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  1. #1641

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    When Fawn casually brings up THE thread and witnesses 2 or 3 quick negative reactions,
    then Fawn is not happy...

  2. #1642

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    I am having trouble tracking it down,
    but somewhere a Dev, I forget which one
    said something like: "Tell us now what you want
    to see for past life feats (including ETR),
    enhancement beta, new approaches for ETR,
    Iconic TR, etc.."

    Whatever, they can listen anyway...

    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    Greetings

    In my opinion the coming epic past life benefits should be linked fairly closely to the Epic Destiny the are associated with - yet offer something minor outside the destiny as well.

    For Exalted Angle I suggest the following
    - make SP base depend on the highest of Wis and Cha for classes with divine spells.
    - Make DC checks for Divine spells depend on the highest of Wis and Cha
    - lower the reuse time of SLA in Exacted Angle by 25% (Avenging Light etc)
    - give +30 devotion and light spell power (stacks with everything else)

    Note that this does not raise the max DC or max Spell Pen nor are any of the SLA in EA terribly powerful so the effects are more of a consolidation and minor increase than an addition of immense power. I thus believe this to be powerful but not overpowering.

    Please post comments and suggestions for other destinies while keeping within the powerful yet not overpowered (admittingly this is subjective but still a reasonable aim).

    Edit: incorrect spelling of benefit in the heading, oh well.
    I like the decrease in cooldown of the Avenging Light SLA, and the extra spell power.

    Be nice to see it cut in half somehow, its an awesome SLA, and that would help clerics a lot.

    Angel Destiny is highly dependent on light and healing spell being cast.
    SLA offers a way to metamagic and cast these cheaply.

  3. #1643

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    Quote Originally Posted by dunmoore View Post
    I like this new system.
    I respect that, and if most of the people I run into stated thus, I would be happy.

  4. #1644
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Big problem with this is that it automatically means that the ED Past Life Feats will be decidedly meh. They have to be or having them 3 times would be ridiculously overpowered.

    I'd rather see ED Past Life Feats being worthwhile taking once and once only.

    If that means we get extra ED's for Cleric, Artificer and then each of the Iconics then so much the better.
    Agreed.

    To tell the truth, I think the ED Past Life should be something like at level 1, you gain the Tier 0 Innate ability.

    Then at level 20, the bonded EDs' non-innate abilities and non-right column stat abilities get a rank boost. Let me explain... The first rank in any ability is treated as the second rank and so on until the top rank is treated as a rank higher than what's available.

    Here, let me use Shadowdancer's Tier 1 abilities as I'd like to see the Bonded EDs to appear:
    * Stealthy: Passive Bonus: +[2/4/6] to Hide and Move Silently skills; +[2/4/6] to Assassinate DC (if you have Assassinate)
    --- becomes on a Bonded ED as +[4/6/8] to Hide and Move Silently skills; +[4/6/8] to Assassinate DC (if you have Assassinate).
    * Shadow Lance: Active Ability: (Cooldown: 30 seconds) Throws 3 spears, each dealing [6/8/10]d3 + [18/24/30] unholy damage and has a chance to blind target (Fort DC [14/16/18] + Half character level + Intelligence modifier) if you have Dark Shrouding charges
    --- becomes (Cooldown: 30 seconds) Throws 3 spears, each dealing [8/10/12]d3 + [24/30/36] unholy damage and has a chance to blind target (Fort DC [16/18/20] + Half character level + Intelligence modifier) if you have Dark Shrouding charges.
    * Acrobatic: Passive Bonus: +[2/4/6] to Balance, Jump and Tumble and a +[3/6/9] bonus to reflex while tumbling
    --- becomes +[4/6/8] to Balance, Jump and Tumble and a +[6/9/12] bonus to reflex while tumbling.
    * Technician: Passive Bonus: +[2/4/6] to Search, Spot, Disable Device, Open Lock and flanking bonus to attack
    --- becomes +[4/6/8] to Search, Spot, Disable Device, Open Lock and flanking bonus to attack.

    As you can see, everything gets moved up by one. I think this would be something that people will seek out if they want to Epic TR while giving enough flexiblity to all class/builds that use these abilities.

  5. #1645
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    Agreed.

    To tell the truth, I think the ED Past Life should be something like at level 1, you gain the Tier 0 Innate ability.
    Not sure about the rank boost part though, ED enhancements are generally powerful enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    If you wanted a simple proposal, do the following when you bond a Destiny:
    1. You gain the Level 0 innate ability for that Destiny as a passive feat available to you at level 1
    2. You gain 1 extra Fate Point
    3. You gain 8 more points to spend in that tree

    When you have all of them bonded:
    1. You automatically gain the passive feat Epic Completionist which grants a stacking +2 bonus to all skills and ability scores.
    2. You gain a 4th Twist Slot
    3. You can now upgrade your Twist Slots to Tier 5

    And while you're doing this, please make the Completionist feat an auto-grant. You'll make a lot of people happy and won't break the game in the process.

    If you want extra fluff, how about the following:
    Completionist: Show double-wings around a character's name
    Epic Completionist: Add a flourish to the wings.
    Triple Completionist: Make the name and wings and flourish golden.
    If someone wants to come up with new additional Epic Destiny Past Life Feats that properly encapsulate the theme of the destinies instead then good luck to them, I'll be happy to obtain them

    Alternative would be to buff the level 0 innates and make them bondable. This way it benefits people with that destiny active and the destiny bonded. The one that I came up with was a suggestion of +10 PRR to Level 0 Draconic Incarnation so that it has something immediately beneficial to non-casters. It reflects the additional toughness inherent in the destiny and works thematically and from a mechanical gameplay point of view. Granting the level 0 innates as an auto-granted past-life feat at level 1 gives us a starting point, and we can then start discussing how to make these ED Past Lifes feat generically useful and relevant. The idea that you get the benefit of this while the destiny is active and as Epic Destiny Past Life feat even if you don't have the ED active seems like a no-brainer to me, and gives people a reason to Epic TR. If you really, really, really like that Innate ability, then set your sights on Epic TRing and making it a permanent feature.

    Epic Destiny Past Life Feats shouldn't be like Heroic Past Life Feats, they're one time deals where you have been able to absorb the essence of that destiny into the fibre of your being. Making the "buffed" level 0 innate ability part of your core being fits that bill in my mind

    EDIT: Incase I've not mentioned it recently, Heroic TR should not touch ED XP in any way at all. It's a massive mistake to link the two. Allow people the option to Heroic TR and bump their destinies up, then when they are ready, let them Epic TR. Couldn't be any simpler.

  6. #1646
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    Not sure if this has been said before, if it has then I apologize and cred to the original poster. My thoughts after bouncing through a little bit of the thread. I think if released this way, this destiny system would have rocked but now it is not the option of choice. It is something around 22 million xp(ED) people have put in to get their toons ready. So I think some options might be along the lines of...
    -when a player trs at epic cap, the active destiny is reset to zero xp and all others are untouched.
    - They get that Epic Destiny PL and lose 2 mil xp(not unfamilliar to the heroic tr system now.)
    -most people can get that destiny back up(at their leisure) on the way back to 28.
    -this follows closely to the heroic system is you lose the xp put towards the current life and gain a small advantage from it.
    - I also feel to remove the Epic advantage portion. it removes a large portion of the content and challenges present in game.
    - If people really want to jump levels on tr lives make stones of exp available(like a stone from 1-8/10) thus making it optional. this could also be an extremely rare drop in EE high level raids(since EE player bases are the most likely to want to avoid be able to bypass the lower level content.
    +Some ideas on things i would want to see in the Pl etc for epic.
    - I like almost everything Deadlock(assuming he was the original poster) said for the Pl being the innate tier 0 and what not. maybe a little different for the ones that might be just the 50sp thing but w/e still good.
    - I think if done the way i described for only nuking the active destiny then leaving fate points alone(this means people would gain 1 2/3 of a fatepoint each tr)
    -and also I believe Deadlock's point I liked was the Epic completionist being a fourth twist slot.
    -also perhaps make it so in say a previous tr you nuked EA and get it reduced to zero but the next life you fill it out and nuke say sentinel you keep any buffs to that tier 0 from the tree and so in this case you get 300Sp(maybe too powerful but who knows)

    I made my points bullets for each one to be taken seperately as desired. I know the original post said you were in the early stages but I hope you are still looking for constructive feedback on system(which I hope this is to you). Anyway sorry if the post is befuddling or a repost of someone's thoughts.
    Last edited by RonikiDisi; 06-24-2013 at 02:56 AM.

  7. #1647
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    Default If i am not too late to give my opinion

    Adding my voice and opinion, sorry if i am repeating what may have already been said, i only read like 50 of the 80 pages so far, but i have read all the post from devs. For what it’s worth, my credential on the subject are, my main is 12th life (3x cle,wiz,sorc,2x fvs) with every ED at lvl 5 except 2 at lvl 4. I have another legend character and the rest are all 1st life.

    Heroic TR: simply don’t change anything. You told all of us that TRing would not wipe our ED so you should honor that. I just don’t see the purpose of wiping the ED XP on a heroic TR. Also, if you insist on giving some EDXP to heroic TR, you probably just killed even more the low level heroic questing scene. With veteran status one and two plus Iconic, we would really only have completely new players doing lvl 1 to 7 quests i would think, not sure if that’s something you want. The only thing you should consider doing for heroic TR is reviewing some of the PL feats that are just not relevant anymore and giving completionist feat for free. That and helping with the XP grind of lvl 18-20 on legend life....reduce needed amount or better, increase XP from Cannith and Amrath.

    Iconic TR: just checking, but since Iconic TR at lvl 28, can they do a epic TR at the same time? As for past life, not sure what would make sense, but maybe something related to the racial enhancement line for Iconic?

    Epic TR (PL bonus): these are suggestions on what players could get when doing an EDTR, some or all could be used depending on game balance.
    • For every ED you bond, the ‘’tier of the powers’’ are consider one lower when twisting. Example: Renewal becomes tier 2, boulder toss becomes tier 0. Can stack PL 3 times. This would allow us to twist tier 5 & 6 power from an ED we have bonded with.
    • For every ED you bond, you get 2 points to spend in that ED on your next life. Can stack 3 times for total of 6 free pts. Would like to say 4pts per EDTR, but that could be too powerful...then again, we don’t know how the ED will evolve.
    • New 4th PL twist of faith slot, ‘’tier 0’’: Can only be used when twisting a power from a bonded ED.
    • Epic ED completionist: 5th twist of faith slot!
    • Free heroic PL feat if 4th life of the same class, only available when you do a EDTR. Lots of people did 3 PL of the same class because the liked it and our now on their 4th life. Allow them, me and the ubercompletionist out there to get a little something more.

    Epic Advantage: This is the hard one for me. I am of the point of view that since it’s something new, you can roll this out as you wish and i will use it or not. Personally, i would prefer to be doing the 20-28 EDTR, but if you must make us go back to heroic for ED PL and wipe our ED, you need to give good compensation! I like the system of banking XP that was mention in a previous dev reply, depending on the ratios we get back, it could work out. If for 3 maybe 4 ED (6 or 8 million XP) i could get back to lvl 16-20 on a legend life, i could live with that (I have to admit that Epic XP is gain in faster amounts per min then heroic). Also allow us to use the banked XP to refill our ED if we choose to do so but not the lvl 20-28 XP. My idea is, if it takes us around 6mil XP to cap at lvl 28, that’s 3ED that we can max out on the way there. I bond one and you wipe the XP of the other 2 in exchange of lvl 15 XP for me to star with the Iconics. The more ED XP i farm at cap, the more XP i get to bank for future life and use if/when i want to.

    All in all, it just a few ideas and my opinion on the subject. But i will say it again; the biggest thing that you should not touch is wiping ED XP on heroic TR. It is too late to go that route now, do what you want for any new TR system and we will use it or not, but don’t change something that has been in place for close to a year. Where i work, both the company and the customer have a 90 day satisfaction policy. If we under/over charge a customer, both have 90 days to contest the charge and correct it. You are way passed your 90 days for changing heroic TR (and the ED wipe you suggest that could come with it), just saying!

  8. #1648
    Community Member DogMania's Avatar
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    Question Im not sure if this has been said

    I have not read this thread for a few days now so it may have been mentioned but what is destine cap

    1) Level 5 in that destine
    2) Level 5 in that destine and rank 25
    3) Level 5 in that destine, rank 25 and maxed xp cap

    If we don't know then this could realy cause a BIG problem when tr'ing

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    I think my last comment in this thread got deleted. It went something along the lines of:

    So has this thread devolved into accepting a slightly watered down version of what Turbine were throwing at us yet?

  10. #1650
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    Quote Originally Posted by DogMania View Post
    I have not read this thread for a few days now so it may have been mentioned but what is destine cap

    1) Level 5 in that destine
    2) Level 5 in that destine and rank 25
    3) Level 5 in that destine, rank 25 and maxed xp cap

    If we don't know then this could realy cause a BIG problem when tr'ing
    Option 3, currently 1,980,000 XP in the ED

  11. #1651
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Big problem with this is that it automatically means that the ED Past Life Feats will be decidedly meh. They have to be or having them 3 times would be ridiculously overpowered.

    I'd rather see ED Past Life Feats being worthwhile taking once and once only.

    If that means we get extra ED's for Cleric, Artificer and then each of the Iconics then so much the better.
    What I expect from epic TR, in 3 choices:

    1. ETR will give very little benefit, epic completionist will grant almost nothing --> noone will bother to do ETR

    2. ETR will give significant benefit, epic completionist will grant a cool thing, like a 4th twist --> EVERYONE will do it, and only will do this, in other words, people will ETR all the time with their friends / guildies. PUGS will be deserted and abandoned, the only thing would make people to switch is a hard FoT time to time, as the only viable epic raid right now (and we know there is no more raid on the horizon). Friends will plan effective TR routes, and manage to get 4-6 ppl for quick TRs withing guilds or friendlists (maybe channels.)

    3. Someway between 1 and 2.

    So, point 1. is an absolute fail, point 2. will kill all the (random) grouping, and probably eliminate any content which is not fitting well into the "quick epic TR routes". I don't know anything about point 3., how it could be nice and effective, but this is why the employers of Turbine get their paycheck I guess.

  12. #1652
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    Epic TR for those with one or all capped EDs:

    - First, players would have to get to level 28 to Epic TR, and that would bring them back to level 20.

    - For each capped ED they already have, an Epic PL would be assigned.

    - So if a player already have all ED capped, he would get ALL passive EPL in his first ETR.

    - ED(s) then get reseted.

    - Players keep all Fate Points earned and can use them to choose powers they want from any ED they capped to help in the TR, even if they didnt get enough Epic XP to choose it from tree in their currenty TR.

    - Players start "round 2" of ETR, from 20 to 28, with all EDs reseted, and have to earn their way back to an ED cap (or all EDs) before a new ETR is allowed. Players get the option to regain ALL EDs BEFORE ETR to get ALL EPL at once BEFORE "round 3". Focus is on EDs not on levels 20 -28.

    - So players get the chance to choose if they want to cap one ED and ETR again to get only one EPL related to a particular ED, or if they want 2, or all (whatever they choose).

    - Players get the EPIC COMPLETIONIST feat after 3 rounds of Epic TR with all EDs capped 3 times.

    - Epic Completionist is actually a decent feat - also free.

    Benefets:

    -> This is fair to people who already capped more than one ED, since developers implemented EDs without the option to ETR.

    -> This reduces huge and no fun grind from players, since they only replay game on epic level to focus on EDs.

    -> The ability to relevel all EDs before an ETR and gain ALL EPL at once will give people the feeling that they are playing for fun not for grind, since they don't need to regain 8 epic level for every ED they want an EPL.

    -> This keep Heroic and Epic separated, like it should be.

  13. #1653
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yalinaa View Post
    What I expect from epic TR, in 3 choices:

    1. ETR will give very little benefit, epic completionist will grant almost nothing --> noone will bother to do ETR

    2. ETR will give significant benefit, epic completionist will grant a cool thing, like a 4th twist --> EVERYONE will do it, and only will do this, in other words, people will ETR all the time with their friends / guildies. PUGS will be deserted and abandoned, the only thing would make people to switch is a hard FoT time to time, as the only viable epic raid right now (and we know there is no more raid on the horizon). Friends will plan effective TR routes, and manage to get 4-6 ppl for quick TRs withing guilds or friendlists (maybe channels.)

    3. Someway between 1 and 2.

    So, point 1. is an absolute fail, point 2. will kill all the (random) grouping, and probably eliminate any content which is not fitting well into the "quick epic TR routes". I don't know anything about point 3., how it could be nice and effective, but this is why the employers of Turbine get their paycheck I guess.
    I'm pretty sure we can come with an option that isn't a choice between terrible and awful. There are already a lot of threads and posts about how deserted the pug scene is - if you missed the last one, just way a day or two and there'll be another one along. I'm not saying that there isn't a problem, but I'm saying that it's the same problem we have right now but we get by and hope that the marketing people at Turbine or WB can take some action to remedy the situation.

    We can only compare it to what we have at the moment. Right now we have Completionist, it gives +2 to all stats and +2 to all skills. For me, a nice incentive for those that are interested in it. A lot of us wanted it and worked to get it. A lot of people aren't interested, and that's cool because we cater for more than one type of player.

    Epic Completionist could just be the same again, maybe with an extra twist slot to add a "Master of Destinies" flavour. I certainly can't see Epic Completionist awarding less than the current Completionist, which is enough to make me interested. But whatever it looks like, you'll still have those of us who want it and others who aren't interested and would rather just keep the ED's they currently have (which is why it's so important to my mind that Heroic TR should not affect ED XP in any way). I don't believe that it will polarise the playerbase any more than we have at the moment.

    From a practical point of view, as someone who's done it, synchronising more than a couple of people to hard-run efficient XP trains becomes difficult to the point of being a waste of time to rely on it. The more people there are in your XP train, the more chance there is that someone has a scheduling conflict. So I don't see that we'll have any more or less of an issue with this than we currently do.

    The one thing that will happen is that instead of people on the TR train going from 1 to 20, a number of them will be going from 1 to 28, so there is a chance that they will be stretched out a bit more, but with the revised XP curves, I'm not sure that it will double the time to Epic TR as it is currently to Heroic TR.

    So I'm thinking that the Epic Completionist and ED Past Life Feats will be worth getting but doing multiple lives to get them isn't everyone's idea of fun. I certainly don't think that it'll break the game. Any potential impact can be minimised by investing in marketing to promote the strengths of the game and bringing in fresh blood.

  14. #1654
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Hi.
    Just wanted to touch base with you all again on this. Your feedback during this early stage of development for this system has definitely been helpful. And I’ll reiterate that because we are early in the process, we haven’t locked anything down. Now on to some additional info.

    We have multiple goals with a system like this, such as:
    • Give players the new option of TR-ing at level cap.
    • Give players more things to achieve with a high level TR type character (like epic destiny past life feats and build points).
    • Allow Iconic Hero characters to use the reincarnation system.
    • Optimize the system to help people have a good play experience. (This is a tough one, because there are different opinions on what a “good play experience” is, but this could mean giving incentives to concentrate on different Epic Destinies than were played in the previous life, for example.)
    • And as a less design-oriented but equally important goal: If changes are needed that affect players’ current investment, compensate them for the changes.
    Thanks for giving us the opportunity to provide feedback on such a dramatic change to the game.

    I have noticed on the DDO Oracle page that the number of active characters sharply drops between 20 and 25. I wonder if the ability to carry-forward some of the advantages of playing those additional levels would help with that drop off. It can be quite difficult to find groups at the +20 level other than for ED farming.

    My suggestion for your design discussions is about this: currently when you TR, when you hit 20 you start in the same ED as when you left to run heroic again. Instead, why not have the ability to start in the ED most appropriate for your new class? Instead of a cleric having to farm over to Exalted Angel from where ever, they could start there.

    Less farming - yay!
    Why not invite your spouse to play?

  15. #1655
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    I've seen dev's mentioned possibly letting us have "banked TR XP", that is leftover from epic destinies. Is this only going to be a 1 time thing or will it be persistant as long as I keep putting xp into destinies before an epic reincarnation.

    I only ask because it took me 2 days to cap all destinies running 3 quests while at cap. And allowing a kind of "banked TR xp" each life I could basically do lifes in a day or two.

  16. #1656
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    Quote Originally Posted by debo View Post
    I've seen dev's mentioned possibly letting us have "banked TR XP", that is leftover from epic destinies. Is this only going to be a 1 time thing or will it be persistant as long as I keep putting xp into destinies before an epic reincarnation.

    I only ask because it took me 2 days to cap all destinies running 3 quests while at cap. And allowing a kind of "banked TR xp" each life I could basically do lifes in a day or two.
    I don't see the problem with that if it's how one gets entertainment value from the game. If running the same 3 quests over and over is what one finds fun, then that should certainly be an option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by debo View Post
    I've seen dev's mentioned possibly letting us have "banked TR XP", that is leftover from epic destinies. Is this only going to be a 1 time thing or will it be persistant as long as I keep putting xp into destinies before an epic reincarnation.

    I only ask because it took me 2 days to cap all destinies running 3 quests while at cap. And allowing a kind of "banked TR xp" each life I could basically do lifes in a day or two.
    If/when the ransack on quest XP kicks in, it won’t be so fast. You will need to farm more quest and ok, you may still be able to do it in 5 or 7 days, but probably not 2 days anymore.

    As for the XP banking system, I would prefer persistent with limitations. Say we can only use bank XP on Heroic from lvl 1 to 15, allowing us to TR epic+heroic life at the same time as our Iconic friends. Also allow us to use it on our ED xp, not the lvl 20-28 xp bar, to be clear. This allowing us to regain some of the EDs that we lost in trees we are not bonding. For the ratio turn in of the bank XP, I would not expect a 1 for 1 ratio, more like 33% to 50% of my EDXP that I get back. Say 33% of a full 20mil EDXP would give us 6.6mil bank XP. We could then use 2mil XP to reach lvl 15 on a legend life and have 4.4mil XP to spend on 2 and a half ED trees.

    They can play with the numbers, but the EDXP banking could work, at least in my opinion.

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    Yep, just as I expected. Stockholm syndrome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanuk View Post
    If/when the ransack on quest XP kicks in, it won’t be so fast. You will need to farm more quest and ok, you may still be able to do it in 5 or 7 days, but probably not 2 days anymore.

    As for the XP banking system, I would prefer persistent with limitations. Say we can only use bank XP on Heroic from lvl 1 to 15, allowing us to TR epic+heroic life at the same time as our Iconic friends. Also allow us to use it on our ED xp, not the lvl 20-28 xp bar, to be clear. This allowing us to regain some of the EDs that we lost in trees we are not bonding. For the ratio turn in of the bank XP, I would not expect a 1 for 1 ratio, more like 33% to 50% of my EDXP that I get back. Say 33% of a full 20mil EDXP would give us 6.6mil bank XP. We could then use 2mil XP to reach lvl 15 on a legend life and have 4.4mil XP to spend on 2 and a half ED trees.

    They can play with the numbers, but the EDXP banking could work, at least in my opinion.
    Yes, it could work to ensure some players never TR again. Personally I TR because I want to play the game over. What I don't want to ever have to do over is regrind all those off destinies just to get the twists back. The only type of banking system I would find acceptable would give us back xp at 1:1 at least for the purpose of re-leveling destinies. That would actually be a move in the direction of improving the rather poor ED mechanics we were given in the first place as it would allow xp gained in useful destinies in one life to be used to not have to suffer through leveling useless one's in the next.

  20. #1660
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    Default My search-fu not so gooder

    Is there any idea as to what happens to someone that's in the middle of a heroic TR if/when this hits?

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