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  1. #121
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Your analysis is flawed for multiply reasons. First, all someone has to do is have a level 25 character or have levelled a character to 25 and they will lose destiny xp under this proposal.
    You clearly didn't understand the entire line of thinking. Turbine is, perhaps mistakenly, correlating a predominance of sub-level-20 gameplay with non-challenging and repetitive gameplay. In my opinion, they would be mostly correct in that correlation because I myself am an end-gamer. The sub-20 game is extremely repetitive and mostly unchallenging for me.

    They are going to give you credit for your "lost XP," though they may not have figured out the best way of doing that, yet. Their error is in thinking that the new incentives will spice things up from the repetitive grind. While the sub-20 players are playing to have fun, their idea of fun is metagaming quests that they have done a zillion times before, and they simply don't feel hardcore enough to bother with memorizing the wholly different game that occurs past 20.

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    These 'hardcore' spenders Turbine must appease because they can significantly affect Turbine's bottom line.
    Yes, I mostly agree with this statement. There are caveats, however. The first one is that the hardcore spender's appeasement is NOT a simple function of what they say it is - meaning you CAN'T rely on what they say as being exactly what they want. The second is that their "appeasement" IS a function of the number of active players. Hardcore players need casual-types in order to feel good about spending money. If they have to spend a lot of money to simply be average, they won't do it.

    And Turbine, I'm sure, has some version of these caveats on file.

  2. #122
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    I would like to add that this small group of "hardcore spenders" has a lot of power and influence in DDO. What they should do is identify what are their common traits are and what their interests are and wants are and lobby Turbine to get their wants. They can literally hold Turbine over a barrell if they desire. Turbine has created this group and taken advantage of this group so now it is time for them to cater to this group. I can almsot guarantee that a lot of recent features that Turbine has put out does not cater to this group other then that there are epic past lives coming which gives them something to grind and then ways to skip the grind.
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  3. #123
    Community Member ThePrincipal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I would like to add that this small group of "hardcore spenders" has a lot of power and influence in DDO. What they should do is identify what are their common traits are and what their interests are and wants are and lobby Turbine to get their wants. They can literally hold Turbine over a barrell if they desire. Turbine has created this group and taken advantage of this group so now it is time for them to cater to this group. I can almsot guarantee that a lot of recent features that Turbine has put out does not cater to this group other then that there are epic past lives coming which gives them something to grind and then ways to skip the grind.
    How's that refund coming?

  4. #124
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePrincipal View Post
    How's that refund coming?
    I'm betting that he has not been appeased.

  5. #125
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post
    Better be careful, the fanbois lurk.


    Look, from Day 1 of the DDO Store there was a choice to be made on how to fleece *cough*, I mean, sell product to the masses. IMO, DDO chose to board the rail downward into endless grind and game mechanics such as you describe. My complaint from Day 1 - will DDO design questing and gameplay around what is sold in the Store, beginning with mana pots?

    The only thing that amazes me, as we sit closer to bottom of the slope now, is that there are still a few fanbois left who claim the slope is an illusion. I swear, DDO must pick up their tabs.
    Well, DDO has yet to design questing and gameplay around mana pots, so your complaint from Day 1 was and is still wrong.

    They did give us Bravery Bonus for free, and Chai himself claims that one can get from 1-20 without repeating a SINGLE quest just using the elite bravery bonus.

    So it doesn't look like DDO has designed quests and gameplay around xp pots either (Although would it kill them to up the xp in Amrath and Cannith quests?)

    They are purely optional. So yeah, this fanboi still thinks the slope you guys complain about is mostly an illusion. Turbine has done a very good job keeping store purchases optional. And they don't pick up my tabs.

    All that said, I too disagree with the losing of ED exp upon TR...

    I'd be okay with losing the ED exp as long as we can keep our fate points, and the ED map remains unlocked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
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  6. #126
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Re-levelling EDs . . . without a Rusted Blades quest . . . is too much grind to even consider.
    This is an opportunity for Turbine to fix EDs... If we can keep our fate points and keep the map unlocked (so we don't have to grind out a stupid ED to get to the ED we want), then we don't need to relevel ALL our EDs, just the ones that are fun for that character... which isn't really a grind...

    Let's get rid of the "Rusted Blades" solution. That solution sucks. Let's not force new players to have to go through that hell-hole.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    This is an opportunity for Turbine to fix EDs... If we can keep our fate points and keep the map unlocked (so we don't have to grind out a stupid ED to get to the ED we want), then we don't need to relevel ALL our EDs, just the ones that are fun for that character... which isn't really a grind...

    Let's get rid of the "Rusted Blades" solution. That solution sucks. Let's not force new players to have to go through that hell-hole.
    +1

    I think Turbine will get it right before they release the epic TR option.
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  8. #128
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    The bottom line is that they are severely confused. I would bet most of those people are STILL not going to care about epic destinies and end game content, even after this change. That is the problem with only having a metagame view of the game you yourself are designing. You think every motive has some ulterior motive of overpowered character design.

    The people who are playing DDO are pretty small in number, and most of them are playing simply to have fun. Having fun is what remains after all the "hardcores" leave.
    Just because Bait/switch does not bother you, does not mean it is not an issue.

    The Thelanis LFM panel has been rather strong, but apparently many servers are struggling. This means that casuals have a harder time finding a party. Turbine can go ahead and drive away the rest of the hardcore and then you will see these forums light up with casuals that are upset that they can’t find coattails to ride.
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  9. #129
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Well, DDO has yet to design questing and gameplay around mana pots, so your complaint from Day 1 was and is still wrong.

    They did give us Bravery Bonus for free, and Chai himself claims that one can get from 1-20 without repeating a SINGLE quest just using the elite bravery bonus.

    So it doesn't look like DDO has designed quests and gameplay around xp pots either (Although would it kill them to up the xp in Amrath and Cannith quests?)

    They are purely optional. So yeah, this fanboi still thinks the slope you guys complain about is mostly an illusion. Turbine has done a very good job keeping store purchases optional. And they don't pick up my tabs.

    All that said, I too disagree with the losing of ED exp upon TR...

    I'd be okay with losing the ED exp as long as we can keep our fate points, and the ED map remains unlocked.
    Why did Turbine nerf extend on caster damage? It was to OP, but then they will allow us to BUY back what they once considered was OP.

    Why did Turbine nerf challenge xp and ingredients? Were they upset that people could farm ings and have enough to get a true heart after a few hours? Was the xp in there to much that it was cutting into people not buying xp pots?

    Why do certain quests now not drop full epic tokens when they once did? Is Turbine mad that many people were farming them and not spending on hearts?

    It is the bait and switch that has people aggravated. You can hide behind, “but Turbine needs money” or “this doesn’t bother casuals” or any other logic you like, but it is still bad business.

    I can appreciate that Turbine is being honest about this ED problem though. I bet that they will change it to not alienate anymore people. If not, this is their call. I am sure the hardcore will find a work around and get things done without buying into the cash grab.
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  10. #130
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    ...(so we don't have to grind out a stupid ED to get to the ED we want)...

    Let's get rid of the "Rusted Blades" solution. That solution sucks. Let's not force new players to have to go through that hell-hole.
    So I'm curious. As someone who basically EATS (has no use for) huge amounts of XP on multiple characters between every level increase... what exactly is forcing new players to grind "Rusted Blades," "Von 1/2/3", "Impossible Demands," or "Insert-ridiculously-easy-xp-per-minute-quest-here?"

    You are -FAR- less powerful running an ED that doesn't suit your character, so I don't think it has much to do with reputation. I don't think anyone can tell you don't have all EDs max'd, so if it's important to be able to claim that - then claim it. The truth is that no one really cares and they don't check to make sure you have "Brace for Impact" twisted before they let you near an EE mob. (They probably don't want you near an EE mob unless you wouldn't have to have "Brace for Impact" twisted...)

    I'm just wondering if the developers might have as hard of time as I do trying to figure some of these motives out. To them it probably sounds like playing their game is torture of some type... but, obviously, this is a case where the truth lies somewhere between the lines of text.
    Last edited by Raithe; 06-17-2013 at 01:34 PM.

  11. #131
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Nothing "forces" people to run rusted blades - it is done because it is high XP per minute. One could argue that its not fun to just grind it repetitively, but one can also argue that playing caster destinies as a melee toon isnt fun either, so "get through it as fast as possible" is the path taken by many who just want it overwith.

    The solution to this entire debacle is to make leveling destinies fun regardless of which destiny is being leveled. This entails allowing us to gain XP in one destiny while being in another, which has been typed into threads on these forums for a year now ad nauseum. No more "figuring out" is needed. Players have already made it perfectly clear what they want in regards to being able to level EDs and so far Turbine has not made it happen. Then they came out and introduced this whole "lose ED XP on TR" mechanic, which not only doesnt fix the "its not fun" issue, but actually compounds it more.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #132
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    So I'm curious. As someone who basically EATS (has no use for) huge amounts of XP on multiple characters between every level increase... what exactly is forcing new players to grind "Rusted Blades," "Von 1/2/3", "Impossible Demands," or "Insert-ridiculously-easy-xp-per-minute-quest-here?"

    You are -FAR- less powerful running an ED that doesn't suit your character, so I don't think it has much to do with reputation. I don't think anyone can tell you don't have all EDs max'd, so if it's important to be able to claim that - then claim it. The truth is that no one really cares and they don't check to make sure you have "Brace for Impact" twisted before they let you near an EE mob. (They probably don't want you near an EE mob unless you wouldn't have to have "Brace for Impact" twisted...)

    I'm just wondering if the developers might have as hard of time as I do trying to figure some of these motives out. To them it probably sounds like playing their game is torture of some type... but, obviously, this is a case where the truth lies somewhere between the lines of text.
    Answer is simple. Fate points and the ability to twist in powerful cross destiny abilities. If you have never done this then you may not realize what you are missing.

  13. #133
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Nothing "forces" people to run rusted blades - it is done because it is high XP per minute. One could argue that its not fun to just grind it repetitively, but one can also argue that playing caster destinies as a melee toon isnt fun either, so "get through it as fast as possible" is the path taken by many who just want it overwith.

    The solution to this entire debacle is to make leveling destinies fun regardless of which destiny is being leveled. This entails allowing us to gain XP in one destiny while being in another, which has been typed into threads on these forums for a year now ad nauseum. No more "figuring out" is needed. Players have already made it perfectly clear what they want in regards to being able to level EDs and so far Turbine has not made it happen. Then they came out and introduced this whole "lose ED XP on TR" mechanic, which not only doesnt fix the "its not fun" issue, but actually compounds it more.
    While there were a lot of people in support of making EDs more fun by allowing destiny xp to be earned in the ED of choice even with a penalty, I was surprised to see as many as I did against it. It's actually easier to level any ED doing ridiculous HoRB or ID over and over but somehow people thought that it was better than giving someone 50% xp in the destiny of their choice while running quests that they enjoyed.

    And I agree that the fun factor will be even further demolished because you won't be able to level HoRB at level 28 and would be even a longer grind I imagine to get your fate points back.

    If we get to lock our fate points, a lot of these threads would disappear I imagine and we could get back to looking forward to the new mechanic for Epic TRing. Still no word, and therefore, I remain stuck in limbo, not really bothering to finish out the ED map, I had roughly 6 to go.

  14. #134
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    So I'm curious. As someone who basically EATS (has no use for) huge amounts of XP on multiple characters between every level increase... what exactly is forcing new players to grind "Rusted Blades," "Von 1/2/3", "Impossible Demands," or "Insert-ridiculously-easy-xp-per-minute-quest-here?"

    You are -FAR- less powerful running an ED that doesn't suit your character, so I don't think it has much to do with reputation. I don't think anyone can tell you don't have all EDs max'd, so if it's important to be able to claim that - then claim it. The truth is that no one really cares and they don't check to make sure you have "Brace for Impact" twisted before they let you near an EE mob. (They probably don't want you near an EE mob unless you wouldn't have to have "Brace for Impact" twisted...)
    Fate points are very powerful. Sense weakness (tier 4 ability) is hugely overpowered... It makes a giant difference for any melee who is not in the Fury ED, but can twist it in. It takes a LOT of fate points to twist in a Tier IV ability.

    30% more DPS when a mob is stunned, and 1d8 (75% mob health and lower) + 1d12 (50% mob health and lower) + 1d20 (25% mob health and lower). It's a ton of DPS. 4.5+6.5+11.5 = 22 more damage per hit when the boss is below 25%...

    I'm just wondering if the developers might have as hard of time as I do trying to figure some of these motives out.
    Since they are programmers, I'd expect them to know SOME math... That's all you need to figure out player motives.
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    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
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    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  15. #135
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalimah View Post
    ...Fate points and the ability to twist in powerful cross destiny abilities...
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Fate points are very powerful. Sense weakness...
    Yeah, except I had dismissed the notion of being more powerful as a motive. You are basically saying, I'm going to run around Sschindylryn as a Fighter in Magister ED so that some day I can (shelve?) my completed character who now has the option of twisting Sense Weakness...

    Well, actually you were saying that such a mentality was unavoidable for any new player. My inquiry was more about why you needed to grind the EDs all at once instead of TR-ing and then completing the ED that is suitable for the TR, or some other option. Actually as I have thought about it more, I've somewhat answered my own question. People have ground out the EDs because unlike me they did not have multiple capped characters, and they wanted to see what could be utilized (such as the popular Sense Weakness) to achieve maximal character power.

    The thing that usually stumps me is the idea of "maximal character power." The classes are too misbalanced for there to be much choice if this is a purpose. It's probably some particular favored soul or warforged sorcerer build, and the steps to build it could be printed out on a recipe card for everyone to follow...
    Last edited by Raithe; 06-17-2013 at 06:32 PM.

  16. #136
    Founder AnubisPrime's Avatar
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    Default ehhh

    This is stuff that is just being explored, AND they are, from what I've read, looking for our input.

    From what I gather...

    No one is going to be forced to Epic TR.

    You can still Heroic TR the same way you do now. I have faith they would preserve this for those who don't want to Epic TR.

    I suggest as many of you have done, to continue to provide ideas, criticism and feedback without the continual doom-speak. Good critical feedback is more than welcome.

    The 5201st "I'm leaving", "regret buying" thread is getting really old. If you don't want to play anymore then don't. I do sympathize if you have something happening to you that is game-breaking, but the things I have read over the years are things that certainly are far from that.

    I've played since before the start, and for the level of character complexity/diversity, rulesets I'd say the game is holding up pretty damn well.

    Other games: When you run a cookie-cutter MMO with 200 clones of you are running around, then it's much easier to nail down things. I can't play those things.
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  17. #137
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    The thing that usually stumps me is the idea of "maximal character power." The classes are too misbalanced for there to be much choice if this is a purpose. It's probably some particular favored soul or warforged sorcerer build, and the steps to build it could be printed out on a recipe card for everyone to follow...
    It's probably perspective based.

    For some players, "maximal power" may refer to the most powerful toon designable in the game.

    For others, it may refer to "the maximum amount of power achievable by my favorite class/build."

    While some specific toaster sorc may be the "the most powerful build in the game" there will also be "max power" builds for clerics, rogues and multiclasses.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnubisPrime View Post
    The 5201st "I'm leaving", "regret buying" thread is getting really old.
    Ah, come on! You apparently took the time to read at least some of it, and to post your whine in it. You love it, and you know it!

  19. #139
    Founder AnubisPrime's Avatar
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    ...True I did read it, if only to help stop the progression of hyperbole and over-speculation.
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  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    So yeah, this fanboi still thinks the slope you guys complain about is mostly an illusion.
    Well, at least the are 2 things you have finally managed to acknowledge; I had a feeling you couldn't resist the bait to post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Well, DDO has yet to design questing and gameplay around mana pots, so your complaint from Day 1 was and is still wrong.
    Sure. Old Epics, old raids, new Epic Elites. Sure, most players can breeze through them only using shrines ... uh, not in my experience. Its have pots or go home. If pots, by all reports, are some of the best sellers in the Store, why is that? Especially if they are not needed? If you think the hardest content and challenges in this game don't require pots and haven't been designed that way, I have swamp land with lots of oil for you down south.
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