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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    If that last sentence is enough to make you feel better if they shut it down, or went into "bare minimum" mode, good for you.
    As it turns out, I don't make the rules either.

    I long ago came to accept where this game is headed, and that I really have no control over the result. I was displeased for a while, but then I realized that it is just a game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    I actually like the game enough that something like that would be very disappointing, IMO anyone who doesn't really care is either lying, or has just nothing whatever to do with their time than write about a game they don't care about, either way, pretty pathetic.
    I actually think it is interesting from a business standpoint to watch DDO unravel.

    A successful MMO is somewhat of a rarity. Watching DDO implode, primarily because of the actions of Turbine and its employees, is an even rarer opportunity. Where else would you get a front row seat, on a daily basis, to observe something like this? I don't even have to leave the comfort of my home. And yes, I feel absolutely no guilt about taking notes on the proceedings. I am just an observer.

    Aside from just the intellectual curiosity, I have a practical interest. Not only do I run my own consulting company now, but in the future I will be inheriting half of my parent's rather sizable business. Taking notes on all of the foolish things that Turbine does is certainly far less expensive than replicating those mistakes in my own (or my parent's) business.

    As since we are sharing notes about pathetic, IMO an adult who claims to have run a business himself getting emotional about something as meaningless as a computer game is pretty sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    if you don't buy new content fine, your choice, don't play the new content. Easy enough?
    Last time I checked, I wasn't allowed to play P2P content unless I bought it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    We're not talking about individual players, we're talking about a percentage of the entire user base.
    If a large percentage of the player base is opting out from paying, that should be a clear sign to Turbine that they need to rethink what they are doing.

    If all those people who are opting out have already purchased their content, the same rules apply. They owe Turbine nothing. Turbine sets the rules for the purchase, and some people accepted the terms offered to them. Part of running a business is being accountable, both for what works and for what does not work.

    If I were to write an overall critique of Turbine as a business, lack of accountability/responsibility, by the business as a whole and by a lot of the employees, would receive a lot of ink.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    And again, if they can replace the disaffected unhappy complainers who protest by loudly exclaiming they wont spend money; with a new player who MIGHT spend money, then it's a net win for them. "might" has a much higher profit margin than "never".

    Believe it or not these expansion packs have exactly that side effect, at least some people who wont pay will wander off, and the PR from the new pack will bring in new players. How much of which is anyone guess, but churn is a documented business tool. For the same reason Best Buy will throw away or bulk resale at pennies on the dollar perfectly good products to make room for new items on their shelves...
    I have no doubt that Turbine has reached the point where it is attempting to churn the customer base. They appear to be under a fair amount of financial stress. However, as you have noted in other posts, a successful MMO is based upon critical mass -- achieving it and maintaining it. Attempting to churn the customer base is essentially taking your status as a successful MMO and rolling the dice all over again. Which should remind everyone that a successful MMO is a rarity, the dice are loaded, and not in Turbine's favor.

  2. #182
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Sorry, but I dot feel sympathy for poorly run businesses. Not saying that Turbine is one or anything just that the priviledge and opportunities that America provides to business owners can not be understated. You sound like you just got out of business school me I work with in depth 40ish different businesses a year some as small as 5 employees and others as large as 100k employees and quite frankly I do not have a lot of sympathy for poorly run businesses in the United States.

    So if you are asking me to somehow emphasize with Turbine because DDO has made it as an MMO with the lucrative endorsement of Wizards of the Coast as the only Dungeons and Dragons MMO for the first 5+ years of existance. I am not going to do it.
    I have little business specific education (take the shot, go on: "well that much is obvious" yeah yeah whatever hahah good one). I have plenty of sole proprietor based on the job training, practical experience.

    Where did I appeal to anyone's emotions? Sympathy? I like playing DDO so I support my hobby by spending what I feel is often a pittance, at worst a kick ass value relative to other entertainment. No one said anything about sympathy... Although I'm sure we'll get at least one "DDO isn't a charity" comment before this discussion is over. The reality is if the game doesn't make money it goes out of business.

    BTW the poster who said basically MMO's can't go out of business? I'm not going to look for the post at this point, as I have opined myself out, but google city of heroes shut down... you're in for a rude awakening if you truly think an MMO can't shut down.
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 06-19-2013 at 03:32 PM.

  3. #183
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    How many of those "DYING to give their money to the game" are waiting on reasonable realistic design changes? What you don't know either? Well I assumed that since you seem "understand" that everyone's just holding back the money until they get what they want that you also "understand" what it is that they want

    As seems to be a common theme in this thread how are we determining that the disaffected are all just chomping at the bit to spend money? I'm sure some of them are that seems likely. maybe just as many that wont spend any more money at all, and the ones that simply claim to not spend any money but actually are. I'm also sure that some of the most vocal disaffected disenfranchised players are simply at the end of their ability to be entertained by the game and that seems likely as well. I've been one of those guys in previous MMO's so thats one of those "it takes one to know one" things.

    From reading here it seems obvious that a number of them also have "demands" that are utterly impossible/far fetched/wishfull... Getting them to throw money at the game by implementing a terrible idea (like get rid of Dungeon Alert or I'm never spending any more money; as an example) would have negative impact on the entire player base (increased lag and server resource based instability according to Turbine) how much money can they throw around to compensate for people leaving over that?
    So screw them all is the answer then. Throw out the wheat with the chaff. (think that is how it's spelled)

    No I'm not a psychic, no I don't speak for everyone who has ever complained, and no not all complaints are reasonable or need an emergency staff meeting for immediate solutions or the end of the world is upon us. Thanks for pointing that out for me.

    I guess keeping the lights on isn't as much of a worry for you as you let on. With so many disposable players around who cares about any of their concerns.

  4. #184
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Content instead of useless P2Win junk is an unrealistic expectation?

    Subjective, P2W junk... cool new feature I've always wanted. the difference between those is all subjective.

    I'd love a way to skip X levels... Otto's box? nah too expensive and swagged out with fluff items... Iconic Hero's.... Oh I'm all over those... Can't wait to build an INT based Assasin that has a leap/abundant step ability... and as much as I love Delera's and STK possibly my favorite quests in the game I can do without the early levels on a couple builds.

    P2W? What did I win? and who did I beat? Who fell victim to my merciless spending of my own money and how do they find out I bought a XP stone? Well Iconic's are obvious... but still who did I victimize?

    Fate tome? P2W? Or a nice convenience for those who don't grind as fast, so we can slot the twists we want a little earlier? But you can possibly twist in ONE more tier with a tome... until they add another ED at which point that wont be true...

    Whats P2W and how did it harm you or me? Bah never mind this thread is all over the place lol.
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 06-19-2013 at 03:51 PM.

  5. #185
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    I guess keeping the lights on isn't as much of a worry for you as you let on. With so many disposable players around who cares about any of their concerns.
    Those who don't pay also do not keep the lights on...

    Not screw them all... more like "sorry it didn't work out, but you can't please everyone all the time, and it's not realistic to try"
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 06-19-2013 at 03:57 PM.

  6. #186
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Subjective, P2W junk... cool new feature I've always wanted. the difference between those is all subjective.

    I'd love a way to skip X levels... Otto's box? nah too expensive and swagged out with fluff items... Iconic Hero's.... Oh I'm all over those... Can't wait to build an INT based Assasin that has a leap/abundant step ability... and as much as I love Delera's and STK possibly my favorite quests in the game I can do without the early levels on a couple builds.

    P2W? What did I win? and who did I beat? Who fell victim to my merciless spending of my own money and how do they find out I bought a XP stone? Well Iconic's are obvious... but still who did I victimize?

    Fate tome? P2W? Or a nice convenience for those who don't grind as fast, so we can slot the twists we want a little earlier? But you can possibly twist in ONE more tier with a tome... until they add another ED at which point that wont be true...

    Whats P2W and how did it harm you or me?
    Harm is irrelevent . . . if I don't need something from the store I don't buy it.

    The only thing I and many other are interested in is quests.

    Well . .. banks space too. I'd buy that, yet for some reason they won't sell it.

    Inconics? Could care less.

    Tomes? Have them already, no need to buy.

    I'll never buy an Otto's box. paying $40 to NOT play a game I like is retarded.

    Why do I not spend more money on DDO? There is nothing worth buying. Give us that and I'll spend.

    Seriously, I'll buy a 7th frigging inventory slot on 5 toons.

  7. #187
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Those who don't pay also do not keep the lights on...
    Again, not my problem. If said business cannot release enough products worth buying to enough customers needed to generate enough revenue to keep the game afloat then said business deserves to fail.

    Natural selection.

    I will not spend any more money on **** I do not want/need just to support something.

    That said . .. my sub is up in a few days . .. i think I'll renew it for a year. It'll be at least that long before this all crumbles to the ground and this way I get to give Turbine as little money as possible over that time period.

  8. #188
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Those who don't pay also do not keep the lights on...

    Not screw them all... more like "sorry it didn't work out, but you can't please everyone all the time, and it's not realistic to try"
    This is what you are saying to those who have paid. I don't think that you are addressing any here who haven't been paying to keep the lights one.

    "Sorry it didn't work out, but you can't please everyone all the time and it's not realistic to try" is a nice way of saying screw you.

    "Sorry we can't be held to our word in any way but we'd appreciate it if you'd continue to pay to keep our business running if not bugger off and we'll put the screws to someone else." Seems to be the gameplan you are in support of. I have to say I think that plan won't likely be getting a majority of support any time soon.

  9. #189
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    I have little business specific education (take the shot, go on: "well that much is obvious" yeah yeah whatever hahah good one). I have plenty of sole proprietor based on the job training, practical experience.

    Where did I appeal to anyone's emotions? Sympathy? I like playing DDO so I support my hobby by spending what I feel is often a pittance, at worst a kick ass value relative to other entertainment. No one said anything about sympathy... Although I'm sure we'll get at least one "DDO isn't a charity" comment before this discussion is over. The reality is if the game doesn't make money it goes out of business.

    BTW the poster who said basically MMO's can't go out of business? I'm not going to look for the post at this point, as I have opined myself out, but google city of heroes shut down... you're in for a rude awakening if you truly think an MMO can't shut down.
    I do not think any of us here want Turbine to go out of business. In my comments I am not trying to come off as a guy with an entitlement issue, I am simply pointing out what I would spend money on.

    I want to give Turbine money. I want them to prosper. I want to play this game for another 3 or so year. BUT, I am not going to just throw them money. Dollar for dollar this is the best entertainment value I have ever gotten out of a product. That is why I hope it stays around. The question is, will I still be here when the enhancement nerfs half my toons? Will I still find value when I see another bait/switch? Why throw them money when they are pushing people further and further from the game?
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  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post
    As it turns out, I don't make the rules either.

    I long ago came to accept where this game is headed, and that I really have no control over the result. I was displeased for a while, but then I realized that it is just a game.
    Once upon a time, I replied to a meta-complaint thread. The first post in the thread was complaining that everyone in the forums complained all the time and that we had a really negative community. In my reply, I said that all of those complaints were a good thing. It meant that the players cared enough about the game to get upset when they saw things that should be fixed or that Turbine could do better. I suggested that the time when Turbine would *really* have to worry was when players stop complaining because they just can't muster the enthusiasm needed to make a complaint on the forums.

    I've pretty much stopped complaining on the forums. So have all but a very few people who are willing to put up with the awful forums interface. Turbine can take from that what they will.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
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  11. #191
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Whats P2W and how did it harm you or me?
    For me, it kills the incentive for a lot of the game. If I win a bowling trophy, I'll put the trophy up on the wall and look at it every once in a while and think, "Yeah, I did that." I'm not going to drag the neighbors over to regale them about the time I won that bowling trophy and I'm not going to polish it up every time the grand kids come over, but it's still a nice symbol of something that has some meaning for me.

    If I go out and buy a trophy from the store, it doesn't have the same significance. And if the bowling league starts to sell their trophies to people instead of just handing them out for winning tournaments, then I'm going to value my trophy quite a bit less. And if the bowling league adds a requirement (even a soft requirement like a MyDDO style "gear check") that you must have a certain number of trophies to play, then I'll just leave the league. At this point, the metaphor is becoming a bit stretched, so I'll stop there.

    Once upon a time, I'd run a quest to get something shiny that I wanted. Now that pretty much everything is available for cash, I look at the shiny things and think, "meh".

    All of this is just one man's opinion. If "p2w" or the more accurate "pay2skip_content" doesn't bother you, that's fine. Enjoy the game. I'm glad someone can. I hope Turbine does well and has great success with their new business model. It's just a business model that doesn't appeal to me.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
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    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
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  12. #192
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    For me, it kills the incentive for a lot of the game. If I win a bowling trophy, I'll put the trophy up on the wall and look at it every once in a while and think, "Yeah, I did that." I'm not going to drag the neighbors over to regale them about the time I won that bowling trophy and I'm not going to polish it up every time the grand kids come over, but it's still a nice symbol of something that has some meaning for me.

    If I go out and buy a trophy from the store, it doesn't have the same significance. And if the bowling league starts to sell their trophies to people instead of just handing them out for winning tournaments, then I'm going to value my trophy quite a bit less. And if the bowling league adds a requirement (even a soft requirement like a MyDDO style "gear check") that you must have a certain number of trophies to play, then I'll just leave the league. At this point, the metaphor is becoming a bit stretched, so I'll stop there.

    Once upon a time, I'd run a quest to get something shiny that I wanted. Now that pretty much everything is available for cash, I look at the shiny things and think, "meh".

    All of this is just one man's opinion. If "p2w" or the more accurate "pay2skip_content" doesn't bother you, that's fine. Enjoy the game. I'm glad someone can. I hope Turbine does well and has great success with their new business model. It's just a business model that doesn't appeal to me.
    And this has greatly hurt the game, because now that 90% or more of the good loot is available to trade then people farm for stuff and then end up buying that last item or two to complete their gear rather than having to farm for EVERYTHING. Having good loot tradeable made it much easier to gear up, and once you are geared up epic content loses some of its allure... So you're faced with either TRing or running content that you won't get anything out of... And people who run lots of endgame stuff generally do not enjoy TRing, so ultimately they end up quitting until the next bit of content is released.

    Because many of these veterans quit, the average skill level of the population dropped significantly, to the point where EN webs are disasters on a fairly common basis now. Nobody runs EE pugs because most of the people who were capable either quit or just do their private shortman groups... So, newer players never learn how to do EE or acquire the gear for it, so they in turn end up getting bored and quitting.

    All in all, that is why having decent loot available on the AH is harmful for the health of the game. And since TP codes/Boxes are common-place bartering chips now, people can literally spend a hundred dollars and completely gear a toon. Only, why would you do that? Sure, running with pimped out gear is fun at first... But it quickly becomes dull once it sets in that you really have no reason, no goal to drive you.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    And this has greatly hurt the game, because now that 90% or more of the good loot is available to trade then people farm for stuff and then end up buying that last item or two to complete their gear rather than having to farm for EVERYTHING. Having good loot tradeable made it much easier to gear up, and once you are geared up epic content loses some of its allure... So you're faced with either TRing or running content that you won't get anything out of... And people who run lots of endgame stuff generally do not enjoy TRing, so ultimately they end up quitting until the next bit of content is released.

    Because many of these veterans quit, the average skill level of the population dropped significantly, to the point where EN webs are disasters on a fairly common basis now. Nobody runs EE pugs because most of the people who were capable either quit or just do their private shortman groups... So, newer players never learn how to do EE or acquire the gear for it, so they in turn end up getting bored and quitting.

    All in all, that is why having decent loot available on the AH is harmful for the health of the game. And since TP codes/Boxes are common-place bartering chips now, people can literally spend a hundred dollars and completely gear a toon. Only, why would you do that? Sure, running with pimped out gear is fun at first... But it quickly becomes dull once it sets in that you really have no reason, no goal to drive you.
    people griped about bad loot drops. people complained about not having the time to farm for gear. casuals complained they couldn't get the same gear everyone else is able to get. people complained the grind is too long, pointless when they just cared about a past life, not enough xp to level in some areas, or no groups to join. people complained that certain quests/raids are too hard. people complained about raid timers and 20th completions.

    those are some of the usual gripes we see on the forums and everyone of these "problems" was answered with a P2W option, but the "problems" continue to exist unless you buy to relieve your "burden". with these P2W options available to us and now that some of the best gear in the game is BTA or BTCoE which can be easily bought, traded and found more commonly on the P2WAH, people continue to gripe about the overall health of the game. wasn't P2W supposed to alleviate the "problems" we were having before? Turbine may be profiting from this, but these P2W options have changed the game and changed how players play the game. dumbing down the difficulty of the game and making it easy for everyone to get pretty much what they want, in pretty much the amount of time they want it in at some cost causes problems with activity down the road, player skill and replayability. P2W has increased significantly the past couple years. P2W has shaped DDO into what it is today. like it or not, we asked and we received.

    when people complain that they cant fill a raid group, did they also approve of raid timer bypass?

    when people complain they see less lfm activity, were they also raising a glass in approval that a lot or most of the quests can be soloed after the change in DS?

    when people complain about not many players or groups seem to be in the mid level range, were they also praising thanks that they now have an option to skip a bunch of levels after another Ottos sale?

    when people complain that they are bored and there is nothing really to do, did they also approve of the P2WAH and bought some of their loot from there?

    not saying this is all the direct result of P2W as there can be other factors involved, but it can be traced as a major cause.

  14. #194
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    people griped about bad loot drops. people complained about not having the time to farm for gear. casuals complained they couldn't get the same gear everyone else is able to get. people complained the grind is too long, pointless when they just cared about a past life, not enough xp to level in some areas, or no groups to join. people complained that certain quests/raids are too hard. people complained about raid timers and 20th completions.

    those are some of the usual gripes we see on the forums and everyone of these "problems" was answered with a P2W option, but the "problems" continue to exist unless you buy to relieve your "burden". with these P2W options available to us and now that some of the best gear in the game is BTA or BTCoE which can be easily bought, traded and found more commonly on the P2WAH, people continue to gripe about the overall health of the game. wasn't P2W supposed to alleviate the "problems" we were having before? Turbine may be profiting from this, but these P2W options have changed the game and changed how players play the game. dumbing down the difficulty of the game and making it easy for everyone to get pretty much what they want, in pretty much the amount of time they want it in at some cost causes problems with activity down the road, player skill and replayability. P2W has increased significantly the past couple years. P2W has shaped DDO into what it is today. like it or not, we asked and we received.

    when people complain that they cant fill a raid group, did they also approve of raid timer bypass?

    when people complain they see less lfm activity, were they also raising a glass in approval that a lot or most of the quests can be soloed after the change in DS?

    when people complain about not many players or groups seem to be in the mid level range, were they also praising thanks that they now have an option to skip a bunch of levels after another Ottos sale?

    when people complain that they are bored and there is nothing really to do, did they also approve of the P2WAH and bought some of their loot from there?

    not saying this is all the direct result of P2W as there can be other factors involved, but it can be traced as a major cause.
    This is true. And Turbine has a habit of deliberately making things MORE difficult, only to introduce a fancy P2W item shortly after that allows you to get around their new changes if you are willing to open your wallet.

    Short-term, P2W only affects those who are lazy enough to partake in it. So Joe Newb is tired of trying to get gear and decides to instead buy some TP codes and trade them for it. Okay, so now he is geared and bored so he quits. Nobody cares.

    But when hundreds or even thousands of players go down this path, and end up quitting because of a lack of goals to motivate them to play it impacts EVERYBODY because the community in this game is pretty small already and a few hundred players leaving has a ripple effect. It makes it more difficult to fill groups, which causes more players to get bored, which causes more people to quit.

    I think Turbine realizes this game is on the way out, and that is why over the last year they have become significantly more aggressive with their P2W marketing. Limited microtransactions in a game doesn't hurt much-- giving access to special SP pots, giving access to res cakes in case of an "oh ****" in a quest you've been at for an hour, letting you redo your enhancements or spells more often than the in-game limits... Things like that don't have a large impact on the game. But when you start offering methods of bypassing levels, when you start selling TP through a third-party company in a way that can be transferred to and used by people other than the buyer, when you arbitrarily triple the xp required to level and then offer XP pots to alleviate it... THAT is when the game suffers, that is when micropayments become Pay to Win.

    RPGs (and most video games in general) are all about the journey, not the destination.That's why using cheat codes (or paying money to win) is so silly; you are paying to skip the journey, so you don't even enjoy being at the destination when you get there because your mind knows that there was no sense of accomplishment involved in what you did.

  15. #195
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post

    RPGs (and most video games in general) are all about the journey, not the destination.That's why using cheat codes (or paying money to win) is so silly; you are paying to skip the journey, so you don't even enjoy being at the destination when you get there because your mind knows that there was no sense of accomplishment involved in what you did.

    I agree.


    And there is a portion of the player base, and a very vocal minority in the forums, that could care less about the RPG aspect of DDO (let alone the DnD aspect of it), and treat this game like WoW or Diablo. They only care about moar power, and they'll use every cheesey trick and safe spot, every broken or obviously OP game mechanic, and every exploit possible to achieve maximum power while complaining about how easy the game is and how there are no raids/end game/quests worth running.

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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post

    I think Turbine realizes this game is on the way out, and that is why over the last year they have become significantly more aggressive with their P2W marketing.
    I think the best indicator that this game is on the way out is that Turbine has apparently handed it over to junior staff to use as a training ground before they get deployed to a project that Turbine thinks actually matters. MajMal recently posted a pic of his co-workers, and they all looked like they should be working a summer job to save money to pay for next year's spring break.

  17. #197
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Those who don't pay also do not keep the lights on...

    Not screw them all... more like "sorry it didn't work out, but you can't please everyone all the time, and it's not realistic to try"
    Turbine made their own bed on this issue. The wise veterans simply let their points they earn free pile up and dont spend much. When the expansion comes out in the store for points, they will have that free too.

    Once the income of the game stopped being tethered to quality game and started being tethered to store items, those people who paid for a quality game stopped paying, but are still entitled to play what they get with points, which is pretty much all content. They just dont get to play it on the same opening days those who paid do.

    More like...sorry it didnt work out, but ima stay here because I still have some friends here - but this doesnt mean shelling out duckets for every new shiney advertised in the store.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  18. #198
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    You don't have to believe it, that's common for anyone who's never run a business to think it's all profit and maniacal laughter to the bank. But refusing to believe it and thinking that they are running some sort of money printing machine is simply not a knowledgeable stance.

    For starters something like 90% of all MMO's ever made have already failed.

    The game industry average salary is $80,000 last time I looked anyone who's read one of my posts on this subject before knows this and is probably groaning about now. A leased office space can cost tens of thousands of dollars per month, work place insurance, company matching benefits (health and retirement), unemployment insurance.

    Then there's the server hosting, bandwidth which is rented (leeches use bandwidth, bandwidth costs money), and a host of support staff, phone support, GM's, server admins, moderators, a cleaning crew they contract...

    Quarterly tax payments. If you've never had to make a quarterly tax payment it's a rather harsh reality.

    But hey it's all paid for and more by those sweet sweet subscriptions right?... Raking it in 10 dollars a month?

    Or is it? At $80,000 and assuming a conservative 50 hour work week and 52 weeks that's roughly 30 dollars an hour (now remember "salary" is what the EMPLOYEE MAKES, it is NOT what Turbine PAYS... (in other discussions over this some have not gotten this fact of reality) That's called "industry average labor cost" not salary. Turbines cost on a industry average salary is significantly higher than 80k, because of things the average non business owner has no idea about, state unemployment insurance, for example, company matching benefits and other government related taxes that vary by state, but are not generally part of "withholding".

    So recognizing that 80k or $30 an hour is a conservative number, a single paid subscription per month is worth how much? That's right, ONE THIRD OF A MAN HOUR. (significantly less than that actually but I can't estimate Turbine's tax, matching and unemployment insurance liability). Still think you're entitled for Turbine to appease your every whim?
    You are dead-right on so many of your points.

    However, the $10.00 a month thing...kinda off.

    Looking at Turbine’s behavior when it comes to releasing products, it looks to me like they are trying to push whatever they can out the door to make money. This means all this micro-transaction nonsense and P2W stuff. The problem is that, in almost every business model, the stuff you want people buying is the big-ticket items, and not the micro-transactions. That’s where you make your profits.

    This is further complicated by the fact that Turbine has gone OUT OF THEIR WAY to screw over VIP members in recent history. Their recent XP bonus perks seem almost an afterthought. There were a lot of people – like me – we were really out of joint about how MotU was handled, and how we got screwed out of content; some of them dropped VIP or DDO altogether. You read the posts here about people who have dropped VIP and went premium, never looking back. To me it seems that people are fleeing VIP because it offers them very little.

    So then you get a model where you need to get people buying a lot of high-ticket items, to compensate for the regular revenue stream that you’ve lost with a dwindling VIP population. That means more content, more often. Epic GH was given away basically for free. MotU set the bar for enhancements, with Shar coming in as a comparative disappointment. That leaves High Road and Druids Deep as paid packs, and those are maybe 4 quests each, with nothing really notable about them? GH has Tor and Reaver’s Fate, Sands has ADQ. What do any of the recent paid quest packs / expansion have that just scream, “purchase me?”

    The answer is: aside from MotU, not a lot.

    So, if they want the big bucks rolling in, they need to provide more expansive content – and charge more for it – or start making VIP way more attractive and moving people to that model. F2P is what it is – a loss-leader that gets people in and playing the game. Premium gets Turbine an infusion of cash, but that is fairly short-lived.

    In the end, Turbine chose Premium as its preferred model, which is all fine and dandy. Aside from the fact that I’m VIP and maybe about to be pushed out of that model into Premium, it’s all fine and dandy. They chose a direction. The problem is that they are not pushing enough new content out fast enough to make that model work (in my estimation).

    But micro-transactions are not going to keep Turbine in the black. They can be worked around, or ignored with proper game play. IN order to make it work, they’d have to literally screw everyone over so that you MUST make purchases to level, finish content, and so on. How well do you think that’ll work?

    Short answer: it won’t.

    If more people went VIP, a modest increase in subscription rates would net better revenue, with less need to push out more content faster. But Turbine decided to go in another direction. Time will tell if that was actually a good idea.

  19. #199
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    You're (again) making an assumption that you have not one iota of proof to support (at least nothing you've posted here, unless you can show us "people are no longer paying now" you're just making stuff up...
    Is it really that hard to figure out that when people are NOT PLAYING, they are NOT PAYING. Most of those people come back when updates are released which have loot they want. They then leave between the larger updates. Are you going to try to tell me that the servers are just as populated now as they were a month after the last expansion? If you do, please reciprocate and show supporting evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    I genuinely like reading your posts even when I don't agree, but you've got a clear trend going here. You make up an assertion out of thin air and then occasionally demand that other people disprove your "make believe" points. I'm guessing that's where you're going to head with this one. I'll just say: it's believable to me that perhaps less people are pre ordering this one, if only because it's less novel and new, and seems less featured. But that said clearly not to the "no longer paying now" extent you're implying, at least not if all the owl bear and missing costume posts are any indication.
    And you are doing exactly the same thing - and add onto that youre telling people to leave if they dont like it, which is even worse. This was a legit proclimation when the game was sub only but those days are gone.

    You want facts: Heres one still being ignored: Turbine set it up so no one has to leave. There is no entitlement whatsoever about this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    This is a valid point, but a two edged sword, yes the game needs populace to appear healthy, it even needs populace to keep people spending money (*because the appearance of DoooM can make people put their wallet away)... However it does not need players who are specifically unwilling to spend money, it can replace them with new ones who might spend money. My point remains, an incontrovertible law of business... if your expenses exceed your revenue for long enough you go out of business or shut that product line down...

    On the other hand a F2P model that lets "leeches" go away at about the same rate they are replaced by new players who MIGHT spend money, is probably the healthiest model. As long as the number you reach equilibrium at is a large enough number to make the game look and feel healthy.
    Turbine set it up so the "leeches" (your word) dont have to go away. Thats part of the point I have been making.

    In the days of sub only gaming, if people didnt like it their choice was either leave or stay. Not paying = not playing, and not posting on forums.

    Nowdays, its an entirely different set up. People pay points for what they want to play, and they get that content for the entire life of the game. They can leave and come back 6 months later, never having made a payment, and their status as a customer doesnt change. THey can also post on the forums for that entire 6 months and their ability to do so is not revoked simply because they didnt pay into the system.

    This gives people the ability to vote with their wallet, and at the same time tell the company what they would be willing to pay for through community channels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Making the game appear populated can be accomplished by MANY means, including new technology (one LFM panel spanning all servers = cross server play), making the LFM system more prevalent and easier to use, and less punitive and restrictive would all accomplish making the game appear more healthy. Even a server merge can accomplish that, and I might add reducing servers reduces overhead..
    They would have to be running shards for this, not servers. You think this is going to happen in a 7 year old game where they cant even database 2 people having the same name properly? HEH! Chances of happening. Nada. Now if they could sell you that ability in the store.....hmmmmm.....

    Which is the entire point many people here are making. They arent going to do stuff like this free. They will work on stuff that is sellable in the store first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    This idea that Turbine must pack the players in and encourage them to stay no matter what quality they are is overly simplistic, and not even necessary. There's more than one way to make the game appear healthy and full of players. There are means to that end. Like advertizing more to increase new players, replacing the old ones that churn out.
    Incorrect. Turbine learned this model by social games, and they clearly understand, just like every single other F2P model MMO understands, that most users will be free to play, or barely spend any money over the long term. Those people are justified, as a populated game brings in the big spenders. One fact is understood in those marketing meetings for those games. Whales dont log into ghost towns.
    Last edited by Chai; 06-20-2013 at 12:51 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #200
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    So, if they want the big bucks rolling in, they need to provide more expansive content – and charge more for it – or start making VIP way more attractive and moving people to that model. F2P is what it is – a loss-leader that gets people in and playing the game. Premium gets Turbine an infusion of cash, but that is fairly short-lived.
    It means you need NEW people buying packs out-right like many people did years ago. The game is filled with new people so apparently it's working. Is it enough new people buying old packs? i have no idea.

    Easier to rotate people than it is to keep old players happy.

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