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  1. #21
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellyfish21 View Post
    Listen, I'm speaking for the people who are not elitists. Maybe I should have mentioned that earlier. Those who either purchased the game recently or becomes a free to play player just recently both are recommended to stay pure to their class. Are we lying to them: no. Then why is it that we don't take our own advice? It's because of the reflex saves, for one, just as you've mentioned. More deeply imbedded in the flaw, which I perceive, is the evasion flaw.
    I'm sorry but you're not making any sense, what exactly is your point? Saying plainly like you're taking to a 5 year old.

  2. #22
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellyfish21 View Post
    I think you're getting to my deeper feelings here: how does a bard do damage? A bow is pathetic for a bard. Sonic spell damage is just funny. A melee weapon is the most powerful damaging tool for a bard. How can a bard survive that way?
    My bard beats the **** out of things with an ESoS. With either master's blitz or FoTW his damage is respectable, up their with what you'll see in the Juggernaught youtube clips.

    How does he survive? Quicken and Maximize for heals, displaced all the time. I dance mobs, disable them with overwhelming force, and simply take spell damage on the chin like a pornstar takes . . . um . . . nevermind.

    Quote Originally Posted by jellyfish21 View Post
    Does someone who wants to take a melee cleric, one that has a recommended set progression at the character creation screen, want to stand toe to toe with a barbarian at their side (although this is rare, it still is a recommended, official, turbine cleric path). There are other classes, including a warrior, that suffers.
    huh? what's your point?

    Quote Originally Posted by jellyfish21 View Post
    I do not want to take paladin, rogue or monk with every one of my character builds.
    Then don't. You don't have to.

  3. #23
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jskinner937 View Post
    I am surprised you have been playing since beta and still don't get that it is not just having evasion, but having the reflex save to support it. Evsion does not good if you cannot make the save and on EE content, most cannot make the save. Improved evasion however makes a save less important. Really what you need to reconsider is building a toon that can make a reflex save and forget evasion. This makes 2 levels of pally more attractive for most builds save a 18w/2r or a 18/2m or r both with insightful reflexes.

    The other solution is killing or ranging casters within a mob 1st or using PLIS when you cannot avoid. In heroic elites, there has been a bug around for a while that has casters spamming certain spells (disintegrate for ex.) that are doing more damage and is not WAI technically, but it has been around for so long people have adapted.

    In the short, evasion is not necessary nor is any other help from devs. However, building toons for survivability are especially if you prefer not to wait for other to run content like myself.
    Another thing about EE content . . . the MELEE damage is worse than the spell damage. I've not found the lack of evasion to really matter as the spells aren't the most dangerous things to worry about.

  4. #24
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellyfish21 View Post
    Thank you, Enoach.

    I've been playing my level 13 cleric / 2 monk / 2 paladin. I am parting with people who have TR'ed. The player, which match with a low reflex save, will die continually unless I quicken a Protection from Elements. I see fighters, TR fighters with over 500 health, run away from a battle because I can't keep up healing with the large amount of AoE damage that they receive. In small spaces, my cleric goes toe-to-toe with an enemy, spaming AoE heals. I see it now, the negative responses about my cleric can't keep up. Is that because I needed a high reflex save and am only level 13 cleric? YES. The system is flawed, folks. Stop trying to protect something which is bad. Make suggestions to improve our game, as I have, suggesting new favor rewards.
    You need to stop running with such lousy players.

    Suggestion to improve the game: stop healing stupid players. let natural selection take it's course, if you're toon can't survive HEROIC content the problem exists between the keyboard and the chair. it's not the healer's fault.
    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 06-18-2013 at 10:05 AM.

  5. #25
    Community Member Superhanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    I've soloed every EE since MOTU on an evasionless sorcerer and even some raids.

    You need to play this game more before making such baseless wide sweeping conclusions.
    having read this i got to agree, although my main is a 2/18 monk cleric, it would still solo EEs just the same even with 1monk/19cleric and thus no evasion

    high reflex goes a long way even without evasion or even failing that just playing smart will go a long way
    Completionist clonk on argonnessen.

  6. #26
    Community Member Superhanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellyfish21 View Post
    Soloing with a character who both can heal themselves and have ranged focused damage does not need evasion. The replies above discounts a character using a weapon at toe-to-toe combat. I am 100% sure that the people who solo EE are not using toe-to-toe characters nor will ever do so. Building a character like that takes a lot of experience of which even I do not have. Having the evasion flaw prevents almost anyone from building such a character.

    a toe to toe character knows to trip or stun the right threats, i had a pure sword and board stalwart defender life, he soloed a few epic elites and could have done more but i tr'd out of it because it was mostly for the pastlife, a toe to toe character can easily blast through EE content solo, some use heal scrolls, some use silver flame pots some use both, many do not have evasion and they are fighters and barbarians.
    Completionist clonk on argonnessen.

  7. #27
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    I can only think of 1 or 2 heroic quests where evasion really makes that big of a difference. They are older quests, and developers have not designed content that has heavy reliance on evasion anymore.
    The Silver Legion - Guild Medieval
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellyfish21 View Post
    So, you agree that we need to multiclass rather than stay pure? Okay. My point is the flaw in this. I want to make pure builds. The evasion flaw perpetuates the lack of getting your level cap enhancement, for one, and many other large bonuses for, say, a pure sorcerer, fighter, cleric and all those classes with poor reflex saves.

    Listen, I'm speaking for the people who are not elitists. Maybe I should have mentioned that earlier. Those who either purchased the game recently or becomes a free to play player just recently both are recommended to stay pure to their class. Are we lying to them: no. Then why is it that we don't take our own advice? It's because of the reflex saves, for one, just as you've mentioned. More deeply imbedded in the flaw, which I perceive, is the evasion flaw.
    The reason most suggest to go pure class for noobs is because its much harder to bork a pure class build. This is good advice. It would also be good advice to tell a noob to run normal or hard quests where spell dmg is not near as unpleasant, until they get used to how to avoid them and farm items to mitigate dmg when unavoidable.

  9. #29
    Community Member dlsidhe's Avatar
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    Ah, I remember when I felt as the OP does.

    Now, alas, I find evasion painfully awesome, but it's not necessary. Crowd Control can do the same thing. Instakills can neutralize a caster before they bring the pain. Evasion - on a rogue or a dex-monk (or a wis-monk in water stance) - is beastly. Evasion on a paladin/paladin splash is awesome. The classic 18/2 wiz with insightful reflexes? Great.

    However, if a FotW Barb has killed everything before it can react and has 1000+hp to absorb the damage with? "Evasion" is spelled "big bladed thingy and bigger strapping thews and biceps." A blitzing fighter in heavy armor with ridiculous PRR and crowd control tactical DCs? "Evasion" is spelled "planeforged plate and +10 stun/trip" A turtled-up FvS Evoker dropping Divine Wraths point-blank for 1000pt light damage crits with 800pt AoE heals, each of which ramps up the Divine Ascendance counter leading to a self-resurrection if things go south? "Evasion" is spelled "effectively immortal."

    I love evasion, though, because I'm not skilled enough to dodge things consistently. However, my main toon doesn't have evasion, because while it's nice, it's not necessary.
    Thelanis - Dragons of the Shire
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  10. #30
    Community Member Thumbed_Servant's Avatar
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    I have read, although not posted to, the forums since 2010. In that time, I've seen many posters post complaints. The posts concerning the game being too hard and needing solution X so that all can play the hardest levels....

    Well, it has difficulty settings. If Epic Elite (EE) is too hard for you, play down. Enjoy the game on Hard, or even Normal, until you get the gear and or the player skill to play Epic Elite. If the game was designed that everyone could take on the challenge of EE on their first attempt on the very first life of their very first toon, the game would be without challenge and dull. Elite and most especially Epic Elite are supposed to be the pinnacle of challenge within the game necessitating the best character build and some pretty good gear.

    As to the complaints sometimes given that some parts of the game are too hard to solo on elite....see above, and...IT'S a Mass Multi Online game. It's not Dungeons and Dragons solo adventures. If you can't solo something...make some friends, try with a party. Maybe, say, get a friend with an evasion toon to help you with those tough spots ( anyone else have sad memories of elite Enter the Kobold end fight?).

    Please don't ask for the game to be nerfed...ask for advice on getting your character geared or respec'd so that you may tackle the challenge that is frustrating you.
    Last edited by Thumbed_Servant; 08-29-2013 at 08:00 PM.
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  11. #31
    Community Member jellyfish21's Avatar
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    Why do I hear many people who TR'ed say, "Finding a party at level 18 is easier than finding one at level 19; so, I hold my level and progress right past level 19 and on to 20." We discuss it. Comparing adventure packs, elite Reign of Madness, elite Reaver's Refuge and the elite Devil's of Shavarath are all too intense. What I'm suggesting is in hopes that people will be drawn to these quests more than in the past.

    Everyone who replied here were focused on epic elite. I guess that you all are the wrong crowd.

    So, as far as gameplay, there needs to be a fix so the higher heroic content may be enjoyed by free to play gamers in order to sell these adventure packs. I am their cleric. I party with F2P gamers who want more content. Suggesting these adventure packs to my friends who play heroic would go more smooth if they were rewarded (with favor) things like an evasion feature, a true pen and paper DMG dwarven stance feature or even a programed, True, quickened feature (casting two spells simultaneously).

    I am their cleric. I'm very good at it. They need help, ask me and I offer it. I post here to further help them. I am not here to help the EE crowd: (A physician spends time with his patients.)

    Amosava

  12. #32
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellyfish21 View Post
    Why do I hear many people who TR'ed say, "Finding a party at level 18 is easier than finding one at level 19; so, I hold my level and progress right past level 19 and on to 20." We discuss it. Comparing adventure packs, elite Reign of Madness, elite Reaver's Refuge and the elite Devil's of Shavarath are all too intense. What I'm suggesting is in hopes that people will be drawn to these quests more than in the past.

    To be quite frank . . . if you can't cut it in elite you're not ready for elite. There are three other difficulty settings.

    Quote Originally Posted by jellyfish21 View Post
    Everyone who replied here were focused on epic elite. I guess that you all are the wrong crowd.
    No we're just surprised somebody complaining about Heroic Elite being too hard. This one caught us off guard.

  13. #33
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellyfish21 View Post
    Why do I hear many people who TR'ed say, "Finding a party at level 18 is easier than finding one at level 19; so, I hold my level and progress right past level 19 and on to 20." We discuss it. Comparing adventure packs, elite Reign of Madness, elite Reaver's Refuge and the elite Devil's of Shavarath are all too intense. What I'm suggesting is in hopes that people will be drawn to these quests more than in the past.
    Except the reasons for it have nothing to do with difficulty but with xp, shavarath is pretty bad xp, so is cannith. Reavers is a pretty good farm but it requires more from a party than just zerg so it's a little harder to get a group for it outside of static tr trains. In general though I farm the **** out of monastery and sometimes kobold because it's good xp. IQ also has good xp if zerged. XP is the problem not the casters and not the difficulty.
    Everyone who replied here were focused on epic elite. I guess that you all are the wrong crowd.
    We thought you meant ee because the only somewhat difficult fights in he are the end fight of etk and the end fight of in the flesh, and both of those have been done many times at level, you just need a coordinated group and a plan.
    So, as far as gameplay, there needs to be a fix so the higher heroic content may be enjoyed by free to play gamers in order to sell these adventure packs. I am their cleric. I party with F2P gamers who want more content. Suggesting these adventure packs to my friends who play heroic would go more smooth if they were rewarded (with favor) things like an evasion feature, a true pen and paper DMG dwarven stance feature or even a programed, True, quickened feature (casting two spells simultaneously).
    Completely overpowered and non needed features. Yes there are harder quests when you're just starting out, but the main problem when starting out is that most the time players don't have the twitch skills to avoid damage, and are usually lower on gear, and potentially have far worse builds than they should. All these are fixed with time and learning, that's also why there are lower difficulties. New players don't need a streak, and at high levels even many tr's drop elite streak for hard streaks because the speed of completing the quests goes up and allows better xp/min.
    I am their cleric. I'm very good at it. They need help, ask me and I offer it. I post here to further help them. I am not here to help the EE crowd: (A physician spends time with his patients.)

    Amosava
    Actually I think your posts hurt them. If you give them a bunch of op abilities their skills will never increase. It's pandering to the lowest denominator rather than trying to boost them up and teach them so that they improve.

  14. #34
    Community Member Dhalgren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Except the reasons for it have nothing to do with difficulty but with xp, shavarath is pretty bad xp, so is cannith. Reavers is a pretty good farm but it requires more from a party than just zerg so it's a little harder to get a group for it outside of static tr trains. In general though I farm the **** out of monastery and sometimes kobold because it's good xp. IQ also has good xp if zerged. XP is the problem not the casters and not the difficulty.

    We thought you meant ee because the only somewhat difficult fights in he are the end fight of etk and the end fight of in the flesh, and both of those have been done many times at level, you just need a coordinated group and a plan.

    Completely overpowered and non needed features. Yes there are harder quests when you're just starting out, but the main problem when starting out is that most the time players don't have the twitch skills to avoid damage, and are usually lower on gear, and potentially have far worse builds than they should. All these are fixed with time and learning, that's also why there are lower difficulties. New players don't need a streak, and at high levels even many tr's drop elite streak for hard streaks because the speed of completing the quests goes up and allows better xp/min.

    Actually I think your posts hurt them. If you give them a bunch of op abilities their skills will never increase. It's pandering to the lowest denominator rather than trying to boost them up and teach them so that they improve.
    I was going to write a bunch of stuff but this pretty much covers it. So instead of rehashing it, I'll just go with a "what he said".
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  15. #35
    Community Member Thumbed_Servant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellyfish21 View Post
    Why do I hear many people who TR'ed say, "Finding a party at level 18 is easier than finding one at level 19; so, I hold my level and progress right past level 19 and on to 20." We discuss it. Comparing adventure packs, elite Reign of Madness, elite Reaver's Refuge and the elite Devil's of Shavarath are all too intense. What I'm suggesting is in hopes that people will be drawn to these quests more than in the past.

    Everyone who replied here were focused on epic elite. I guess that you all are the wrong crowd.

    So, as far as gameplay, there needs to be a fix so the higher heroic content may be enjoyed by free to play gamers in order to sell these adventure packs. I am their cleric. I party with F2P gamers who want more content. Suggesting these adventure packs to my friends who play heroic would go more smooth if they were rewarded (with favor) things like an evasion feature, a true pen and paper DMG dwarven stance feature or even a programed, True, quickened feature (casting two spells simultaneously).

    I am their cleric. I'm very good at it. They need help, ask me and I offer it. I post here to further help them. I am not here to help the EE crowd: (A physician spends time with his patients.)

    Amosava
    Hello Amosava,

    I'm glad to hear you enjoy playing the medic. Not enough people do, and contrary to many people's belief in having self sufficient, self healing toons, the game is built on a team dynamic with different rolls, and the healer is one of the core roles at the heart of the game's team dynamic. A competent healer can make the difference between a hard fought victory and total defeat.

    If you want rewards that instill value in purchasable adventure packs , look no further than the named items. If you and your friends are having trouble doing the heroic elite content, think about getting Gianthold and The Vale of Twilight. Gianthold has very nice named items, and The Vale has Greensteel crafting. With the two packs and some play time, you and your group could easily UP your power levels and then have a greater chance at completing heroic elite quests. Free to play is good, but one of the things lacking in most of it is the named/potent gear. Go to ddowiki.com and look at the named items from any pack, and you will see one of the big appeals to pay to play content.

    Sincerely
    Last edited by Thumbed_Servant; 06-28-2013 at 02:45 AM.
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  16. #36
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    I love evasion, and was happy i splashed two levels of Monk on my WF Sorc.

    I even went with water stance for the extra reflex, and found a quarterstaff with the spell amp i wanted, rather then going dual scepters like i was used to.

    As a clumsy toaster, the odd trap is what usually did me in. especially ones that would go off twice in the time i could jet past them.

    with evasion if i can just reflex roll past ONE of the traps, i can live through it.. even getting hit full on by the second one..

    Without evasion taking full damage for one, and 1/2 damage for the other was usually enough to kill me.

    I'm sure there will be some that argue that splashing two Pally is a better choice, but i am happy with the evasion from monk, water stance for extra reflex, and Force of Personality for the other saves.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ykt View Post
    You don't need Evasion unless you're not playing DDO as a D&D game -
    Exactly! Except for the part where you're forgetting that some people play D&D with only a couple of players, or a player and a DM. But hey, facts, they have no place here.
    Quote Originally Posted by jellyfish21 View Post
    The evasion flaw
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's a flaw. It isn't. It's working the way it should. Maybe you should instead work on becoming more skilled at playing your characters instead of trying to fix flaws that aren't.

  18. #38
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    If a person is on a first life character and does not have a large plat reserve or a hoard of twink gear to pass from character to character then heroic elite content can be difficult. And while it is easy to say that they should avoid that content because they are not ready for it, the simple reality is that elite is the default for most groups.

    Now, if a player is soloing content then they should restrict themselves to content they can handle. And, as OP observes, evasion helps in this to a remarkable degree.

    I have been playing this game for a very long time. Even with that and having run quests like Waterworks several hundred times, I still go in worried about shamans and lightning bolts when I don't have an evasion based character. OTOH, when I do have an evasion based character I don't even give it a thought -- to the point that I take what would have been insane chances back when I first started playing because I'm so confident that the evasion will save me.

    So, I agree that splashing for evasion makes sense for a large number of characters because it is, as one poster observes, probably the most powerful feat in the game -- evasion and improved evasion. Those saying that it is reflex saves and that they can do this or that forget the characters they are talking about are, at this point, epic leveled with epic gear and (for the most part) spell based characters that don't really have to stick around in AoE spells or flirt with instant death by being right on top of the mobs.

    People replying with "my sorcerer can do this" or "my FvS can do that" should run a platemail armored fighter and see how far they get. It is nothing even remotely similar. And, OP is primarily describing the later type of character and not the L25 spell caster running in optimal epic destiny with best case twists of fate.

    For those observing that it is about reflex save I'll make this comment: A successful reflex save without evasion results in half damage and failure results in full damage; a successful reflex save with evasion results in no damage and failure results in full damage. Thus, a failed reflex save is the same result for both but the character with evasion takes no damage whatsoever.

    That brings me back to kobold shaman -- failure against their lightning bolt is often instant death for a character and even half damage on a L1 character can be enough to turn it into a soul stone. It really doesn't get any easier than that. So, when evasion is resulting in me expecting to make the saves and take no damage at all it makes the entire quest so much easier.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    If a person is on a first life character and does not have a large plat reserve or a hoard of twink gear to pass from character to character then heroic elite content can be difficult. And while it is easy to say that they should avoid that content because they are not ready for it, the simple reality is that elite is the default for most groups.

    Now, if a player is soloing content then they should restrict themselves to content they can handle. And, as OP observes, evasion helps in this to a remarkable degree.

    I have been playing this game for a very long time. Even with that and having run quests like Waterworks several hundred times, I still go in worried about shamans and lightning bolts when I don't have an evasion based character. OTOH, when I do have an evasion based character I don't even give it a thought -- to the point that I take what would have been insane chances back when I first started playing because I'm so confident that the evasion will save me.

    So, I agree that splashing for evasion makes sense for a large number of characters because it is, as one poster observes, probably the most powerful feat in the game -- evasion and improved evasion. Those saying that it is reflex saves and that they can do this or that forget the characters they are talking about are, at this point, epic leveled with epic gear and (for the most part) spell based characters that don't really have to stick around in AoE spells or flirt with instant death by being right on top of the mobs.

    People replying with "my sorcerer can do this" or "my FvS can do that" should run a platemail armored fighter and see how far they get. It is nothing even remotely similar. And, OP is primarily describing the later type of character and not the L25 spell caster running in optimal epic destiny with best case twists of fate.

    For those observing that it is about reflex save I'll make this comment: A successful reflex save without evasion results in half damage and failure results in full damage; a successful reflex save with evasion results in no damage and failure results in full damage. Thus, a failed reflex save is the same result for both but the character with evasion takes no damage whatsoever.

    That brings me back to kobold shaman -- failure against their lightning bolt is often instant death for a character and even half damage on a L1 character can be enough to turn it into a soul stone. It really doesn't get any easier than that. So, when evasion is resulting in me expecting to make the saves and take no damage at all it makes the entire quest so much easier.
    I think this is very much in line with my personal experience. I don't feel poorly necroeng this thread because it can be helpful for people.
    Let me say that I have been in EE with a BF shiradi without evasion. It does NOT generalize to all builds and it is not a comparable achievement to doing the same with a non evading melee.

    For me, whether you absolutely need evasion or not (FOR MELEES!) in EE comes to the following action map (feel free to correct whatever you think it is wrong):

    Do you have a high reflex save?

    1. If not, do you have all of the following: 1) very good burst self heals , 2) a sufficiently big mana pool, 3) a healthy amount of HP (around 800 at least in EE)?

    I would be careful even with all the 3 goodies listed above, boss spells can easily go over 1k damage. Without a good reflex save, you have to rely a lot on tons of HP and reliable heavy self healing. I would recommend that only to people who have a lot of experience. If you don't have 1-3) then I would recommend to rethink your build. REROLL!


    2. If you do and you don't have evasion, do you have a moderate amount of the points 1-3 listen above.

    If you don't odds are you are going to have a hard time in EE. REROLL!

    3. If you do and you have evasion, you are golden.

  20. #40
    Community Member Vanhooger's Avatar
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    Evasion make EE boring, non evasion toon are fun to play on EE, at least you need to pay attention at something. The only big problem i ever had is Double dragon raid EE and that b...h in Haunted hall.
    Last edited by Vanhooger; 04-30-2014 at 05:00 AM.

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