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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I'm sure this won't be a popular opinion, but IMO anyone who "grinds" XP and then feels unhappy about it being "lost" has missed the entire point of playing a game. It's supposed to be about having fun, not enduring hours of tedium to "get somewhere". If you find yourself miserable, you're doing something wrong.

    Also, what's the big attachment to XP at the epic levels anyway? I used to be impressed with the millions of XP that epic-level players had, until I recently played some of the epic content myself. Basically, you can't swing a dead cat above level 20 without getting boatloads of XP. For kicks I joined a Rusted Blades group for a few runs (even though I was only level 22) and my guess is that those people were pulling over 500,000 XP per hour easily. Try getting even a tenth of that at level 18.

    I ran Beyond the Rift on epic normal, just a poorly-geared paladin and a hire, and we blew through the whole thing without even needing a rest shrine and got over 20,000 XP in just a few minutes.

    In short, epic XP is a joke. The current epic system could very much benefit from overhauling and expansion and it's a good thing to give people options beyond just getting to the "end game", which everyone will be continually bored with no matter how many raids they add. Just as everyone got bored with it before epic levels came around.
    Not everyone plays that way. In fact I would guess that the majority of players are not "powergamers" - they are casual players who only have a few hours to play here and there. Those players value the progress they make because they don't have a lot of time. If you simply delete that progress, people will be angry.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrande View Post
    Even if we do loose Epic XP, may be that is intentional since most of our Epic XP may be from House of Rusted Blades, House of the Undying, Impoossible Demands or Jungles of Khyber. May be the intent of the developers (our DMs) here do not think that those Epic XP earned there is deemed appropriate for Epic TR.
    Not everyone plays this way. Me and my static group do not grind quests. The EDs we have so far are from running quests one time, not grinding them over and over. If they want to penalize people who play the the way you describe, they should look at their logs and penalize only those people.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We know enough, black and white it's been stated that all TRs blank out your ED XP. That is what we want reversed.
    The massive corporate greed driving game design and play mechanics simply makes it one more area to avoid now. This change, coupled with the current stupid noises coming on from the "enhancement pass" area are enough for me to tell the Turbine Conglomerate to collectively shove it.

    Waiting until after the expansion sales to tell us that they plan on shafting us, and making huge changes to the game (that suck) is pretty rude, too.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    Like regular TRs it's not a needed BONUS. Are you crushing content atm? If yes, do you really need "epic" TR? Then why not simply ignore it?

    It's something extra and new for those wishing to acquire even more power... it's not something that's being imposed to anyone as far as I know. Though agreed that's one grind I doubt i'll take part of, I don't see any ways it can be enjoyable with the current epic content.
    Because ignoring i won't make it go away and turbine likes to balance according with the expectation that you have the extra goodies, ala DC casting.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Not everyone plays this way. Me and my static group do not grind quests. The EDs we have so far are from running quests one time, not grinding them over and over. If they want to penalize people who play the the way you describe, they should look at their logs and penalize only those people.
    No, they should not. Penalizing players for things not against the rules? Your kidding right? The finger pointing starts and ends with Turbine.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    No, it's something said recognizing that the decision to grind out full epic destinies is a choice, not a requirement.

    I agree that Turbine should not set up a system where people are led to believe a particular method building characters makes sense, and then radically change it. But the idea that this grinding is required is complete bunk.

    Grinding is only necessary for people who create self-invented competitions between themselves and other players. The world doesn't actually end if you don't have every destiny fully maxed out. In fact, you might have more fun just playing the game rather than always trying to grind out some vision of a "perfect character".

    The problem with people getting upset over losing XP is mostly tied to the fact that they didn't have fun getting the XP in the first place. That's partially Turbine's fault, but a lot of it rests on the players themselves.
    No, it is tied to taking away what they feel they earned, but hey if that's really how you feel, gimme a few hundred bucks of your hard earned money, if that's chump change make it thousands, whatever amount would hurt. Better?

  7. #67
    The Hatchery SisAmethyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    No, it's something said recognizing that the decision to grind out full epic destinies is a choice, not a requirement.

    I agree that Turbine should not set up a system where people are led to believe a particular method building characters makes sense, and then radically change it. But the idea that this grinding is required is complete bunk.

    Grinding is only necessary for people who create self-invented competitions between themselves and other players. The world doesn't actually end if you don't have every destiny fully maxed out. In fact, you might have more fun just playing the game rather than always trying to grind out some vision of a "perfect character".

    The problem with people getting upset over losing XP is mostly tied to the fact that they didn't have fun getting the XP in the first place. That's partially Turbine's fault, but a lot of it rests on the players themselves.
    One point for example is that right now you have to start with a particular ED that might be 3 or 4 EDs away from your final goal. So no matter if it is done by grind or just by flower sniffing passing by you have to get that XP and ED in between. So we all should praise and sing a hallelujah for loosing that? What exactly is fun in loosing something?

    This has nothing to do with having fun playing that game or not, because if we all wouldn't we wouldn't be here anymore...
    * We have collectable bags, hell even hireling folders, but can I have that 6-pack for my potions please?
    * Having already a past life on the dieng EU servers, I rerolled here and started from scratch as I like the game and the community, so lets see what awaits me here

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    I would go one step further - determine all your characters you wish to TR and do so right now. This change to the system should not be retroactive.
    This was my thought too- My wife and I look to play the game, we are NOT interested in getting Completionist (or playing classes that we don't want to play just to get other Past Lives).
    Epic Destinies (as they are currently) offer some semblance of usefulness without grinding out 15 lives of classes we are not good at.
    I think the closer this gets, we'll just TR prior to implementation (in order to get some characters to 36 pt) and then just park our mains at cap.
    Last edited by Arnez; 06-13-2013 at 09:49 PM.

  9. #69
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    Retracted, as frustration led to an over exuberant misrepresention of the facts...
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 06-14-2013 at 06:47 AM.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    Because ignoring i won't make it go away and turbine likes to balance according with the expectation that you have the extra goodies, ala DC casting.
    Yeah well... at that point I didn't know or had forgotten... or maybe just couldn't believe still that Heroic TR would wipe EDs as well. That's just too hard to grasp.
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

    ...And then there was silence

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    1. Insert arbitrary unreasonably long grind, for no other reason than making it longer.
    2. Wait it out - lots of complaints occur. Eventually complaints die down to a minimum.
    3. Insert paid method of mitigating arbitrary unreasonably long grind into store.
    4. ???
    5. Profit. The players rejoice.

    As TR occurred, so shall epic TR. Soon enough most people will forget the entire fact that the only reason people want to pay to mitigate the grind is because of the arbitrary irritation designed into it, as they express their full support of allowing us to pay to save time.

    With no raid, I was wondering what was going to replace timer bypass as the money maker. We just found out.
    I know you're pretty much spot on with this but since it's their game and their rules... once they do stuff like that you've got 2 options: deal with it or leave the game. It's not like if our voices can have such an impact on the way they will attempt to milk us while I believe it can have an impact on the way the game is played.

    It's not just that people forget, it is that they like the game enought to play within the new rules and that means that the boundaries haven't yet been reached for most players. Or that income are good enought even by pushing out some people by making those changes. I for one didn't buy the expansion and if this Heroic TR wiping ED change really makes it live I don't see myself ever playing this game out of heroic levels. Dropping 1 month VIP when I feel like running a life maybe 2-3 times a year. This is such a bad idea it can't even go live.
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

    ...And then there was silence

  12. #72
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    Angry This will make me stop playing sooner than I otherwise would

    I doubt this will make me leave the game right away.

    But since I probably won't be willing to give up the epic xp gained on any of my characters (full twists), I will feel locked out of a way to progress in-game. I know that will make me lose interest in playing and will make me play less and stop much sooner rather than later.

    IMO it will be a very bad move to make TR'ing delete almost all epic xp.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    That might be a great plan, pending how you answer the next two questions:

    1) When the AC/PRR changes to the combat system took place, did you need to use any form of reincarnation to account for or adapt to the changes?

    2) When the enhancement pass hits, will you need to use any form of reincarnation to account for or adapt to the changes?

    If the answer to both is no, you may indeed be fine with this course of action.

    However, if the answer to either is yes, consider this:

    Should Turbine make yet another major system change at any point after this change to the reincarnation system, and should that change require some form of reincarnation in order to adapt to it; you will then have to re-earn all unbound destinies that you wish to benefit from.

    Sounds a bit paranoid maybe, but what the hey... They've only done it twice so far...
    You may be right, but I believe you are misinterpreting the bolded part. The dev post specifically said that the loss of unbound ED would occur upon any True Reincarnation. Lesser reincarnation is not true reincarnation. It seems pretty clear that he (or she) was only meaning the use of a True Druidic Heart.

    I find this change mostly distressing in that it has the potential to make it hard for me to find people to group with. My best friend in this game cancelled his VIP yesterday because of Glin's post, and he and I team up a lot. If there are others having that reaction, the lfm scene will be even more dreary than it already is. I should only lose maybe three EDs across my toons, because I have just been doing one ED per life, and I don't knock out lives very fast. My friend, on the other hand, I believe had maxed out all but maybe one or two of his stable. He's much more upset than I am. Looks like I'll have to get more interested in soloing.

    It's a big change and probably needs a great deal of thought as to how to deal with it. I'll probably use the method of leveling to 28 to bind an ED and get a PL feat. It means I'll take even longer to get through each life, which makes it less than optimal, but if that's the way it works then so be it. I don't have any set goal for completionism, but eventually it seems like the natural course for any toon to end up on. There are 11 EDs and 13 classes, so I guess there will still be about six runs from level 12 to 20 after ED completionist is achieved in order to finish heroic completionist. To do that on one toon will take me years. For all of them, I have my mode of recreation for the remainder of my lifetime.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkin_dude View Post
    You may be right, but I believe you are misinterpreting...
    Good catch & thanx, seems I got a bit too wound up there... Edited accordingly.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    This is how I read it (I don't have the stomach for reading the entire linked thread and would only be interested in developer comments anyhow - so I'm open to correction if more dev comments are in the thread):



    On its face, is this really that stomach churning?

    Let's say I start a new project:

    1. Take toon to the new cap 28, maxing maybe 1 to 2 destinies along the way. There is a mention about adjusting the ED XP curve so maybe I'll cap 3 -5 destinies to 28 naturally.
    2. Select an active ED then ED TR and Karmic bond whatever the active destiny is. The ED destiny is now bonded permanently, so I never have to re-earn that particular ED XP again (makes sense, because ED past life is not said to stack).
    3. Remaining ED XP gives ranks at my next life.
    4. Get back to 28, maxing another 3 - 5 destinies just as a course of getting to 28.
    5. Select an 2nd active ED then ED TR and Karmic bond whatever the active destiny is. The 2nd ED destiny is now bonded permanently as well, so I never have to re-earn that particular ED XP again (makes sense, because ED past life is not said to stack).
    6. Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

    I can see how this is in a sense a fair way to run the TR system in the future with EDs, and it seems more balanced than the way it works now. Now, as for all the people that already capped destinies so that they are instant powerhouses when they hit 20, which includes some of my toons, so yes, ours are probably the sacrificial XP lambs so that a better overall system can be moved to. In other words, you'll have to work fairly hard to get to the point where just getting to 20 gives you access to the entire active ED structure.

    Of course, you're not going to be able to grind XP like you do today because the repeat decay will set in.
    We are discussing heroic tr, not epic.


    Heroic True Reincarnation


    Heroic TR remains primarily unchanged at level 20 or above
    Grants a Class Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
    Adds 2 build points up to a 36 point build
    Benefits from the Epic Advantage if you earn Epic Destinies before TR (below)

    Epic Advantage


    With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)


    So in order to bond ed you need to epic tr, then you can heroic tr without losing that xp.
    Last edited by Ivan_Milic; 06-14-2013 at 08:12 AM.

  16. #76
    Uber Completionist luvirini's Avatar
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    For me it is quite easy from Piloto:s post:

    With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP
    So will not TR any character with epic XP unless the epic TR bonds all destinies XP at once, then will likely done ONE epic TR on few characters.

    but the character will be compensated for the burned XP
    Not an issue, as the compensation of few ranks in the beginning is totally meaningless half an hour saved (as you need to get your coin lord and house K favor early on anyway so getting few ranks will not help), so the compensation is simply not worth it.

    In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats.
    So please allow us to do this then, without losing existing ED progress.

    Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play
    The incentive today to avoid epic play is the stupid epic quests, not rewards, EDs give nice rewards if one played epic quests. So unless you make 50 more epic quests in the expansion to get the variety we have in heroic play.. it is not going to change much.

    You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat).
    And yet there are quite many characters with ED xp that are mostly played in 1-20 content, you are trying to force those characters to play ONLY level 1-20 content and Never epics and there is no incentive ever for such to play any epic quest after that.

    Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).
    That would require me to play quite many of those stupid epic quests.

    If a single epic TR allows me to lock all destinies then will likely hate it but play then to 28 once and then stay in the 1-20 game as no reason ever to play any epic quests after that.

    If a single epic TR will not lock all destinies XP then no character that has epic XP will likely even again TR and will be saying in 1-20 game with the characters that do not have any epic XP as they have no incentive to ever go above either so they will stop at 20 or be TRed from there if I feel like still playing after my completionist cannot be played further.


    So lets look at my characters with epic xp:

    My completionist: Level 15 (17th life now) with quite many EDs(6?) at level 4.
    Current system: TRing every time a new destiny hits level 4, then next round take them from 4 to cap.
    Proposed system: If the epic TR locks all epic XP for all destinies will epic TR once and then always TR immediately after reaching 20, not bothering with more epic quests ever as most epic quests are just boring.(yey! really "epic" quest when enemies have 20000 hit points instead of 200, but act exactly the same)
    If epic TR only locks only one destiny xp: will do a last life(greeting the expansion about level 1) and then be shelved.

    My wizard/rogue 25(third life) with most epic destinies at 4-5:
    Current system: eventually planning to TR to get third wizard past life, no special hurry as epic play is boring so not much played as instakills are all broken one way or another today.
    Proposed system:Never TR again, unless the epic TR will Lock the epic XP of all destinies. So will likely greet the expansion at level 1 and eventually played up to 20 then likely stuck there.

    My sorcerer 25(first life), few(4?) destinies at 4-5:
    Current system: not played much because epics are boring and sorcerers are broken with the spell crit thing.
    Propsed system: Not TRing either and not running either.

    My wizard/rogue 22(first life) one destiny at 4 and some other at 3 or similar:
    Current system: eventually planning to TR to get wizard past lifes, no special hurry as epic play is boring so not much played as instakills are all broken one way or another today.
    Proposed system:Never TR again, unless the epic TR will Lock the epic XP of all destinies and in that case the TR will likely be in few years. So will likely greet the expansion at level 1 and eventually played up to about 20 then likely stuck there.

    My wizard/rogue 19(second life) one destiny at 4 and some other at 3 or similar:
    Current system: eventually planning to TR to get wizard past lifes, no special hurry as epic play is boring so not much played as instakills are all broken one way or another today.
    Proposed system:Never TR again, unless the epic TR will Lock the epic XP of all destinies and in that case the TR will likely be in few years. So will likely greet the expansion at level 1 and eventually played up to about 20 then likely stuck there.

    My paladin/fighter 20(first life): one destiny at 4:
    Current system: eventually TR to get a better paladin build and paladin past life.
    Proposed system:Never TR again, unless the epic TR will Lock the epic XP of all destinies and in that case the TR will likely be in few years. So will likely greet the expansion at level 1 and eventually played up to about 20 again then likely stuck there again as currently.

    My bard/barbarian/rogue 23 (first life): one destiny 5, other 2:
    Current system: Not playing, as bards are kind of really boring in epics.
    Proposed system: same.

    And after they are all back at 20.. (few months), I guess it is back to making new alts, the thing that TR:ing fixed for me. and once the maximum number of character slots reached, I guess it is time to go play some other game.

    Currently I have been having fun TRing my completionist, as there are loads of quests at lower levels and only very few epic quests that feel the same.

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