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  1. #1521
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Unfortunately, this is a myth.

    Grind is optional. Farming high XP/min quests is most definitely the most time-efficient way of gaining XP, but this doesn't suit everyone. Luckily you don't need to do this.

    To prove this point, for my 40th life, we decided to:
    1. do every quest once and once only ... you have no idea how much pain this caused me to leave Shadow Crypt after only one run, but them's the rules
    2. do challenges just once to try and get as many stars as possible and the first time XP bonusses that come with them - we skipped kobold island challenges completely because they're a pain without a full party of arcanes to keep the crystals repaired
    3. tag each explorer for each wilderness area on a single run, check for rares but not reset and repeat to try and get them all, and just pick up whatever slayers we got in the process
    4. not drink any XP pots, not even the ones you get from House Cannith challenges or turning in Eberron Dragonshards

    Now both myself and my regular TR buddy have the Greater Learning Tome from the MotU expansion. I'm a VIP, but he isn't so I get the extra 10% XP from that, but he doesn't. As a VIP I get all of the volumes in the Monster Manual but he's missing the latest one I think. So I did pick up more XP from the Monster Manual in the process than he did.

    The end result was that we both reached 20 without having to repeat a single quest, just by doing an Elite Streak. We ended up banking levels and ended up having to level to avoid wasting XP, which unfortunately meant we didn't get the Elite Streak bonus for those quests. We skipped the Lords of Dust chain completely and just came back to do it on Epic because the Epic XP is so good. Probably half of the raids we didnt' have a party at-level for so we skipped those too. It's definitely not the fastest life I've ever done, but we proved it's doable. Also, when you don't have an XP Pot burning away, you're much more relaxed about taking your time through the quests, so I'm confident a semi-capable party of 3rd lifers could maintain their elite streak at least until level 18.

    So I'm afraid grind is 100% optional. You might be missing an adventure pack but that's something you can fix.
    That's interesting, I've always personally wondered about this. Thanks for doing it and reporting the results.
    Have fun, and don't forget to gather for buffs!
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  2. #1522

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    Indeed.

  3. #1523
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    Lightbulb There is still normal (lesser) reincarnation though

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Say I true reincarnate a melee 3 times and pick up the epic past lives for grandmaster, dreadnaught, and fury. I then level the character up to 28 in the build I want. I have no desire to get other epic past lives really so I get all the fate points, twists, and generally get other epic destinies then the three I have bonded. I stay at 28 for 9 months or so and then for some reason I either want to check out another build or Turbine nerfs the build I have or what have you. I then have the choice of trring again and losing all the non bonded destinies, twists and fate points that I gained or stay as is.
    You can just use a normal / lesser reincarnation to change your build in that moment MaddMatt, that would enable you to change all the feats, build points and enhancements you would like, no?
    That way you can change most things (except race, alignment) - class needs a +1-+5 heart - but you won't lose (nor gain) any advantages.
    Last edited by Nascoe; 06-19-2013 at 11:07 AM.

  4. #1524
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    And this relates to Option 1 how?
    You have got to be kidding me. Are you actively trolling this topic?

    The whole conversation started when you replied to my post that Option 1 wasn't a good option since converting ED XP to Heroic XP was a bad idea. One of the reasons that it's a bad idea is because players would have to re-grind EDs that are horrible to for the current class/build that doesn't gel well together. Your reply was that it was irrelevant since players can TR when they get to an ED that doesn't work well then level it up that way (after running through the 20 levels of a class that a player either doesn't need or doesn't like to play).

    That is exactly how it relates to Option 1: because you said it was "irrelevant" if players wanted to level up EDs that don't work with their classes/builds (such as any heavy armor class and GMoF, casters in the melee sphere, Artificers trying to get to Shiradi, Divines trying to get to Shiradi or the Arcane sphere), since being able to TR into a better working class for that ED is an option.

  5. #1525
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    That's interesting, I've always personally wondered about this. Thanks for doing it and reporting the results.
    The Greater Tome of Learning is the key part there. Without it that play style would be much more difficult if not impossible. With it...well, it's changed the way that I play. I farm a lot less now that it's part of my toon's setup. Those first-time bonuses that stack up are just phenomenal.
    Tajawuka 20 Bladeforged Paladin running divine ETR's (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's, 3 martial epl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  6. #1526

    Default Increasing Unyielding Sentinel Epic Destiny to level 10

    An example of how the Unyielding Sentinel Epic Destiny could be expanded to level 10.
    (And when the level cap goes to 30, it will need to be expanded to level 10
    to compete with the epic destinies that must increase due to caster levels.)

    Add more points available to level.
    That would be 20 more points.

    There are plenty of places to spend those points.


    A bit more tricky here, trying to avoid any potential bugs,
    and assuming Epic Elites need a bit more tactics.

    As far as the level 6 thru 10 inates, I can fill those in too.

    6 Awesome Tactics 1: Passive Bonus: +1 to DC's of all tactical feats. Gain +20 hp.

    7 Awesome Tactics 2: Passive Bonus: +2 to DC's of all tactical feats.

    8 Awesome Tactics 3: Passive Bonus: +1 to DC's of all tactical feats. Gain +20 hp.

    9 Awesome Tactics 4: Passive Bonus: +2 to DC's of all tactical feats.

    10 Combat Brute 2: Passive Bonus: Increase to gain +2[W] damage with melee weapons instead of +1[W] while any Action Boost is active.
    Last edited by Silverleafeon; 06-19-2013 at 11:31 AM.

  7. #1527

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    I am not sure that I am qualified to work out examples of increasing
    the rest of the epic destinies properly.

  8. #1528
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliyse View Post
    Only sampled some of the messages here, so apologies if this covers old ground.
    The basic problem is progression. If TR is set at L28, what happens when the level cap is lifted?
    Epic Destiny True Reincarnation is defined as happening at level cap, not at level 28.

    If/when the level cap is increased beyond 28, so will the requirement. Yes, this means it's potentially quicker or easier if you do it sooner.

    That's our current thinking. This doesn't necessarily mean it will go on and on and on to level 999, but the important bit is that it's not tied to level 28.

  9. #1529

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    With these changes we are also keeping a long-term view for TR, such as how to expand the Epic Destiny system and continue to support level cap growth in the future.
    I hope my efforts help a little bit, feel free to change/expand/discard/reuse/ect..

    Good Luck and please keep communicate with us villagers.

  10. #1530
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    The sudden "out in force" response is interesting, safe to say you guys have heard how disenfranchised many DDO forum goers feel lately.

    I'd really like to see something similar with the Enhancement pass post alpha... The angst over this Epic TR issue is concentrated on one focal point (losing hard earned ED's)
    Hopefully the developers realize that the angst expressed in regards to the TR proposal is just the straw that broke the camel's back. Players are reacting this strongly not just because they might lose EDxp but because that is on top of the Enhancement frustration as well. I agree with Ironclans - don't pay less attention to the problems with Enhancements because you feel this TR thing is more important to the players. They are both important.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickSlick79 View Post
    To me, Epic Destiny experience isn't viewed as wasteful when my concern is Past Lives. Every Epic tree has something that could make any class better. And with the system you've given us, taking some time to level the next ED tree could mean my next TR has an even EASIER time when I get to Epic with HIS class. Or it means I get an ability that helps with my CURRENT class BEFORE I TR. It does ALWAYS mean I get more fate points to unlock more powerful options.
    I agree - there were already people putting some effort into EDs and then TRing.

    But I have always thought it was a mistake to separate Epic levels from Heroic levels. Epic Destinies should have been worked into the Prestige Enhancement system. Then we could have stayed with one TR at whatever the level cap was. The system even before Glin's OP seemed unnecessarily complicated to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    It take 3Mxp to cap from 20 to the current 25cap. Let's generously assume that it will be 6Mxp when the cap raises to 28. 6Mxp represents 3 capped Destinies. So running that content, earning that xp, then giving it up PLUS losing 2 destinies is not commensurate with the gain of one ED past life feat. It forces us to consider NOT having an uncapped destiny active while levelling, since any xp gained in it (in THEM actually, remember 4Mxp wasted!), will be lost anyways. And if we're not gaining usable xp, then why run in that state? In otherwords why eTR?
    This is another part of why separate EDxp doesn't make any sense. We are used to "losing" the xp earned in a life when we TR but losing EDxp is separate from that and especially painful if it was put into a ED that didn't even help or actively hindered leveling in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    - Leveling through the heroic levels -- all of them, 1 to 20 -- is super fun.
    - Grinding destinies is no fun, it's a "hold your nose and get through it so you can get back to having fun" kind of deal.
    - If I could level off destinies while my preferred destiny is active, grinding destinies would immediately go from unfun chore to super fun playtime that I looked forward to, much like I look forward to heroic tring.
    - Infinite fate points isn't a problem; they are naturally capped at 4/4/4, and the epic amount of grinding needed for 4/4/4 is on par with completionist. I'd never do completionist or 4/4/4, but my vote is to add the ability to get to 4/4/4. Let the hardcores have their fun.
    Here we go.

  11. #1531
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Tomes of Fate drop in loot, from Caught in the Web and Fall of Truth.
    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Well I have run the raid about 20 or so times on epic elite and 400 or so times on epic hard and I think that was the only one I have seen so it might as well not exist.
    C'mon Vargouille, really?

  12. #1532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Sorry man, not going to edit that to make it readable to me. 40 lives is only on my main, but anyway, that's not relevant, nobody is suggesting that more lives automatically makes you a better player than someone will less, or entitles you to an opinion where others haven't earned one. Not forgetting of course that those of us who have been playing for 6 or 7 years back when TRing wasn't an option would cap and delete characters because that was the only option.

    I'm not really sure what the rest of your post is saying, at a quick scan it sounds angry and that experienced players don't do enough for new players.

    I can only speak for myself, I don't pretend to speak for the majority of the players, but if you feel that your position speaks for them then more power to your elbow.
    Not angry, just something I have seen as a trend for the past couple of years. People who have run it over and over and power gamers who don't mind the grind do a ton of past lives. That isn't the norm for the community as a whole do you have to run either everything and do over quests you didn't enjoy the answer is no, do you have to repeat things a million times to get the xp needed the answer is no, but you do have to do one or the other. neither is particularly enjoyable. I just got through playing some on a Tr right a few minutes ago. There was 1 lfm up that didn't have vets/TR only in the comments. The extra amounts of xp needed for a TR is the main reason for seeing that constantly. What I said and I guess I will say it in clearer less rambling terms is that is one of the biggest reasons this game loses a lot of newer players.

  13. #1533
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Epic Destiny True Reincarnation is defined as happening at level cap, not at level 28.

    If/when the level cap is increased beyond 28, so will the requirement. Yes, this means it's potentially quicker or easier if you do it sooner.

    That's our current thinking. This doesn't necessarily mean it will go on and on and on to level 999, but the important bit is that it's not tied to level 28.
    ^^ This is what diminishes rewards, and makes the TR systems lose value as the game progresses.

    +10 SP used to matter a LOT more than it does now.
    +1 to hit USED to matter a lot more than it does now.

    The res rewards 'should' IMHO scale based on % even meger ones, so that as the cap raises, as the mana pools deepen, then your efforts evolve with the game.

    Who is going to do 20 levels of fighter for +1 to hit when ACs scale into the hundreds? It "was" 5% to hit when the game was released. Now it's sub 2% at cap, and is going to further diminish with level 28.

    I think the methodology of past life feats needs rebalanced the combat changes modified a lot in this game, and not EVERYTHING was updated.

  14. #1534
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    That's interesting, I've always personally wondered about this. Thanks for doing it and reporting the results.
    Which isn't to say that there aren't a number of quests that need their XP turned up. This was a loooong life and painful in places when you looked at the XP report upon completion.

    If you would like a list of the really bad ones, I'd be more than happy to send you a document detailing them all with suggestions on what they should be.

    If any of my suggestions seem crazy, you can take a QA team through the quest on hard, and they should be getting 1k/min without XP Pots, XP Tomes or VIP status.

  15. #1535
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Epic Destiny True Reincarnation is defined as happening at level cap, not at level 28.

    If/when the level cap is increased beyond 28, so will the requirement. Yes, this means it's potentially quicker or easier if you do it sooner.

    That's our current thinking. This doesn't necessarily mean it will go on and on and on to level 999, but the important bit is that it's not tied to level 28.
    The biggest problem is going to be a repeat of the heroic Prestige system. Without Prestige IIIs or Destinies that span the entire level curve, characters feel stagnant.

    A player caps his preferred destiny in level 24 currently. So levels 25, 26, and 27 provide little benefit if they're placed in the current system until a player gets level 28 and another feat. Much like TRs previously would never take level 19 because the benefit for doing so was so nominal that it was more advantageous to just bank to 20. The 18-20 slump is so bad not only because Amrath and House C have low XP values, but you aren't progressing your play experience through level 19; you just stagnate til you have enough XP for 20. For a Legend life, you hit 18 at 3.23 million xp, and need 4.38 million to cap; after attaining 18, you need another 1/3rd of your total xp for your next sense of progress.

    It's engineered stagnation, or heavy-handed encouragement to play off-destinies.
    Last edited by Systern; 06-19-2013 at 12:33 PM.

  16. #1536
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    The Greater Tome of Learning is the key part there. Without it that play style would be much more difficult if not impossible. With it...well, it's changed the way that I play. I farm a lot less now that it's part of my toon's setup. Those first-time bonuses that stack up are just phenomenal.
    Greater Tome is the best thing ever. Don't need any Bravery Bonus streak at all, aside from what you pick up that life. No need for xp pots either. Vip, Mantle/Voice, and Shrine buff, maybe a xp week, all make TRing so easy now.

  17. #1537
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    Something else that I don't want to just assume you guys thought of....


    There's currently a kludge in place due to the lack of Epic content. Essentially, for grouping purposes no one's considered higher than level 23 (Level 25s are considered 23 in epic quests to not penalize other epic characters)...


    Will this kludge be adjusted for the new cap? There's still not a lot of epic content to play after all. Druid's Deep is not run regularly. Disciples of Shadow has no epic content. Shadowfell is not adding a lot of epic content either (only half of it is epic).

  18. #1538
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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    The biggest problem is going to be a repeat of the heroic Prestige system. Without Prestige IIIs or Destinies that span the entire level curve, characters feel stagnant.

    A player caps his preferred destiny in level 24 currently. So levels 25, 26, and 27 provide little benefit if they're placed in the current system until a player gets level 28 and another feat. Much like TRs previously would never take level 19 because the benefit for doing so was so nominal that it was more advantageous to just bank to 20. The 18-20 slump is so bad not only because Amrath and House C have low XP values, but you aren't progressing your play experience through level 19; you just stagnate til you have enough XP for 20. For a Legend life, you hit 18 at 3.23 million xp, and need 4.38 million to cap; after attaining 18, you need another 1/3rd of your total xp for your next sense of progress.

    It's engineered stagnation, or heavy-handed encouragement to play off-destinies.
    I agree with this 1000%

    The whole Necro series have this huge inflationary numbers compared to most of the game. Giant hold is the same way. I don't know if they are just making the F2P content painful, or giving such crazy bonuses to these quests because the design philosophy was different.

    Mad Stone is a straight up beat down, linear, and easy. Yet yields such CRAZY XP in comparison to the effort and the maze that is inferno of the damned. Both level 14, one requires a maze, portals, fire and ice spells, has squat for 'epic' loot, is just a painful quest.

    Clearly the added requirements, this maze, the spell requirements, the traps, and the lack of optionals make inferno of the damned, probably one of the least run quests. Yet madstone is probably farmed like no other! The optional xp, and store bought clerics are MORE than enough to do this, fast and fairly easy!

    We could have a whole different thread discussing the travesty that is shadow king (easy!!!! STUPID FAST XP)

  19. #1539
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    Something else that I don't want to just assume you guys thought of....


    There's currently a kludge in place due to the lack of Epic content. Essentially, for grouping purposes no one's considered higher than level 23 (Level 25s are considered 23 in epic quests to not penalize other epic characters)...


    Will this kludge be adjusted for the new cap? There's still not a lot of epic content to play after all. Druid's Deep is not run regularly. Disciples of Shadow has no epic content. Shadowfell is not adding a lot of epic content either (only half of it is epic).
    Shadowfell is supposed to be level 16-18 content WITH and epic option (devs correct me if I'm wrong).

  20. #1540
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    The biggest problem is going to be a repeat of the heroic Prestige system. Without Prestige IIIs or Destinies that span the entire level curve, characters feel stagnant.

    A player caps his preferred destiny in level 24 currently. So levels 25, 26, and 27 provide little benefit if they're placed in the current system until a player gets level 28 and another feat. Much like TRs previously would never take level 19 because the benefit for doing so was so nominal that it was more advantageous to just bank to 20. The 18-20 slump is so bad not only because Amrath and House C have low XP values, but you aren't progressing your play experience through level 19; you just stagnate til you have enough XP for 20. For a Legend life, you hit 18 at 3.23 million xp, and need 4.38 million to cap; after attaining 18, you need another 1/3rd of your total xp for your next sense of progress.

    It's engineered stagnation, or heavy-handed encouragement to play off-destinies.
    Devs, please read this... excellent summary... We always want to feel like we're progressing... Heroic TR works from 1-18 because each level gets you something... Level 19 gives almost nothing (maybe some random gear ML), AND 18-20 takes a ton of exp, so it feels like a dead spot...

    I am worried that you are creating a new dead spot from 25-28... You'll already have your 2 EDs maxed half-way through 25, working on any other ED is a waste of exp since it will disappear on epic TR.

    Here's how I would fix end-game

    Epic TR back to level 1... Get the ED PL... lose none of the ED exp. The trade-off is that you have to level back to level 28... from level 1. This is how the current TR system works and it's very successful.
    Add a ED every 6 months
    Add more 25-28 content.
    Epic ToD and VoD and Shroud
    1 new epic raid every year
    Make it possible to upgrade level 20 epic gear to level 28, so they are worthwhile again.

    And while you're at it:

    Increase exp for Amrath and Cannith quests. A lot. Why haven't you done this yet?
    Increase exp for challenges. A little.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

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