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  1. #1
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    May 2013
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    Default Thinking about rolling a "trapchanter" ... any advice?

    (Edit note, no longer planning to finish as a warchanter, so the "trapchanter" part may not be all that accurate any more. Planning to switch to Spellsinger eventually. Latest build plan is in post #20.)

    Yeah, silly newbie tries something again...


    Now, I've seen mentions about bards being self-sufficient and all that, I suppose I could try that myself too.
    I do have one warchanter going already, and traps on elite are getting to be a problem when not having a rogue (or artificer) along with no worthwhile spot, search, evasion, or disable. Especially in a PUG, or a regular (real-life family, most of the time) group with the rogue absent - soloing is actually a bit easier...


    So, given that I see mentions about trap-skilled bards every now and then but most of the relevant links are broken (and while I can figure out how to mangle the URL from old thread-based links, I still don't know what to do about old post-based links - anyone?), I tried to figure out how to do that with the planner...

    Does this look like it might work? Any suggestions on how to make it better with f2p resources? Like, what about going 15/3/2 instead? Fighter instead of ranger, khopesh proficiency in exchange for some skill points, bow strength, rapid shot and favored enemy - is khopesh that good?

    Swap OTWF for something else, maybe? Like weapon finesse (well, take it earlier, really), go DEX-based and put a few points into CON/WIS too for saves (especially fort and will do seem quite low...) ?

    And, yes, this is TWF, because I find glancing blows sort of annoying with my current THF warchanter already, and this thing occasionally gets a bit of sneak attack in too. Besides, with dex for reflex saves and thus working evasion, it doesn't seem like much of a problem...?


    Yes, I could do drow as an alternative, but would that help any? Would some other race be better? I sort of think that all three of drow's +2 stats would help in this case?




    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
    (2 Rogue \ 2 Ranger \ 16 Bard) 
    Hit Points: 226
    Spell Points: 490 
    BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
    Fortitude: 9
    Reflex: 20
    Will: 9
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             16                    20
    Dexterity            15                    18
    Constitution         12                    12
    Intelligence         12                    12
    Wisdom                8                     8
    Charisma             10                    13
    
    Tomes Used
    +1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 14
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
    Balance               6                    10
    Bluff                 4                     5
    Concentration         1                     1
    Diplomacy             0                     1
    Disable Device        5                    24
    Haggle                4                     5
    Heal                 -1                    -1
    Hide                  3                     5
    Intimidate            0                     5
    Jump                  7                    10
    Listen                0                     0
    Move Silently         3                     5
    Open Lock             6                     8
    Perform               n/a                  24
    Repair                1                     1
    Search                5                    25
    Spot                  3                    23
    Swim                  3                     5
    Tumble                3                     5
    Use Magic Device      4                    24
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Skill: Balance (+4)
    Skill: Bluff (+4)
    Skill: Disable Device (+4)
    Skill: Haggle (+4)
    Skill: Hide (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+4)
    Skill: Listen (+1)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Open Lock (+4)
    Skill: Search (+4)
    Skill: Spot (+4)
    Skill: Tumble (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
    Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
    Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
    
    
    Level 2 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+5)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 3 (Ranger)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
    Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 4 (Ranger)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 5 (Bard)
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 6 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
    
    
    Level 7 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 8 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 9 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
    
    
    Level 10 (Rogue)
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+3)
    Skill: Spot (+2)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 11 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 12 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: DEX
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 13 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 14 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 15 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 16 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 17 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 18 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 19 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 20 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
    Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery III
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III
    Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I
    Enhancement: Bard Warchanter II
    Enhancement: Human Adaptability Charisma I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
    Enhancement: Human Versatility I
    Enhancement: Human Versatility II
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
    Enhancement: Improved Search I
    Enhancement: Improved Spot I
    Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song II
    Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Incredible Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic III
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic IV
    Enhancement: Ranger Devotion I
    Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
    Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II
    Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
    Enhancement: Bard Charisma II
    Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
    Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery I
    Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery II
    Enhancement: Bard Wand Heightening I

    ...hm. Can Ranger Devotion 1 be taken simultaneously with the Bard Song Magic line, and do they stack?
    Last edited by mna; 06-27-2013 at 07:16 AM. Reason: Significant advice received and noted later in the thread.

  2. #2
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    May 2013
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    Well.

    Going drow seems to ... mostly, lose the healing amp, and gain a point more in a few saves and skills?

    And the spell resistance and +2 save against enchantments, right...

    Oh, and I suppose starting the human version with less CHA would have been possible although slightly annoying for the first couple of bard levels, but here it just won't go any lower... hm, that'd have been the difference in the 1 point of will save...


    Not sure if it's in the end any better than the human version, or worse? Help?


    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 True Neutral Drow Male
    (2 Rogue \ 2 Ranger \ 16 Bard) 
    Hit Points: 226
    Spell Points: 510 
    BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
    Fortitude: 9
    Reflex: 21
    Will: 10
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             16                    21
    Dexterity            16                    20
    Constitution         12                    12
    Intelligence         14                    14
    Wisdom               10                    10
    Charisma             10                    12
    
    Tomes Used
    +1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 14
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
    Balance               7                    11
    Bluff                 4                     5
    Concentration         1                     1
    Diplomacy             0                     1
    Disable Device        6                    25
    Haggle                4                     5
    Heal                  0                     0
    Hide                  4                     6
    Intimidate            0                     5
    Jump                  7                    10
    Listen                1                     3
    Move Silently         4                     6
    Open Lock             7                     9
    Perform               n/a                  24
    Repair                2                     2
    Search                6                    30
    Spot                  4                    28
    Swim                  3                     5
    Tumble                4                     6
    Use Magic Device      4                    24
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Skill: Balance (+4)
    Skill: Bluff (+4)
    Skill: Disable Device (+4)
    Skill: Haggle (+4)
    Skill: Hide (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+4)
    Skill: Listen (+1)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Open Lock (+4)
    Skill: Search (+4)
    Skill: Spot (+4)
    Skill: Tumble (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    
    
    Level 2 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+5)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 3 (Ranger)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
    Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
    
    
    Level 4 (Ranger)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 5 (Bard)
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 6 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
    
    
    Level 7 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 8 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 9 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
    
    
    Level 10 (Rogue)
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+3)
    Skill: Spot (+2)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 11 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 12 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
    
    
    Level 13 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 14 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 15 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 16 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 17 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 18 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 19 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 20 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
    Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery III
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
    Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I
    Enhancement: Bard Warchanter II
    Enhancement: Drow Weapon Attack I
    Enhancement: Drow Weapon Damage I
    Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
    Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
    Enhancement: Elven Perception I
    Enhancement: Elven Perception II
    Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes I
    Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes II
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
    Enhancement: Improved Search I
    Enhancement: Improved Spot I
    Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song II
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic III
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic IV
    Enhancement: Ranger Devotion I
    Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
    Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II
    Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music III
    Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
    Enhancement: Bard Charisma II
    Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I

  3. #3
    Community Member Lauf's Avatar
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    if you have the option to roll 32 point builds (AKA champion status) then I would go with human. (extra feat and an extra skill point each level, heal amp and human versatility, if u can squeeze them in) if you don't have 32 point builds, then take the drow. they automatically give you 32 build points, and you'll need them for making a twf trapping bard.

    for feats on a human I would go with: toughness, PA, weapon focus, twf + improved twf + greater twf, improved critical, and extend or empower healing or magical training, depending on your playstyle.

    on a drow I would drop the magical feat, or alternatively add a fighter splash for extra feats.

    khopesh IS good, but in my opinion not good enough to warrant such a sacrifice on a bard build. your toon is a support character, and as such you'll never come close to the damage of the pure melees, regardless of your weapon of choice.
    I prefer to use a high crit profile weapon that gives a useful on-crit effect, such as a rad2 greensteel rapier or sacrificial daggers, for example.

    hope this helps.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauf View Post
    if you have the option to roll 32 point builds (AKA champion status) then I would go with human. (extra feat and an extra skill point each level, heal amp and human versatility, if u can squeeze them in) if you don't have 32 point builds, then take the drow. they automatically give you 32 build points, and you'll need them for making a twf trapping bard.
    Not going to have 32 pt builds in a while, none of my toons are past 1000 favor yet.

    But it didn't seem to me like drow actually would help that much in this case...?

    If I start with 8 CHA, things will be annoying until I get at least a +3 CHA item, yes... but in that case the human version will end up at a net of 1 less str and 1 less reflex save at level 20, and will have heal amp and versatility. And that extra feat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauf View Post
    for feats on a human I would go with: toughness, PA, weapon focus, twf + improved twf + greater twf, improved critical, and extend or empower healing or magical training, depending on your playstyle.

    on a drow I would drop the magical feat, or alternatively add a fighter splash for extra feats.
    Um. I was already planning on taking 2 ranger for TWF+ranged help in the TWF case. Can't add a fourth class.

    (Now, THF trapping bard is another thing altogether... and seems to take a hit in reflex saves even if I pump up int a bit and fit in insightful reflexes. Should I still go that way?)

    I suppose I really should drop OTWF for imp crit, though. That gets me both extend AND emp heal on a str-based highish-dex human. (Selected feats in planned order, latest version: toughness, PA, WF slash, FE undead, extend, emp heal, IC slash, ITWF, GTWF. Also gets rapid shot and bow strength. Although I wonder if the leveling sequence isn't quite optimal in that plan...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauf View Post
    khopesh IS good, but in my opinion not good enough to warrant such a sacrifice on a bard build. your toon is a support character, and as such you'll never come close to the damage of the pure melees, regardless of your weapon of choice.
    I prefer to use a high crit profile weapon that gives a useful on-crit effect, such as a rad2 greensteel rapier or sacrificial daggers, for example.
    ...and on-crit effects really need the imp crit feat anyway, right.
    Last edited by mna; 06-16-2013 at 06:30 PM.

  5. #5
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    The short version: I would dump CHA for more CON; ftr 2 > rgr 2 to a TWF build unless you're going for Manyshot, in which case the extra feat from rgr is better, or you really want rgr Devotion I (yes, it will stack w/bard Song Magic); drop OTWF for Imp Crit.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post
    (Now, THF trapping bard is another thing altogether... and seems to take a hit in reflex saves even if I pump up int a bit and fit in insightful reflexes. Should I still go that way?)
    Hm.

    I did play with that in the planner. Should I go the ITHF/GTHF way, or, since I already need PA for warchanter, Cleave/GC? Seems like I could (assuming I ever get into epic levels) easily qualify for Overwhelming Critical with a +2 tome in the latter case...

    Like, about so:
    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
    (1 Fighter \ 3 Rogue \ 16 Bard) 
    Hit Points: 206
    Spell Points: 425 
    BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
    Fortitude: 10
    Reflex: 15
    Will: 11
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             16                    21
    Dexterity            10                    10
    Constitution         14                    14
    Intelligence         14                    14
    Wisdom               10                    10
    Charisma             10                    10
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
    Balance               0                     0
    Bluff                 0                     0
    Concentration         2                     2
    Diplomacy             0                     0
    Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
    Haggle                0                     0
    Heal                  0                     0
    Hide                  0                     0
    Intimidate            0                     0
    Jump                  3                     5
    Listen                0                     0
    Move Silently         0                     0
    Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
    Perform               n/a                   n/a
    Repair                2                     2
    Search                2                     2
    Spot                  0                     0
    Swim                  3                     5
    Tumble                n/a                   n/a
    Use Magic Device      n/a                   n/a
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
    Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
    Feat: (Automatic) Attack
    Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
    Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
    Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
    Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
    Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack
    Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding
    
    
    Level 2 (Bard)
    Feat: (Automatic) Dismiss Charm
    Feat: (Automatic) Fascinate
    Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Courage
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longsword
    Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
    
    
    Level 3 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
    Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
    Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
    Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
    Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
    Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
    Feat: (Automatic) Tower Shield Proficiency
    Feat: (Automatic) Trip
    
    
    Level 4 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 5 (Bard)
    Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Competence
    
    
    Level 6 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
    
    
    Level 7 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 8 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Automatic) Suggestion
    
    
    Level 9 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Cleave
    Feat: (Automatic) Evasion
    
    
    Level 10 (Bard)
    Feat: (Automatic) Improved Inspire Courage
    
    
    Level 11 (Bard)
    Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Greatness
    
    
    Level 12 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 13 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 14 (Bard)
    Feat: (Automatic) Song of Freedom
    
    
    Level 15 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
    
    
    Level 16 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Automatic) Trap Sense
    
    
    Level 17 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 18 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave
    
    
    Level 19 (Bard)
    Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Heroics
    
    
    Level 20 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    But, should I reduce DEX and CHA further and put that into, say, INT or WIS for saves? Assuming I end up going this way...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    The short version: I would dump CHA for more CON; ftr 2 > rgr 2 to a TWF build unless you're going for Manyshot, in which case the extra feat from rgr is better, or you really want rgr Devotion I (yes, it will stack w/bard Song Magic); drop OTWF for Imp Crit.
    Yes, well. One of the things my existing warchanter is bad at, is ranged combat - if I could take both bow strength and TWF with just 2 levels of fighter, I would, and gladly.

    The ranger way, dropping extend (at higher levels when things last long enough without it too, if not right away) for point blank shot would make it possible to take manyshot at 21 or 24... if I ever get there. Or as an alternative to ITWF/GTWF.

    So... something like this, now?

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
    (2 Rogue \ 2 Ranger \ 16 Bard) 
    Hit Points: 246
    Spell Points: 465 
    BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
    Fortitude: 10
    Reflex: 20
    Will: 9
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             16                    20
    Dexterity            15                    18
    Constitution         14                    14
    Intelligence         12                    12
    Wisdom                8                     8
    Charisma              8                    11
    
    Tomes Used
    +1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 14
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
    Balance               6                    10
    Bluff                 3                     4
    Concentration         2                     2
    Diplomacy            -1                     0
    Disable Device        5                    24
    Haggle                3                     4
    Heal                 -1                    -1
    Hide                  3                     5
    Intimidate           -1                     4
    Jump                  7                    10
    Listen                0                     0
    Move Silently         3                     5
    Open Lock             6                     8
    Perform              n/a                   23
    Repair                1                     1
    Search                5                    25
    Spot                  3                    23
    Swim                  3                     5
    Tumble                3                     5
    Use Magic Device      3                    23
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
    Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
    Feat: (Automatic) Attack
    Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
    Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
    Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
    Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
    Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack
    Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding
    
    
    Level 2 (Bard)
    Feat: (Automatic) Dismiss Charm
    Feat: (Automatic) Fascinate
    Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Courage
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longsword
    Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
    
    
    Level 3 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
    Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
    Feat: (Automatic) Bow Strength
    Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
    Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
    Feat: (Automatic) Trip
    Feat: (Automatic) Wild Empathy
    
    
    Level 4 (Ranger)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Automatic) Rapid Shot
    Feat: (Automatic) Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 5 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 6 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
    Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Competence
    
    
    Level 7 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 8 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 9 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
    Feat: (Automatic) Suggestion
    
    
    Level 10 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Automatic) Evasion
    
    
    Level 11 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 12 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: DEX
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    Feat: (Automatic) Improved Inspire Courage
    
    
    Level 13 (Bard)
    Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Greatness
    
    
    Level 14 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 15 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 16 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Automatic) Song of Freedom
    
    
    Level 17 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 18 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 19 (Bard)
    Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Heroics
    
    
    Level 20 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR

  8. #8
    Community Member Lauf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post
    So... something like this, now?
    looks good. I love the idea of having manyshot and gtwf on a trapping bard might have to try it myself sometime

    and don't forget to account for inspire excellence in your epic feats though even with manyshot at 21 or 24, you should have no problem slotting inspire excellence as well.

    keep in mind though that 8 stating cha would mean you would need a +6 item and a +2 tome (or any other +8 total combo) to be able to cast level 6 bard spells.
    also, this means you won't have a high enough cha for casting for at least a few levels early on.

    but down the line you'll have a very fun bard to play, and you'll have free +2 tome coming your way at the 1750 favor mark, so no worries

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauf View Post
    keep in mind though that 8 stating cha would mean you would need a +6 item and a +2 tome (or any other +8 total combo) to be able to cast level 6 bard spells.
    also, this means you won't have a high enough cha for casting for at least a few levels early on.
    ...I plan on eventually getting at least 3 CHA from enhancements, for that net +8. Human could get 4 but Bard Cha III is expensive.

    And that's also why those two martial levels are both so early - more time to find a +cha item.

    Yep, doesn't look like I'll have to wait for 32 pt builds (or a TR) to do this. Remains to be seen if it'll be effective, but...
    Quote Originally Posted by Lauf View Post
    but down the line you'll have a very fun bard to play, and you'll have free +2 tome coming your way at the 1750 favor mark, so no worries
    Too bad I didn't think of this back when the birthday box thing was still going.

    ... Hey, is that 1750 just first per server, or any toon that reaches 1750 favor? Because this won't be my first toon on whichever server I put it on.
    Last edited by mna; 06-17-2013 at 02:52 AM.

  10. #10
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post

    ... Hey, is that 1750 just first per server, or any toon that reaches 1750 favor? Because this won't be my first toon on whichever server I put it on.
    Every toon gets it, last I checked.
    My main has gotten it 5 times.. Why can't I trade it for tp?

  11. #11
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    There were a few posts on the forums over the past couple of weeks indicating that Bard enhancements might be bugged. Can anyone confirm whether this bug exists and is still in effect? I don't want to reset the enhancements on my Bard until I know for sure.

  12. #12
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post
    One of the things my existing warchanter is bad at, is ranged combat - if I could take both bow strength and TWF with just 2 levels of fighter, I would, and gladly.
    So, maybe something like this?
    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.16.01
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 25 True Neutral Half-Elf Female
    (2 Fighter \ 2 Ranger \ 16 Bard \ 5 Epic) 
    Hit Points: 359
    Spell Points: 805 
    BAB: 16\16\21\26\26
    Fortitude: 15
    Reflex: 16
    Will: 9
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 25)
    Strength             16                    25
    Dexterity            15                    17
    Constitution         16                    18
    Intelligence          8                     8
    Wisdom                8                     8
    Charisma              8                     8
    
    Tomes Used
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
    
    Level 1 (Bard)
    Feat: (Half-Elf Dilettante) Half-Elf Dilettante: Rogue
    Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot
    
    
    Level 2 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
    
    
    Level 3 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    
    
    Level 4 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 5 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 6 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons
    
    
    Level 7 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 8 (Fighter)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Manyshot
    
    
    Level 9 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 10 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 11 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
    
    
    Level 12 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Selected) Precision
    
    
    Level 13 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 14 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 15 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 16 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 17 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 18 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
    
    
    Level 19 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 20 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Acid Arrows
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Explosive Arrows
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Force Arrows
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Force Burst Arrows
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Slaying Arrows
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Terror Arrows
    Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
    Enhancement: Bard Spellsinger I
    Enhancement: Bard Spellsinger II
    Enhancement: Improved Rogue Dilettante I
    Enhancement: Improved Rogue Dilettante II
    Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +2 Arrows
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +3 Arrows
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +4 Arrows
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +5 Arrows
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer I
    Enhancement: Improved Concentration I
    Enhancement: Improved Concentration II
    Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song II
    Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Incredible Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic III
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic IV
    Enhancement: Ranger Devotion I
    Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
    Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II
    Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music III
    Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
    Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
    Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery I
    Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery II
    Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery III
    
    
    Level 21 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Inspire Excellence
    
    
    Level 22 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 23 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 24 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
    
    
    Level 25 (Bard)
    The concept was a self-sufficient melee bard who also has the burst DPS from Manyshot+Imbues. The advantage of going human instead is an extra feat (2 if you count dropping WF:R); the drawback would be losing AA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    So, maybe something like this?
    Code:
    Level 25 True Neutral Half-Elf Female
    (2 Fighter \ 2 Ranger \ 16 Bard \ 5 Epic) 
    .......
    The concept was a self-sufficient melee bard who also has the burst DPS from Manyshot+Imbues. The advantage of going human instead is an extra feat (2 if you count dropping WF:R); the drawback would be losing AA.
    Well, sort of but not exactly - I was going for self-sufficient bard with evasion and traps, not completely helpless in either melee or ranged.

    The question was, is this doable well enough to be worth it as 28pt f2p first life, or at most with drow unlocked... and it looks like I'll at least try.

    Had one of my older toons buy a ML5 +3 CHA item from the AH already.
    Last edited by mna; 06-17-2013 at 09:42 AM.

  14. #14
    Community Member Lauf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post
    ...I plan on eventually getting at least 3 CHA from enhancements, for that net +8. Human could get 4 but Bard Cha III is expensive.
    I doubt you'll have the enhancement points for cha III, as you'll want to have the full devotion line, the full lingering song, attack bonus, damage bonus, courage bonus (for warchanter pre-req), prestiege and human versatility and heal amp.... your enhancement points would be stretched too thin as it is.
    you could however manage an easy +2 (+1 from human for 2ap, +1 from bard for another 2ap), that and the +6 item should cover your needs until you land a +2 tome and can respec.

    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post
    ... Hey, is that 1750 just first per server, or any toon that reaches 1750 favor? Because this won't be my first toon on whichever server I put it on.
    any toon that reaches 1750 gets to pick one as a reward, no worries

  15. #15
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post
    Well, sort of but not exactly - I was going for self-sufficient bard with evasion and traps, not completely helpless in either melee or ranged.

    The question was, is this doable well enough to be worth it as 28pt f2p first life, or at most with drow unlocked... and it looks like I'll at least try.
    Okay, then perhaps something more like this:
    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.16.01
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 True Neutral Human Female
    (2 Rogue \ 2 Ranger \ 16 Bard) 
    Hit Points: 266
    Spell Points: 425 
    BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
    Fortitude: 11
    Reflex: 19
    Will: 10
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             16                    24
    Dexterity            15                    17
    Constitution         14                    16
    Intelligence         12                    12
    Wisdom                8                    10
    Charisma              8                    10
    
    Tomes Used
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 8
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 20
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
    +2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20
    +2 Tome of Charisma used at level 20
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot
    Feat: (Human Bonus) Power Attack
    
    
    Level 2 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 3 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    
    
    Level 4 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 5 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 6 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 7 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 8 (Ranger)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 9 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Manyshot
    
    
    Level 10 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 11 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 12 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 13 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 14 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 15 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 16 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 17 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 18 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 19 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 20 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
    Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
    Enhancement: Bard Extra Song III
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery III
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III
    Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I
    Enhancement: Bard Warchanter II
    Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
    Enhancement: Human Versatility I
    Enhancement: Human Versatility II
    Enhancement: Human Versatility III
    Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic III
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic IV
    Enhancement: Ranger Devotion I
    Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery I
    Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery II
    Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery III
    Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery IV
    Same concept & basic layout as yours, but I squeezed in Manyshot a lot sooner. Until lvl 12 she uses 2H weapons; Carnifex is a good choice if you have one. I dropped the metamagics due to feat shortage, but you have a feat slot to spare at lvl 24; 21 feat should be Inspire Excellence, IMHO.

    I'm a bit lukewarm on WCs these days, particularly on a rog splash: Ironskin Chant ceases to be much use past mid-teen levels (by that point seems like everyone has better sources of DR); and one of the perks of WC is med armor w/out ASF, but that's useless to an Evasion toon. So one option for late-game would be to swap WF:S for Maximize and switch to Spellsinger; this may be better in the long run if you really want a self-healing toon, since you'll get SS Vigor for free SPs (in which case I'd grab Quicken as the other epic feat).

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauf View Post
    I doubt you'll have the enhancement points for cha III, as you'll want to have the full devotion line, the full lingering song, attack bonus, damage bonus, courage bonus (for warchanter pre-req), prestiege and human versatility and heal amp.... your enhancement points would be stretched too thin as it is.
    you could however manage an easy +2 (+1 from human for 2ap, +1 from bard for another 2ap), that and the +6 item should cover your needs until you land a +2 tome and can respec.
    Well, in the very first post in this thread, I included an enhancement breakdown that included Bard Cha II and Human Adaptability Cha, for net 3 from enhancements. Not likely to spend 6 AP for Bard Cha III.

    The question is, did I accidentally sacrifice something essential there?

    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Okay, then perhaps something more like this:
    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.16.01
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 True Neutral Human Female
    (2 Rogue \ 2 Ranger \ 16 Bard) 
    Hit Points: 266
    Spell Points: 425 
    BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
    Fortitude: 11
    Reflex: 19
    Will: 10
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             16                    24
    Dexterity            15                    17
    Constitution         14                    16
    Intelligence         12                    12
    Wisdom                8                    10
    Charisma              8                    10
    
    Tomes Used
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 8
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 20
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
    +2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20
    +2 Tome of Charisma used at level 20
    
    Same concept & basic layout as yours, but I squeezed in Manyshot a lot sooner. Until lvl 12 she uses 2H weapons; Carnifex is a good choice if you have one. I dropped the metamagics due to feat shortage, but you have a feat slot to spare at lvl 24; 21 feat should be Inspire Excellence, IMHO.
    Well, yes, that could be better than mine. But I don't think I can rely on getting a +2 dex tome that soon. Even a +1 tome is likely to require help from the other toon, but should be doable, so putting the level 8 point into dex probably and...

    Like I said, too bad that I didn't think to do this back when the birthday box thing was still on...

    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    I'm a bit lukewarm on WCs these days, particularly on a rog splash: Ironskin Chant ceases to be much use past mid-teen levels (by that point seems like everyone has better sources of DR); and one of the perks of WC is med armor w/out ASF, but that's useless to an Evasion toon. So one option for late-game would be to swap WF:S for Maximize and switch to Spellsinger; this may be better in the long run if you really want a self-healing toon, since you'll get SS Vigor for free SPs (in which case I'd grab Quicken as the other epic feat).
    Yes, switching to Spellsinger II at 12 bard does look like a pretty good option in this case.


    Have to think a bit more about this still...

  17. #17
    Community Member Lauf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post
    Well, in the very first post in this thread, I included an enhancement breakdown that included Bard Cha II and Human Adaptability Cha, for net 3 from enhancements. Not likely to spend 6 AP for Bard Cha III.

    The question is, did I accidentally sacrifice something essential there?
    lets go over your enhancements then

    enhancements I feel can be dropped:
    Bard Charisma II (4 ap) (you only need +8 in total, with +6 items being a common thing, +2 from enhancements is enough)
    Improved Search I (you can use focusing chant to increase your skills by one, and being a bard you'll always have GH handy. as you'll see we'll compensate for this with a better skill boost from human versatility)
    Improved Spot I (it's a wisdom based skill, you've dropped wisdom... I fail to see how a +1 would make a significant difference here)
    Bard Extra Song I (you should have more songs than you'd know what to do with at later levels)
    Bard Energy of the Music II (2 ap) (early on, take it if u feel the need to. at later levels you should have an sp item and cha item equipped, and 20 sp would make very little difference)

    Bard Lyric of Song I
    Bard Lyric of Song II
    Bard Lyric of Incredible Song I

    warchanters are spot healers, and as such investing in anything beyond the plain positive power enhancements is a waste in my opinion. most of your time and sp should not be spent on healing, and the points you're spending here for a small chance at critical heals can be better spent elsewhere.

    enhancement you should definitely drop:
    Bard Wand Heightening I
    as the DCs on wands are too low to matter anyway, making this a wasted point

    dropping all of the above would free up 14 points, which is a sizable chunk

    enhancements I feel you should aspire to add:
    Human versatility 3 & 4 (7 ap total)
    Bard Inspired Attack III (6 ap)
    Bard Lingering Song 4 (4 ap)

    so we have 14 points freed up, and 17 points worth of a wish list... now you see why I wrote earlier that your enhancement points would be stretched too thin as it is
    I would suggest taking:
    1. Bard Lingering Song 4
    2. Bard Inspired Attack III
    3. Human versatility 3
    totaling in 13 points, leaving you 1 to re-spend.


    bards are always tight for enhancements, this one's no different ... hope this helps

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    You may want to check if Bard enhancements are still bugged before proceeding with this idea.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauf View Post
    lets go over your enhancements then

    enhancements I feel can be dropped:
    Bard Charisma II (4 ap) (you only need +8 in total, with +6 items being a common thing, +2 from enhancements is enough)
    Possibly. I have been known to get unlucky with such gear needs occasionally, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauf View Post
    Improved Search I (you can use focusing chant to increase your skills by one, and being a bard you'll always have GH handy. as you'll see we'll compensate for this with a better skill boost from human versatility)
    Improved Spot I (it's a wisdom based skill, you've dropped wisdom... I fail to see how a +1 would make a significant difference here)
    I was actually considering upping wis just to get more spot. I can't rely on knowing in advance where the traps will be, and it does help with target acquisition while doing ranged too - having the targets disappear when the focusing chant expires is annoying (BTDT).

    Search is for the trap role as well.

    I've responded to guild chat calls for help into quests with base above my level on elite before. It just isn't possible to have too much + to trapping skills, IMO.

    Just wish it was possible to inspire competence on yourself, too...
    Quote Originally Posted by Lauf View Post
    Bard Extra Song I (you should have more songs than you'd know what to do with at later levels)
    Bard Energy of the Music II (2 ap) (early on, take it if u feel the need to. at later levels you should have an sp item and cha item equipped, and 20 sp would make very little difference)
    Could be. My existing warchanter still keeps running low on songs (12) in longer quests though.
    And you can do much with 20 sp sometimes... but, possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauf View Post
    Bard Lyric of Song I
    Bard Lyric of Song II
    Bard Lyric of Incredible Song I

    warchanters are spot healers, and as such investing in anything beyond the plain positive power enhancements is a waste in my opinion. most of your time and sp should not be spent on healing, and the points you're spending here for a small chance at critical heals can be better spent elsewhere.
    Right... I was thinking more about resistant undead at that point, but I agree that dropping those does make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauf View Post
    enhancement you should definitely drop:
    Bard Wand Heightening I
    as the DCs on wands are too low to matter anyway, making this a wasted point
    Hm, I thought it might have been useful. My existing warchanter pulled the Wand of Blasting the other day and not everyone gets their saves against it... the problem is getting UMD high enough to use it successfully.

    Possibly have it for a while if I happen to pull good wands this time, but even if so, get rid of it later, I suppose.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lauf View Post
    dropping all of the above would free up 14 points, which is a sizable chunk

    enhancements I feel you should aspire to add:
    Human versatility 3 & 4 (7 ap total)
    Bard Inspired Attack III (6 ap)
    Bard Lingering Song 4 (4 ap)

    so we have 14 points freed up, and 17 points worth of a wish list... now you see why I wrote earlier that your enhancement points would be stretched too thin as it is
    I would suggest taking:
    1. Bard Lingering Song 4
    2. Bard Inspired Attack III
    3. Human versatility 3
    totaling in 13 points, leaving you 1 to re-spend.


    bards are always tight for enhancements, this one's no different ... hope this helps
    Right... have to do up a new version in the planner, at least... did this thing know how to handle enhancement or even feat respecs, again...?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightToRemainStupid View Post
    You may want to check if Bard enhancements are still bugged before proceeding with this idea.
    Well. My ftr1/barb1/bard10 warchanter is not having any significant problems with that any more, after resetting enhancements once after the last patch. Besides, it's not like bard would be the only class where enhancements look funny nowadays.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Okay, then perhaps something more like this:
    (Character Planner Export)
    Same concept & basic layout as yours, but I squeezed in Manyshot a lot sooner. Until lvl 12 she uses 2H weapons; Carnifex is a good choice if you have one. I dropped the metamagics due to feat shortage, but you have a feat slot to spare at lvl 24; 21 feat should be Inspire Excellence, IMHO.

    I'm a bit lukewarm on WCs these days, particularly on a rog splash: Ironskin Chant ceases to be much use past mid-teen levels (by that point seems like everyone has better sources of DR); and one of the perks of WC is med armor w/out ASF, but that's useless to an Evasion toon. So one option for late-game would be to swap WF:S for Maximize and switch to Spellsinger; this may be better in the long run if you really want a self-healing toon, since you'll get SS Vigor for free SPs (in which case I'd grab Quicken as the other epic feat).
    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post
    Well, yes, that could be better than mine. But I don't think I can rely on getting a +2 dex tome that soon. Even a +1 tome is likely to require help from the other toon, but should be doable, so putting the level 8 point into dex probably and...

    Like I said, too bad that I didn't think to do this back when the birthday box thing was still on...

    Yes, switching to Spellsinger II at 12 bard does look like a pretty good option in this case.
    So, latest version of my plan, with a few enhancement and one feat respec included... slightly pessimistic in that I only assumed a +1 tome by level 8 and thus put that ability point into dex, and only assumed a +5 cha item (but also a +1 tome there).

    Sure, in the optimal case, I'd get +2 dex AND int tomes by 7... well, maybe a LR if/when I ever get those.

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
    (2 Rogue \ 2 Ranger \ 16 Bard) 
    Hit Points: 226
    Spell Points: 685 
    BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
    Fortitude: 10
    Reflex: 19
    Will: 9
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             16                    20
    Dexterity            15                    17
    Constitution         14                    14
    Intelligence         12                    12
    Wisdom                8                     8
    Charisma              8                    11
    
    Tomes Used
    +1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 8
    +1 Tome of Charisma used at level 16
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
    Balance               6                    10
    Bluff                 3                     4
    Concentration         2                    10
    Diplomacy            -1                     0
    Disable Device        5                    24
    Haggle                2                     3
    Heal                 -1                    -1
    Hide                  2                     3
    Intimidate           -1                     0
    Jump                  7                    11
    Listen               -1                    -1
    Move Silently         6                     8
    Open Lock             6                     7
    Perform              n/a                   23
    Repair                1                     1
    Search                5                    25
    Spot                  3                    23
    Swim                  3                     5
    Tumble                3                     4
    Use Magic Device      3                    27
    
    {\b {\ul Notable Equipment }} \par Charismatic +3 Cloak \par Charismatic +5 Ring \par  \par Level 1 (Rogue)
    Skill: Balance (+4)
    Skill: Bluff (+4)
    Skill: Disable Device (+4)
    Skill: Haggle (+3)
    Skill: Jump (+4)
    Skill: Move Silently (+4)
    Skill: Open Lock (+4)
    Skill: Search (+4)
    Skill: Spot (+4)
    Skill: Tumble (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
    Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot
    Feat: (Human Bonus) Power Attack
    Feat: (Automatic) Archer's Focus
    Feat: (Automatic) Attack
    Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
    Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
    Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
    Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
    Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack
    Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding
    
    
    Level 2 (Ranger)
    Skill: Concentration (+2)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
    Feat: (Automatic) Bow Strength
    Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
    Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
    Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
    Feat: (Automatic) Trip
    Feat: (Automatic) Wild Empathy
    
    
    Level 3 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+6)
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    Feat: (Automatic) Dismiss Charm
    Feat: (Automatic) Fascinate
    Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Courage
    
    
    Level 4 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+3)
    
    
    Level 5 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Competence
    
    
    Level 6 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 7 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 8 (Ranger)
    Ability Raise: DEX
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Skill: Search (+2)
    Skill: Spot (+3)
    Feat: (Automatic) Rapid Shot
    Feat: (Automatic) Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 9 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+2)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
    Feat: (Selected) Manyshot
    Feat: (Automatic) Suggestion
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
    Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
    Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I
    Enhancement: Human Adaptability Charisma I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
    Enhancement: Human Versatility I
    Enhancement: Human Versatility II
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
    Enhancement: Improved Search I
    Enhancement: Improved Spot I
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II
    Enhancement: Ranger Devotion I
    Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
    Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I
    
    
    Level 10 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 11 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Automatic) Improved Inspire Courage
    
    
    Level 12 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Balance (+3)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+2)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    Feat: (Automatic) Evasion
    
    
    Level 13 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Greatness
    
    
    Level 14 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 15 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 16 (Bard)
    Enhancement Reset
    Feat Swap
    Level 6 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
    
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Automatic) Song of Freedom
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
    Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III
    Enhancement: Bard Spellsinger I
    Enhancement: Bard Spellsinger II
    Enhancement: Human Adaptability Charisma I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
    Enhancement: Human Versatility I
    Enhancement: Human Versatility II
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
    Enhancement: Improved Concentration I
    Enhancement: Improved Concentration II
    Enhancement: Improved Search I
    Enhancement: Improved Spot I
    Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song II
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic III
    Enhancement: Ranger Devotion I
    Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
    Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II
    Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music III
    Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
    Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I
    
    
    
    Level 17 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 18 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 19 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Heroics
    
    
    Level 20 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Enhancement Reset
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack III
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III
    Enhancement: Bard Spellsinger I
    Enhancement: Bard Spellsinger II
    Enhancement: Human Adaptability Charisma I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery III
    Enhancement: Human Versatility I
    Enhancement: Human Versatility II
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
    Enhancement: Improved Concentration I
    Enhancement: Improved Concentration II
    Enhancement: Improved Search I
    Enhancement: Improved Spot I
    Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song II
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic III
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic IV
    Enhancement: Ranger Devotion I
    Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
    Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II
    Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music III
    Enhancement: Bard Charisma I

    Hm, Spellsinger does have slightly annoying prerequisites for this build too. I wonder...

    (And the planner doesn't seem to handle respecs gracefully, I'm not sure how readable that was. And there's something up with the formatting for the equipment section...)
    Last edited by mna; 06-18-2013 at 06:40 AM.

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