current horc wasn't an issue, you could try a very similar build to what you have now but with a Half Elf and grab the cleric dilly. Heal scrolls by mid-level and a couple human improved recovery enhancements and the ability to wand heal would be better than just potions.

    Of course the trade-off is all those nice horc combat/THF enhancements and strength. Although you do get access to the human adaptibility enh for some strength.

  12. #12
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    . . . Half Elf and grab the cleric dilly. Heal scrolls by mid-level and a couple human improved recovery enhancements and the ability to wand heal would be better than just potions.
    That's true, but I find LoH to be more foolproof for a tank than trying to Heal-scroll yourself in the middle of a fight, esp. w/out Concentration. Plus you have to put 5 pts into WIS to pick up cleric dilly - no more feat-swapping after tomes - which is otherwise a dump stat on ftrs & pallies.

    Another option would be to take my pal 18 / monk 2 build, switch to HE, and take the FvS dilly. You lose the extra human feat and can only hit 85% chance w/Heal scrolls (vs. 95% w/cleric dilly); but you keep LoH & CSW, pick up Concentration as a class skill, and can use Heal scrolls (most of the time) without having to squander pts in WIS, while still getting 20% racial heal amp.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    That's true, but I find LoH to be more foolproof for a tank than trying to Heal-scroll yourself in the middle of a fight, esp. w/out Concentration.
    [...]
    Another option would be to take my pal 18 / monk 2 build [...] keep LoH & CSW, pick up Concentration as a class skill
    Concentration is a class skill for pallies.

  14. #14
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Concentration is a class skill for pallies.
    Right, but I think Fedora was talking about a pure ftr tank w/HE cleric dilly; that build wouldn't have Concentration as a class skill. So even if it maxed out Concentration as a cross-class skill, it'd have a hard time popping off Heal scrolls mid-fight. Which was part of why I was advocating switching to pally.

    If that wasn't what Fedora was talking about, though, then nvm.

  15. #15
    Community Member Shaude's Avatar
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    Another option would be to take my pal 18 / monk 2 build, switch to HE, and take the FvS dilly. You lose the extra human feat and can only hit 85% chance w/Heal scrolls (vs. 95% w/cleric dilly); but you keep LoH & CSW, pick up Concentration as a class skill, and can use Heal scrolls (most of the time) without having to squander pts in WIS, while still getting 20% racial heal amp.[/QUOTE]


    having a decent chance for Heal scroll would be a great addition, for a loss of feat and skill point might be worth it.
    Last edited by Shaude; 06-19-2013 at 06:00 PM.

  16. #16
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    If that wasn't what Fedora was talking about, though, then nvm.
    Sort of.

    I agree your pally/monk would be better self-haling as you describe. I offered up the fighter w/cleric as a way to build a very similar character as his current fighter, with the obvious racial differences, but with some decent self-healing. I believe his current fighter is built toward dps, not tank? Fighters get lots of feats, I wonder if he could fit quicken into the mix. Or does that not work with scrolls?
    Last edited by Fedora1; 06-19-2013 at 08:55 PM.

  17. #17
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    I believe the OP is using this build I posted (or something similar) as part of a static group. Works fine as long as the healer's present; but OP PMed me to say he was looking for a build which can keep itself alive when the healer isn't around. And his static group has a no-hirelings rule, so that's not an option either.

    And before someone chimes in with "just use Silver Flame potions!" bear in mind this is a twink-free first-life static group. It's going to take them quite a while to farm up 400 SF Favor and OP needs a build which can survive long enough to get to that point.

  18. #18
    Community Member Shaude's Avatar
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    Post

    Wanted to take some time and thank everyone for their input. I am currently lvling the h-elf 18 p/2 m. Its working well a bit more dps then i expected and was a bit unsure how well/often evasion would work and it has proven to be quite often which is awesome. i am thinking i may miss the extra feat at higher lvls but still think for survivability it is the better way to go. i may just stay with the light armor as switching to and fro takes a bit.

    again thx everyone
    Cannith Javarsee, Zolst, Shaude Argonnessen Tagz

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