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  1. #1
    Community Member jellyfish21's Avatar
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    Exclamation The Need for Evasion

    When we get to quests leveled 17 and above, especially with enemies using empower and maximize, our only defense verses AoE's is Evasion. This also requires a good reflex save. At this time, the entire game suffers because of this fact. Solutions for this revolve around mitigating AoE damage. Rewarding players with static character abilities would be cool. The reward of Draconic Vitality has been implemented, which is an example of rewards. At the present time, some favor rewards are technically absent. One such patron is the favor rewards of Free Agent faction. Other rewards for favor are also technically absent. This is one suggestion to help people that want to build multiple characters who can stand toe to toe against enemy casters, characters without evasion.

    I know that there are items which help mitigate damage. However, during my discussions with other players while playing, they agree on the most viable answer which is using epic destinies to solve this problem. I realize that air ship buffs will mitigate AoE damage. But, as I stated earlier, there is a point when these Air Ship buffs become essentially useless due to the massive, spamming AoE damage from enemies.

    The only solution which I have found that works is to take either two levels of monk or rogue. That is pathetic. I've been playing since beta and have found this to be the only answer. This is a problem which needs a fix.

  2. #2
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    Evasion only works if you're wearing light armor or no armor. They've really designed the game so medium and heavy armor aren't viable options? If that's true, then yeah, it seems pretty nutty.

  3. #3
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    I've soloed every EE since MOTU on an evasionless sorcerer and even some raids.

    You need to play this game more before making such baseless wide sweeping conclusions.

  4. #4
    Community Member AlmGhandi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    I've soloed every EE since MOTU on an evasionless sorcerer and even some raids.

    You need to play this game more before making such baseless wide sweeping conclusions.
    Exactly... I Elite Streaked through three lives (Arti, FVS and Pale Master) without ever having evasion. We don't have the 30 resists on our ship yet. I don't have much "über TR gear" especially for damage mitigation... and I am not the greatest at dodging out of the way of rays (and I actually seem to die most when I forget to put my deathblock item back on...and run through a quest with my underwater action ring). I actually just finished my first Evasion life... meh. I think getting fixated on something that requires me to take at least a two level splash is not great.
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  5. #5
    Community Member Ykt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellyfish21 View Post
    The only solution which I have found that works is to take either two levels of monk or rogue. That is pathetic.
    Evasion is useless without a good Reflex save.

    If you have a good Reflex save you should be able to survive most encounters without Evasion.

    You don't need Evasion unless you're not playing DDO as a D&D game - a party game with monks/rogues who can do evasionism you need, buffers to help you survive with extra HP, resistances and saves ...

  6. #6
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    Fireshield will give you 50% fire/cold absorption and comes in scrolls and rare clickies. Energy Sheath from the Draconic Incarnation ED grants 50% absorption to any one element. Various items absorb between 5% and 33% of fire/cold/electricity damage with different numerical values stacking. Spell Absorption/Mantle items can negate spell based damage and some special attacks, as long as they have charges remaining.

  7. #7
    Community Member jellyfish21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    I've soloed every EE since MOTU on an evasionless sorcerer and even some raids.

    You need to play this game more before making such baseless wide sweeping conclusions.
    You need to read and listen more.

  8. #8
    Community Member jellyfish21's Avatar
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    Soloing with a character who both can heal themselves and have ranged focused damage does not need evasion. The replies above discounts a character using a weapon at toe-to-toe combat. I am 100% sure that the people who solo EE are not using toe-to-toe characters nor will ever do so. Building a character like that takes a lot of experience of which even I do not have. Having the evasion flaw prevents almost anyone from building such a character.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellyfish21 View Post
    When we get to quests leveled 17 and above, especially with enemies using empower and maximize, our only defense verses AoE's is Evasion. This also requires a good reflex save. At this time, the entire game suffers because of this fact. Solutions for this revolve around mitigating AoE damage. Rewarding players with static character abilities would be cool. The reward of Draconic Vitality has been implemented, which is an example of rewards. At the present time, some favor rewards are technically absent. One such patron is the favor rewards of Free Agent faction. Other rewards for favor are also technically absent. This is one suggestion to help people that want to build multiple characters who can stand toe to toe against enemy casters, characters without evasion.

    I know that there are items which help mitigate damage. However, during my discussions with other players while playing, they agree on the most viable answer which is using epic destinies to solve this problem. I realize that air ship buffs will mitigate AoE damage. But, as I stated earlier, there is a point when these Air Ship buffs become essentially useless due to the massive, spamming AoE damage from enemies.

    The only solution which I have found that works is to take either two levels of monk or rogue. That is pathetic. I've been playing since beta and have found this to be the only answer. This is a problem which needs a fix.
    I am surprised you have been playing since beta and still don't get that it is not just having evasion, but having the reflex save to support it. Evsion does not good if you cannot make the save and on EE content, most cannot make the save. Improved evasion however makes a save less important. Really what you need to reconsider is building a toon that can make a reflex save and forget evasion. This makes 2 levels of pally more attractive for most builds save a 18w/2r or a 18/2m or r both with insightful reflexes.

    The other solution is killing or ranging casters within a mob 1st or using PLIS when you cannot avoid. In heroic elites, there has been a bug around for a while that has casters spamming certain spells (disintegrate for ex.) that are doing more damage and is not WAI technically, but it has been around for so long people have adapted.

    In the short, evasion is not necessary nor is any other help from devs. However, building toons for survivability are especially if you prefer not to wait for other to run content like myself.

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    Oh and by the way, certain spells require a fortitude save, not a reflex save and evasion does not work for these.

  11. #11
    Community Member Zillee's Avatar
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    I remember what it was like to have a character with evasion for the first time. I'd finished levelling a fighter to cap and had bought the monk class on sale so was trying it out. I think my first reaction to watching my monk evade stuff was "... but this is cheating!" It made a guildie laugh Evasion rocks. I like it! But it isn't essential.

  12. #12
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    If you can't get the reflex save really friggin high don't bother.

    If you can get the reflex save really friggin high it's arguable that you don't need it.

    What's it worth . . . it depends, what do you lose for the splash. Splashing a kensai fighter is meh . . . very tough to lose that capstone since your saves will be wanting. Losing a DC on a wizard . . . to me not acceptable. Going 18/2 on a Cleric . . . sure, 18 clerics still has three 9th level spells and a meh capstone. My stalwart defender is splashed and has great saves. My bard didn't bother as his saves suck anyway.

  13. #13
    Community Member jellyfish21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jskinner937 View Post
    This makes 2 levels of pally more attractive for most builds save a 18w/2r or a 18/2m or r both with insightful reflexes.
    So, you agree that we need to multiclass rather than stay pure? Okay. My point is the flaw in this. I want to make pure builds. The evasion flaw perpetuates the lack of getting your level cap enhancement, for one, and many other large bonuses for, say, a pure sorcerer, fighter, cleric and all those classes with poor reflex saves.

    Listen, I'm speaking for the people who are not elitists. Maybe I should have mentioned that earlier. Those who either purchased the game recently or becomes a free to play player just recently both are recommended to stay pure to their class. Are we lying to them: no. Then why is it that we don't take our own advice? It's because of the reflex saves, for one, just as you've mentioned. More deeply imbedded in the flaw, which I perceive, is the evasion flaw.

  14. #14
    Community Member jellyfish21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    My bard didn't bother as his saves suck anyway.
    I think you're getting to my deeper feelings here: how does a bard do damage? A bow is pathetic for a bard. Sonic spell damage is just funny. A melee weapon is the most powerful damaging tool for a bard. How can a bard survive that way? Does someone who wants to take a melee cleric, one that has a recommended set progression at the character creation screen, want to stand toe to toe with a barbarian at their side (although this is rare, it still is a recommended, official, turbine cleric path). There are other classes, including a warrior, that suffers.

    I do not want to take paladin, rogue or monk with every one of my character builds.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by jellyfish21 View Post
    When we get to quests leveled 17 and above, especially with enemies using empower and maximize, our only defense verses AoE's is Evasion. This also requires a good reflex save. At this time, the entire game suffers because of this fact. Solutions for this revolve around mitigating AoE damage. Rewarding players with static character abilities would be cool. The reward of Draconic Vitality has been implemented, which is an example of rewards. At the present time, some favor rewards are technically absent. One such patron is the favor rewards of Free Agent faction. Other rewards for favor are also technically absent. This is one suggestion to help people that want to build multiple characters who can stand toe to toe against enemy casters, characters without evasion.

    I know that there are items which help mitigate damage. However, during my discussions with other players while playing, they agree on the most viable answer which is using epic destinies to solve this problem. I realize that air ship buffs will mitigate AoE damage. But, as I stated earlier, there is a point when these Air Ship buffs become essentially useless due to the massive, spamming AoE damage from enemies.

    The only solution which I have found that works is to take either two levels of monk or rogue. That is pathetic. I've been playing since beta and have found this to be the only answer. This is a problem which needs a fix.


    easy to avoid AOE's move out the way. Tumble helps with this lol. evasion is nice but it is not everything.

  16. #16
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellyfish21 View Post
    Soloing with a character who both can heal themselves and have ranged focused damage does not need evasion. The replies above discounts a character using a weapon at toe-to-toe combat. I am 100% sure that the people who solo EE are not using toe-to-toe characters nor will ever do so. Building a character like that takes a lot of experience of which even I do not have. Having the evasion flaw prevents almost anyone from building such a character.
    Does a Pure DoS Paladin count in the argument of if Toe-Toe is possible at EE levels Solo and in party? I ask because Paladins are know for their High saves (Many say it just begs to have evasion). Also because I have soloed Epic Elite successfully (By solo I mean without hire and without re-entry)

    I long ago embraced the Energy Absorption principle as well as multiple gear setups, one size does not fit all and when people realize this they start to see the possibilities. Combined with healing amplification you can stand in places where others even with evasion might struggle.

    For me the counter to Evasion is:
    1. Good to Great Reflex Save
    2. Absorption - Energy and Spell
    3. Healing Amplification

    The goal being that you will take Less than 1/2 damage on a Failed Save and less than 1/4 damage on a Save. Healing Amplification fills in the HP hole and it is just like it never happened.

  17. #17
    Community Member jellyfish21's Avatar
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    Thank you, Enoach.

    I've been playing my level 13 cleric / 2 monk / 2 paladin. I am parting with people who have TR'ed. The player, which match with a low reflex save, will die continually unless I quicken a Protection from Elements. I see fighters, TR fighters with over 500 health, run away from a battle because I can't keep up healing with the large amount of AoE damage that they receive. In small spaces, my cleric goes toe-to-toe with an enemy, spaming AoE heals. I see it now, the negative responses about my cleric can't keep up. Is that because I needed a high reflex save and am only level 13 cleric? YES. The system is flawed, folks. Stop trying to protect something which is bad. Make suggestions to improve our game, as I have, suggesting new favor rewards.

  18. #18
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Evasion is the best feat in the game. (well, actually, Improved Evasion is the best feat in the game.)

    It is so good that many people multiclass to get it.
    Which means giving up a capstone and more.

    Those who say it is useless without a good reflex save are only partially correct. (95% correct)

    But those who say it is necessary are not entirely correct either.

    Evasion makes thing easier.
    But you do have to make your Ref save first.

    And if you make your Ref save... and do not have Evasion... you take only half damage.... which is very significant.

    Also.... everything in DDO can be avoided.
    No, not everytime... or at least mistakes happen....

    But smart play can minimize most damage sources a great deal.

    First... the monster has to see you... or a friend standing next to you. (hint... don't stand next to your friends)

    Then he has to be able to cast on you. (or your friend)

    He generally neds a line of sight to you... or close to one anyway.

    He usually cannot be paralized or otherwise incapacitated and still cast spells on you (note: I did say "usually" grrrrrr)

    Anyway... I have commented on that sort of thin gin mnay past threads... let's just stick to Evasion for now...

    No doubt Evasion makes ithings easier.
    But like others have said the most important factor is the Ref save.

    I have harped on this for years.... a good Ref save will prevent hundreds of HP worth of damage in many fights/dungeons.
    Add Evasion and it will prevetnt countless HP of damage...

    A good Ref save by itself wil prevent 50% of all applicable damage from being taken. (typically AOE spells that have saves fo rhalf damage... and traps)

    A good Ref save and Evasion will prevent 95% of that same damage.

    So one way to look at it is Evasion is almost twice as good as having a good Ref save without Evasion.
    (seems like more than that in practice though)



    But.... part of what you are really talking about is soloing.

    A pet peave of mone... this game is not suppose to be balanced for soloing.
    Most of the first soloers multiclassed for things like Evasion and self healing.

    Others have done it on pure Ftrs and Barbarians... but they struggle with certain quests... they struggle alot with certain quests.

    Anyway, I do not want them to change anything in this game just so somone can solo high level content easiser.


    On a related note: part of the problem is also the fact that most players no longer try to use any kind of tactics at all.
    There is a growing number of players... the vast majority I beleive... that think this whole game is supposed to be sovable by charging into every room and swinging a great axe..

    Without going too much into that... let's just say that if one method doesn't work for you, I suggest trying something else...
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jellyfish21 View Post
    I think you're getting to my deeper feelings here: how does a bard do damage? A bow is pathetic for a bard. Sonic spell damage is just funny. A melee weapon is the most powerful damaging tool for a bard. How can a bard survive that way?
    My melee Bard uses an Epic Antique Greataxe, Blitzing in Legendary Dreadnought for DPS. I don't have Evasion, but I have Unearthly Reactions and Draconic Perception twisted for +12 to Reflex save, bringing my total to ~50 self-buffed. With scrolls of Fireshield and Energy Sheath also twisted, I have few issues with magic or elemental damage on EE. Having over 800 HP, 50+ Reflex save, a Pale Lavender Ioun Stone when I need it, permanent Displacement, 7-10% Dodge, 17% damage absorption from PRR and the ability to scroll almost any spell, makes for a very survivable character.

  20. #20
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellyfish21 View Post
    Soloing with a character who both can heal themselves and have ranged focused damage does not need evasion. The replies above discounts a character using a weapon at toe-to-toe combat. I am 100% sure that the people who solo EE are not using toe-to-toe characters nor will ever do so. Building a character like that takes a lot of experience of which even I do not have. Having the evasion flaw prevents almost anyone from building such a character.
    I think it would be a mistake to "balance" the game for solo EE completions. The devs have already said they don't balance heroic elite for solo play.

    I think it is more balanced to have lightly armored (rogues) or unarmored (monks) characters with good reflex saves better able to handle AoE spells and other incoming spell damage, while heavily armored characters are better able to handle close combat.
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    Cogito ergo summopere periculosus.

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