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  1. #1
    Community Member hirmor's Avatar
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    Default A proposal for the "EPIC XP and EPIC TRing debate"

    So we have a new debate on our hands... And I have a suggestion.

    For those whom have not read hours of posting on the forum, let me simplify:

    Turbine is proposing (and it will likely be implemented as is or not too differently) that upon EPIC TRing, at level 28 (which will be quite a few million xp more) a player would lose all ED xp/level save for one (1) ED per TR'ing (each additional TR'ing allowing a player to add another "saved" ED), in exchange for Heroics ranks (ie starting next live higher and higher every EPIC TR).

    My opinion... This post is not about my opinion! It is about ALL of the players that have maxed out all ED's under the current system... And it is also about all the other players that have simply done more than maxing one (1) ED... Under the current proposal, they would ALL lose all but one (1) ED upon EPIC TR'ing.

    For those who like numbers, eleven (11) maxed out ED is 21,780,000 xp. That's 18,780,000 above the level 25 cap, which is the natural xp cap atm.

    How to re-conciliate the two? Turbine's proposal and 18,780,000 ED xp loss?!?

    Well, what of an xp credit of some sort?

    A bit like the xp granted to ICONICS (ie the system to grant "free xp" has been in existence since Turbine introduced Veteran status)... Grant ALL players, upon their first EPIC TR, a one-time xp credit equal to the amount of EPIC xp they have accumulated above 3,000,000!

    For some, this might allow them to reach lvl 10, or 18 or even maybe level 25... Some may have enough xp for hit level 28 (unless it requires a gazillion xp to reach... who knows lol).

    What concrete examples?

    Joe Blow, the first liver half-orc barbarian, has reached level 25 (3,000,000 xp)... he also earned, doing ED other than Fury of the Wild, 6,000,000 xp.

    Joe Blow purchases Shadowfell expansion and early September 2013 finally reaches level 28, after earning 3,600,000 additional EPIC xp.

    Joe Blow decides to reincarnate using the EPIC TR system, and not the Heroic TR system... He selects Fury of the Wild has his EPIC ED for TR purpose (thus earning a Fury of the Wild TR feat as proposed by Turbine)...

    Upon completing his TR, Joe Blow appears on the skyship... With a credit of 6,000,000xp from his "lost ED's"...

    So what does that translate into? 3,139,250 will level Joe Blow to Heroic level 20 (second life)... and then he will have enough to reach level 24 Epic, a little short of level 25...

    That's it for Joe Blow!!!

    BUT what of Uberfred the Warforged Sorcerer who has maxed out ALL ED's? Does he get a 18,780,000 xp credit? If so, what does this translate into? Let's do the math for Uberfred. Assume he is also a first lifer.

    First EPIC TR... Level 20? 3,139,250xp... Level 25? Another 3,000,000... Now comes the good part... Level 28? Using Turbine progression curve for 20-25, level 26 will likely require 1,050,000xp, level 27 1,200,000xp and 1,350,000xp... So Uberfred will have used 9,739,250 to reach level 28... AND that's based on the assumption that Turbine will not apply an increase to exp requirements for level 20 to 28 for second and third lifers... which they may very do. If they do, Uberfred might just have enough to get a free ride to level 28 ONCE, and nothing else.

    If Turbine does not curve up level 20-28 xp requirements, Uberfred will have 9,040,750xp left... And Uberfred can do a second EPIC TR.

    Second EPIC TR... Level 20? 4,378,500xp (third life)... Level 25? Another 3,000,000 (assuming no increase in xp requirements for 20-28)... Uberfred has 1,662,250xp left... Enough to reach level 26 and half way to level 27... Again assuming no xp requirements increase by Turbine. Even with no xp requirements increase, no way can Uberfred get more than one (1) EPIC TR from all the xp accumulated maxing out ALL existing ED's in the game.

    CONCLUSION: A system like this one would result most likely, since Turbine is likely to increase xp requirements for levels 20 to 28 for TR'ed players, in a single "free" reincarnation (ie they would thus have two "saved" ED's and two EPIC feats) for players that maxed out ALL ED's. For many other players, those who may have maxed a few more ED's, it might result in a good boost toward a second EPIC TR... nothing more. NOT game breaking, and yet a fair acknowledgment of the "accumulated xp" that players would lose under Turbine's proposal.

    Anyway this is just an idea but I wanted to share it. I love this game. Since Beta. And would hate to see die due to players quitting because they feel cheated. I hope my suggestion, or any other suggestion, can hope solve this "necessary" transition to a bigger and, hopefully, better game.

  2. #2
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Is there really even a debate? All I saw was a thread on what they plan to do with the epic TR system, and a metric ton of "aww heel naaaw" style feedback similar to madstone boots debacle.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  3. #3
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Is there really even a debate? All I saw was a thread on what they plan to do with the epic TR system, and a metric ton of "aww heel naaaw" style feedback similar to madstone boots debacle.
    I agree... I'm still not 100% clear on if Heroic TR's in the proposed system will lose your ED progress... and the amount of teeth nashing over that the reality is probably buried in some thread somewhere.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    I agree... I'm still not 100% clear on if Heroic TR's in the proposed system will lose your ED progress... and the amount of teeth nashing over that the reality is probably buried in some thread somewhere.
    It will, a TR of ANY kind (as they are bringing new ones with the release) will steal away your epic destiny experience (save whatever one you have "bonded" with). The information isn't hidden somewhere deep in the thread.

    It is right in the original post here...

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-amp-Iconic-TR

    I'd recommend anyone who wants to join the "debate" to go check out Turbines official thread linked above and add in your voice. As Chai pointed out, it isn't really a debate more than Turbine saying "here is a big change we have planned" and virtually everyone saying "No" or "I like part of this, but no thanks to the probe to my self respect."

  5. #5
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    To add to my above post....

    The dev's haven't said anything else on the subject in their official thread. So far, all the information they have given is included in the original post. Not a lot to read, and adding your voice to the thread would be fantastic.

    Oh wait, sorry, there was a Dev response in that read, but all they said was "Play nice" No new info.

  6. #6
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    It’s really simple.

    Turbine could invest money into the game and make content for us to run to keep our attention for a while. They don’t believe in putting money back in the game so we go to number two.

    Turbine could invest money into making more ED’s for us to grind out. Once again, they do not believe in this so we will go to the next option.

    Turbine could simply reset our ED xp back to zero and have us grind it over and over again. This costs almost nothing, and they hope that we will jump on board.

    Turbine sees that we are angry so they must decide what to do. Their answer: “Dangle a carrot and tell them that if they make an epic completionist that they will get an extra feat and a giraffe companion”.

    Turbine also knows that it may lose a person or two because of this, but what does it matter? They have to put zero back into giving us a grind and they are hoping that there are still some gullible people that are willing to buy into the cash grab that will keep the game afloat. Their answer is not to retain people, it is to keep the certain dollar amount the same. They could care less if it is a million people playing or 10,000. As long as they are meeting their certain financial quota, I really do not think they care.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    For me, this suggestion is only a little less bad then Turbine's.

    When I TR, I WANT to start at level 1. Going through the entire game's content (even for the 30th time) is fun. I don't 'grind' out lives as a chore, I do it when I get bored of endgame (I'd have more fun with new endgame content, but see Vint's comment above...) Whats not fun for me is grinding out epic destinies and running the same quests over and over...

    So turbines idea is to "let" me skip half the game's content; yours is to "let" me skip all of the game's content... so I can get back to grinding epic destinies sooner?

    No thanks.
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  8. #8
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuickSlick79 View Post
    To add to my above post....

    The dev's haven't said anything else on the subject in their official thread. So far, all the information they have given is included in the original post. Not a lot to read, and adding your voice to the thread would be fantastic.

    Oh wait, sorry, there was a Dev response in that read, but all they said was "Play nice" No new info.
    Yeah when I said "buried in some thread somewhere" I was talking about a clarification. I've read the initial post a couple times... enough times to say that it's very possible (even likely) they worded it poorly... In fact one little two letter word and the meaning changes significantly.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Yeah when I said "buried in some thread somewhere" I was talking about a clarification. I've read the initial post a couple times... enough times to say that it's very possible (even likely) they worded it poorly... In fact one little two letter word and the meaning changes significantly.
    Its actually very easy to see if they made a clarification, look at the Dev tracker. And they did - some guy named "Piloto" addressed a bunch of lesser issues and then said:

    "True Reincarnation has always been about giving up your current life in exchange for increased power in your next life. We are early enough in the design work that we want to also hear ideas from players on what types of destiny feats they’d like to see in their next life in exchange for reincarnating their destinies."

    Which seems to be an answer to losing EDs: he's saying yes, you always give up stuff for a TR. What we want to know is what you want in exchange.

    The problem remains: even if they come up with something that is worth exchanging for 1 ED, what are they going to do about people who have capped all EDs?

    And, are they going to refund the TP of players who purchased XP Pots, looms and keys in order to do their EDs?

  10. #10
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Its actually very easy to see if they made a clarification, look at the Dev tracker.
    I don't think it's unreasonable to have stopped looking at (or for) a dev tracker that's been broken/non-existent for weeks. None the less glad to know someone semi-sorta-didn't address this dust up... not sure it helps any.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    The problem remains: even if they come up with something that is worth exchanging for 1 ED, what are they going to do about people who have capped all EDs?
    Yup, exactly the problem. I have no problem giving up a Destiny's XP to get that Destiny's Past Life. But I should not have to give up 11 times as much XP as someone who only levelled one Destiny. I should not be punished for having put more effort in earlier.

  12. #12
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Yup, exactly the problem. I have no problem giving up a Destiny's XP to get that Destiny's Past Life. But I should not have to give up 11 times as much XP as someone who only levelled one Destiny. I should not be punished for having put more effort in earlier.
    Losing all destinies seems like way too much to me... but losing just one destiny seems way too little to me.... that's only 2 million xp; something you will easily get back when leveling back to 28.

  13. #13
    Community Member Atremus's Avatar
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    There have been a few suggestions on how to address the extra XP.

    1) more Fate points, take the ED XP but leave the spheres open

    2) Retain the XP to save it for the next TR Cycle

    3) I had a thought that we could convert that extra ED XP into Heroic PL's. The only big flaw in this proposal is that anyone with 3 PL's already still get punished and can't convert that XP into anything meaningful. A possible way around that would be to let people choose which PL (EDXP to PL store?)

    After the knee jerk reaction wore off I am now kind of interested to see what happens.
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  14. #14
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    From a KISS principle, the easiest thing to do would be to simply bank a chunk of XP per ED per toon during the transition to the new system. Then afterwards, if a prior player TRs and gets hit by the effects of the new TR rules, they get a one time XP bank (withdrawl only) to reward past effort say beyond 1 EDs, and the ability to re-spend their banked XP whenever they want in future lives. Now, if you planned on grabbing all ED TR benefits, you'd be able to apply your banked XP as optimally as maxing one ED per life and you wouldn't really have lost any XP (you would have lost only access to the ED until you applied the XP again). Such a bank wouldn't really break their new mechanics because you'd still wouldn't be able to respend the banked XP in just the next life and also keep all the max EDs and ED TR again.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    I don't think it's unreasonable to have stopped looking at (or for) a dev tracker that's been broken/non-existent for weeks. None the less glad to know someone semi-sorta-didn't address this dust up... not sure it helps any.
    It was broken, it was fixed a couple weeks ago.

  16. #16
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    IMO the right thing to do is to not force us to repeat the same epic destinies or levels but to allow us to have more ED levels and more destinies to move into. If the goal is to keep moving the bar to hold interest then maybe the bar should move instead of moving the floor around it.

  17. #17
    Community Member DynaTheCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post

    Turbine sees that we are angry so they must decide what to do. Their answer: “Dangle a carrot and tell them that if they make an epic completionist that they will get an extra feat and a giraffe companion”.
    Lol.... I do love giraffes tho....

  18. #18
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Heres your new giraffe companion.

    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  19. #19
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    No. I don't want future TRs to be shortcut based on the xp I have in my EDs (I -like- the low level quests and think they're better than what you have at 15-17). I want less fun EDs to have a shortcut, a partial exp% system for not leveling in them, and the ability to start level 20+ on future TRs in the right destiny with the right skills I unlocked, not six destinies over, from scratch.
    Last edited by locus; 06-14-2013 at 04:48 PM.

  20. #20
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    Frankly, since ED's were introduced I felt that keeping the ED xp after TR was not plausible.
    A new life starts at 0 xp. It never made any sense to me why "normal" xp and ED xp should be handled in different ways.

    Having a TR keep ED xp was a terrible mistake in the first place in my opinion. It should never have been that way. It was a terrible design mistake.

    However, since a lot of players were happily farming away to max out all their EDs, I understand they'd feel cheated by Turbine on going back from their explicit statement that ED xp will persist through TR. Technically (not legally) it's like a breach of contract.

    The lesson learned is: It's hard to correct something that was broken from the start after so many players have embraced the brokenness and relied on it staying broken.

    I think there's no way for Turbine to make this right anymore. There is no solution.

    But it's actually a rather harmless change compared to the changes likely to happen a month or two after SFC goes live. Like shutting down one or two servers permanently.

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