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  1. #1
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Default Epic "Advantage" needs to be optional

    Do whatever you want with "epic" TR, it's a new feature that you can make as dumb as you want. We can chose to simply ignore it.

    But the changes to Heroic TR are just not acceptable. This is bait and switch, we never would have bothered maxing out Destinies if we'd been informed that they would eventually go away with a TR.

    Epic "advantage" is pure dreck, whoever came up this this idea is clueless and should be moved off of DDO. This will simply stop people from TRing.

    Make this horrible idea optional.


    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post

    Epic Advantage


    With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)

  2. #2
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Adding to this . . . if Epic "Advantage" was optional I don't think anyone would have a problem with this new system.

  3. #3
    The Hatchery Paleus's Avatar
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    Agreed. When reading the changes I was getting excited about a lot of good things being added, some even that I've asked for. Then I see the 'any TR' resets ED XP unless it was bonded, and you only get one bond per TR and it sucker-punches all of the positives with an extreme negative. If they took that out, reversed it so that you only lose the ED XP you TR from not the rest, or made it optional then I would be likely to continue playing to accrue Iconic, Epic TRs, and experience new content. Leave it as is, and I am likely to completely bypass the whole system for the majority of my characters, or the game altogether.
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    i'll be putting a bug into our system.

  4. #4
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    I mentioned in the other thread, but I'll repost here as it seems more appropriate. Firstly, I think that epic "advantage" should not be a part of heroic TR at all. To call it an advantage is to call finding a penny on the street an advantage after someone stole your wallet. It's a slap in the face more than an advantage and pretending that it's some sort of bonus is just insulting the players that just gave up 20 mil+ for it. Heroic TR is fine as is. Invalidating the work of players who didn't do anything wrong is just reinforcing the idea that they either shouldn't try (as their work can be gone on a whim) or just join the exploiters (as they are being punished all the same anyway)

    Now on to a slightly more constructive thought. If Epic advantage is to stay I'd like to see an Stone of Experience (+1 level) awarded for each maxed destiny upon any TR instead of +1 rank (added on to the start at level 1). In this way, we can choose which levels to skip and when. We could bank stones which we choose not to use on any given life and the "epic advantage" can be used on levels where it actually makes an impact. You could skip level 19 and 20 for instance or you could use 8 stones and skip all of level 21 - 28 and max out another 2+ destinies prior to another EDTR.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Adding to this . . . if Epic "Advantage" was optional I don't think anyone would have a problem with this new system.
    Well... I am seeing people that totally dislike TRing but yet they are still complaining about a grind they would never take part of. So people kind of have weird problems about it.

    Even though it's totally **** that they will wipe all ED, I still think it has to be that way. Otherwise someone with full maxed ED will chain TR their ED one by one (because of course they want to only redo 20-28 to get those PLs) and will reacquire the one lost just by re-leveling. That makes no sense at all and it's way too easy to achieve.

    The optional part, I think, is important here. Because that's what make it ok that Turbine choses how big the grind is. If it wasn't optional then that would be total BS. I'm a power gamer and within the present rules, I might Epic TR ONCE. Then never do it again.

    And again i'll repeat what I've posted in the other thread: To do an Epic TR, you have to level from 20-28 and also level the destiny you want to TR. Or again, people would just chain TR using their maxed out best dps ED to level up to 28. Now what this new system pushes you to do is to chose your class accordingly to the ED you want to TR so it will help you during the leveling process.

    Anyway that's how I see it... and even though it didn't make sense at all at first, now it does.

    Change to Heroic TR: now that's another story.

    Edit: I still think it's disgusting to wipe all EDs though. Just seems that it has to be that way for Epic TRs.

    Edit2: Think I was pretty much off subject. Sorry, just woke up.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 06-13-2013 at 09:20 AM.
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  6. #6
    Community Member merentha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    ... only redo 20-28 to get those PLs
    Granted it's such a huge dev post so much can and is probably being misconstrued, but I understood it as you had to re-level 1-28 each time to get the PDL (Past Destiny Lives..tm pending) Feats.

  7. #7
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merentha View Post
    Granted it's such a huge dev post so much can and is probably being misconstrued, but I understood it as you had to re-level 1-28 each time to get the PDL (Past Destiny Lives..tm pending) Feats.
    no, you read that right. I think if you TR into an Iconic you can start at 15 though.

  8. #8
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Good luck on your quest to make a crappy game change "optional". If it should happen you'll be the first to have pulled it off.

  9. #9
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    Good luck on your quest to make a crappy game change "optional". If it should happen you'll be the first to have pulled it off.
    Challenge accepted. never underestimate the power of troll.

  10. #10
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    I doubt the 'optional' aspect of it, too...just try to see how 'optional' heroic TRing is if you try to run endgame content on a first life character. Especially on a DC caster. If they introduce Destiny PL feats, be assured that they'll end up being de facto required to actually be effective in L28 content.

    That being said, you're looking at it from the lens of a vet character. For new characters, Epic Advantage is a godsend. You get +1 starting levels each new life, because each destiny you bond means +5 ranks of Epic Advantage each time around. So by the time you're done, you're starting at L12 each time, and can pretty much jump right into Sands-GH-Orchard-Vale-Epic again.

    But I agree, there needs to be a way for vets to preserve all the work they've already put into their EDs, rather than just giving them a Sophies Choice with them.

  11. #11
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Challenge accepted. never underestimate the power of troll.
    As for game changes I put my faith in the power of whine. Otherwise I think breasts get the most done.

  12. #12
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    never underestimate the power of troll.
    Turbine seems to be doing a pretty decent job of trolling so I have to ask if you're capable of out-trolling them.
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  13. #13
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I doubt the 'optional' aspect of it, too...just try to see how 'optional' heroic TRing is if you try to run endgame content on a first life character.
    I have a first life halfling rogue assassin, a first life dwarf tank, a first life no-DC WF earth savant, and a first life support cleric. They all work fine on Epic normal and Epic Hard. The rogue in special was my only character good enough pre-motu to reliably run old epics, as long as he could deliever sneak damage.

    So, I don't buy this whole "TRing is not optional" thing.
    Main: Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist [<o>]

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    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  14. #14
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    Turbine seems to be doing a pretty decent job of trolling so I have to ask if you're capable of out-trolling them.
    Yes.

  15. #15
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    I have a first life halfling rogue assassin, a first life dwarf tank, a first life no-DC WF earth savant, and a first life support cleric. They all work fine on Epic normal and Epic Hard. The rogue in special was my only character good enough pre-motu to reliably run old epics, as long as he could deliever sneak damage.

    So, I don't buy this whole "TRing is not optional" thing.
    By that logic, everything in the game including the game itself is optional. Taking level 2? optional. Taking the gold out of the chest? optional. Grouping? optional. But that is also the biggest strength of a game like this. Everything is optional.

    Players choose their own goals and they "win" by accomplishing their goals. TR'ing is optional to you. It's optional to everyone, but to those that have a goal that includes TR'ing, it's not optional for them if they want enjoyment out of the game. Taking away a current option and replacing it with a less desirable option produces a negative effect on a player like this. You don't have to understand it. You don't have to like it, but there are a great many players out there that are upset by this proposed (optional) change because it interferes with their personal goals and enjoyment of the game. Whether you agree or not, people are upset. Upset players tend to leave the game rather than stick around. I don't want to lose players if it can be helped. Therefore, not annoying players that enjoy the current TR system should be of importance to Turbine, even if some people consider it completely optional and have no negative feeling toward the proposed change.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Adding to this . . . if Epic "Advantage" was optional I don't think anyone would have a problem with this new system.
    I agree. As I stated in the other thread, I'm not thrilled about Epic TR'ing wiping all but one destiny but I can live with that because it's a new system.

    What I won't take part in is a change to the current TR system being forced on us that wipes ED xp. As an option? Sure! Go for it! It'll be especially useful to players that decide to do the Epic TR grind, that bind several destinies, and then decide they want to start heroic TR'ing again. They can do so, get a boost every heroic TR, and lose nothing! That would be an amazing mechanic. And this entire system is NOT a bad system. It just needed to be in place on day one and since it wasn't they need to make serious concessions to the people that would be negatively effected by those changes or else they'll lose a lot of customers and alienate a far greater number than they lose.

    An option of whether to heroic TR under the old system or the new system is all it would take to take the volume of protests down from angry mob with pitchforks and torches down to grumpy cat level.
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  17. #17
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    By that logic, everything in the game including the game itself is optional. Taking level 2? optional. Taking the gold out of the chest? optional. Grouping? optional. But that is also the biggest strength of a game like this. Everything is optional.

    Players choose their own goals and they "win" by accomplishing their goals. TR'ing is optional to you. It's optional to everyone, but to those that have a goal that includes TR'ing, it's not optional for them if they want enjoyment out of the game. Taking away a current option and replacing it with a less desirable option produces a negative effect on a player like this. You don't have to understand it. You don't have to like it, but there are a great many players out there that are upset by this proposed (optional) change because it interferes with their personal goals and enjoyment of the game. Whether you agree or not, people are upset. Upset players tend to leave the game rather than stick around. I don't want to lose players if it can be helped. Therefore, not annoying players that enjoy the current TR system should be of importance to Turbine, even if some people consider it completely optional and have no negative feeling toward the proposed change.
    I'm not entirely sure he's against the TR changes, nothing he said in that post says so anyway. I share his opinion about "first life" My First life toons do just fine, granted I don't judge them only by EE Gianthold as so many seem to..

    On the other hand I think the change to Heroic TR's that forces ED XP loss is rubbish, and almost laughably bad game design.

    I don't TR much, this change will ensure that I never ever participate in any of the reincarnation mechanics. As I am completely uninterested in farming 11+ ED's 2 or more times (remember we have Arti and Cleric ED's left to go) no matter what perks they hand out.

    You can give my character a big Letter S on its chest, a red cape, and perma fly spell in all content including public areas, with a big airplane advertizing banner tied to it's ankle that reads "I am the GOD OF DDO YOU MUST ALL BOW" and then make every character in the game do a Bowing emote against their will as I pass... and I am still not in the slightest interested.

    I would however like to have the option to occasionally Heroic TR a toon WITHOUT losing 20,000,000 ED XP

  18. #18
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    By that logic, everything in the game including the game itself is optional. Taking level 2? optional. Taking the gold out of the chest? optional. Grouping? optional. But that is also the biggest strength of a game like this. Everything is optional.
    Its not relevant to what I posted. I just said that first life characters can work fine as is on epic normal and epic hard. Thus, TRing is not obrigatory.

    I also disagree with the policy of wiping ED XP on heroic TR.
    Main: Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist [<o>]

    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma

    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Do whatever you want with "epic" TR, it's a new feature that you can make as dumb as you want. We can chose to simply ignore it.

    But the changes to Heroic TR are just not acceptable. This is bait and switch, we never would have bothered maxing out Destinies if we'd been informed that they would eventually go away with a TR.

    Epic "advantage" is pure dreck, whoever came up this this idea is clueless and should be moved off of DDO. This will simply stop people from TRing.

    Make this horrible idea optional.
    /signed, with blood if necessary.

    Because as it stands now, who I their right mind would step into an epic other than to get epic tokens or help a friend get an epic weapon/item.

    IT MUST BE OPTIONAL!

  20. #20
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Turbine has always been self-serving, but this makes no sense. If we can skip heroic levels with this ED TR crapola, this is a definite drop in sales from people buying heroic adventure packs and all the goodies from heroic levels. That makes this a ridiculous idea.

    I can also see people becoming instant level 20 and not having a clue about how to play their class (if they've never done it, before). Heck, half the game is playing through heroic levels and enjoying getting that magic 4.378mil exp.

    This could very easily be made optional. Just go through the motions like you do making a new character with veteran status, except you always have the option to start from level 1. Or even give veteran 4/7 status to TR's. That's an even better idea than this ED TRing thing. I'd love to skip the boring lvl 1-6 grind.

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