Just reposting for those not wanting to hunt thru 88 pages:

Best bet, hunt the Dev Tracker

Just for kicks, I'll quote them all from this thread:

Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
I am excited to start sharing our plans for the future of the Reincarnation system! Later this year (targeting Update 20) we look forward to introducing two new TR destinations, Epic Destiny True Reincarnation and Iconic True Reincarnation. We’ve got some minor improvements involving Lesser and Greater Reincarnation in store, as well.

We’ve seen a number of questions and discussions about TR, Iconics, and the TR / end-game gap. For the expansion pack, we are focused on ensuring that the new races are fun and playable, the content is fun and beautiful, and that the enhancement system changes launch as expected! With that, we plan to build out the TR system later in the year. The team is also taking the time to get your early feedback as the designers and engineers lock down feature plans. - How does this fit (or change) your playstyle? Read on for details, then let us know!

A few goals for Epic Destiny TR:

  • Extend Reincarnation system to allow for 38-point builds
  • Include Epic Destinies in the TR cycle (with Epic Destiny Past Life Feats)
  • Reward you for additional investment in Epic Destinies (with starting ranks after TR)
  • Adjust the XP curve in Epic levels for multi-life TR to avoid the dramatic escalating grind
  • Include Iconics in the TR cycle (with Iconic Past Life Feats)
  • Allow you to TR into and out of Iconics (if you own Iconics)

How does this system look in practice?

Heroic True Reincarnation

  • Heroic TR remains primarily unchanged at level 20 or above
  • Grants a Class Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
  • Adds 2 build points up to a 36 point build
  • Benefits from the Epic Advantage if you earn Epic Destinies before TR (below)

Epic Destiny True Reincarnation

  • Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)
  • Grants an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat
    • Feat based on active, maximized Epic Destiny

  • Karmic Bond -The active ED’s experience is now bonded through each ED True Reincarnation going forward
  • Grants a Class Past Life Feat (same as Heroic TR)
  • You must have a maximized, non-bonded ED to complete this TR
  • Adds 2 build points up to a 38 point build

Epic Advantage

With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)

Iconic True Reincarnation

That’s right; Iconics will have their own form of True Reincarnation, earning their own unique set of past-life feats. You will also be able to TR from any character into an Iconic, which begins at level 15, like normal. Epic Advantage also works on both ends, as well, transferring ED XP earned in your Iconic life, and, if you TR into an Iconic, adding XP on top of your level 15 starting XP.Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)

  • Grants an Iconic Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
  • Adds 2 build points up a 36 point build
  • Earns ranks from Epic Advantage

What else?

Here are some changes we’re currently exploring:

  • Reincarnation cooldown timer reduced to 3 days.
  • Reincarnation XP curves smoothed to ease penalties for multiple lives.
  • Lesser Reincarnation will allow a Heroic character to reincarnate as a Champion. Greater Reincarnation will no longer be sold, in favor of an improved Lesser Reincarnation.
  • Iconic characters will be able to Lesser Reincarnate

We are eager to begin production on this system and appreciate the many players that are eager to see us fulfill the end game potential that the TR system presents. With these changes we are also keeping a long-term view for TR, such as how to expand the Epic Destiny system and continue to support level cap growth in the future.

Our sincere intentions are to provide these features to you, and the DDO community at large. We invite you response to these details and thank you for your support and fortitude while we roll these changes out in support of this year’s expansion pack. The team is thrilled that DDO continues to grow, innovate, and provide a great D&D experience.
Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
Thanks for all the responses so far everyone. The team will try to address the details as best we can this early in development. Here are a few more clarifications as we’re reviewing your comments:

• Our intention is that players will be able to earn or buy Epic Destiny TR hearts of wood.
• We’ll continue to add more epic level content so that players have a variety of paths for leveling.
• To engage with Epic Destiny TR, you don’t have to have all destinies maxed out. Character level 28 + one maxed destiny is when you can bond your first destiny.
• We are revisiting XP curves in not only the Heroic levels but also the Epic levels. This would make leveling (and ultimately bonding) a Destiny a faster process compared to the current pace.
• True Reincarnation has always been about giving up your current life in exchange for increased power in your next life. We are early enough in the design work that we want to also hear ideas from players on what types of destiny feats they’d like to see in their next life in exchange for reincarnating their destinies.

We are also making balance changes to compensate for the fact that the system goes into higher levels, and we expect that parts of the design summary will seem less harsh once these details are better understood. We’ll be reading discussion in this thread and will continue to post here with more details as we go (such as details regarding Fate Points, Completionist, and the exact effects of turning in your Epic Destiny xp on your new life).
Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
Please folks, feel free to express your opinions, but fighting each other and flinging insults and name-calling is not necessary.
Fawn went to bed and things got messy in her absence.
Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
Just to address people's passionate comments and opinions here: Keep in mind that this information is being presented to you far in advance of its implementation, and there's plenty of room to re-work the proposal in a variety of ways.
More of the same.
Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
I moved the heading Iconic True Reincarnation into a separate line for better clarity, as it was initially formatted in error.
The discussion turned to questioning Cordovan editing the original post.
Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
Also, just to note that the edit was made a few minutes after the post was initially made.

Last edited by Cordovan; 06-12-2013 at 01:50 PM.
More of the same.
Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.
Developers return from their weekend and try to restore order.

Please note that the second paragraph, first line is should be read like thus:
We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation,
and we understand your concern about not getting enough in return.
Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
Wrong. Please, remember that this is more of a brainstorming session than it is a set in stone announcement about what's coming.

Additionally, while we appreciate people's passionate opinions about this issue, the amount of rage in this thread needs to be lowered. Nothing is set in stone. Repeat:


I have frequently read on the forums that folks would like to see more back and forth with the developers in regards to hot issues undergoing development work. This is your chance to do so in a way that doesn't amount to screaming in someone's face. Keep in mind that there's a lot of discussion taking place based on your feedback, but a lot of that discussion will not be made public until it's in a state to put out there as a possibility or an idea being put forward for feedback.
Cordovan earned his cookies this week, and Fawn noticed that the more she posted the more calm people seemed to be,
so she flooded this thread.
Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
This thread has been read quite a bit by the dev team and other folks directly, and we'll be continuing this discussion throughout the coming days and weeks. Please remember to keep things civil and not insult each other or the Turbine development team.
Greatly encouraging news.

This most important part is "and other folks directly" but I will not elaborate further as I have an ancient NDA.
Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
The team has been having some further design discussions, based on feedback from this thread. It seems important to state - they recognize that several players are already very invested in Epic Destinies, this was absolutely part of the early design discussions. There are a couple Epic game-play solutions in debate that we’ll be sharing with you as well. There won’t be any flash decisions made as design changes are considered, between posts we will be spending a lot of time reviewing the many directions the system can take players, as we are a few months away from starting development.

Thank you for sharing your feedback, reactions and ideas with us. More to come soon, and I'd expect, over the coming weeks as well.

They do mean this.
Will not comment further.
Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
Actually "several" may be overstating when we are talking about maxing out all EDs. There is a good portion of players that focus on TR, and others that run only to cap picking up a couple ED's then roll an Alt. There are also casual players that don't play every week and take a very long time to take a character through content.

There are a lot of things to consider when we are adding to a system like TR that impacts so many play styles. I don't expect we will be able to put all the detail into dev posts, but we are trying to respond to the things that are causing the most concern.
Note this contains a typo replace the word "overstating" with "understating".

Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
Just wanted to touch base with you all again on this. Your feedback during this early stage of development for this system has definitely been helpful. And I’ll reiterate that because we are early in the process, we haven’t locked anything down. Now on to some additional info.

We have multiple goals with a system like this, such as:
• Give players the new option of TR-ing at level cap.
• Give players more things to achieve with a high level TR type character (like epic destiny past life feats and build points).
• Allow Iconic Hero characters to use the reincarnation system.
• Optimize the system to help people have a good play experience. (This is a tough one, because there are different opinions on what a “good play experience” is, but this could mean giving incentives to concentrate on different Epic Destinies than were played in the previous life, for example.)
• And as a less design-oriented but equally important goal: If changes are needed that affect players’ current investment, compensate them for the changes.

If we can arrive at a place in a given system where we can accomplish all or many of the goals in a way that is good for the game, short term and long term, then that’s a great solution. Many systems, however, are of sufficient complexity to make this a very interesting balancing act. But even with that complexity, it’s still possible to have a good solution. It just takes some time and iteration to get there. This was one of the reasons to start this thread and see what people thought about the new system and the first design proposal.

So, here’s some more info on a couple of options we are currently considering.

Option 1: XP “Bank” System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

We are considering more than just these two options, but we thought you might like to know a bit about what we are currently thinking. Thanks again.
One of the more important ones here, and strong concession.

Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
One goal is to fairly reimburse time invested without promoting Epic vs. Heroic based on XP/minute.

The XP ratio hasn't been stated nor determined for reasons you make obvious. This is one of those places where it doesn't even make sense for us to worry deeply about the numbers unless it's decided the idea in general could make any sense. (We know players always love seeing the numbers, but if we went in this direction we'd likely just going to go look at and see how much XP/minute players are actually getting at different levels to figure out a ratio. 1:1 isn't special. It could be 1:3 or 3:1 or pi:e:i.)

Another goal is allowing efficiently earning of heroic class-based past lives while playing epic content. Right now it's "wasteful" to play epic if your primary concern is past lives.

Another goal is to not make heroic reincarnation better than Epic Destiny reincarnation, making it still often "right" to do heroic reincarnation instead of ever playing epic. We of course expect that Epic Destiny reincarnation should be better in some way(s), because it's more effort to achieve it.

Fate Points: An example dive into some details
We are aware of concerns with Fate Points under any proposal. They are somewhat tricksy.

We could consider having characters "remember" how many they had. However, we don't consider it viable to let you gain more Fate Points as you regain Destiny XP (should we choose to go forward with any of proposal where any kind of XP is lost, whether from one destiny or many). That leads to infinite or at least "quite a lot" of Fate Points in the long run. That unfortunately means that if we simply blindly preserve your total but don't let you accumulate more until you would have more: The right thing to do is never TR until you have maxed out all Epic Destinies. We know that some players like to break up earning Destinies with reincarnation, and we would like to support that.

There are some corollary changes we could consider (a system where Destiny levels still earns more Fate Points up to the normal cap, for example) that might work, but the more complicated the proposal the less likely we are to want to use it. Complexity is inherently undesirable for corollaries such as this, in terms of designing the solution, making sure it covers all the bases, making sure all players understand it (including most players who never read the forums, let alone post), and of course actually implementing it... and implementing correctly. The more complicated it is the more likely there are bugs (or even perceived bugs, or just plain confusion, which impact enjoyment of DDO regardless).

This is just one example of topics we've discussed lately. Please don't take this as an indication that we're obviously going with something that causes Destiny XP loss because we've explored this. We're trying many other ideas on like hats, and trying to get it right from the start, exploring some issues now before we pick a single proposal or get near implementing anything. There's quite a lot of other topics brought up internally and on this thread that matter (both to us and to you!)

This is unlikely because there's lots of other things we could do with that development time, which we suspect most players would prefer. It's still easy enough to find non-TR threads where players have plenty of other ideas we can work on. If implementing many options were quick, easy, and unlikely to generate bugs we'd consider it, but Reincarnation doesn't fall into that category, and reincarnation bugs are quite frustrating (for everyone).
A lot there, including a reaction to Fawn's math that one could farm 40 fate points per a life later on.
Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
Great post and thoughts, clear and well presented. Thanks for taking the time to write this us.

Some interesting ideas.
The main post not in this thread, it is made the Player Choice Design Thread started by famous Sig.

Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
Tomes of Fate drop in loot, from Caught in the Web and Fall of Truth.
The discussion wandered a bit here.

Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
That's interesting, I've always personally wondered about this. Thanks for doing it and reporting the results.
Someone reported doing a legend life w/o xp pots or repeating quests.

Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
Epic Destiny True Reincarnation is defined as happening at level cap, not at level 28.

If/when the level cap is increased beyond 28, so will the requirement. Yes, this means it's potentially quicker or easier if you do it sooner.

That's our current thinking. This doesn't necessarily mean it will go on and on and on to level 999, but the important bit is that it's not tied to level 28.
The discussion lead to level cap questions after Fawn insisted several times that Epic Destinies will increase to 10 and the level cap will go to 30.

Someone else remarked that First Edition Rules allowed 99 levels for Humans, and an adventure pack actually used those levels.


Community Update discuses it as well.

Also DDO Chronicle Issues 48 and 49 encourages people to read and post here.

Just recently three more posts in another thread:

Quote Originally Posted by ProducerRowan View Post
We're putting time into the Epic TR design - for obvious reasons, it's important to you.

Now that Shadowfell Conspiracy has hit Code Freeze (last night), the team is digging into important Patch 1 items like the Warpriest Enhancements tree and picking up Epic TR design again.

I expect we'll have an update for you on Epic TR in the next 3-4 weeks, for feedback before we dig deeply into implementation.
In reply to this:

Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
LOL . . . like 80 pages of torches and pitchforks wasn't enough feedback to let you know how well a blanking of ED XP would go over?
Quote Originally Posted by ProducerRowan View Post
Nope, please burn the castle down.

Seriously speaking, our next version will include that feedback.
Lastly this from the same thread:

Quote Originally Posted by ProducerRowan View Post
I'm not going to disavow the previous design for a few reasons, primarily because I don't want to constrain the freedom of our designers. I want to hear the idea first (I've heard a lot of ideas, I want to get to the one we bring back to you).

Nothing is built, everything is on paper. We definitely got the message that people value their ED progression and don't want to see it wiped. We also want to make TR a tradeoff for players (for Heroic it's character levels for new Feats). I expect Fate Points will play into this in some way. Bear with us a little longer, the goal is to make it a fun system you want to be involved in.