Both of these ideas make differing amounts of past lives barriers to playing together, at least in any meaningful way. I think they would be best off keeping TRing more or less something one does for it's own sake, than to make it greatly game changing. That, and either of those ideas would make the game old pretty quick once god mode sets in.In order to create an incentive for people to epic TR, I suggest letting players perm buyable feats upon epic TR. This would also solve 2 other problems with TRing. Those problems are that currently, once you've got 3 past life feats under your belt for each class you gain no further bonus from additional TRs and feats are to tight on most builds to allow you to fit in your buyable past life feats. If you allow individuals to "perm" non-epic feats during TRing, really dedicated players will be rewarded by having feats become less and less tight on their builds. As for concerns that this could become overpowered, well yeah. If someone wants to do 39 epic TRs it would make sense that they would be much much more powerful than someone who hasn't epic TR'd yet (or who has only done 3 TRs.)
Another idea, shamelessly stolen from a guildie of mine, would be to make each epic TR reduce the ML of your items by 1 or 2. If someone does 10-20 epic TRs in a row they should be allowed to use ML 20 items at level 1 if only for the comedy and drama it would create in the forum. Also, it would facilitate further TRs by that person because completely destroying content that once, many lives ago, was hard is insanely fun.
Ya know, or you can just add a bunch of pointless grind to the game without giving the players shinies that are actually of value to general gameplay.
The simplest solution is the best. And the simplest solution is:
-- heroic tr as present
-- epic destinies not reset upon tr
-- epic tr resets generic epic level to 20 upon reaching cap (lvl 28?)
-- you can epic tr again once you have reached cap again and some minimum days have passed
Bottom line is you will need "z" xp to get from lvl 20 to 28. Turbine just needs to ensure that "z" is something reasonable which can't be reached in a couple of hours but doesn't take years either. I don't see why the "z" value should change if the cap is increased to lvl 30 or beyond. That's punitive to players down the road and makes current players say "let's work on our epic tr's right now" (even though maybe they'd rather be doing something else...why "force" players to do something "unfun" if you don't have to?).
Past life epic feat should come from any of the epic destinies you have capped when you epic tr. Whether that particular destiny (and only that one) should be reset to zero or not is a minor discussion point. Fate points don't need to be reset as they are based on your destinies which you would keep.
How is that not the simplest solution? How is that in any way overpowered (assuming they don't make the epic past life feats ridiculously overpowered)? Players can heroic tr, or epic tr, or work on destinies according to what their own priorities are and what they actually enjoy doing. They don't have to worry about the most efficient path because there is no "most-efficient way" or "optimal order" to approach the game. Increased level cap down the road won't be a factor. No one gets mad because they have to reset all their epic destinies if they want to epic tr. No one gets mad that they have a 4th life wizard (3 wiz PL feats) and they are being forced to return to level 0 (ie heroic) when they epic tr but they won't get any further benefit of another wizard heroic PL since they already have the maximum 3.
Under my format, Turbine could even add an additional tier to the epic destinies without worrying about inducing a rage hysteria since if destiny xp doesn't reset you don't ever lose progress you make in a bunch of destinies (and presumable additional tiers would come with additional benefits and also increase overall fate points).
I'm really not understanding all the counterproposals, which although preferable to Turbine's ideas always seem to keep (or even add) some level of complexity which just isn't needed. To me it's like all the arguments against having a regular reincarnation that includes alignment and race and sex and as many class levels as you like. Apparently, one type of regular reincarnation that lets you change absolutely everything would be horribly op, yet I've never read a reasonable explanation of why that would be so.
Annikka (Sorc), Dannikka (F), Jannikka (Rgr)
Tamikka (Bard), Famikka (Rgr)
Bellynda (Cl), Mellynda (M)
Just reposting for those not wanting to hunt thru 85 pages:
Best bet, hunt the Dev Tracker
Just for kicks, I'll quote them all from this thread:
Please note that the second paragraph, first line is should be read like thus:
We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation,
and we understand your concern about not getting enough in return.
so she flooded this thread.
This most important part is "and other folks directly" but I will not elaborate further as I have an ancient NDA.
Will not comment further.
Someone else remarked that First Edition Rules allowed 99 levels for Humans, and an adventure pack actually used those levels.
Community Update discuses it as well.
Also DDO Chronicle Issues 48 and 49 encourages people to read and post here.
Why is there a need to erase ED xp at all under the epic TR system? There is already a metric for xp between 20 and level cap: character xp. Going from 20->25 takes more xp than going from 0->5 in a destiny so by reaching 25 you've earned a capped destiny's worth of xp. Under the current proposal you dont intend us to retag a bound destiny a 2nd time, so that already encourages us to level in a new destiny when we do the 20 -> cap xp run.
If the requirements were:
Heroic TR: lvl 20+
Epic TR: lvl capped + untagged capped destiny
And the mechanic was to erase character xp, preserving all destiny xp, then I think that would cover most people's objections. For those people with all their destinies capped already, they would be losing out on the fact that they could have levelled their epic TR and destiny xp at the same time, but they would be gaining the advantage of being able to level in their most appropriate destiny and already fully functional.
Or: why not erase the destiny xp of the one capped one we're chosing to gain the benefit from? That allows you the option of introducing a bonus for TRing a specific destiny multiple times at a future date.
I dont think anyone objects to repeating the xp grind from 20 -> level cap. The issue is the loss of what is potentially 10+ million destiny xp that we were lead to believe from the MOTU beta discussions on TRing and its interaction with destiny xp would be permanantly locked into the character.
Ed TR should only reset the experince of the Ed you are getting the past life and should take to lv 20 not 1, because people who already have heroic past lifes triple stacked will have taht work wasted if they want to get epic past lifes.
Has anyone considered the epic tr hearts may only be available by store purchase or by obtaining things in game which can only be acquired in content in the new expansion? Meaning doing it for free will not be possible. Just a thought i had.
This is the thread that never ends.
It just goes on and on, my friends.
Some people starting posting here,
not knowing what it was.
And they will keep on posting here
forever just because...
There have been a lot of good ideas in this thread (and some other stuff :@). I just hope the devs make some friendly adjustments and avoid proving the doomsayers right.
IIrc, iconic PL's stack x3, but ED PL's do not stack. This should assuage completionist concerns.
The 400kg gorilla in the room is what happens to all the surplus ED XP upon a TR, and how the devs are going to address it.
Are we gaining 'Epic Advantage' per ED that is bonded from EDTRs?Epic Advantage
With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)
Will the Iconics force completionists to run 3 or more TRs into the iconics to keep their PLFs as a Bladeforged is still a Paladin regardless of the way it is cut?Iconic True Reincarnation
That’s right; Iconics will have their own form of True Reincarnation, earning their own unique set of past-life feats. You will also be able to TR from any character into an Iconic, which begins at level 15, like normal. Epic Advantage also works on both ends, as well, transferring ED XP earned in your Iconic life, and, if you TR into an Iconic, adding XP on top of your level 15 starting XP.Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)
Will the Iconics be granting their class specific bound armor based on the fact you are TRing into them? Or will we at least have the Iconic armor made BTA so we can enjoy the unique look of the iconics on our other classes as we cycle through the TRs?
Very cut and dried - I had actually expected Iconics to start at first level and have the ranks earned from epic advantage as it will be for other classes. Not entirely impressed that they will get such an advantage - primarily because it will cause a lot of complaining from others.
- Grants an Iconic Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
- Adds 2 build points up a 36 point build
- Earns ranks from Epic Advantage
Looks like a good improvement. Not entirely sure how it'll pan out with the xp curves being changed, but not too worried either.
- Reincarnation cooldown timer reduced to 3 days.
- Reincarnation XP curves smoothed to ease penalties for multiple lives.
- Lesser Reincarnation will allow a Heroic character to reincarnate as a Champion. Greater Reincarnation will no longer be sold, in favor of an improved Lesser Reincarnation.
- Iconic characters will be able to Lesser Reincarnate
I have a few suggestions. First, I think the way EDs reset with TRs need changed. Here are my suggestions.
1. Heroic TR, allows for reset of non-bonded ED if you chose the option to take Epic
Advantage. Epic Advantage will be an option given to the TR on an airship - much as we have the boat for level 4 and level 7 veteran status players. The option will have a warning in red letters telling the individual taking epic advantage that they will lose their ED levels if they are not bonded. IE:
*I would like to True Reincarnate without taking epic advantage. I understand that this will start me off at level 1, and all of my ED experience will remain intact, but I will not be able to access my epic destinies until I reach level 20.
*I would like to True Reincarnate and take epic advantage. I understand that the experience I have earned in any epic destiny that is not bonded through Karmic Bond will be reset, I also understand I will gain ranks based on how many levels I earned in my epic destinies.
2. EDTR will land you on an airship for the TR, much as with LR and GLR options currently do. The individual taking the TR will be given two options. With the understanding that as they are taking an EDTR they will have all of their EDs that are not bonded reset to 0.
*I would like to take a bonded EDTR to level 1 and take my current class past life feat AND my current EDPLF.
-If this option is taken, the option to take Epic Advantage will be given as well.
*I would like to take a bonded EDTR to level 20, I understand that I will NOT gain my current class past life feat AND my EDs that are not bonded be reset to 0. I further understand that I will not be eligible for Epic Advantage this life as I will be starting from level 20. I also understand that my existing heroic feats will not be reset if I chose to begin at level 20 instead of level 1.
These suggestions allow two things. First, it gives you the choice to use Epic Advantage, or not. It allows the current system that is being planned to be an option for those that are ok with it.
Second, it gives those that are multi-life completionists and do NOT want to start off again at level 1, or any lower level even if they gain levels based on their EDs the option to do so.
I believe giving players an option on how they take their future TRs will prevent some issues, and may both allow you to expand on existing TRs and benefits from TRs, AND allow you to keep those players that you'd otherwise lose over the changes in EDs being a bit harsh for them.
The big issue is, I do not want to be 'punished' for having TRed in the past, but only just starting into the EDTRs. I also do not want to see multi-life completionists punished for having 3x in each class PLF but now have to go through each life again 11x(If they don't take the 3x in the iconics which would land them at 9 'new' lives for PLFs, leaving them still needing 2 'classic' classes as TRs).
Those above me made a very good point. We were told the ED levels/xp would not be hit by TRs. I believe that ONLY the EDs we bind when we TR to buff that single ED should lose any xp at all and be reset to allow for the EDTR. Keep the idea to let us chose level 20 or level 1 with or without Epic Advantage please. Yes it means my idea needs a little tweaking, but...
Once you told us that we will not lose exp from TRs on epic destinies you made it so when/if you try to wipe all of our EDs in a TR, you lied to us. That will break more of whatever trust is left in this company. Please do not do that.
Last edited by Manatha; 07-21-2013 at 08:58 PM. Reason: Spacing two options so the suggestion may be clearer
Khyber Character: Main; Manathayria; Rogue making a circuit of paladin and other lives - yes I heal, but I expect a cookie when you don't die.
Now let me share some thoughts about Epic TR again.
PLEASE make it this way:
1. Don't change Heroic TR at all. It's working, I like it.
That also means:
- don't reduce xp needed to reach lvl 20, i.e. don't change it (we already have easy button - XP stones, which is a game breaker already IMO, there is no need for more easy buttons)
- EDs XP is not lost during Heroic TR
(I've been told that EDs XP won't be wiped during Heroic TR. So I've searched Dev Tracker for 3 hours and couldn't find a dev confirmation about that. Can anyone give a link if there is one?)
2. Epic TR should be this way:
- you have to be capped (i.e. lvl 28) and have at least one ED capped
- all earned EDs xp stays except for the one chosen, which has to be capped
- you gain a bonus from Epic past life from the chosen ED (some past life feat, more ED points to spend in that ED, or whatever the bonus)
- after ETR (Epic TR) you become lvl 1 (and finally can change gender btw)
- if you have 3 x Wiz past lives already and Epic TRed into Wiz then you can choose to be lvl 10 Wiz (yes, you'll still need to work other levels, you can choose any classes for other lvls, but your main class will stay Wiz), actually this idea could be applied to Heroic TR too (could be useful for those who want to rebuild his character and can't afford LR), and use XP stone if want it to be faster (of course, Wiz was just an example here)
3. Please don't transfer EDs xp to Heroic xp. I want to play heroic lvls! I'm tired of playing only epics for years, it's really boring (the only reason why I didn't TR my main toon is that he is over geared with the best items in the game and don't have bank space even to consider TRing, ironically, I can TR only new rolled toons, which is not fun). Another thing is that heroic lvls lack of players to group with. Think about new players (even BB runs is better than nothing).
4. Since past lives from Epic TR will give non weaker bonuses than Heroic TR then IMO:
- XP needed for Epic lvls and ED lvls should be increased similarly as for Heroic TR (but stay the same after 3rd epic life as it is for Heroic TR)
- you still keep all earned EDs XP (except for the chosen one, which is 0 xp after ETR), but might lose EDs lvls (and thus might lose some fate points too, also spheres might not be connected)
5. The rule for Fate points stay the same as it is now (i.e. the sum of EDs lvls divided by 3). Of course, tomes stay after TR or Epic TR.
6. To avoid some possible bugs all EDs points and Fate points should be reset upon Epic TR (since you might lose ED points on ETR and it's not clear what to do with already spent points, i.e. which of them to remove).
You have lvl 28 character who is lvl 20 Wiz. He has 2 Wiz past lives. He has these EDs:
1,500,000 xp in Magister (lvl 5)
1,080,000 xp in Fatesinger (lvl 4)
720,000 xp in Shadowdancer (lvl 3)
1,080,000 xp in Legendary Dreadnought (lvl 4)
1,980,000 xp in Shiradi Champion (lvl 5)
You have 5+4+3+4+5=21 EDs lvls, so you have 21/3 = 7 fate points.
The only capped ED is Shiradi, so upon Epic TR you can choose only this ED.
In Heroic TR you need approximately 65% more xp on TR1 and +130% xp on TR2, TR3, ... (it's different for individual lvls, but +65% and +130% are true for lvl 20).
So, let's say EDs XP abides some similar rule, for example, you need 50% more xp on ETR1, and +100% XP on ETR2 (xp need for ETR3, ETR4 ... stay the same as for ETR2 though).
(let's say multipliers 1.5 and 2.0 are the same for ED cap and lvl 28 cap)
ED xp table is this atm:
lvl 1 = 180,000 xp
lvl 2 = 420,000 xp
lvl 3 = 720,000 xp
lvl 4 = 1,080,000 xp
lvl 5 = 1,500,000 xp
cap = 1,980,000 xp
For ETR1 it would be (assuming +50% for each lvl, just to show the idea, the better way would be using similar formula to Heroic lvls):
lvl 1 = 270,000 xp
lvl 2 = 630,000 xp
lvl 3 = 1,080,000 xp
lvl 4 = 1,620,000 xp
lvl 5 = 2,250,000 xp
cap = 2,970,000 xp
For ETR2+ it would be (assuming +100% for each lvl):
lvl 1 = 360,000 xp
lvl 2 = 840,000 xp
lvl 3 = 1,440,000 xp
lvl 4 = 2,160,000 xp
lvl 5 = 3,000,000 xp
cap = 3,960,000 xp
So, after you undergo ETR1 you:
- can choose any class, but let's say you choose Wiz
- you become lvl 1 Wiz (you can't choose to be lvl 10 Wiz, because you only have 2 Wiz past lives atm)
- for lvl 20 you need 4,378,500 heroic xp (since you are TR2+)
- for lvl 28 you need 4,500,000 epic xp (as ETR1, which is 3,000,000 * 1.5)
Your current ED is the chosen one, i.e. Shiradi, but lvl 0 atm.
All EDs looks like this now:
1,500,000 xp in Magister (lvl 3 instead of lvl 5)
1,080,000 xp in Fatesinger (lvl 3 instead of lvl 4)
720,000 xp in Shadowdancer (lvl 2 instead of lvl 3)
1,080,000 xp in Legendary Dreadnought (lvl 3 instead of lvl 4)
0 xp in Shiradi Champion (lvl 0 instead of lvl 5)
Now you have 3+3+2+3+0=11 EDs lvls, so you have 11/3 = 3.66 = 3 fate points.
Since your current ED is Shiradi and it doesn't have lvl 4 and Legendary Dreadnought is no longer lvl 4 then you are not connected to other spheres yet.
Note that this way you won't lose any EDs xp at all (except for Shiradi).
For simplicity I've used +50% xp increase for each lvls, but that's not how xp is increased for Heroic lvls (where is: +5% for lvl 1, +8.75% for lvl 2 , etc.). I mean that you would lose a lot less fate points if the similar formula from Heroic lvls would be applied.
So, yes, it's not an answer I was looking for (really appreciate for trying though).
The only answer I've found so far that partially answers my question is this:
Reconfirming the 2 most important points to me:
1. Do not reset destiny xp
2. Do not force a combined heroic/epic tr. Allow us to only go back to level 20 if that is our preference.
Annikka (Sorc), Dannikka (F), Jannikka (Rgr)
Tamikka (Bard), Famikka (Rgr)
Bellynda (Cl), Mellynda (M)
Personally, I only tr my characters to a third life (to get the stat increase) and that's it. As you point out, you don't have to "farm" quests like shadow crypt in a heroic tr. And I don't. I run most quests once or twice. And it's ok to do once, or twice, but all the way to completionist? No thanks, not for me. It's still a "grind" since I prefer to play at cap.
Don't get me wrong. The current heroic tr system is somewhat fair (almost). I'm not forced to tr any more than I choose. It's fair provided the past-life bonuses are marginal and don't make it seem "mandatory" to go for completionist. (Something like the +2 spell pen for wiz half-lives is an example of something outside of that since 3 wiz past-lives versus no past-lives seems like too much of a difference.) I can give you the plus 2 stat completionist bonuses and other small bonuses in things like hp. You are full value for those benefits, but I can still go into an Epic Elite quest on my 2-time tr and contribute. So I don't have to "grind" any more than I decide to.
But where I have a problem is with Turbine's new proposal for epic tr. Why force everyone to go back to level 0? Maybe I want an epic past-life bonus and I'm ok with redoing level 20-28, but can't stand the thought of heroic levels. Why force me to redo that "grind". (I'm not making it a "grind" by farming certain quests, to me it's a grind no matter what.) Why reset destiny xp to 0? I might be ok with redoing levels 20-28 in a fun ED, but not OK with spending time in a bunch of "unfun" EDs. That feels "grindy" to me.
Annikka (Sorc), Dannikka (F), Jannikka (Rgr)
Tamikka (Bard), Famikka (Rgr)
Bellynda (Cl), Mellynda (M)
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