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  1. #1
    Community Member jellyfish21's Avatar
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    Exclamation The Need for Evasion

    When we get to quests leveled 17 and above, especially with enemies using empower and maximize, our only defense verses AoE's is Evasion. This also requires a good reflex save. At this time, the entire game suffers because of this fact. Solutions for this revolve around mitigating AoE damage. Rewarding players with static character abilities would be cool. The reward of Draconic Vitality has been implemented, which is an example of rewards. At the present time, some favor rewards are technically absent. One such patron is the favor rewards of Free Agent faction. Other rewards for favor are also technically absent. This is one suggestion to help people that want to build multiple characters who can stand toe to toe against enemy casters, characters without evasion.

    I know that there are items which help mitigate damage. However, during my discussions with other players while playing, they agree on the most viable answer which is using epic destinies to solve this problem. I realize that air ship buffs will mitigate AoE damage. But, as I stated earlier, there is a point when these Air Ship buffs become essentially useless due to the massive, spamming AoE damage from enemies.

    The only solution which I have found that works is to take either two levels of monk or rogue. That is pathetic. I've been playing since beta and have found this to be the only answer. This is a problem which needs a fix.

  2. #2
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    Evasion only works if you're wearing light armor or no armor. They've really designed the game so medium and heavy armor aren't viable options? If that's true, then yeah, it seems pretty nutty.

  3. #3
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    I've soloed every EE since MOTU on an evasionless sorcerer and even some raids.

    You need to play this game more before making such baseless wide sweeping conclusions.

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    Community Member AlmGhandi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    I've soloed every EE since MOTU on an evasionless sorcerer and even some raids.

    You need to play this game more before making such baseless wide sweeping conclusions.
    Exactly... I Elite Streaked through three lives (Arti, FVS and Pale Master) without ever having evasion. We don't have the 30 resists on our ship yet. I don't have much "über TR gear" especially for damage mitigation... and I am not the greatest at dodging out of the way of rays (and I actually seem to die most when I forget to put my deathblock item back on...and run through a quest with my underwater action ring). I actually just finished my first Evasion life... meh. I think getting fixated on something that requires me to take at least a two level splash is not great.
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  5. #5
    Community Member jellyfish21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    I've soloed every EE since MOTU on an evasionless sorcerer and even some raids.

    You need to play this game more before making such baseless wide sweeping conclusions.
    You need to read and listen more.

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    Community Member jellyfish21's Avatar
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    Soloing with a character who both can heal themselves and have ranged focused damage does not need evasion. The replies above discounts a character using a weapon at toe-to-toe combat. I am 100% sure that the people who solo EE are not using toe-to-toe characters nor will ever do so. Building a character like that takes a lot of experience of which even I do not have. Having the evasion flaw prevents almost anyone from building such a character.

  7. #7
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellyfish21 View Post
    Soloing with a character who both can heal themselves and have ranged focused damage does not need evasion. The replies above discounts a character using a weapon at toe-to-toe combat. I am 100% sure that the people who solo EE are not using toe-to-toe characters nor will ever do so. Building a character like that takes a lot of experience of which even I do not have. Having the evasion flaw prevents almost anyone from building such a character.
    Does a Pure DoS Paladin count in the argument of if Toe-Toe is possible at EE levels Solo and in party? I ask because Paladins are know for their High saves (Many say it just begs to have evasion). Also because I have soloed Epic Elite successfully (By solo I mean without hire and without re-entry)

    I long ago embraced the Energy Absorption principle as well as multiple gear setups, one size does not fit all and when people realize this they start to see the possibilities. Combined with healing amplification you can stand in places where others even with evasion might struggle.

    For me the counter to Evasion is:
    1. Good to Great Reflex Save
    2. Absorption - Energy and Spell
    3. Healing Amplification

    The goal being that you will take Less than 1/2 damage on a Failed Save and less than 1/4 damage on a Save. Healing Amplification fills in the HP hole and it is just like it never happened.

  8. #8
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellyfish21 View Post
    Soloing with a character who both can heal themselves and have ranged focused damage does not need evasion. The replies above discounts a character using a weapon at toe-to-toe combat. I am 100% sure that the people who solo EE are not using toe-to-toe characters nor will ever do so. Building a character like that takes a lot of experience of which even I do not have. Having the evasion flaw prevents almost anyone from building such a character.
    I think it would be a mistake to "balance" the game for solo EE completions. The devs have already said they don't balance heroic elite for solo play.

    I think it is more balanced to have lightly armored (rogues) or unarmored (monks) characters with good reflex saves better able to handle AoE spells and other incoming spell damage, while heavily armored characters are better able to handle close combat.
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    Community Member Superhanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellyfish21 View Post
    Soloing with a character who both can heal themselves and have ranged focused damage does not need evasion. The replies above discounts a character using a weapon at toe-to-toe combat. I am 100% sure that the people who solo EE are not using toe-to-toe characters nor will ever do so. Building a character like that takes a lot of experience of which even I do not have. Having the evasion flaw prevents almost anyone from building such a character.

    a toe to toe character knows to trip or stun the right threats, i had a pure sword and board stalwart defender life, he soloed a few epic elites and could have done more but i tr'd out of it because it was mostly for the pastlife, a toe to toe character can easily blast through EE content solo, some use heal scrolls, some use silver flame pots some use both, many do not have evasion and they are fighters and barbarians.
    Completionist clonk on argonnessen.

  10. #10
    Community Member Superhanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    I've soloed every EE since MOTU on an evasionless sorcerer and even some raids.

    You need to play this game more before making such baseless wide sweeping conclusions.
    having read this i got to agree, although my main is a 2/18 monk cleric, it would still solo EEs just the same even with 1monk/19cleric and thus no evasion

    high reflex goes a long way even without evasion or even failing that just playing smart will go a long way
    Completionist clonk on argonnessen.

  11. #11
    Community Member Ykt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellyfish21 View Post
    The only solution which I have found that works is to take either two levels of monk or rogue. That is pathetic.
    Evasion is useless without a good Reflex save.

    If you have a good Reflex save you should be able to survive most encounters without Evasion.

    You don't need Evasion unless you're not playing DDO as a D&D game - a party game with monks/rogues who can do evasionism you need, buffers to help you survive with extra HP, resistances and saves ...

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    Fireshield will give you 50% fire/cold absorption and comes in scrolls and rare clickies. Energy Sheath from the Draconic Incarnation ED grants 50% absorption to any one element. Various items absorb between 5% and 33% of fire/cold/electricity damage with different numerical values stacking. Spell Absorption/Mantle items can negate spell based damage and some special attacks, as long as they have charges remaining.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ykt View Post
    You don't need Evasion unless you're not playing DDO as a D&D game -
    Exactly! Except for the part where you're forgetting that some people play D&D with only a couple of players, or a player and a DM. But hey, facts, they have no place here.
    Quote Originally Posted by jellyfish21 View Post
    The evasion flaw
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's a flaw. It isn't. It's working the way it should. Maybe you should instead work on becoming more skilled at playing your characters instead of trying to fix flaws that aren't.

  14. #14
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    If a person is on a first life character and does not have a large plat reserve or a hoard of twink gear to pass from character to character then heroic elite content can be difficult. And while it is easy to say that they should avoid that content because they are not ready for it, the simple reality is that elite is the default for most groups.

    Now, if a player is soloing content then they should restrict themselves to content they can handle. And, as OP observes, evasion helps in this to a remarkable degree.

    I have been playing this game for a very long time. Even with that and having run quests like Waterworks several hundred times, I still go in worried about shamans and lightning bolts when I don't have an evasion based character. OTOH, when I do have an evasion based character I don't even give it a thought -- to the point that I take what would have been insane chances back when I first started playing because I'm so confident that the evasion will save me.

    So, I agree that splashing for evasion makes sense for a large number of characters because it is, as one poster observes, probably the most powerful feat in the game -- evasion and improved evasion. Those saying that it is reflex saves and that they can do this or that forget the characters they are talking about are, at this point, epic leveled with epic gear and (for the most part) spell based characters that don't really have to stick around in AoE spells or flirt with instant death by being right on top of the mobs.

    People replying with "my sorcerer can do this" or "my FvS can do that" should run a platemail armored fighter and see how far they get. It is nothing even remotely similar. And, OP is primarily describing the later type of character and not the L25 spell caster running in optimal epic destiny with best case twists of fate.

    For those observing that it is about reflex save I'll make this comment: A successful reflex save without evasion results in half damage and failure results in full damage; a successful reflex save with evasion results in no damage and failure results in full damage. Thus, a failed reflex save is the same result for both but the character with evasion takes no damage whatsoever.

    That brings me back to kobold shaman -- failure against their lightning bolt is often instant death for a character and even half damage on a L1 character can be enough to turn it into a soul stone. It really doesn't get any easier than that. So, when evasion is resulting in me expecting to make the saves and take no damage at all it makes the entire quest so much easier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    If a person is on a first life character and does not have a large plat reserve or a hoard of twink gear to pass from character to character then heroic elite content can be difficult. And while it is easy to say that they should avoid that content because they are not ready for it, the simple reality is that elite is the default for most groups.

    Now, if a player is soloing content then they should restrict themselves to content they can handle. And, as OP observes, evasion helps in this to a remarkable degree.

    I have been playing this game for a very long time. Even with that and having run quests like Waterworks several hundred times, I still go in worried about shamans and lightning bolts when I don't have an evasion based character. OTOH, when I do have an evasion based character I don't even give it a thought -- to the point that I take what would have been insane chances back when I first started playing because I'm so confident that the evasion will save me.

    So, I agree that splashing for evasion makes sense for a large number of characters because it is, as one poster observes, probably the most powerful feat in the game -- evasion and improved evasion. Those saying that it is reflex saves and that they can do this or that forget the characters they are talking about are, at this point, epic leveled with epic gear and (for the most part) spell based characters that don't really have to stick around in AoE spells or flirt with instant death by being right on top of the mobs.

    People replying with "my sorcerer can do this" or "my FvS can do that" should run a platemail armored fighter and see how far they get. It is nothing even remotely similar. And, OP is primarily describing the later type of character and not the L25 spell caster running in optimal epic destiny with best case twists of fate.

    For those observing that it is about reflex save I'll make this comment: A successful reflex save without evasion results in half damage and failure results in full damage; a successful reflex save with evasion results in no damage and failure results in full damage. Thus, a failed reflex save is the same result for both but the character with evasion takes no damage whatsoever.

    That brings me back to kobold shaman -- failure against their lightning bolt is often instant death for a character and even half damage on a L1 character can be enough to turn it into a soul stone. It really doesn't get any easier than that. So, when evasion is resulting in me expecting to make the saves and take no damage at all it makes the entire quest so much easier.
    I think this is very much in line with my personal experience. I don't feel poorly necroeng this thread because it can be helpful for people.
    Let me say that I have been in EE with a BF shiradi without evasion. It does NOT generalize to all builds and it is not a comparable achievement to doing the same with a non evading melee.

    For me, whether you absolutely need evasion or not (FOR MELEES!) in EE comes to the following action map (feel free to correct whatever you think it is wrong):

    Do you have a high reflex save?

    1. If not, do you have all of the following: 1) very good burst self heals , 2) a sufficiently big mana pool, 3) a healthy amount of HP (around 800 at least in EE)?

    I would be careful even with all the 3 goodies listed above, boss spells can easily go over 1k damage. Without a good reflex save, you have to rely a lot on tons of HP and reliable heavy self healing. I would recommend that only to people who have a lot of experience. If you don't have 1-3) then I would recommend to rethink your build. REROLL!


    2. If you do and you don't have evasion, do you have a moderate amount of the points 1-3 listen above.

    If you don't odds are you are going to have a hard time in EE. REROLL!

    3. If you do and you have evasion, you are golden.

  16. #16
    Community Member Vanhooger's Avatar
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    Evasion make EE boring, non evasion toon are fun to play on EE, at least you need to pay attention at something. The only big problem i ever had is Double dragon raid EE and that b...h in Haunted hall.
    Last edited by Vanhooger; 04-30-2014 at 05:00 AM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellyfish21 View Post
    When we get to quests leveled 17 and above, especially with enemies using empower and maximize, our only defense verses AoE's is Evasion. This also requires a good reflex save. At this time, the entire game suffers because of this fact. Solutions for this revolve around mitigating AoE damage. Rewarding players with static character abilities would be cool. The reward of Draconic Vitality has been implemented, which is an example of rewards. At the present time, some favor rewards are technically absent. One such patron is the favor rewards of Free Agent faction. Other rewards for favor are also technically absent. This is one suggestion to help people that want to build multiple characters who can stand toe to toe against enemy casters, characters without evasion.

    I know that there are items which help mitigate damage. However, during my discussions with other players while playing, they agree on the most viable answer which is using epic destinies to solve this problem. I realize that air ship buffs will mitigate AoE damage. But, as I stated earlier, there is a point when these Air Ship buffs become essentially useless due to the massive, spamming AoE damage from enemies.

    The only solution which I have found that works is to take either two levels of monk or rogue. That is pathetic. I've been playing since beta and have found this to be the only answer. This is a problem which needs a fix.
    I am surprised you have been playing since beta and still don't get that it is not just having evasion, but having the reflex save to support it. Evsion does not good if you cannot make the save and on EE content, most cannot make the save. Improved evasion however makes a save less important. Really what you need to reconsider is building a toon that can make a reflex save and forget evasion. This makes 2 levels of pally more attractive for most builds save a 18w/2r or a 18/2m or r both with insightful reflexes.

    The other solution is killing or ranging casters within a mob 1st or using PLIS when you cannot avoid. In heroic elites, there has been a bug around for a while that has casters spamming certain spells (disintegrate for ex.) that are doing more damage and is not WAI technically, but it has been around for so long people have adapted.

    In the short, evasion is not necessary nor is any other help from devs. However, building toons for survivability are especially if you prefer not to wait for other to run content like myself.

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    Oh and by the way, certain spells require a fortitude save, not a reflex save and evasion does not work for these.

  19. #19
    Community Member jellyfish21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jskinner937 View Post
    This makes 2 levels of pally more attractive for most builds save a 18w/2r or a 18/2m or r both with insightful reflexes.
    So, you agree that we need to multiclass rather than stay pure? Okay. My point is the flaw in this. I want to make pure builds. The evasion flaw perpetuates the lack of getting your level cap enhancement, for one, and many other large bonuses for, say, a pure sorcerer, fighter, cleric and all those classes with poor reflex saves.

    Listen, I'm speaking for the people who are not elitists. Maybe I should have mentioned that earlier. Those who either purchased the game recently or becomes a free to play player just recently both are recommended to stay pure to their class. Are we lying to them: no. Then why is it that we don't take our own advice? It's because of the reflex saves, for one, just as you've mentioned. More deeply imbedded in the flaw, which I perceive, is the evasion flaw.

  20. #20
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellyfish21 View Post
    Listen, I'm speaking for the people who are not elitists. Maybe I should have mentioned that earlier. Those who either purchased the game recently or becomes a free to play player just recently both are recommended to stay pure to their class. Are we lying to them: no. Then why is it that we don't take our own advice? It's because of the reflex saves, for one, just as you've mentioned. More deeply imbedded in the flaw, which I perceive, is the evasion flaw.
    I'm sorry but you're not making any sense, what exactly is your point? Saying plainly like you're taking to a 5 year old.

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