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  1. #1761
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Just a head's up, guys, that epic TR will NOT wipe out your destiny xp or fate points.

    Epic TR will take you back to level 20 (with your same heroic build) but leave all your destinies intact.
    it's been confirmed on an ETR your race and classes stay the same?

  2. #1762

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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    Epic TR CAN take you back to 20, or it CAN take you back to level 1.
    I suspect that epic TR will only ever take you to 20. If you want to then start back at 1 you'll need to get a true heart and do a heroic tr as a second, independent action. At least that's what I get from this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    Doing so will not alter your earned Epic Destinies or Epic Destiny XP, and you can alternatively take a second step and reincarnate your Heroic levels to 1 and benefit from both a Heroic and Epic Past Life [PL] feat.
    Though this could be interpreted as being part of the epic TR itself, no true heart needed, so in that case you'd be right and I'd be wrong.




    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    it's been confirmed on an ETR your race and classes stay the same?
    From Vargouille:
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We currently expect the "return to level 20" part of Epic Reincarnation to essentially mean sacrificing your Epic class level progress (you keep Epic Destiny progress) while retaining your Heroic progress exactly as it is. There are other forms of Reincarnation for affecting Heroic advancement.

  3. #1763
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    Ok I already posted how I feel Epic Level TRs should be handled on the other thread.
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...rnation/page17

    How I think Iconic TR and current Heroic TR be handled better.

    First let us use the system that we already have in place more visual aids like the Epic Destiny screen or Enhancement. Lets call it Past Lives. To make it easily use 4 main circles all growing bigger from the smallest. Now lets us consider the smallest Completionist -> 1st life circle -> 2nd -> 3rd life. Now on each circle place all normal heroic classes and Iconic. Now each past life you've done will link to the lesser circle. So ex. would be 1st past life wizard would connect to completionist if they do another wizard life the 2nd life would connect to the first which is already connected to completionist.

    Now to make things a lot easier; Like Epic Destiny Innate abilities once you activate the Past life it gets pulled out to the window stacking all the skills for you as your destiny would. Now doing all this gives you better access to tweak and look at a complete skill tree. This also should be able to update who is a 2nd Life Completionist or a 3rd Life Completionist. Which should also be rewarded for there dedication. Lastly this would also allow you to take out the completionist as a feat and now more as a innate ability. Adding any class is just placing them on the circle and it of course would unlink completionist as this would require all classes to have a past life.

    Now back on topic Iconic TR - Personally since they start at lvl 15 because of there storyline I would have them remain there but in there case Epic TR and Heroic TR should be the same for them and should always start at lvl 15 regardless. Current Iconics lvl cap should remain at 28 just for a Heroic TR type of situation. Just in case when the DDO lvl cap does increase.

  4. #1764
    Community Member BinyaminTsadik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRobai View Post
    Now let me share some thoughts about Epic TR again.


    - all earned EDs xp stays except for the one chosen, which has to be capped
    ^This
    Instead of complaining that there are no healers, go roll one...

  5. #1765

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    LATEST STUFF:
    Gathering up all the Dev Tracker from this thread:
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-Reincarnation
    started 09-13-2013, 01:56 PM

    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    I am looking forward to providing everyone with the design details of proposed changes to the Reincarnation system in the coming weeks. Before we start rolling out the fact sheets and dev discussions, I intend to get in front of some of the greater concerns that players (and developers) have raised regarding our prior proposal for Epic Reincarnation.

    To get to the point: We have really changed direction from what was previously proposed; and I for one am very pleased that the systems team has taken that direction from 'power from pain' to something more palatable, like 'rewarded for efforts.'
    • Epic reincarnation will require level cap and "points" (TBD) in a "Destiny Sphere" (TBD). This will allow a character to reincarnate from Epic cap to level 20, with equivalent heroic XP.
    • Doing so will not alter your earned Epic Destinies or Epic Destiny XP, and you can alternatively take a second step and reincarnate your Heroic levels to 1 and benefit from both a Heroic and Epic Past Life [PL] feat.
    • As you level Epic Destinies you will gain points toward Epic Reincarnation in the active Destiny Sphere (e.g. Arcane, Divine, Martial, Primal). Furthermore, there is plan to grant retroactive progress for those of you working on your Epic Destinies today.

    Again, this is a departure from the previously shared proposal. The goals we set out to accomplish are still being met with these more generous alterations to the Epic Reincarnation design and I hope to share lots of detail changes in the next week (Soon TM).

    ~E
    Quote Originally Posted by ProducerRowan View Post
    Well, Maj Mal is one heck of a Trekkie.
    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    I'm a bit confused about the sphere xp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Our current plan for Epic Past Life feats is to tie a few of these feats to each Sphere, instead of tying each Past Life to a specific Epic Destiny.

    When you Epic Reincarnate you choose which sphere you want a past life from. For instance, if you want a Primal Past Life, you spend points earned while you had any primal Epic Destiny active, and you choose one feat to gain from the list of possible Primal Epic Past Life feats.

    The details regarding these Epic Past Lives are still being designed. Early thoughts are that these are likely to stack three times, like Heroic Past Lives.

    If you have amazing ideas for possible Epic Past Lives, now is a good time to try to squeak those ideas into our ears!

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    Just one question.
    What if I'm an Iconic and want an Iconic and Epic past life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    Not at the same time. (which is an answer that surely leads to more questions)
    We will have more on that when we go over the entire Reincarnation system... soon.
    Iconics will be able to gain the Epic PL, unlike the previous proposal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post

    A new word for Fawn:

    par·a·digm
    /?par??d?m/
    noun
    noun: paradigm;?plural noun: paradigms

    1. technical
    a typical example or pattern of something; a model.
    "there is a new paradigm for public art in this country"
    synonyms: model, pattern, example, exemplar, template, standard, prototype, archetype More

    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    A shift in such paradigm is when something you thought to be true is actually false... at least for my intended usage. We thought the world was flat, then we learned it is round. Or... we thought the Epic loop had to take you to Lv 1 and at great cost (and there were valid design reasons to do so). When that limitation was lifted a new pattern emerged.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gratch View Post

    Weird. I would have thought you'd treat iconics for TR purposes like a heroic class except that it gets to level 15 XP on the first life. Any TR's into iconics start at 1. Hence an Iconic TR would be similar to a Wizard TR and you could combine it with an epic TR as listed in your examples. Not sure why Iconics should care about epic stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    Yup. Iconics get a whole section on how they fit into TR.
    Reincarnation and Iconics is pretty straight forward but I think it makes more sense when the whole system is laid out.
    Quote Originally Posted by memloch View Post

    Will there be a passive and active component to the feats like Heroic?

    For completionist do Iconics need to be completed as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    To clarify our thinking on earning points in a Sphere: You continue to earn points in the sphere of your active Epic Destiny even if your Epic Destiny is capped on XP. There is a cap on the points you can earn in a Sphere, and you spend these points when performing Epic Reincarnation. Sphere points act like currency, even though they are normally earned alongside experience.

    (Eventually we're going to come up with a real name besides "points in a Sphere".)



    We are leaning towards not doing this in the same way as Heroic Past Lives. We'd rather spend time making the granted Past Lives better. However, we are considering having activated, granted Past Lives, so activated abilities are still a possibility.



    Iconic Heroes are essentially a separate system with their own design.

    It is unlikely that Epic Completionist would involve Iconic Past Lives.
    Iconic Heroes can perform Epic Reincarnations like any other character.
    We don't currently intend for the existing Heroic Completionist to be affected by Epic or Iconic Past Lives.

    We'll discuss more Iconic Hero details later on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post

    Is my understanding that you can apply the 'sphere points' earned in one destiny toward any other destiny within the same sphere correct?

    So I could gather all past lives just in Draconic (Arcane), Unyielding (Divine), Shadow Dancer (Martial) and Fury (Primal)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We currently expect the "return to level 20" part of Epic Reincarnation to essentially mean sacrificing your Epic class level progress (you keep Epic Destiny progress) while retaining your Heroic progress exactly as it is. There are other forms of Reincarnation for affecting Heroic advancement.


    Yes, it's true that you aren't spending points associated with an Epic Destiny. Though you don't exactly apply earned points towards Epic Destinies per se, as Epic Past Lives are not associated with any destiny, nor are the points you are earning in the Sphere.


    Yes, or whatever Epic Destiny you prefer in each sphere.
    Also the latest video mentions the subject too:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post

    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
    OLDER Dev Tracker posts
    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

    Just reposting for those not wanting to hunt thru 89 pages of the old thread:
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-amp-Iconic-TR

    Best bet, hunt the Dev Tracker
    https://www.ddo.com/en/forums/post_t...ker=devtracker

    Just for kicks, I'll quote them all from this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    I am excited to start sharing our plans for the future of the Reincarnation system! Later this year (targeting Update 20) we look forward to introducing two new TR destinations, Epic Destiny True Reincarnation and Iconic True Reincarnation. We’ve got some minor improvements involving Lesser and Greater Reincarnation in store, as well.


    We’ve seen a number of questions and discussions about TR, Iconics, and the TR / end-game gap. For the expansion pack, we are focused on ensuring that the new races are fun and playable, the content is fun and beautiful, and that the enhancement system changes launch as expected! With that, we plan to build out the TR system later in the year. The team is also taking the time to get your early feedback as the designers and engineers lock down feature plans. - How does this fit (or change) your playstyle? Read on for details, then let us know!

    A few goals for Epic Destiny TR:


    • Extend Reincarnation system to allow for 38-point builds
    • Include Epic Destinies in the TR cycle (with Epic Destiny Past Life Feats)
    • Reward you for additional investment in Epic Destinies (with starting ranks after TR)
    • Adjust the XP curve in Epic levels for multi-life TR to avoid the dramatic escalating grind
    • Include Iconics in the TR cycle (with Iconic Past Life Feats)
    • Allow you to TR into and out of Iconics (if you own Iconics)


    How does this system look in practice?

    Heroic True Reincarnation


    • Heroic TR remains primarily unchanged at level 20 or above
    • Grants a Class Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
    • Adds 2 build points up to a 36 point build
    • Benefits from the Epic Advantage if you earn Epic Destinies before TR (below)


    Epic Destiny True Reincarnation


    • Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)
    • Grants an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat
      • Feat based on active, maximized Epic Destiny

    • Karmic Bond -The active ED’s experience is now bonded through each ED True Reincarnation going forward
    • Grants a Class Past Life Feat (same as Heroic TR)
    • You must have a maximized, non-bonded ED to complete this TR
    • Adds 2 build points up to a 38 point build


    Epic Advantage


    With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)

    Iconic True Reincarnation

    That’s right; Iconics will have their own form of True Reincarnation, earning their own unique set of past-life feats. You will also be able to TR from any character into an Iconic, which begins at level 15, like normal. Epic Advantage also works on both ends, as well, transferring ED XP earned in your Iconic life, and, if you TR into an Iconic, adding XP on top of your level 15 starting XP.Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)


    • Grants an Iconic Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
    • Adds 2 build points up a 36 point build
    • Earns ranks from Epic Advantage


    What else?

    Here are some changes we’re currently exploring:


    • Reincarnation cooldown timer reduced to 3 days.
    • Reincarnation XP curves smoothed to ease penalties for multiple lives.
    • Lesser Reincarnation will allow a Heroic character to reincarnate as a Champion. Greater Reincarnation will no longer be sold, in favor of an improved Lesser Reincarnation.
    • Iconic characters will be able to Lesser Reincarnate


    We are eager to begin production on this system and appreciate the many players that are eager to see us fulfill the end game potential that the TR system presents. With these changes we are also keeping a long-term view for TR, such as how to expand the Epic Destiny system and continue to support level cap growth in the future.


    Our sincere intentions are to provide these features to you, and the DDO community at large. We invite you response to these details and thank you for your support and fortitude while we roll these changes out in support of this year’s expansion pack. The team is thrilled that DDO continues to grow, innovate, and provide a great D&D experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Thanks for all the responses so far everyone. The team will try to address the details as best we can this early in development. Here are a few more clarifications as we’re reviewing your comments:

    • Our intention is that players will be able to earn or buy Epic Destiny TR hearts of wood.
    • We’ll continue to add more epic level content so that players have a variety of paths for leveling.
    • To engage with Epic Destiny TR, you don’t have to have all destinies maxed out. Character level 28 + one maxed destiny is when you can bond your first destiny.
    • We are revisiting XP curves in not only the Heroic levels but also the Epic levels. This would make leveling (and ultimately bonding) a Destiny a faster process compared to the current pace.
    • True Reincarnation has always been about giving up your current life in exchange for increased power in your next life. We are early enough in the design work that we want to also hear ideas from players on what types of destiny feats they’d like to see in their next life in exchange for reincarnating their destinies.

    We are also making balance changes to compensate for the fact that the system goes into higher levels, and we expect that parts of the design summary will seem less harsh once these details are better understood. We’ll be reading discussion in this thread and will continue to post here with more details as we go (such as details regarding Fate Points, Completionist, and the exact effects of turning in your Epic Destiny xp on your new life).
    Introduction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Please folks, feel free to express your opinions, but fighting each other and flinging insults and name-calling is not necessary.
    Fawn went to bed and things got messy in her absence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Just to address people's passionate comments and opinions here: Keep in mind that this information is being presented to you far in advance of its implementation, and there's plenty of room to re-work the proposal in a variety of ways.
    More of the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    I moved the heading Iconic True Reincarnation into a separate line for better clarity, as it was initially formatted in error.
    The discussion turned to questioning Cordovan editing the original post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Also, just to note that the edit was made a few minutes after the post was initially made.

    Last edited by Cordovan; 06-12-2013 at 01:50 PM.
    More of the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

    We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

    Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

    1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

    2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

    Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.
    Developers return from their weekend and try to restore order.

    Please note that the second paragraph, first line is should be read like thus:
    We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation,
    and we understand your concern about not getting enough in return.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Wrong. Please, remember that this is more of a brainstorming session than it is a set in stone announcement about what's coming.

    Additionally, while we appreciate people's passionate opinions about this issue, the amount of rage in this thread needs to be lowered. Nothing is set in stone. Repeat:

    NOTHING IS SET IN STONE.

    I have frequently read on the forums that folks would like to see more back and forth with the developers in regards to hot issues undergoing development work. This is your chance to do so in a way that doesn't amount to screaming in someone's face. Keep in mind that there's a lot of discussion taking place based on your feedback, but a lot of that discussion will not be made public until it's in a state to put out there as a possibility or an idea being put forward for feedback.
    Cordovan earned his cookies this week, and Fawn noticed that the more she posted the more calm people seemed to be,
    so she flooded this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    This thread has been read quite a bit by the dev team and other folks directly, and we'll be continuing this discussion throughout the coming days and weeks. Please remember to keep things civil and not insult each other or the Turbine development team.
    Greatly encouraging news.

    This most important part is "and other folks directly" but I will not elaborate further as I have an ancient NDA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    The team has been having some further design discussions, based on feedback from this thread. It seems important to state - they recognize that several players are already very invested in Epic Destinies, this was absolutely part of the early design discussions. There are a couple Epic game-play solutions in debate that we’ll be sharing with you as well. There won’t be any flash decisions made as design changes are considered, between posts we will be spending a lot of time reviewing the many directions the system can take players, as we are a few months away from starting development.

    Thank you for sharing your feedback, reactions and ideas with us. More to come soon, and I'd expect, over the coming weeks as well.

    ~Erik
    @producerglin
    They do mean this.
    Will not comment further.
    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    Actually "several" may be overstating when we are talking about maxing out all EDs. There is a good portion of players that focus on TR, and others that run only to cap picking up a couple ED's then roll an Alt. There are also casual players that don't play every week and take a very long time to take a character through content.

    There are a lot of things to consider when we are adding to a system like TR that impacts so many play styles. I don't expect we will be able to put all the detail into dev posts, but we are trying to respond to the things that are causing the most concern.
    Note this contains a typo replace the word "overstating" with "understating".

    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Hi.
    Just wanted to touch base with you all again on this. Your feedback during this early stage of development for this system has definitely been helpful. And I’ll reiterate that because we are early in the process, we haven’t locked anything down. Now on to some additional info.

    We have multiple goals with a system like this, such as:
    • Give players the new option of TR-ing at level cap.
    • Give players more things to achieve with a high level TR type character (like epic destiny past life feats and build points).
    • Allow Iconic Hero characters to use the reincarnation system.
    • Optimize the system to help people have a good play experience. (This is a tough one, because there are different opinions on what a “good play experience” is, but this could mean giving incentives to concentrate on different Epic Destinies than were played in the previous life, for example.)
    • And as a less design-oriented but equally important goal: If changes are needed that affect players’ current investment, compensate them for the changes.

    If we can arrive at a place in a given system where we can accomplish all or many of the goals in a way that is good for the game, short term and long term, then that’s a great solution. Many systems, however, are of sufficient complexity to make this a very interesting balancing act. But even with that complexity, it’s still possible to have a good solution. It just takes some time and iteration to get there. This was one of the reasons to start this thread and see what people thought about the new system and the first design proposal.

    So, here’s some more info on a couple of options we are currently considering.

    Option 1: XP “Bank” System
    When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

    Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
    When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

    We are considering more than just these two options, but we thought you might like to know a bit about what we are currently thinking. Thanks again.
    One of the more important ones here, and strong concession.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    One goal is to fairly reimburse time invested without promoting Epic vs. Heroic based on XP/minute.

    The XP ratio hasn't been stated nor determined for reasons you make obvious. This is one of those places where it doesn't even make sense for us to worry deeply about the numbers unless it's decided the idea in general could make any sense. (We know players always love seeing the numbers, but if we went in this direction we'd likely just going to go look at and see how much XP/minute players are actually getting at different levels to figure out a ratio. 1:1 isn't special. It could be 1:3 or 3:1 or pi:e:i.)

    Another goal is allowing efficiently earning of heroic class-based past lives while playing epic content. Right now it's "wasteful" to play epic if your primary concern is past lives.

    Another goal is to not make heroic reincarnation better than Epic Destiny reincarnation, making it still often "right" to do heroic reincarnation instead of ever playing epic. We of course expect that Epic Destiny reincarnation should be better in some way(s), because it's more effort to achieve it.


    Fate Points: An example dive into some details
    We are aware of concerns with Fate Points under any proposal. They are somewhat tricksy.

    We could consider having characters "remember" how many they had. However, we don't consider it viable to let you gain more Fate Points as you regain Destiny XP (should we choose to go forward with any of proposal where any kind of XP is lost, whether from one destiny or many). That leads to infinite or at least "quite a lot" of Fate Points in the long run. That unfortunately means that if we simply blindly preserve your total but don't let you accumulate more until you would have more: The right thing to do is never TR until you have maxed out all Epic Destinies. We know that some players like to break up earning Destinies with reincarnation, and we would like to support that.

    There are some corollary changes we could consider (a system where Destiny levels still earns more Fate Points up to the normal cap, for example) that might work, but the more complicated the proposal the less likely we are to want to use it. Complexity is inherently undesirable for corollaries such as this, in terms of designing the solution, making sure it covers all the bases, making sure all players understand it (including most players who never read the forums, let alone post), and of course actually implementing it... and implementing correctly. The more complicated it is the more likely there are bugs (or even perceived bugs, or just plain confusion, which impact enjoyment of DDO regardless).

    This is just one example of topics we've discussed lately. Please don't take this as an indication that we're obviously going with something that causes Destiny XP loss because we've explored this. We're trying many other ideas on like hats, and trying to get it right from the start, exploring some issues now before we pick a single proposal or get near implementing anything. There's quite a lot of other topics brought up internally and on this thread that matter (both to us and to you!)



    This is unlikely because there's lots of other things we could do with that development time, which we suspect most players would prefer. It's still easy enough to find non-TR threads where players have plenty of other ideas we can work on. If implementing many options were quick, easy, and unlikely to generate bugs we'd consider it, but Reincarnation doesn't fall into that category, and reincarnation bugs are quite frustrating (for everyone).
    A lot there, including a reaction to Fawn's math that one could farm 40 fate points per a life later on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Great post and thoughts, clear and well presented. Thanks for taking the time to write this us.


    Some interesting ideas.
    The main post not in this thread, it is made the Player Choice Design Thread started by famous Sig.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Tomes of Fate drop in loot, from Caught in the Web and Fall of Truth.
    The discussion wandered a bit here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    That's interesting, I've always personally wondered about this. Thanks for doing it and reporting the results.
    Someone reported doing a legend life w/o xp pots or repeating quests.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Epic Destiny True Reincarnation is defined as happening at level cap, not at level 28.

    If/when the level cap is increased beyond 28, so will the requirement. Yes, this means it's potentially quicker or easier if you do it sooner.

    That's our current thinking. This doesn't necessarily mean it will go on and on and on to level 999, but the important bit is that it's not tied to level 28.
    The discussion lead to level cap questions after Fawn insisted several times that Epic Destinies will increase to 10 and the level cap will go to 30.

    Someone else remarked that First Edition Rules allowed 99 levels for Humans, and an adventure pack actually used those levels.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chyghSQajgE

    Community Update discuses it as well.

    Also DDO Chronicle Issues 48 and 49 encourages people to read and post here.


    Just recently three more posts in another thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by ProducerRowan View Post
    We're putting time into the Epic TR design - for obvious reasons, it's important to you.

    Now that Shadowfell Conspiracy has hit Code Freeze (last night), the team is digging into important Patch 1 items like the Warpriest Enhancements tree and picking up Epic TR design again.

    I expect we'll have an update for you on Epic TR in the next 3-4 weeks, for feedback before we dig deeply into implementation.
    In reply to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    LOL . . . like 80 pages of torches and pitchforks wasn't enough feedback to let you know how well a blanking of ED XP would go over?
    Quote Originally Posted by ProducerRowan View Post
    Nope, please burn the castle down.

    Seriously speaking, our next version will include that feedback.
    Lastly this from the same thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by ProducerRowan View Post
    I'm not going to disavow the previous design for a few reasons, primarily because I don't want to constrain the freedom of our designers. I want to hear the idea first (I've heard a lot of ideas, I want to get to the one we bring back to you).

    Nothing is built, everything is on paper. We definitely got the message that people value their ED progression and don't want to see it wiped. We also want to make TR a tradeoff for players (for Heroic it's character levels for new Feats). I expect Fate Points will play into this in some way. Bear with us a little longer, the goal is to make it a fun system you want to be involved in.

  6. #1766
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    Default Gaming Philosophy 101

    The main reason I gathered as to why the TR system is being reworked...

    It was stated that:

    Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play.
    To be more precise:

    Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play [until all heroic benefits have been achieved].

    We can imagine a new system where players can TR at level 10. If such a system were to exist this would create a vacuum of activity between levels 10 and 20 for a time, until all the lvl 10 TR benefits have been achieved.

    To preserve players' efforts and create incentive to continue play to higher levels, any new system should provide a way to achieve the same benefits either way (either by returning to lower levels, or by continuing to higher levels). This would give players the choice to decide whether they would like to play content they are familiar with, or move on to new content. This choice will give players a powerful incentive to keep playing because it will both fulfill the need to make a choice and reward players regardless of the choice they make.

  7. #1767
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ribbs View Post
    To be more precise:

    Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play [until all heroic benefits have been achieved].

    .
    Not only that but, no new Raids and random loot gen making a lot of raid gear obsolete created an environment where many players had no reason to stay at cap

  8. #1768
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    Default

    This entire thread/idea is really just a monster of their own design. When I started playing the cap was level 20 and that was it, there was no 'TR', no 'Epic'. The cap was lower prior to my time.

    Someone came up with the idea of TR (with all the other reincarnations as a means of respec) taking you from 20 to 1 with some bonuses. That's all well and good, until someone else came along and decided to continue the first line of progression (IE: raise level cap) increasing the cap to 25 along with a parallel progression called ED. This effectively created a massive divide between 1 to 20 and 20+ with ED's caught in the cross fire with the later not benefiting the former.

    What happens with the next level cap raise at say Level 32? It is doubtful future sustainability was even looked at. What about Level 40 5 years from now? Would the game seriously be divided as 1 to 20 TRs and 1 to 40? What about a 3rd parallel progression in the mix?

    This game is bolt on after bolt on.

  9. #1769
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zooble View Post
    This entire thread/idea is really just a monster of their own design. When I started playing the cap was level 20 and that was it, there was no 'TR', no 'Epic'. The cap was lower prior to my time.

    Someone came up with the idea of TR (with all the other reincarnations as a means of respec) taking you from 20 to 1 with some bonuses. That's all well and good, until someone else came along and decided to continue the first line of progression (IE: raise level cap) increasing the cap to 25 along with a parallel progression called ED. This effectively created a massive divide between 1 to 20 and 20+ with ED's caught in the cross fire with the later not benefiting the former.

    What happens with the next level cap raise at say Level 32? It is doubtful future sustainability was even looked at. What about Level 40 5 years from now? Would the game seriously be divided as 1 to 20 TRs and 1 to 40? What about a 3rd parallel progression in the mix?

    This game is bolt on after bolt on.
    The next cap raise is to 30, and they plan to keep that cap in place for all foreseeable future.

  10. #1770

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakHar View Post
    The next cap raise is to 30, and they plan to keep that cap in place for all foreseeable future.
    The real issue is that Iconics and Epic TR can only happen at level 30. So if you want to get those skills/buffs get them now before you have 2 more levels (roughly 3 million xp) to grind to get the same rewards.

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