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  1. #1
    Community Member MarcusCleardawn's Avatar
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    Default Ask players why they aren't playing the epic content the way you want

    I could be off base, but the growing consensus is the motivation behind the terribad wipe your Epic Destiny TR proposed changes was that players weren't playing the stuff at the cap enough because TR was available. I personally think this is an incorrect perception.

    If Turbine were to ask me why I don't play stuff at the cap and TR I would reply:

    1. I prefer the heroic stuff for several reasons among these are, in many quests the difficulty scaling is out of whack for my current level of skill, equipment etc. that is to say, Epic Normal is a boring cake walk, Epic Elite is basically impossible or so time consuming that I just don't want to do it, and more often than not Epic Hard misses the mark in either direction.

    2. I hate Drow Priestesses, the ability to drain something that I can't even see or in some instances even get to is a pain. Couple that with chain comet fall, command, self healing etc.

    3. Leveling off destinies is a pain. Being compelled to level off destinies because you want to TR from a caster to melee for a change of pace is annoying.

    4. My expectation that the grind for the "good gear" in the current crop of Epic level quests will quickly be supplanted by the forthcoming new quests seem pointless.

    5. I like to play DC based casters, which you basically can't in 20+ content.

    6. My expectation that Past Life Feats are a safer investment, kinda like how leveling up Epic Destinies was until the recent announcement.

    7. Fatigue. Quite frankly by the time I've run up 4.3 million I'm mostly if not entirely burned out on that play style. Which is why I like to TR into an entirely different one.

    If you wanted me to spend more time at the cap, I would suggest in order:

    1. Reduce the stupidity of the grind that is 18-20. Quest experience in this level should be at least double what it is now.

    2. Make DC based casting relevant in such content.


    Very little of my decision to TR has anything to do with Epic Destinies, Epic Levels, or Epic Gear. Most of my decision has to do with preferring heroic to Epic Content, the 18-20 stupid grind, and the fact that even with multiple caster past lives I still can't seem to make DC casting work in Epic Content.

  2. #2
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    This isn't a terrible idea, perhaps an official survey on this topic would be a good idea rather than executive producers making ridiculous assumptions as to why people don't want to play their lame excuse for an end-game.

  3. #3
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    This isn't a terrible idea, perhaps an official survey on this topic would be a good idea rather than executive producers making ridiculous assumptions as to why people don't want to play their lame excuse for an end-game.
    It does seem a bit odd that people that don't even play the game make decisions based on assumptions about how and why actual players do things they do.

    I'm not certain any sort of survey would accomplish much. Turbine has some employees that have some great ideas on the direction the game could go, but for whatever reason, some brilliant and amazingly popular ideas are excluded from the design process. We don't want new systems as much as we want new content. They have information on what players want at their fingertips, but there is some insane desire to push new systems on players that really have such a small interest in these things relative to expanded content. Give us more to play instead of changing the way we play it.
    Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen

  4. #4
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    Give us more to play instead of changing the way we play it.
    .

    End-game sucks in DDO for a few reasons:

    1. Raiding sucks. Only two raids worth running since the loot-inflation of MoTU hit. The vibrant raiding pre-MoTU was awesome.

    2. Above level 20 content is just different. DC casters go from being gods to gimps, AC doesn't work in elite, HP too high for sorc-nuking to be viable, tactics DC requirements are excessive, EE Raids are full of dumb mechanics. To get "challenge" fun was made a dump-stat. The DDO devs forgot this was a game. EN/EH is so easy for any competent player on a decent toon it's terminally boring, EE is too ******** for many to find fun.

    3. ED grind is the stupidest bucket of un-fun ever conceived. Playing in an off-destiny just plain sucks. People like to feel powerful and useful (except for paladins since they can be neither) and not gimping their way through FoTW on a wizard. This leads to fast XP farming being the best way to get this hated grind over with and since it's been a year most of us have done this already on the toons we care about.


    And those are the three reasons the end-game of DDO is fail. Address that devs if you want people to actually play your end-game.

    1. Raids are run for loot . . . loot needs to be worth pursuing. The current culture of the DDO devs have made loot disposable and all the old stuff is not worth running. The loot in FoT is fail, we run it for comms. Hell, if above level 20 raids dropped Heroic comms that alone might be worth it.

    We also need s loot-reason to run "challenging" content or it won't get run. EE LOB is pointless, there needs to be a level 24 upgrade to the weapons that only drops in EE and it can't be a BS 1% drop. EE CiTW was run frequently when it dropped 2 coms 100% of the time . . . EH FoT means it's NEVER RUN EVER any more. EE CiTW needs to drop FULLY-UPGRADED weapons.

    The Classic Devil raids need epic options with loot upgrades. The Chronoscope loot is meh and complete niche right now, have that raid on elite drop Heroic comms.

    2. Don't add challenge in EE the stupidest way possible. mobs hit too hard, DC requirements cannot be reached, drop-rates need to be much better than they are. There needs to be a sorc option that isn't Shiradi. EE MoTU stuff was fine, you went off the deep-end post U16.

    3. Either put shears back in the store or allow us to level up and ED while being in another ED. I'm sorry but working on magister on a fighter just sucks and it not fun at all. Going back to the Waterworks to ensure the Kobolds still hate us is by far preferable to that stupid grind.

  5. #5
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    .

    End-game sucks in DDO for a few reasons:

    1. Raiding sucks. Only two raids worth running since the loot-inflation of MoTU hit. The vibrant raiding pre-MoTU was awesome.

    2. Above level 20 content is just different. DC casters go from being gods to gimps, AC doesn't work in elite, HP too high for sorc-nuking to be viable, tactics DC requirements are excessive, EE Raids are full of dumb mechanics. To get "challenge" fun was made a dump-stat. The DDO devs forgot this was a game. EN/EH is so easy for any competent player on a decent toon it's terminally boring, EE is too ******** for many to find fun.

    3. ED grind is the stupidest bucket of un-fun ever conceived. Playing in an off-destiny just plain sucks. People like to feel powerful and useful (except for paladins since they can be neither) and not gimping their way through FoTW on a wizard. This leads to fast XP farming being the best way to get this hated grind over with and since it's been a year most of us have done this already on the toons we care about.


    And those are the three reasons the end-game of DDO is fail. Address that devs if you want people to actually play your end-game.

    1. Raids are run for loot . . . loot needs to be worth pursuing. The current culture of the DDO devs have made loot disposable and all the old stuff is not worth running. The loot in FoT is fail, we run it for comms. Hell, if above level 20 raids dropped Heroic comms that alone might be worth it.

    We also need s loot-reason to run "challenging" content or it won't get run. EE LOB is pointless, there needs to be a level 24 upgrade to the weapons that only drops in EE and it can't be a BS 1% drop. EE CiTW was run frequently when it dropped 2 coms 100% of the time . . . EH FoT means it's NEVER RUN EVER any more. EE CiTW needs to drop FULLY-UPGRADED weapons.

    The Classic Devil raids need epic options with loot upgrades. The Chronoscope loot is meh and complete niche right now, have that raid on elite drop Heroic comms.

    2. Don't add challenge in EE the stupidest way possible. mobs hit too hard, DC requirements cannot be reached, drop-rates need to be much better than they are. There needs to be a sorc option that isn't Shiradi. EE MoTU stuff was fine, you went off the deep-end post U16.

    3. Either put shears back in the store or allow us to level up and ED while being in another ED. I'm sorry but working on magister on a fighter just sucks and it not fun at all. Going back to the Waterworks to ensure the Kobolds still hate us is by far preferable to that stupid grind.
    I think you've touched on a few good points here. There are obviously some very quick fixes that would get old raids run more. Adding heroic coms to Chrono, EVoN and EDQ would be a good first step. 50% chance on norm. 100% chance on hard and a guaranteed drop + 50% chance for a second on elite. I would have upped the com drop rate in CitW the second that FoT hit, but that's just me. 1 on norm, 1.5 on hard, 2 on elite. Obviously more could be done for these raids and others, but this is a quick fix to get more people running them. This is about 10 minutes worth of dev time here unless I'm missing something.

    EH is too easy, EE is for a lack of a better term, silly compared to EH. It's not that it's necessarily too hard, but like you mentioned, the way you play the game changes to the point where the fun is sucked right out of it. Any DC based abilities have ridiculous requirements to the point that they aren't used. Mobs are hard because of their HP total more than their actual difficulty. AC degrades to a point of uselessness. It's like all the goals we've worked so hard to achieve become meaningless as the game is warped to be a different thing entirely.

    I'm not sure what to suggest about the destiny mess. Nobody likes leveling up an off destiny. I think the core problem is fate points. The only reason we level off destinies, besides the need to feel complete, is to get the fate points. I say instead of allowing xp gain in off destinies, examine the root of the problem and look at why players are encouraged to run off destinies and fix it from the inside out instead of applying what I see as a band-aid solution by allowing off destiny xp gain.
    Last edited by redspecter23; 06-17-2013 at 10:00 AM.
    Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen

  6. #6
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    EH is too easy, EE is for a lack of a better term, silly compared to EH.
    that's the best way to put it, it's not that tough once you learn to game the system.

  7. #7
    Community Member Dendrix's Avatar
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    Why bother killing Epic mobs in Faerun?

    there is no benefit for killing 100 mobs and then finishing the quest compared to killing 2 mobs and finishing the quest.

    Eberron Mobs have token fragments and scrolls for some occasional value.

  8. #8
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrix View Post
    Why bother killing Epic mobs in Faerun?

    there is no benefit for killing 100 mobs and then finishing the quest compared to killing 2 mobs and finishing the quest.

    Eberron Mobs have token fragments and scrolls for some occasional value.
    Lately, it seems the most compelling way the devs can think of to get us to kill trash is to put up barriers and force us to kill some before continuing. It's very linear, lazy design in my opinion. It does stop invis zergs to some extent but it's not fun and feels very tacked on in order to slow down progress and force some killing. Somewhat like an imposed instant red dungeon alert at specific points. It also puts a complete shutdown on any sort of sneaky tactics, making that an even less viable way to complete an objective. We are shown yet again that smashing things head on with swords and spells is the way they want us to do things.
    Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen

  9. #9
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    .

    End-game sucks in DDO for a few reasons:

    1. Raiding sucks. Only two raids worth running since the loot-inflation of MoTU hit. The vibrant raiding pre-MoTU was awesome.

    2. Above level 20 content is just different. DC casters go from being gods to gimps, AC doesn't work in elite, HP too high for sorc-nuking to be viable, tactics DC requirements are excessive, EE Raids are full of dumb mechanics. To get "challenge" fun was made a dump-stat. The DDO devs forgot this was a game. EN/EH is so easy for any competent player on a decent toon it's terminally boring, EE is too ******** for many to find fun.

    3. ED grind is the stupidest bucket of un-fun ever conceived. Playing in an off-destiny just plain sucks. People like to feel powerful and useful (except for paladins since they can be neither) and not gimping their way through FoTW on a wizard. This leads to fast XP farming being the best way to get this hated grind over with and since it's been a year most of us have done this already on the toons we care about.


    And those are the three reasons the end-game of DDO is fail. Address that devs if you want people to actually play your end-game.

    1. Raids are run for loot . . . loot needs to be worth pursuing. The current culture of the DDO devs have made loot disposable and all the old stuff is not worth running. The loot in FoT is fail, we run it for comms. Hell, if above level 20 raids dropped Heroic comms that alone might be worth it.

    We also need s loot-reason to run "challenging" content or it won't get run. EE LOB is pointless, there needs to be a level 24 upgrade to the weapons that only drops in EE and it can't be a BS 1% drop. EE CiTW was run frequently when it dropped 2 coms 100% of the time . . . EH FoT means it's NEVER RUN EVER any more. EE CiTW needs to drop FULLY-UPGRADED weapons.

    The Classic Devil raids need epic options with loot upgrades. The Chronoscope loot is meh and complete niche right now, have that raid on elite drop Heroic comms.

    2. Don't add challenge in EE the stupidest way possible. mobs hit too hard, DC requirements cannot be reached, drop-rates need to be much better than they are. There needs to be a sorc option that isn't Shiradi. EE MoTU stuff was fine, you went off the deep-end post U16.

    3. Either put shears back in the store or allow us to level up and ED while being in another ED. I'm sorry but working on magister on a fighter just sucks and it not fun at all. Going back to the Waterworks to ensure the Kobolds still hate us is by far preferable to that stupid grind.
    I'd agree with all the above, except that Heroic Commendations should be Epic Raid Tokens... Greater tokens of the Twelve, Bobs, thingamawhatsits. What ever you want to call them. The fact that Heroic Commendations are Raid tokens that aren't called Raid Tokens so that you can't use Raid Tokens is just rather dumb.


    Our perception is that Loot Drop rates are high when a pack first comes out, and then drops to near-zero... Instead, The cost in Raid tokens should be a little higher as the early adopter tax, and then drop over time to a baseline.

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