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  1. #81
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    I blame getting bought up by Warner Brothers. I just have to wonder how long till WB decides enough is enough.
    The game needs to grow for this not to happen.

    ****ing off a good chunk of your customers is not a smart way to grow your company.

  2. #82
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post
    Request denied.

    You already know that's Turbine response (if they bothered to respond at all), but it is also mine.

    You were here for MotU. You should darn well know better than to prepurchase Expansion 2. If you didn't learn that lesson from MotU, you'd probably fritter the refund away on some other foolish purchase.

    Do yourself a favor. Kick yourself (metaphorically, of course) until the lesson sinks in. Then, be grateful that you learned such a valuable life lesson at the cost of a handful of dollars.
    For the most part, I'll agree with you on this one.

    However, I'm not upset with my pre purchase of MoTU, nor am I with this one.
    The reason isn't because of the "what am I getting" that I don't know about, or changes that are coming that effect the whole game. It is because I know some things that I know I am getting.

    I pre bought for the items. XP tomes? Skill tomes? Gold Seal hirelings at high level? (given the number of characters I have) it is cheeper to buy the pre purchase than to buy individually from the store.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    It's amazing how a company with such obvious contempt for their customers is still in business.
    While i don't judge Turbine that harshly, just look at EA, Ubisoft, Activision(or for that matter WB) they threat customers like garbage, but they pretty much thrive.
    It seems to work out.

  4. #84
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pandir View Post
    While i don't judge Turbine that harshly, just look at EA, Ubisoft, Activision(or for that matter WB) they threat customers like garbage, but they pretty much thrive.
    It has to do with competition. I've seen a few MMOs emerge that claim to have action-based gameplay and none of them have even come close to DDO. Throw in character customization and it really is a one of a kind MMO. There are no other MMOs competing for the niche it occupies.
    Last edited by Ryiah; 06-14-2013 at 08:45 AM.
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  5. #85
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    It has to do with competition. I've seen a few MMOs emerge that claim to have action-based gameplay and none of them have even come close to DDO. Throw in character customization and it really is a one of a kind MMO. There are no other MMOs competing for the niche it occupies.
    1. It's D&D. I'm sorry but if this game wasn't based on D&D it'd be dead ages ago. Despite all the Turbinism it still "feels" like D&D for the most part.

    2. Active/action based combat.

    3. Great quests. Sure Turbine can't make up their friggin minds about the game mechanics but the quests are excellent. Raids . . . meh, most suck now but the 6-man quests are great. Makes it a lot of fun to play in spite of Turbine's never-ending goal of ruining the game mechanics.

    Pretty much a monopoly which is the only way they've been able to keep 40% of the players they had when the game peaked around update 10. How much longer that'll keep the lights on I have no idea.

  6. #86
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    It has to do with competition. I've seen a few MMOs emerge that claim to have action-based gameplay and none of them have even come close to DDO. Throw in character customization and it really is a one of a kind MMO. There are no other MMOs competing for the niche it occupies.
    Pretty much this in a nutshell.
    If this game was run by a different company, a better company I would be so happy.
    As it stands, if I could just find another game the delivers the same quality of character customization and action based combat I would be there in a heartbeat, taking anyone and everyone I could with me. But since I have yet to find that in another MMO, I'll just keep playing this till ESO comes out.

    If that falls through I may just be done with MMO's for good.
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  7. #87
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    And this is not the first time that Turbine has pulled this bait-n-switch nonsense on it's players. Hard to kill?

    My guess is some other terrible idea is in the pipeline and this is wagging the dog to distract us.

    It's amazing how a company with such obvious contempt for their customers is still in business.
    I dont know about contempt - I tend to label it disregard, likely from an economic standpoint.

    Plans are made for new system.
    Plans are partially revealed to players.
    Players provide their feedback
    Employees who read the forums report what the players want and compare it to what they laid out.
    Beancounters base the decision on one question. Which will make more money?
    Implementation occurs.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #88
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    Pretty much this in a nutshell.
    If this game was run by a different company, a better company I would be so happy.
    As it stands, if I could just find another game the delivers the same quality of character customization and action based combat I would be there in a heartbeat, taking anyone and everyone I could with me. But since I have yet to find that in another MMO, I'll just keep playing this till ESO comes out.

    If that falls through I may just be done with MMO's for good.
    ESO looked kinda meh in the Youtube clips, but it's our only hope.

    That said we can continue playing DDO until the lights go out. What we don't have to do is give Turbine any more money. Freeloader is looking pretty darn good.

    When you're only plans for profits are P2Win stuff for fools, eventually they'll wise up and stop buying.

  9. #89
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Beancounters base the decision on one question. Which will make more money?
    That's the thing . . . this is no way in hell us losing our ED XP on heroic TR will make Turbine more money.

    Most of us with the bad-assed EE-crushing Max-ED'd toons will NEVER TR THOSE TOONS AGAIN. We don't need to, they are already powerful enough. No TRing mean no hearts, no XP pots, no Otto's boxes for the P2Win fools, that's gotta be lost revenue.

    Now I still TR just for the hell of it, it's something to do when end-game gets boring. Then I'll just have to find another activity.

    Turbine makes no money off me when I'm at cap. They will make some money off me when I TR as I mostly buy my hearts in the store and will use XP pots to make the journey less painful.

    But there's no way in hell I'll ever TR a toon again if it means losing the ED XP. Gaining that was the most painful un-fun gaming experience ever and I simply will not do it.

    I'm not the only one who'll never TR again. This will cost Turbine money. Money is the only thing that matters, this decision is just plain dumb.
    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 06-14-2013 at 09:20 AM.

  10. #90
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    That's the thing . . . this is no way in hell us losing our ED XP on heroic TR will make Turbine more money.

    Most of us with the bad-assed EE-crushing Max-ED'd toons will NEVER TR THOSE TOONS AGAIN. We don't need to, they are already powerful enough. No TRing mean no hearts, no XP pots, no Otto's boxes for the P2Win fools, that's gotta be lost revenue.

    Now I still TR just for the hell of it, it's something to do when end-game gets boring. Then I'll just have to find another activity.

    Turbine makes no money off me when I'm at cap. They will make some money off me when I TR as I mostly buy my hearts in the store and will use XP pots to make the journey less painful.

    But there's no way in hell I'll ever TR a toon again if it means losing the ED XP. Gaining that was the most painful un-fun gaming experience ever and I simply will not do it.

    I'm not the only one who'll never TR again. This will cost Turbine money. Money is the only thing that matters, this decision is just plain dumb.
    Turbine has to make some kind of a grind in the game to keep its people. Mainly the hardcore that are off playing other games or enjoying the summer sun.

    Without putting money back into the game (only making 8 quests), how are they to keep the hard core’s attention? I agree that they could put resources back into the game and make more ED’s, more quests, more Monster manuals, anything that would keep the playerbase happy. But without reinvesting into the game they decide this is the best route. If it costs a few players, meh, they will just add more P2W items to make up for what the people that quit.

    I will go on record and say I am happy to be a freeloader. You people that are upset need to remember this and not buy the next stupid pet or cash grab ploy that they introduce. When Turbine sees that people are not going to buy into dumb **** and want quality, they may change. If not, it is the people that are blindly throwing Turbine money that are just continuing the problem.
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  11. #91
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    That's the thing . . . this is no way in hell us losing our ED XP on heroic TR will make Turbine more money..
    It will, because players have short term memories and

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Most of us with the bad-assed EE-crushing Max-ED'd toons will NEVER TR THOSE TOONS AGAIN. We don't need to, they are already powerful enough. No TRing mean no hearts, no XP pots, no Otto's boxes for the P2Win fools, that's gotta be lost revenue...
    How many of those builds will survive the enhancement pass? All they have to do is design the game so people WILL TR, and they WILL TR. The other option is to vote with their wallet. I have seen this threatened alot, but the mass exodus hasnt occurred yet. Maybe it will one day, but Ill believe it when I see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Now I still TR just for the hell of it, it's something to do when end-game gets boring. Then I'll just have to find another activity.

    Turbine makes no money off me when I'm at cap. They will make some money off me when I TR as I mostly buy my hearts in the store and will use XP pots to make the journey less painful....
    The money they used to make off capped players was off timer bypass. Now it will be epic XP boosters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    But there's no way in hell I'll ever TR a toon again if it means losing the ED XP. Gaining that was the most painful un-fun gaming experience ever and I simply will not do it.

    I'm not the only one who'll never TR again. This will cost Turbine money. Money is the only thing that matters, this decision is just plain dumb.
    What they are hoping for is: Expansion drops. All those people who farm loot as fast as possible and then leave between major updates return, see theres a new way to TR, dive into it, and pay to win heavily. How they thought this would be well receved after the entire debacle of being able to keep tomes after TR.....
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #92
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post

    I will go on record and say I am happy to be a freeloader. You people that are upset need to remember this and not buy the next stupid pet or cash grab ploy that they introduce. When Turbine sees that people are not going to buy into dumb **** and want quality, they may change. If not, it is the people that are blindly throwing Turbine money that are just continuing the problem.
    This.

    I see this alot in MMOs. Example: Right now there are people in the NW boards complaining about soft launches and how the company shouldnt take money if they are not willing to remove the beta tag. The perpetuators of the issue are as much the players as the company because as long as people are willing to pay for unfinished products, companies will be more than willing to sell them unfinished products.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #93
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    It will, because players have short term memories and
    Kobold still remember Waterworks . . . I’m still ****ed about the Tempest Nerfs and I’m not quite as smart as a Kobold.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    How many of those builds will survive the enhancement pass? All they have to do is design the game so people WILL TR, and they WILL TR. The other option is to vote with their wallet. I have seen this threatened alot, but the mass exodus hasnt occurred yet. Maybe it will one day, but Ill believe it when I see it.
    Many will survive, I know mine will. They’ll be stronger choices as well and keep in mind the ENH pass is happening a few monsth before this TR pass so we’ll be able to fix the toons anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The money they used to make off capped players was off timer bypass. Now it will be epic XP boosters.
    I don’t think it will. If the players in my large high-level guild are any indication nobody is going to bother to TR again. Re-levelling EDs . . . without a Rusted Blades quest . . . is too much grind to even consider.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    What they are hoping for is: Expansion drops. All those people who farm loot as fast as possible and then leave between major updates return, see theres a new way to TR, dive into it, and pay to win heavily. How they thought this would be well receved after the entire debacle of being able to keep tomes after TR.....
    I’m sorry, but that’s just not gonna happen. People will just move on to other stuff.

    Getting all your “work” deleted point out how pointless all of this is. It was bad enough when most of the old loot became ****, but EDs is a deferent level of stupidness. The loot grind was at least fun, I enjoyed running Epic Von 3 a bunch to get my 3 Moron helms that now sit in a bank. Same with Epic Offering of Blood to get my multiple sets of Epic Spectral gloves.

    I friggin HATED the ED grind. I’m sorry, I’ll just chose to not do it again as will any intelligent person.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The perpetuators of the issue are as much the players as the company because as long as people are willing to pay for unfinished products, companies will be more than willing to sell them unfinished products.
    Sums it up rather nicely.

    As a customer, if you continue to buy garbage, you can only really expect that companies will continue to sell you garbage.

    Even worse are the people who harass customers simply because the customer has the audacity to ask for quality products. There used to be a lot of those harassers on these forums, but they seem to be slowly disappearing. Good riddance. Perhaps, when they are all gone, Turbine will start paying attention to the legitimate complaints of their customers.

  15. #95
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    I am wondering how the double tp deal goes. If Turbine does not see as many people buying to meet the quota, they may do the following.

    /tinfoil

    Glin would announce that the tr requirements have changed. A second life will only require 2.7 mill xp and a third life will only require 3.8 mill xp.

    Everyone will forget that they will lose all of their ED xp, and start spending like lemmings. Then they will introduce (as Chai said) ED boosters and the lemmings will continue to throw them money.
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  16. #96
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    I am wondering how the double tp deal goes. If Turbine does not see as many people buying to meet the quota, they may do the following.

    /tinfoil

    Glin would announce that the tr requirements have changed. A second life will only require 2.7 mill xp and a third life will only require 3.8 mill xp.

    Everyone will forget that they will lose all of their ED xp, and start spending like lemmings. Then they will introduce (as Chai said) ED boosters and the lemmings will continue to throw them money.
    I just don't see that happening. People hate the ED grind that much.

  17. #97
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post


    The other option is to vote with their wallet. I have seen this threatened alot, but the mass exodus hasnt occurred yet. Maybe it will one day, but Ill believe it when I see it.

    .....
    It depends on what you define as mass exodus. It has been happening for a while people leaving DDO and less people are joining to fill their places. The MOTU did not see an upsurge in the population at all much to Turbine's chagrin.

    Let me explain just how bad this Epic Destiny xp wipe is. First, it invalidates any grind we might do in the future. If someone goes out and completes the epic completionist who is to say that a year from now Turbine will not just wipe that and make the player grind it out again? This wipe totally invalidates Turbine's word regarding grinds.

    What is different with this and previous grinds is it prevents a player from remaking characters and keeping that character's gear an option that was given with true reincarnation originally. The player real choice now is to keep a character as a certain build with capped destinies and roll up brand new characters to try out builds or to wipe all the xp the character spent the entire year getting. In an MMO it is expected that a player will have to keep up with the current grind in order to keep a character at close to the optimum, but if the player decides not to participate in the current grind they will still be able to have decent characters up to a point and for a time. e.g. If I chose not to go for the new sword, I still have the old sword which is not as good presumably, but I can still participate and use the old sword. Well now I can not particpate in a core aspect of DDO which is trying out new builds either that or I totally invalidate what I spent the previous year attaining which was an utter waste of time.

    There were many other solutions to this that would have cost the playerbase far less in regards to time waste. Turbine could have nerfed the high xp quests xp given significantly not soon after MOTU was released. Turbine could have come out with this information that Producer Glin just provided months ago. Turbine could have had more foresight about the epic destinies and actually put this in place a year ago. I am very suspicious of Turbine in that they could have come up with the epic experience plan in the development of MOTU and held out on putting this into place until this year. DDO has begun to feel dysfunctional and not worth my or other people's money or time.
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  18. #98
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post
    Sums it up rather nicely.

    As a customer, if you continue to buy garbage, you can only really expect that companies will continue to sell you garbage.


    I'm still VIP . . . but I haven't bought points all year. I used to buy a pack of points whenever they went on sale as I loved the cosmetic junk, TR/LR hearts, stat-tomes (yeah, P2Win I know), etc . . . there'd be useful stuff. I never minded, it was a game I loved and still the cheapest hobby I've ever had.

    Post Motu . . . things have changed. Actually come to think of it I haven't bought points since MoTU.

    Here's the thing . . . anyone who isn't homeless can easily afford $10/month for a subscription, but that's not gonna keep the lights on. There were only 500 people on Ghallanda last night at 8 PM eastern (I was bored, I counted). Even if they are all VIP that's nothing in terms of money.

    They need to sell us stuff, content, P2Win junk we don't need (and smart people have stopped buying), comsmetics, TR hearts, XP pots . .. etc. if we're not buying that stuff they are in trouble, their playerbase now is too small.

    As it is now a Premium player will all the packs doesn't have to spend a dime on ANYTHING to play. A ViP's $10/month isn't gonna cover much of anything else. Since we don't need any of the other junk they're selling there's no need to buy it. We can essentially freeload.

    TLR: If all they put out is garbage we don't have to buy anything to continue playing. It costs us nothing to not buy into their dumb new systems. There is no need to buy any non-content to play this game to it's highest potential.

    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post
    Even worse are the people who harass customers simply because the customer has the audacity to ask for quality products. There used to be a lot of those harassers on these forums, but they seem to be slowly disappearing. Good riddance. Perhaps, when they are all gone, Turbine will start paying attention to the legitimate complaints of their customers.
    I think the fanbois have gotten tired, it must be exhausting defending some of the inane decisions Turbine's made in the past year. There's only one left but his posts are such obvious trolling he can be reported on all of it.

  19. #99
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I just don't see that happening. People hate the ED grind that much.
    Indeed, mainly because of how poorly it was designed. For each class, there are two, MAYBE three EDs that are decent/fun to play and the rest are horrible because they provide no benefits at all. That was why so many people did HoRB-- running with gimped destinies didn't matter there, so they maxed them in that setting to be able to play how they wanted in "real" content.

    Honestly, if both the Enhancement Pass and the ED pass both come to fruition in their current proposed states, I have no doubt it will destroy the game. So many people will leave because their builds and work were ruined that the game will never recover. Already, on most servers the LFM board is a ghost town across all levels. Older raids are very rarely run-- it's only Web and FOT now. Even Shroud, the most popular raid ever, is seldom run anymore and it has items with bonuses that are very difficult to come by ANYWHERE ELSE.

    You never see EE content run in LFMs because the majority of players capable of running it either left or are strong enough to solo/shortman it without involving pugs. On Sarlona, even just trying to level up my TR I have a lot of trouble finding/making groups these days. Most stuff I just end up soloing or doing with one other person.

    Then, there is this underwhelming expansion that is very unclear whether or not it will have any epic-level content at all upon release. I very much regret going all-in on it and getting the $149 bundle. But, I learned my lesson from that. I was highly considering getting the 9K point bundle this week, so I would have more than enough funds to use on various stuff like potions and timer bypasses. But, after this revelation, I am showing restraint. I am still a VIP, so I will just rely on my monthly dole to get by. Other than my subscription (which I deliberately only buy in three month blocks), I am not going to invest anything else in this sinking ship. Unless some drastic changes in the company mindset occur, I am fairly confident that it will not be around a year from now.
    Last edited by djl; 06-14-2013 at 11:08 AM.

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    Other than not applying the ED wipe during heroic TR they can also.... put in a system where when you level in the destiny of your choice for partial exp that you can apply to other destinies. The real issue is lots of destinies not fitting certain characters, and it's a true slog to get through those destinies - especially if you're not xp grinding them, running quests with lower xp, or constantly have to respec.

    I have a couple of characters, one with many maxed EDs, that I was going to TR to completionist, and probably with pots. I don't see that happening if this goes through. Spend weeks in LD destiny with 3 skills to use in it, casually questing, just so I can get over to Shiradi (why the hell don't artificers start near here)? No thanks, on that character ever again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The people who will be irritated by this are those who have played the game and earned destiny XP, period.
    Right, and more so the casual, slow levelers. I.e. most of their playerbase will hurt more than speed runners.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    Turbine has to make some kind of a grind in the game to keep its people. Mainly the hardcore that are off playing other games or enjoying the summer sun.
    No, not the hardcore. The more casual players that come in and play, spend money, especially to save time, and take their time. Sure, there has to be a point to things and a way to achieve permanent goals, but not by wiping something that has been in game for a year. I'm starting to think that they cannot figure out how to fix the "3 classes max" bug that used to wipe Epic ED on LR (and some TRs?) and this is their way around it.


    Quote Originally Posted by MartinusWyllt View Post
    DDO is just a game.
    Yeah, thanks for your oh so meaningful contribution to the thread, brushing everyone's concerns aside. Please do us a favor and don't bother to post your unique insights from now on.
    Last edited by locus; 06-14-2013 at 04:34 PM.

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