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  1. #161
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post

    The game doesn't exist unless it can make money. If you don't want to pay, then IMO feel free to move on, you're nothing but a drag on server resources and a user of expensive bandwidth, in other words you are a overhead cost, that Turbine almost certainly measures and keeps track of as a form of "cost of goods sold" like advertizing and inventory... If you spend nothing you're a statistic that can be defined as: the bad but necessary overhead cost of using a free to play model... Too many of you and the game I enjoy playing on a nightly basis (mostly without all that "keeping track of all the work arounds") will shut down when it's expenses exceed it's revenue for more than a short while.
    Theres 2 things wrong with this.

    1. People were sold content, and paid in the past, but are no longer paying now because of the decline in the state of what they are being asked to pay for. THey still have every right to play what they paid for, and to buy this new stuff once they have earned points free by playing to do so.

    2. What you are saying is not how the f2p model works. When games go f2p they know full well that there will be a high headcount of players that will not pay a dime. This is acceptable because of the lower percentage of big spenders who will play with those who do not spend paying far more than the average sub would be if it was a sub game. If those freebie players werent there, the game is a ghost town, which big spenders will stop logging into.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #162
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Theres 2 things wrong with this.

    1. People were sold content, and paid in the past, but are no longer paying now because of the decline in the state of what they are being asked to pay for. THey still have every right to play what they paid for, and to buy this new stuff once they have earned points free by playing to do so.

    2. What you are saying is not how the f2p model works. When games go f2p they know full well that there will be a high headcount of players that will not pay a dime. This is acceptable because of the lower percentage of big spenders who will play with those who do not spend paying far more than the average sub would be if it was a sub game. If those freebie players werent there, the game is a ghost town, which big spenders will stop logging into.
    Um . . . people buy CONTENT. Those people haven't bought anything in a while because . . . wait for it . . .

    TURBINE HASN'T BEEN RELEASING ANY CONTENT.

    Since the high-road we've seen nothing for sale but P2Win stuff we don't need. if you don't need something, you don't buy it.

    Everyone buys content. Every premium player I know owns nearly every pack and most have never spent a dime on a P2Win box or whatever.

    Turbine wants money? Turbine should sell CONTENT.

  3. #163
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Turbine wants money? Turbine should sell CONTENT.
    That's exactly what they're doing with yearly expansion packs now. Last year, MotU was equivalent to at least 3 adventure packs, possibly 4 with additional extras like destinies which could be sold separately easily. Instead of releasing 3 or 4 additional adventure packs throughout the year (which ViP would get for free), they bundle them together, with some extras to entice people and sell it all for 5x the cost or more. They release content, make more money than selling it separately and get to charge ViP's as well.

    The same thing appears to be happening this year with Shadowfell. Make no mistake. Turbine is releasing content. However, their business plan has changed. We see fewer adventure packs yearly but we will be seeing an expansion each year which will be 2+ adventure packs bundled together. We see content less frequently, but it drives sales upward due to skirting the ViP rules and the appeal to casuals and fluff lovers who want all the extras. I can't blame them for going this way. Although they haven't come out and admitted it openly, it seems quite obvious this is how it will go.

    I anticipate a tie in adventure pack to be released toward the beginning of the new year. This tie in pack will contain the missing raid from the expansion pack. Players will basically be buying the expansion in stages. You think you're getting the whole xpack with your prepurchace, but the missing raid will be included in the xpack add on that you'll see in Feb/March.

    This is all speculation on my part so we'll have to see what happens.
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  4. #164
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    That's exactly what they're doing with yearly expansion packs now.
    The "expansion" is a $30 rip-off that all the smart people will wait for it to be available with points and buy in the store. The "expansion" was full of junk people don't need so why buy it?

    It offered me and many others NOTHING we needed . . . except content . . . that I can later buy with point I already paid for.

    Why would I buy this? it offers me no value.

  5. #165
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    This is really starting to be a hard sell for me. Unless they are recieving daily trasfer trucks full of raw materials, laying 1000's of miles of copper lines, or shooting satellites into space it's really hard (for me) to see some huge upkeep expenses to keep the games running outside of employee salaries. The constant suggestion of doom that the lights are going to go out if we don't constantly pay, or better yet pay more, certainly don't mesh with the risks they take with their customer base. Maybe throw some data at me as to the number of games that have tanked and truly went under. I think I've heard of maybe a handful mentioned in a few threads here and there. If true those are certainly good odds of success compared to most businesses. I'm not really worried about the lights going out. You're going to have to make a much more comprehensive pitch with alot more imformation to sell me that doomsday scenario.
    You don't have to believe it, that's common for anyone who's never run a business to think it's all profit and maniacal laughter to the bank. But refusing to believe it and thinking that they are running some sort of money printing machine is simply not a knowledgeable stance.

    For starters something like 90% of all MMO's ever made have already failed.

    The game industry average salary is $80,000 last time I looked anyone who's read one of my posts on this subject before knows this and is probably groaning about now. A leased office space can cost tens of thousands of dollars per month, work place insurance, company matching benefits (health and retirement), unemployment insurance.

    Then there's the server hosting, bandwidth which is rented (leeches use bandwidth, bandwidth costs money), and a host of support staff, phone support, GM's, server admins, moderators, a cleaning crew they contract...

    Quarterly tax payments. If you've never had to make a quarterly tax payment it's a rather harsh reality.

    But hey it's all paid for and more by those sweet sweet subscriptions right?... Raking it in 10 dollars a month?

    Or is it? At $80,000 and assuming a conservative 50 hour work week and 52 weeks that's roughly 30 dollars an hour (now remember "salary" is what the EMPLOYEE MAKES, it is NOT what Turbine PAYS... (in other discussions over this some have not gotten this fact of reality) That's called "industry average labor cost" not salary. Turbines cost on a industry average salary is significantly higher than 80k, because of things the average non business owner has no idea about, state unemployment insurance, for example, company matching benefits and other government related taxes that vary by state, but are not generally part of "withholding".

    So recognizing that 80k or $30 an hour is a conservative number, a single paid subscription per month is worth how much? That's right, ONE THIRD OF A MAN HOUR. (significantly less than that actually but I can't estimate Turbine's tax, matching and unemployment insurance liability). Still think you're entitled for Turbine to appease your every whim?

  6. #166
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    The "expansion" is a $30 rip-off that all the smart people will wait for it to be available with points and buy in the store. The "expansion" was full of junk people don't need so why buy it?

    It offered me and many others NOTHING we needed . . . except content . . . that I can later buy with point I already paid for.

    Why would I buy this? it offers me no value.
    It is only a "rip off" because you've grown accustomed to the way they've done it in the past, and built up a sense of entitlement to access the game that way forever.

    If they started saving up two updates worth of content 3 times a year and decided to charge $30 each time, that would be their prerogative... it might chase players away, I'm not saying it would be healthy for the game, or that I would buy them all, but that decision is also their prerogative. I am totally comfortable with paying for one every year, and I think that would not push a significant number of players away (not enough to counter act the revenue).

    I base my comfort doing this, on my assessment that DDO is dollar for dollar by far the best entertainment value I personally can spend money on, at least that interests me. People regularly blow 49.99 to watch fake wrestling that used to be free every Sunday morning on cr@ppy UHF TV channels. I regularly pay over a hundred dollars a month for Satellite TV that I only barely ever watch... Having spent more on a single year of Directv than I probably EVER will spend on DDO which I've played for far more time, and over just about 4 years now.

  7. #167
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    It is only a "rip off" because you've grown accustomed to the way they've done it in the past, and built up a sense of entitlement to access the game that way forever.
    Wrong. It's a rip-off compared to what they offer in similar packs. Gianthold is $10 for 10ish quests, two raids, and is bother heroic and epic. it's also awesome.

    $30 for two packs . . . with no raid . . . is a rip off. I'll buy it when on sale with points I bought last year because it's not worth more than that.

    As a VIP MoTU didn't bother me, I didn't mind paying extra for it because it was a heck of a lot of stuff. This is an indefensible cash-grab and nothing more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    If they started saving up two updates worth of content 3 times a year and decided to charge $30 each time, that would be their prerogative... it might chase players away, I'm not saying it would be healthy for the game, or that I would buy them all, but that decision is also their prerogative. I am totally comfortable with paying for one every year, and I think that would not push a significant number of players away (not enough to counter act the revenue).
    if they no longer feel like having a game they should start taking suggestions from you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    I base my comfort doing this, on my assessment that DDO is dollar for dollar by far the best entertainment value I personally can spend money on, at least that interests me. People regularly blow 49.99 to watch fake wrestling that used to be free every Sunday morning on cr@ppy UHF TV channels. I regularly pay over a hundred dollars a month for Satellite TV that I only barely ever watch... Having spent more on a single year of Directv than I probably EVER will spend on DDO which I've played for far more time, and over just about 4 years now.
    I spend more a year on guitar strings than I do DDO. Doesn't make this "expansion" any less of a terrible rip off.

  8. #168
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Still think you're entitled for Turbine to appease your every whim?
    Yes.

  9. #169
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Theres 2 things wrong with this.

    1. People were sold content, and paid in the past, but are no longer paying now because of the decline in the state of what they are being asked to pay for. THey still have every right to play what they paid for, and to buy this new stuff once they have earned points free by playing to do so.
    You're (again) making an assumption that you have not one iota of proof to support (at least nothing you've posted here, unless you can show us "people are no longer paying now" you're just making stuff up...

    I genuinely like reading your posts even when I don't agree, but you've got a clear trend going here. You make up an assertion out of thin air and then occasionally demand that other people disprove your "make believe" points. I'm guessing that's where you're going to head with this one. I'll just say: it's believable to me that perhaps less people are pre ordering this one, if only because it's less novel and new, and seems less featured. But that said clearly not to the "no longer paying now" extent you're implying, at least not if all the owl bear and missing costume posts are any indication.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    2. What you are saying is not how the f2p model works. When games go f2p they know full well that there will be a high headcount of players that will not pay a dime. This is acceptable because of the lower percentage of big spenders who will play with those who do not spend paying far more than the average sub would be if it was a sub game. If those freebie players werent there, the game is a ghost town, which big spenders will stop logging into.
    This is a valid point, but a two edged sword, yes the game needs populace to appear healthy, it even needs populace to keep people spending money (*because the appearance of DoooM can make people put their wallet away)... However it does not need players who are specifically unwilling to spend money, it can replace them with new ones who might spend money. My point remains, an incontrovertible law of business... if your expenses exceed your revenue for long enough you go out of business or shut that product line down...

    On the other hand a F2P model that lets "leeches" go away at about the same rate they are replaced by new players who MIGHT spend money, is probably the healthiest model. As long as the number you reach equilibrium at is a large enough number to make the game look and feel healthy.

    Making the game appear populated can be accomplished by MANY means, including new technology (one LFM panel spanning all servers = cross server play), making the LFM system more prevalent and easier to use, and less punitive and restrictive would all accomplish making the game appear more healthy. Even a server merge can accomplish that, and I might add reducing servers reduces overhead.

    This idea that Turbine must pack the players in and encourage them to stay no matter what quality they are is overly simplistic, and not even necessary. There's more than one way to make the game appear healthy and full of players. There are means to that end. Like advertizing more to increase new players, replacing the old ones that churn out.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    If you don't want to pay, then IMO feel free to move on, you're nothing but a drag on server resources and a user of expensive bandwidth
    Thanks for sharing, but you don't make the rules. Anyone who is Premium has purchased their game access until the servers shut down. They have absolutely no obligation to spend any money to enjoy what they have already purchased. If the end result is that the servers shut down, that is Turbine's fault for failing to craft products which are enticing enough to warrant purchasing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    This is really starting to be a hard sell for me. Unless they are recieving daily trasfer trucks full of raw materials, laying 1000's of miles of copper lines, or shooting satellites into space it's really hard (for me) to see some huge upkeep expenses to keep the games running outside of employee salaries.
    Pretty much this.

    In commercial quantities, computing power, bandwidth and storage are incredibly cheap in the small increments used by individual players. What is expensive is salaries, which is why game updates and even patches are what are on the line for being cut.

    This game will likely stumble along for quite a while, much like Asheron's Call does today. Anyone who thinks the Asheron's Call game experience is acceptable likely has nothing to worry about for quite some time.

  11. #171
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    You don't have to believe it, that's common for anyone who's never run a business to think it's all profit and maniacal laughter to the bank. But refusing to believe it and thinking that they are running some sort of money printing machine is simply not a knowledgeable stance.

    For starters something like 90% of all MMO's ever made have already failed.

    The game industry average salary is $80,000 last time I looked anyone who's read one of my posts on this subject before knows this and is probably groaning about now. A leased office space can cost tens of thousands of dollars per month, work place insurance, company matching benefits (health and retirement), unemployment insurance.

    Then there's the server hosting, bandwidth which is rented (leeches use bandwidth, bandwidth costs money), and a host of support staff, phone support, GM's, server admins, moderators, a cleaning crew they contract...

    Quarterly tax payments. If you've never had to make a quarterly tax payment it's a rather harsh reality.

    But hey it's all paid for and more by those sweet sweet subscriptions right?... Raking it in 10 dollars a month?

    Or is it? At $80,000 and assuming a conservative 50 hour work week and 52 weeks that's roughly 30 dollars an hour (now remember "salary" is what the EMPLOYEE MAKES, it is NOT what Turbine PAYS... (in other discussions over this some have not gotten this fact of reality) That's called "industry average labor cost" not salary. Turbines cost on a industry average salary is significantly higher than 80k, because of things the average non business owner has no idea about, state unemployment insurance, for example, company matching benefits and other government related taxes that vary by state, but are not generally part of "withholding".

    So recognizing that 80k or $30 an hour is a conservative number, a single paid subscription per month is worth how much? That's right, ONE THIRD OF A MAN HOUR. (significantly less than that actually but I can't estimate Turbine's tax, matching and unemployment insurance liability). Still think you're entitled for Turbine to appease your every whim?
    Nice rebuttal. It would indeed be hard to pay all of this with a single subscription. So every single dollar or subscription you can pull in is absolutely needed to not become one of the 90% of failed mmos out there. Now that it sounds like a very risky business to take part in their decisions are making much more sense. I think. No wait...

  12. #172
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Wrong. It's a rip-off compared to what they offer in similar packs. Gianthold is $10 for 10ish quests, two raids, and is bother heroic and epic. it's also awesome.

    $30 for two packs . . . with no raid . . . is a rip off. I'll buy it when on sale with points I bought last year because it's not worth more than that.
    Don't see three new sub races known as Iconics, among other things in eGH, nor any new monsters except one Dracholich (cool as that is) in fact besides a little loot based off stuff that already existed it's really just one raid and a new boss. and a bunch of quests that existed nearly verbatim all ready.

    But hey I'm not trying to tell you your subjective idea of value is wrong, or my subjective idea of value is right. merely that I personally have no problem paying for that expansion, I already have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Yes.
    Well then good luck with that.
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 06-19-2013 at 02:05 PM.

  13. #173
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post
    Thanks for sharing, but you don't make the rules. Anyone who is Premium has purchased their game access until the servers shut down. They have absolutely no obligation to spend any money to enjoy what they have already purchased. If the end result is that the servers shut down, that is Turbine's fault for failing to craft products which are enticing enough to warrant purchasing.
    No I don't make the rules which is why I expressed that as "in my opinion"...

    If that last sentence is enough to make you feel better if they shut it down, or went into "bare minimum" mode, good for you. I actually like the game enough that something like that would be very disappointing, IMO anyone who doesn't really care is either lying, or has just nothing whatever to do with their time than write about a game they don't care about, either way, pretty pathetic.

    I am also a premium player, if you don't buy new content fine, your choice, don't play the new content. Easy enough?


    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post
    In commercial quantities, computing power, bandwidth and storage are incredibly cheap in the small increments used by individual players.
    We're not talking about individual players, we're talking about a percentage of the entire user base.

    And again, if they can replace the disaffected unhappy complainers who protest by loudly exclaiming they wont spend money; with a new player who MIGHT spend money, then it's a net win for them. "might" has a much higher profit margin than "never".

    Believe it or not these expansion packs have exactly that side effect, at least some people who wont pay will wander off, and the PR from the new pack will bring in new players. How much of which is anyone guess, but churn is a documented business tool. For the same reason Best Buy will throw away or bulk resale at pennies on the dollar perfectly good products to make room for new items on their shelves...

  14. #174
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    I actually like the game enough that something like that would be very disappointing, IMO anyone who doesn't really care is either lying, or has just nothing whatever to do with their time than write about a game they don't care about, either way, pretty pathetic.

    We're not talking about individual players, we're talking about a percentage of the entire user base.

    And again, if they can replace the disaffected unhappy complainers who protest by loudly exclaiming they wont spend money; with a new player who MIGHT spend money, then it's a net win for them. "might" has a much higher profit margin than "never".
    It wouls be pretty pathetic for people to hang around making posts about a game they don't care about. I don't think anyone would bother. Only people that care would.

    We're talking about individual players when it comes to subscriptions though, at least in your replies. It seems that there is one single subscriber out there in you're examples that somehow thinks that his single input of $10 will keep the world running.

    I'm not sure you understand that the disaffected unhappy complainers who are protesting loudly are virtually DYING to give their money to the game. Why throw away those complainers who are waiting in the wings to once again throw money into the system for some new player that MIGHT spend money. It would seem that drawing them both in would make the most sense.

  15. #175
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    The MMOholic that spends four hundred dollars playing DDO for two months, makes 20 people decide not to play anymore, and then moves on - has far, far less worth than a casual player spending an average of 5 dollars a month for 80 months but who has made the game enjoyable for countless hundreds of others.

    I'd also add that your entire vision of having lots of people actively working on DDO simultaneously is a rather unrealistic and bizarre painting. The people who work on DDO full time can probably be counted on two hands if not one. Turbine has multiple projects going, and many of their resources are shared across all of them.
    I don't agree, but it's a pointless distinction as work flow just scales relative to the manpower on hand in any labor environment.

    I'm curious where you conclude that anyone who spends 400 dollars in 2 months is automatically bad for the game where the people who pay over longer periods are the knights in shining armor who welcome others? Do you have any facts to back that up or is it just a fictional scenario?

    IMO there's no correlation between "big spender" and "makes people quit" nor is there any correlation between "spends a little over a long time" and "has a heart of gold".

  16. #176
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    I do feel like, at this point, they have everything to gain and very little to lose by doing a server merge. As a result of making most of the end-game gear tradeable, now it is much easier to get yourself out so end-game LFMs dry up very quickly as people get what they want and stop playing til the next expansion/update.

    Merging servers would reduce server overhead costs and increase the amount of players on the merged server so there would be more groups and therefore more players who would stick around, as opposed to quitting because they log on every day and see there are no groups, and lack the desire/experience to try to fill one of their own so they log off five minutes later.

  17. #177
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    You don't have to believe it, that's common for anyone who's never run a business to think it's all profit and maniacal laughter to the bank. But refusing to believe it and thinking that they are running some sort of money printing machine is simply not a knowledgeable stance.

    For starters something like 90% of all MMO's ever made have already failed.

    The game industry average salary is $80,000 last time I looked anyone who's read one of my posts on this subject before knows this and is probably groaning about now. A leased office space can cost tens of thousands of dollars per month, work place insurance, company matching benefits (health and retirement), unemployment insurance.

    Then there's the server hosting, bandwidth which is rented (leeches use bandwidth, bandwidth costs money), and a host of support staff, phone support, GM's, server admins, moderators, a cleaning crew they contract...

    Quarterly tax payments. If you've never had to make a quarterly tax payment it's a rather harsh reality.

    But hey it's all paid for and more by those sweet sweet subscriptions right?... Raking it in 10 dollars a month?

    Or is it? At $80,000 and assuming a conservative 50 hour work week and 52 weeks that's roughly 30 dollars an hour (now remember "salary" is what the EMPLOYEE MAKES, it is NOT what Turbine PAYS... (in other discussions over this some have not gotten this fact of reality) That's called "industry average labor cost" not salary. Turbines cost on a industry average salary is significantly higher than 80k, because of things the average non business owner has no idea about, state unemployment insurance, for example, company matching benefits and other government related taxes that vary by state, but are not generally part of "withholding".

    So recognizing that 80k or $30 an hour is a conservative number, a single paid subscription per month is worth how much? That's right, ONE THIRD OF A MAN HOUR. (significantly less than that actually but I can't estimate Turbine's tax, matching and unemployment insurance liability). Still think you're entitled for Turbine to appease your every whim?
    Sorry, but I dot feel sympathy for poorly run businesses. Not saying that Turbine is one or anything just that the priviledge and opportunities that America provides to business owners can not be understated. You sound like you just got out of business school me I work with in depth 40ish different businesses a year some as small as 5 employees and others as large as 100k employees and quite frankly I do not have a lot of sympathy for poorly run businesses in the United States.

    So if you are asking me to somehow emphasize with Turbine because DDO has made it as an MMO with the lucrative endorsement of Wizards of the Coast as the only Dungeons and Dragons MMO for the first 5+ years of existance. I am not going to do it.
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  18. #178
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    I'm not sure you understand that the disaffected unhappy complainers who are protesting loudly are virtually DYING to give their money to the game. Why throw away those complainers who are waiting in the wings to once again throw money into the system for some new player that MIGHT spend money. It would seem that drawing them both in would make the most sense.
    How many of those "DYING to give their money to the game" are waiting on reasonable realistic design changes? What you don't know either? Well I assumed that since you seem "understand" that everyone's just holding back the money until they get what they want that you also "understand" what it is that they want

    As seems to be a common theme in this thread how are we determining that the disaffected are all just chomping at the bit to spend money? I'm sure some of them are that seems likely. maybe just as many that wont spend any more money at all, and the ones that simply claim to not spend any money but actually are. I'm also sure that some of the most vocal disaffected disenfranchised players are simply at the end of their ability to be entertained by the game and that seems likely as well. I've been one of those guys in previous MMO's so thats one of those "it takes one to know one" things.

    From reading here it seems obvious that a number of them also have "demands" that are utterly impossible/far fetched/wishfull... Getting them to throw money at the game by implementing a terrible idea (like get rid of Dungeon Alert or I'm never spending any more money; as an example) would have negative impact on the entire player base (increased lag and server resource based instability according to Turbine) how much money can they throw around to compensate for people leaving over that?

  19. #179
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    IMO there's no correlation between "big spender" and "makes people quit" nor is there any correlation between "spends a little over a long time" and "has a heart of gold".
    I agree that there is no correlation.

    All i can say is from my perspective the more P2Win the store gets the less I spend.

  20. #180
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    How many of those "DYING to give their money to the game" are waiting on reasonable realistic design changes? What you don't know either? Well I assumed that since you seem "understand" that everyone's just holding back the money until they get what they want that you also "understand" what it is that they want
    Content instead of useless P2Win junk is an unrealistic expectation?

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