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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    I have tried an evoker build with maxed wisdom including a +5 wis tome. The wis dumped build using Avenging Light+Divine Wrath+Energy burst is stronger offensively and defensively both
    Sure, maxxing out Charisma with the Pally splash will give you better saves, i.e., defenses.

    But you're going to have to break it down to me in really small, simple steps if you want me to buy that dumping Wis is somehow stronger offensively.

    You realize someone with a high Wisdom can still use that same Avenging Light+Divine Wrath+Energy burst stuff, while ALSO being able to cast credible CC or instakills? How is having the same offensive options plus MORE offensive options inferior offensively?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    has more mana
    Yeah, pumping up Cha wil give you a bit more SP. As will dumping feats into Mental Toughness.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    Okay, but seriously if you're dead set on being a FvS, it's not terrible. 17 levels is obviously required for wings
    OP did say they were running in EA, so "17 for Wings" is useless. You get wings for free as part of EA.

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    ...but beyond that level 9 spells are pretty worthless.
    Do you actually play divines? One of the best DPS spells in the game is worthless?

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    A successful build should be in the 95th percentile of power. Therefore, it's a bit axiomatic that most builds cannot be successful, by definition.
    That's the most foolish definition I've heard in a while.

    Results matter. Silly little "my e-peen is bigger than your e-peen" games do not.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    But you're going to have to break it down to me in really small, simple steps if you want me to buy that dumping Wis is somehow stronger offensively.
    It is far more than just dumping wis. It is dumping wis, the evocation DC/spell pen feats and enhancements and then redirecting that towards improving offense that works in the current EE environment. Part of the resources that are freed up improve the direct damage based offense, other parts go towards survival because dead offense is no offense (at least now that Shiradi has been changed).

    Yes, a multiple past life build with the very highest end gear can get to "ok" level performance in content that a first life build could do with lower quality gear.

  5. #25
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    OP did say they were running in EA, so "17 for Wings" is useless. You get wings for free as part of EA.



    Do you actually play divines? One of the best DPS spells in the game is worthless?
    Apparently, you don't play end game. 17 for wings is obvious, because as a melee divine (as I suggested instead), you won't be in EA.

    Implosion is not "one of the best DPS spells in the game." It's absolutely worthless in EE GH Tor, and from the looks of it, things will be worse when the expansion comes out in August and level cap raise means things will have even more inflated saves.

    From the looks of it, you're sorely out of the loop. You shouldn't assume that things are the same as they were in U14, things have changed drastically. It's more than obvious that the 18/2 CHA based paladin splash is probably the current strongest caster type divine. However, my claim was that a caster type divine is simply not good anymore.

    That's the most foolish definition I've heard in a while.

    Results matter. Silly little "my e-peen is bigger than your e-peen" games do not.
    You're right, absolutely results matter. Take your divine and try out the following, in order of increasing difficulty:

    Solo:
    -EE Thorn and paw end fight
    -EE Belly of the beast (30 mins)
    -EE PoP with beholder and lailat rooms (40 mins)
    -EE Tor (1h30m)
    -FoT EN or higher (30 mins) without relying on certain bugs

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    It is far more than just dumping wis. It is dumping wis, the evocation DC/spell pen feats and enhancements and then redirecting that towards improving offense that works in the current EE environment. Part of the resources that are freed up improve the direct damage based offense
    Thanks for vague generalities. It's the same claim, but still with nothing to support it. I'm not saying it's false, or that I can't be convinced, but:

    you're going to have to break it down to me in really small, simple steps
    Please be specific. *HOW* does a Wis-dumped build get whatever amazing more offense you're hinting at?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    Apparently, you don't play end game.
    Oh, it's apparent, is it? LOL.

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    17 for wings is obvious, because as a melee divine (as I suggested instead), you won't be in EA.
    So...you're saying it was a meaningless non sequitur to the OP's desire to build a light-nuker? OK then. I'm not going to argue with irrelevancies.

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    Implosion is not "one of the best DPS spells in the game."
    So? Did somebody claim it was? If you're unfamiliar with the divine spell list, you can look it up on the DDO Wiki.

    Also, Implosion is far from worthless, even in EE Tor.

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    my claim was that a caster type divine is simply not good anymore.
    I think your claim is silly. But, regardless, if you feel that way, why are you here trolling the FvS forum?
    Last edited by SirValentine; 06-24-2013 at 05:13 PM. Reason: fixed typo

  8. #28
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Oh, it's apparent, is it? LOL.



    So...you're saying it was a meaningless non sequitur to the OP's desire to build a light-nuker? OK then. I'm not going to argue with irrelevancies.



    So? Did somebody claim it was? If you're unfamiliar with the divine spell list, you can look it up on the DDO Wiki.

    Also, Implosion is far from worthless, even in EE Tor.



    I think your claim is silly. But, regardless, if you feel that way, why are you here trolling the FvS forum?
    This discussion is just going to go in circles. Just show what you've done with your exalted angel FvS in the hardest content. If FvS/EA is so awesome like you say it is, solo TOR dragons and solo FOT should be easy accomplishments for you.

    As you said, RESULTS MATTER. SO SHOW THEM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    This discussion is just going to go in circles. Just show what you've done...
    I know what I done, and don't have to prove anything to you. You might notice I never even made some claim about any specific build being better than or worse than your little Jug build. I certainly notice you don't ever provide the link to the proof of all the amazing things you've done, after coming to the FvS forum to dis FvS, even though you're the one so set on proving which build is better than the other.

    You're the one coming on to the FvS forum with the sarcasm and insults and snide remarks and holier-than-thou ****.

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    Tell the noobs to BYOH. Then you don't have to play a gimp build!

    I would play a FvS splashed with 16 levels of arti, 2 levels of monk and 2 levels of ranger.

    level 9 spells are pretty worthless

    playing a divine class is gimp

    Apparently, you don't play end game

    you're sorely out of the loop

    my claim was that a caster type divine is simply not good anymore

    If you want to actually convince anyone of anything, A) show YOUR work, and B), stop being such a jerk. But of course, I suspect you're just trolling and waving your e-peen, so I don't actually expect to see any helpful, mature responses out of you.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Please be specific. *HOW* does a Wis-dumped build get whatever amazing more offense you're hinting at?
    Hmmm, I guess what you are asking for is a guide to "a light based epic FVS build"... Look a little closer

    I break it down by the numbers and talk through a lot of options.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    I certainly notice you don't ever provide the link to the proof of all the amazing things you've done, after coming to the FvS forum to dis FvS, even though you're the one so set on proving which build is better than the other.

    You're the one coming on to the FvS forum with the sarcasm and insults and snide remarks and holier-than-thou ****.
    That doesn't help... Yes, AM is a little abrasive, but the posts do provide information. If you run them off then you are simply shutting off one source of information.

    I'm one of the champions of DD FVS builds, and I have to admit it does not have the offense of a Shiradi. If you are looking for something that can heal raids and isn't helpless on its own and doesn't have the best gear or past lives... it is one of the best builds (IMO). That is a narrow niche, but it serves a purpose.

  12. #32
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    FvS can be built in so many different ways from Melee to Range to DC focus.

    I lament that DC requirements of Epic Elite Quests like GH have been blown out of proportion due to the CR to HD conversion currently being used. While I am all for requiring Debuff's at the highest level to increase effectiveness, it should not require 5+ Energy Drains to get a 50/50 shot especially with a 50+ DC spell school.

    The problem that the current system has made is the DC casting is not as cost efficient as nuke casting at the EE level. The Sharadi Champion ED has also added in some Crowd Control options that builds like the Juggernaut can take better advantage of than a FvS due to the number of different and fast attack options (Repeating Crossbow w/Endless Fuselage and Many Shot for example)

    I personally have a lot of fun in EE content on my FvS and while the groups I run with don't finish quests in record time, we do finish without struggling to do so.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    Hmmm, I guess what you are asking for is a guide to "a light based epic FVS build"... Look a little closer

    I break it down by the numbers and talk through a lot of options.
    Where's that, your by-the-numbers stuff? I don't see it in this thread.

    But I do have some idea of Light-based FvS. And I've seen a number of builds that are Cha- or Con-based, and spend all their feats on Toughness and Mental Toughness stuff.

    But none of that actually gives them any more Light DPS than a Wis-based that takes Heighten and Spell Focus, etc.. I don't see how going for DCs forces you to give up any substantial amount of Light DPS, or how ignoring DCs gets you substantially more Light DPS. I would be interested in any concrete ways ignoring DCs gets more Light DPS, not just more spell points.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Where's that, your by-the-numbers stuff? I don't see it in this thread.
    The NovaSoul link in my sig... on each and every post I make.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    I would be interested in any concrete ways ignoring DCs gets more Light DPS,
    not just more spell points.
    It isn't very complex, although Light DPS is just a portion. If you pursue DC's then your going to be in a DC oriented epic destiny and have twists to support that. A DD build can be in EA, twist in energy burst, toss boulder and wild shot. Yes, you could do this in a wisdom build... but then you didn't gain much for your wisdom, and you further limit the effectiveness of your DC capabilities.

    The bar for worth while DCs has been raised so high that it isn't worth the effort. Put the enhancements into the full smiting line and the rest into survival. Dead FVS don't have DPS. You also need to look past DPS, in EEs and tougher content, efficiency is an important consideration. If toss boulder kills something for free, where is the wisdom in spending 50+ spell points to do the same thing?

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    Perhaps in the future if traditional DPS classes like barbarian or fighter gain significant DPS features this will change, but given the enhancement previews I sincerely doubt it.
    Playing a 16/2/2 paladin made me want to kill myself.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    I find the epic irony in the above paragraph very amusing. For the longest time, BYOH was stigmatized as intentionally gimping a character. Eventually, it was shown and accepted that in some quests, a team of self-sufficient toons working together could accomplish the task faster. Now we have reached the point where a very credible source is stating that this also extends to raids.... and quite frankly, I don't see a strong counter argument based on game mechanics.

    The social arguments, I'll sum up with the following: There are now enough BYOH players that choosing to exclude them is just as exclusionary as a byoh player excluding a non-self-sufficient toon.
    it's not faster, it really isn't. Take 4 max-DPS barbs/kensais, a bard, and a hjealbot into some EEs some time. This is typically NOT how we roll (we're usually on our self-sufficient toons) but sometimes we want to try something different. 5 toons with ESoS cleaving is just a weed-whacker of death.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Where's that, your by-the-numbers stuff? I don't see it in this thread.
    ~500 sp and 3% crit/0.25 on crit damage if you don't have tier 3 blue or Rahkir( still lol) for throwing away your spellbook . Superior lore on shield, that is.
    But you sure know that (I mean, you might have one of the strongest completionist fvs/clerics in game/server, so what the heck do you know about fvs ? )

    You won't get by-the-numbers stuff.
    Every good divine took smiting lines when we got DP, that was when ? Spring 2011 ?
    Then there was that hysterical "Chilled" thread about totally new light build.

    ~ 17- 20+ saves with 2 pally is no joke, but pure ? I have one of these, but I have no illusions i can do something worthwile or contribute " awesome dps".
    While my main is tring.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    It isn't very complex
    OK...then I stand by my original contention: dumping DCs on a caster FvS does not in any way get you any better offense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    If you pursue DC's then your going to be in a DC oriented epic destiny
    There is only one Epic Destiny that gives a FvS both Wisdom and caster levels. What "DC oriented" ED do you think a FvS caster is going to be in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    Yes, you could do this in a wisdom build... but then you didn't gain much for your wisdom, and you further limit the effectiveness of your DC capabilities.
    I have no idea what that means. What I gain for my Wisdom is higher DCs. I don't know why you think that "further" limits effectiveness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    Put the enhancements into the full smiting line...
    Weren't people already doing that even before Epic Destinies existed in this game?

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veles View Post
    ~500 sp and 3% crit/0.25 on crit damage if you don't have tier 3 blue or Rahkir( still lol)
    Heh, I used to use the Rahkir's set, back in the day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veles View Post
    Every good divine took smiting lines when we got DP, that was when ? Spring 2011 ?
    Update 9. Same time as the Epic changes, if I remember correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veles View Post
    ~ 17- 20+ saves with 2 pally is no joke
    Oh sure. And I never argued against that going for saves was worthwhile. Just the contention that ignoring DCs somehow made a FvS stronger OFFENSIVELY.
    Last edited by SirValentine; 06-25-2013 at 11:27 AM. Reason: Fixed confusing phrasing

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    OK...then I stand by my original contention: dumping DCs on a caster FvS does not in any way get you any better offense.
    Counter point: for a first life toon, pumping DC doesn't result in a worth while increase in offense at epic levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    There is only one Epic Destiny that gives a FvS both Wisdom and caster levels. What "DC oriented" ED do you think a FvS caster is going to be in?
    And what twists do you have... you cut that portion out.

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