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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    Counter point: for a first life toon, pumping DC doesn't result in a worth while increase in offense at epic levels.
    In EE GH, probably not. But EH? Older EE content? It's been a LONG time since I've ran a first-life toon, so I can't say from personal experience, but I strongly suspect that there's quite a bit of content where a first-life toon can get usable DCs, and where each additional point of DC makes a difference. Without giving up the option to Light-nuke.

    But I'm not saying Light-nuke-only-types are bad or ineffective, or that everyone should be a DC-caster. Build and play what you find fun, of course. I just challenged the claim that dumping DCs is stronger offensively, and haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    And what twists do you have... you cut that portion out.
    They are not set in stone. I can twist in whatever I need to depending on what I'm running.

    DCs...survival...damage...spell pen...whatever.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    In EE GH, probably not. But EH? Older EE content? It's been a LONG time since I've ran a first-life toon, so I can't say from personal experience, but I strongly suspect that there's quite a bit of content where a first-life toon can get usable DCs, and where each additional point of DC makes a difference. Without giving up the option to Light-nuke.

    But I'm not saying Light-nuke-only-types are bad or ineffective, or that everyone should be a DC-caster. Build and play what you find fun, of course. I just challenged the claim that dumping DCs is stronger offensively, and haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise.
    Why spend SP to kill something you can kill for free or nearly free? What DC spell is there that can one shot as many things for 30 mana as energy burst? I'm not saying DC casting it not great once you get there, but it is a long path to build it up.

    If you are in content easy enough that a first life was going to get the DC to instakill something... boulder toss was going to do the same thing for zero mana.
    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    They are not set in stone. I can twist in whatever I need to depending on what I'm running.

    DCs...survival...damage...spell pen...whatever.
    And I think the twists are the #1 spot where "dumping DCs" for direct damage SLAs provide a measurable increase in offense. Those three twist slots can give you energy burst, boulder toss and wild shot. Unless your DCs are sky high, I think that is better offense than what the DCs offer. The numbers are documented in my NovaSoul link in my sig.

  3. #43
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    I know what I done, and don't have to prove anything to you. You might notice I never even made some claim about any specific build being better than or worse than your little Jug build. I certainly notice you don't ever provide the link to the proof of all the amazing things you've done, after coming to the FvS forum to dis FvS, even though you're the one so set on proving which build is better than the other.

    You're the one coming on to the FvS forum with the sarcasm and insults and snide remarks and holier-than-thou ****.



    If you want to actually convince anyone of anything, A) show YOUR work, and B), stop being such a jerk. But of course, I suspect you're just trolling and waving your e-peen, so I don't actually expect to see any helpful, mature responses out of you.

    Look in the achievement forum. You have maybe half a dozen arcanes soloing EE GH, one guy even soloed EE FOT on Lammania (without using certain bugs). And there are a bunch of AAs soloing tons of hard content too.

    You have a handful of divines in the achievement section soloing some mediocre EEs, but as far as I'm aware, no divine has successfully soloed EE Tor with dragons or FoT. And if they have it's obviously a much more amazing achievement due to lower DPS. Have you done any of these things on a FvS? Personally, I've soloed every 6 man EE since MOTU and FoT on EN.

    I don't need to prove which build is better; you just need to open your eyes. My main was a completionist FvS for a very long time. Until you can show or even just claim a divine being able to perform at the same level as other builds, it's axiomatic that divines are currently not as good!

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    I don't need to prove which build is better...
    Really? Since you come here with the disparaging remarks about how much the OP's build sucks, and then about how every FvS sucks, if anyone needs to prove anything, it's you. Or go just away, since you're not contributing anything useful to the discussion. Though I expect you'll just keep throwing baseless insults around at people you don't think are as uber as you.

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    Until you can show or even just claim a divine being able to perform at the same level as other builds, it's axiomatic that divines are currently not as good!
    Oh, now you're backing way, WAY off, I see. What happened to "worthless" and "gimp" and "simply not good"? Now it's just not *AS* good! Larry Page is currently not AS rich as Bill Gates, either.

    I said in the beginning that I think your percentile-versus-other-builds definitions were silly. And still do. You are the one who cares about trying to measure different builds against each other. I don't.

    Can I run stuff and get it done? Yes. Can lots of other folks, too, on lots of different builds? Yes. Could the OP's build? Maybe, sure.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Really? Since you come here with the disparaging remarks about how much the OP's build sucks, and then about how every FvS sucks, if anyone needs to prove anything, it's you. Or go just away, since you're not contributing anything useful to the discussion. Though I expect you'll just keep throwing baseless insults around at people you don't think are as uber as you.
    For a second time, please cut it out. AM provided the list of what he/she considers the top builds, as well as a list of achievements to test competitor builds. That IS useful information to me. You on the other hand, are posting responses that do nothing but insult another rather than answer specific questions such as...

    Do you still think that a first life toon is better served on offense by using twists to increase DCs rather than for direct damage SLAs.

    I'll agree AM comes across as a little rude... but your quote above does too.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    Do you still think that a first life toon is better served on offense by using twists to increase DCs rather than for direct damage SLAs.
    I think ANY toon is better served by swapping super-easy-to-swap things like gear and twists on a case-by-base basis.

    Edit: so, yes, in some cases, no in others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    I'll agree AM comes across as a little rude... but your quote above does too.
    A little, eh?

    If I have been rude to YOU, or the OP, or anyone who responded to HELP the OP rather than belittle them, I apologize.

    And so you noticed me being rude BACK to him, yup, sure enough. Guilty as charged.
    Last edited by SirValentine; 06-25-2013 at 03:56 PM. Reason: Added clarification

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    I think ANY toon is better served by swapping super-easy-to-swap things like gear and twists on a case-by-base basis.
    I can't disagree with that.

    And I can respect the rest of your post. I also have an urge to bear paw bullies and rude people. Trying to work on that myself. My apologies as well if I was heavy handed in how I handled that.

  8. #48
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Oh, now you're backing way, WAY off, I see. What happened to "worthless" and "gimp" and "simply not good"? Now it's just not *AS* good! Larry Page is currently not AS rich as Bill Gates, either.

    Can I run stuff and get it done? Yes. Can lots of other folks, too, on lots of different builds? Yes. Could the OP's build? Maybe, sure.
    "Not as good" doesn't mean that a thing is only slightly worse. For example, I am "not as rich as bill gates." In fact, I have significantly less money than bill gates. The same comparison goes with divines in the current meta game. Divines are significantly worse than the most powerful current builds. I know that lots of builds are capable of completing challenging content, but soloing the hardest content is different beast, especially if you're looking to complete in a timely manner.

    The easiest examples I can think of are EE Tor and FoT. In EE Tor, you'd be very hard pressed in blue dragon because of the fast trap damage ramp and associated DPS requirement. A high DPS melee divine with evasion/60 reflex in FOTW may be able to do it, but this build is not it. Caster FvS generally do not have enough DPS, and even with evasion you'll eventually die (yes, even with stacked absorb).

    In FoT you have a red name boss with massive HP. So while I can see a divine doing this raid, it's going to take a lot lot longer.

    And in fact, this is pretty much reflected in the achievement section. I don't see a single divine that has soloed either of these quests. And even if someone posted an achievement tomorrow, there are still dozens of other builds that have done it sooner and do it faster.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    "Not as good" doesn't mean that a thing is only slightly worse. For example, I am "not as rich as bill gates." In fact, I have significantly less money than bill gates. The same comparison goes with divines in the current meta game. Divines are significantly worse than the most powerful current builds...
    I was considering re-investing in this game. You've helped me make up my mind -- I'll move on. Thanks for helping with the decision-making process, and enjoy your elitist rhetoric for as long as the ride will last.

    It seems pretty sad that a game with so many character build choices and customizations is once again limited by the acceptance of a handful of "optimum" builds by the community.

  10. #50
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    If you can wait a bit to build your toon, what about trying this one:

    Purple Dragon Knight 17 FvS 2 Pal 1 Ftr

    Con and Cha maxed, level up on cha. That build uses cha for damage with an Esos and doble that damage with the new Divine Might from Pal.

    Also you are getting a lot Sp going cha based and godly saves too.

    Feat: PA, cleave, great cleave, tough, emp, max, quicken, ic: slash. Epic feat: etough, OC

    You're welcome

  11. #51
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taarakhan View Post
    I was considering re-investing in this game. You've helped me make up my mind -- I'll move on. Thanks for helping with the decision-making process, and enjoy your elitist rhetoric for as long as the ride will last.

    It seems pretty sad that a game with so many character build choices and customizations is once again limited by the acceptance of a handful of "optimum" builds by the community.
    You realize that folks are talking about minmaxing for the hardest content, right? And minmaxing has always been its own mini-game, in a way. I mean, move on if you want, but there is life outside of EEs, despite what the more OCD players might tell you...

  12. #52
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taarakhan View Post
    I was considering re-investing in this game. You've helped me make up my mind -- I'll move on. Thanks for helping with the decision-making process, and enjoy your elitist rhetoric for as long as the ride will last.

    It seems pretty sad that a game with so many character build choices and customizations is once again limited by the acceptance of a handful of "optimum" builds by the community.
    Great! Glad I could help. The last thing this community needs is another carebear informing the game direction. One need only look at the current state to realize how much damage fanboys and casuals alike have done by praising poor decisions.

    I wish you look in whatever greener pastures you can find, whether it's candy crush or plants vs zombies.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    ...whether it's candy crush or plants vs zombies.
    Do you even realize that's the exact gaming environment you're encouraging? That games are becoming face-roll with practically no individuality of characters? Why should they bother if there's only a handful of min-max builds in the end? Just toss in a handful of cookie cutters and call it good...

    I'll stick with Eve Online -- there are still meaningful choices there. And Rift seems to have intelligent debates about their choices in a highly configurable build environment. They just got my subscription, too.

    Enjoy living your troll life under the DDO bridge while it's still there.

  14. #54
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    Default FVS shiradi evoker / thrower option

    I have a 2nd life FVS. All I do with him is heal raids and the occasional other epic content if bored. I run him in Shiradi constantly, with whirling wrists x3, pin, ottos, double rainbow, healing spring. I twist in Avenging Light, Boulder Toss and Brace for Impact. I have healed EE FOTS this setup, and solo healed EH FOTs. First, I like the build a lot because:

    1. I really don't like being a "healing stick" standing there not able to defend myself, CC or take care of trash if needed.

    2. Go grind out a "spell touched" thrower or two or three from Eveningstar, and your FVS in Sharadi is all of the sudden dealing some interesting damage in combination with your double rainbow Blade Barriers, Comet Fall, Holy Smite, etc.. It is not a Barb or a Shiradi Wiz, but it is dealing some nice damage. Pin and Ottos means you can selectively crowd control which is nice for EE GH stuff like TOR and POP. Your Blade barriers can take care of a LOT of trash in FOT when you are in Shiradi. Healing Spring can save you a TON of SP that you can use on other things.

    3. You have a spell touched thrower, avenging light, boulder toss. You are no Monkcher but you do deal a decent amount of ranged damage. And all of that damage is pretty much "free" SP.

    Gear: Well grind out a blue helm, blue robe or docent (take to tier III for the major arcane lore which is very nice), Gauntlets of Immortality, Jeweled Cloak, EE Shamatic Fetish ( I was using the EN version for a long time actually just upgraded), an EE Bullwurk Shield (can slot with fire, force for shiradi procs). Have not gotten the twilight on this toon but would probably never use it anyway since I am throwing all the time.

    Build: I built the toon for lvling and went WIS/CON/ then STR heavy...and dumped CHA and went HELF FTR dillantte. If I get a chance to LR I will dump STR, go WIS/CON/CHA heavy, HELF Pali Dillante, with whatever I can afford into DEX for throwing to-hit bonus. Feats were pretty standard FVS evoker stuff + epic toughness, nothing special.

    It is a really fun build to play. Can heal/buff party adequately on EE. On EH or EN content you just play as a pure evoker its a lot of fun.
    RTFM on Khyber, Toy Soldiers.

    Toy Soldiers PD Roll Builds Guild on Wayfinder.

  15. #55
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taarakhan View Post
    Do you even realize that's the exact gaming environment you're encouraging? That games are becoming face-roll with practically no individuality of characters? Why should they bother if there's only a handful of min-max builds in the end? Just toss in a handful of cookie cutters and call it good...

    I'll stick with Eve Online -- there are still meaningful choices there. And Rift seems to have intelligent debates about their choices in a highly configurable build environment. They just got my subscription, too.

    Enjoy living your troll life under the DDO bridge while it's still there.
    Are you seriously looking down on others from the high pedastal of Eve online? LOL you just made my day. Honestly, thank you.

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