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  1. #1341
    Community Member Kayla93's Avatar
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    Well Im glad devs are listening.
    As you said "a lot of players play once or twice a week".
    So consider that TR (heroic) for those ppl will be like 3 months.
    1 ETR - half year.
    This is seriously still a big grindfest.
    I still am for option for leaving heroic and epic TR as differents, heroic 1-20, epic 20-28 with ED loose.

    I am really up for goals in game - but 11x half year is not really that great. Thats 5 years and 6 months. I mean... Thats a lot of time. Even if I started doing those TRs I would be sick of game by that time if I was TRing over and over again.

    I am up for anything that lets me pass first 20 lvls considering that I did those like 6-7 times already and want no more.
    Last edited by Kayla93; 06-18-2013 at 01:54 AM.

  2. #1342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Option 1: XP “Bank” System
    When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

    Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
    When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.
    I've not read the whole thread so this may have been suggested, but here's an idea for another option:

    All epic destinies are preserved when TR'ing except the active one. So, for example, I level to 28 and max out legendary dreadnaught, fatesinger, and shadowdancer and get level 4 in draconic incarnation. I epic TR with shadowdancer active. On my next life I gain the shadowdancer past life, but shadowdancer's xp is reset to zero. Legendary dreadnaught and fatesinger are still maxed and draconic incarnation is still at level 4. Basically, I'd only need to re-level the destiny I got the past life for. There'd be no need for compensation or anything like that. You'd be trading the xp from one destiny (and any fate points earned from it's levels) for a past life feat. One can level it up again on the following life and never need to again (assuming you don't TR with it active again).

  3. #1343
    Community Member hunzi2010's Avatar
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    ok, as a player from Australia, I find this a pain in the preverbial.
    I play an American game server when most of you are asleep and it takes me like 3 month to level a toon to 20 without the help of farming xp and boosting with pots..
    I like to play the game with people, and I hate soloing, as the reason I joined a MMORPG is also for the interaction.
    Biggest problem I see here is you have people with too much time on their hands (no job, but please dont take offense to that...please....no harm intended to anyonew, as global economy is tuff) and they play and play and play and then boast how they solo epic elites.
    ofcourse the developerds are going to get annoyed, as your not supposed to be able to produce 25k damage....
    so simple fix I think for alot of the problems is you have to have 2 players minimum, not solo and a hire. then you wont get people advancing as quick, as you need to have a group.
    and just to also throw out there, if the developers can fix all these problems about people dominating and having to make it hards for people, please can you fix my bug everytime I get off my ship......pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!
    thanks

  4. #1344

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    Quote Originally Posted by hunzi2010 View Post
    so simple fix I think for alot of the problems is you have to have 2 players minimum, not solo and a hire. then you wont get people advancing as quick, as you need to have a group.
    Ugh, I would hate this.

  5. #1345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    multiple TR variants not feasible
    If multiple TR variants give you headache, let's stick to a single TR:
    - If you TR at 20-27, you don't get epic PL.
    - If you TR at 28, you can bond a maxed destiny and get an epic PL.

    On each TR:
    -heroic exp - lost
    -epic exp - lost
    -epic ED exp - halved
    --any ED that you maxed is flagged as maxed, and can never be (via multiple TRs) reduced below level 3
    --any ED that you bonded remains maxed thru all TR
    --all unlocked ED remain unlocked
    --fate points are recalculated

    +Award one extra fate point for each bonded ED
    +Flatten XP curve

  6. #1346
    Community Member Moltier's Avatar
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    My first post since the new forum. :P

    So instead of the original idea (all but 1 destiny lost), or the xp bank system, just give the players their fate points based on the highest destiny levels in any of their lifes. So like first life ends up with maxed Shadowdancer and Grandmaster. 2nd life ends up with Fatesinger and Draconic. (S)he couldnt use them in the 3rd life (or just 1), but the fate points would be based on those. If one of these destines are lower level, like 3, then you can advance it later, but there would be no pressure to do everything in a single life.

    Also let us choose any of the destinies to lvl, or at least the already unlocked destinies in next lifes.

    Quite simple on paper (maybe not easy to program, dunno), and you wouldnt have to make overpowered past life feats to make it worth it.
    You would have what you want, more grind, yet, we could get back our twist quite fast, without too much effort.
    Those who already have everything maxed could get most of the usefull twists by the time they reach lvl25 or lvl28.

    So in short:
    1. Let us keep fate points based on previous destiny levels.
    2. Let us choose already unlocked destinies in new lifes.
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  7. #1347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Another goal is allowing efficiently earning of heroic class-based past lives while playing epic content.
    UGH. Please re-think this. This should NOT be a goal.

    Do not give away heroic PLs to people who just sit at cap and play end-game stuff. Weren't you all just making the point about how TRing is about giving up your power? Getting a Heroic class-based past life is not too hard, but you should get a Heroic past life by playing Heroic levels. Plus, don't you want a vibrant community of players through all levels to help fill up LFMs and mentor new players?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Right now it's "wasteful" to play epic if your primary concern is past lives.
    RIGHT NOW it is NOT wasteful, because any epic destiny XP you earn is preserved. I, and many other people I know, like to alternate between TRing and playing at Epic levels.

  8. #1348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Another goal is allowing efficiently earning of heroic class-based past lives while playing epic content. Right now it's "wasteful" to play epic if your primary concern is past lives.
    Actually, it would be only "wasteful" if you wipe ED XP when you Heroic TR.

    The situation at the moment is that you can get a taste of Epic content and have some fun doing it, while experimenting with Epic Destinies.

    Players will spend as much time doing Epic content as they feel like on that build, they may or may not reach level 28 as the new cap, when they decide that their build really isn't suitable for Epic content - and in particular their build could be wholly unsuitable for Epic Elite. So they will want to TR it. This is where you need to give people a choice:
    (1) Heroic TR and retain your ED XP for your next foray into Epics, picking up a Heroic Past Life Feat in the process.
    (2) Continue on to level cap and Epic TR to gain a Heroic or Iconic Past Life Feat plus an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat, but accepting whatever the final ED XP cost will be for the Epic TR option.

    The current situation has no waste. It's only your proposal on Heroic TRing that introduces it.

  9. #1349
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    Unhappy

    I would really hate to not start at level one when heroic tr'ing. I really love playing low level content and almost all heroic quests. Their graphics may be aging, but the quest are far more superior in design and complexity than any of the epic only content.

  10. #1350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Actually, it would be only "wasteful" if you wipe ED XP when you Heroic TR.

    The situation at the moment is that you can get a taste of Epic content and have some fun doing it, while experimenting with Epic Destinies.

    Players will spend as much time doing Epic content as they feel like on that build, they may or may not reach level 28 as the new cap, when they decide that their build really isn't suitable for Epic content - and in particular their build could be wholly unsuitable for Epic Elite. So they will want to TR it. This is where you need to give people a choice:
    (1) Heroic TR and retain your ED XP for your next foray into Epics, picking up a Heroic Past Life Feat in the process.
    (2) Continue on to level cap and Epic TR to gain a Heroic or Iconic Past Life Feat plus an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat, but accepting whatever the cost will be for the Epic TR option.

    The current situation there is no waste. It's only your proposal on Heroic TRing that introduces it.
    This! <3

  11. #1351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Another goal is to not make heroic reincarnation better than Epic Destiny reincarnation, making it still often "right" to do heroic reincarnation instead of ever playing epic. We of course expect that Epic Destiny reincarnation should be better in some way(s), because it's more effort to achieve it.
    Heroic TR = gain a Heroic Past Life Feat, make a step forward towards Completionist.
    Epic TR = gain Heroic or Iconic Past Life Feat plus an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat, make a step forward to both Completionist and Epic Completionist.

    A new character who Heroic TRs 2 times and then Epic TRs 11 times will have Completionist and Epic Completionist after 13 lives.
    Compared to a character who only Heroic TR's 13 times and gains Completionist.

    Does it need to be any simpler than this?

    If your real goal is to try and somehow shoehorn people into Epic and out of Heroic then I could understand why you would create such a negative association with Heroic TRing, but I believe it's better to let the players decide for themselves which TR option they will choose. Gaining a 38 point build, the Epic Destiny Past Lives and the new auto-granted Epic Completionist Feat should be incentive enough for those that are interested.

  12. #1352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Fate Points: An example dive into some details
    We are aware of concerns with Fate Points under any proposal. They are somewhat tricksy.

    We could consider having characters "remember" how many they had. However, we don't consider it viable to let you gain more Fate Points as you regain Destiny XP (should we choose to go forward with any of proposal where any kind of XP is lost, whether from one destiny or many). That leads to infinite or at least "quite a lot" of Fate Points in the long run. That unfortunately means that if we simply blindly preserve your total but don't let you accumulate more until you would have more: The right thing to do is never TR until you have maxed out all Epic Destinies. We know that some players like to break up earning Destinies with reincarnation, and we would like to support that.
    Recalculating Fate Points each life based on your total ED Levels and any other bonusses isn't a deal breaker for me.

    A fairly simple solution that still allows us to progress our total number of Fate Points would be:
    1. Add the 6th level to an Epic Destiny for it being "capped", award an extra 4 Action Points to that tree for capping it. This makes a capped Epic Destiny worth 2 Fate points.
    2. Add 1 Fate Point for each Epic Destiny Past Life - again, easy to calculate.
    3. Retain store purchased Fate Points from Tomes of Fate through TRing.
    4. Add 2 Fate Points and a 4th Twist Slot at Epic Completionist, maybe allow Twists to go to Tier 5 instead of the current max at Tier 4.

    This gives us 22 Fate Points from capping all ED's plus 11 from ED Past Lifes, plus 2 from Epic Completionist plus 2 from Tomes for a total of 37 Fate Points, which would allow us something like a 5/3/2/1 split on our twists.

    And you've just made a great argument for retaining ED XP with Heroic TRing in the part I've highlighted above.

  13. #1353
    Community Member Lauf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Another goal is allowing efficiently earning of heroic class-based past lives while playing epic content. Right now it's "wasteful" to play epic if your primary concern is past lives.
    attaining heroic past lives should not be possible while playing epic content. exercise some common sense please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Another goal is to not make heroic reincarnation better than Epic Destiny reincarnation, making it still often "right" to do heroic reincarnation instead of ever playing epic.
    your "goals" make it seem that you are awfully concerned about getting the TR crowd to play epic content and remain at cap. let me help you out here as someone who has a toon with over 20 lives and TRs whenever possible: I do not remain at cap because I get bored running the same 5 quests. pretty soon staying at cap is reduced to waiting 3 days for the raid timer to expire. I prefer running a multitude of quests, and no amount of rewards would make staying at cap a more enjoyable experience. what it may do is provide me with a good enough reason to stay at cap, against my wishes (much like farming 20 shrouds for an essence of cleansing). Staying at cap with not much to do is NOT my idea of fun, and I would urge you not to create artificial incentives for doing so. if you do want to make staying at cap a viable option - CREATE MORE CONTENT. it may surprise you, but if it would be *fun* to stay at cap, more people would do so.
    stop increasing the level ranges, start creating more content for the levels you have. that way you'll keep players interested, and you won't have to re-invent the classes and progression every year.
    and as an added benefit, new / casual players won't have to worry about getting obnoxious amounts of xp just to be able to experience what the game has to offer. they would have more quests available to them at the levels they are at.
    oh and last but not least, this would also mean that people who do TR often (i.e. your hard core) would have more content at their disposal while leveling. in other words, it'll help you preserve your client base. create more content for the levels you already have.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We of course expect that Epic Destiny reincarnation should be better in some way(s), because it's more effort to achieve it.
    ok now I am assuming Epic Destiny reincarnation would put you back at level 1. if so then I'm with you. going from level 1 to 25 (or 28) is more of an effort than going from 1 to 20.
    If however the Epic Destiny reincarnation would put you back at level 20, as some, including Glin in an earlier post, have suggested, then I have to say this makes very little sense, as getting from 1-20 is much more of an effort than leveling 20-25.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We are aware of concerns with Fate Points under any proposal. They are somewhat tricksy.
    I have read through your description of the different potential problems you perceive, and I'll be honest, it seems you're fumbling all over yourself making it more complicated than it needs to be.
    Keep it simple.
    today there's a maximum possible number of fate points. that should give you a clear hint.
    HAVE a maximum possible number of fate points. simple enough right?
    if there will be a maximum number of allowed fate points, you'll never have a problem of
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    infinite or at least "quite a lot" of Fate Points in the long run.
    so that's solved. next.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    That unfortunately means that if we simply blindly preserve your total but don't let you accumulate more until you would have more
    wow there cowboy, hold your horses.
    today players get a fate point for every 3 epic levels they get. lets call it a "milestone". now, here's a bit of common sense thrown your way:
    if player has reached a milestone, and the player's number of fate points is smaller then the maximum allowed, add a fate point.

    doesn't get much simpler than that.

    fate points would be kept through TRing, and so every player would be able to achieve his maximum allowed number of fate points within a reasonable time invested, regardless if he constantly epic TRs the same ED, or if he maximizes all the EDs without TR. how to get the fate points would be up to the player.
    it's not that complicated....

  14. #1354
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post
    Good advice, which is why earlier in this thread I started a post saying "If I was designing this..."

    Its nice that you have worked your way up to have 20 developers reporting to you. When I was but a lad of 30, I had 155 world class developers (spread across 2 US states and Japan) taking design guidance from me. I'll be happy to compare notes, when you catch up. By the way, that was over 20 years ago. You probably need to start running faster.

    Do you play DDO at work? I admit, I really don't know what an "Uber completionist" is, but it sounds really time consuming.

    For the sake of accuracy, I should note that they really weren't goals for me, as they were achieved without prior planning. They did, however, seem to be reasonable starter goals for you. Once you achieve them, by all means let me know, and I'll try to find something a bit more challenging. Baby steps.
    Very impressive. Will give you something to look back on in your dottage.

    I definitely missed your earlier post then, and I've been too distracted by this ***-for-tat to go back and re-read the thread to find it. I will gladly retract any accusations that you've brought nothing to the table apart from negative criticism without any positive suggestions.

    I do indeed regularly play at work, but then I have a very understanding boss as the owner of the company. I wouldn't say that the Triple Completionist thing is particularly time consuming, I'm just very fortunate that gaming fits in great with my lifestyle.

    And thanks for the offer to set me some challenging goals, but I wouldn't want us to just end up bickering further on whether I consider those to be a challenge or not and it might be demoralising if it turns out that I've exceeded them already.

  15. #1355
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    Default Last straw, pretty much

    It's my official position. If there is something my toons can or should do that wipes out capping all of the EDs on two toons, I will leave DDO.

    ~ Dazz

  16. #1356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    The team has been having some further design discussions, based on feedback from this thread. It seems important to state - they recognize that several players are already very invested in Epic Destinies, this was absolutely part of the early design discussions. There are a couple Epic game-play solutions in debate that we’ll be sharing with you as well. There won’t be any flash decisions made as design changes are considered, between posts we will be spending a lot of time reviewing the many directions the system can take players, as we are a few months away from starting development.
    Great Damage Control post, but it doesn't address our concerns at all. And with the track records Turbine has given us recently, nobody believes anything said by any representative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    Actually "several" may be overstating when we are talking about maxing out all EDs. There is a good portion of players that focus on TR, and others that run only to cap picking up a couple ED's then roll an Alt. There are also casual players that don't play every week and take a very long time to take a character through content.
    We are not only talking of the players that already have maxed out their EDs, but also of all the players that have 2 or 3 maxed out EDs and are still wadding through unwanted EDs to reach things whey would like to have as a twist. There's also those that are levelling a few ED, then TRing their character, and going through a few more EDs because they are more palatable with another class.
    There's lot of cases where people invest lots of time in EDs while not capping them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Hi.
    Just wanted to touch base with you all again on this. Your feedback during this early stage of development for this system has definitely been helpful. And I’ll reiterate that because we are early in the process, we haven’t locked anything down. Now on to some additional info.

    We have multiple goals with a system like this, such as:
    • Give players the new option of TR-ing at level cap.
    • Give players more things to achieve with a high level TR type character (like epic destiny past life feats and build points).
    • Allow Iconic Hero characters to use the reincarnation system.
    • Optimize the system to help people have a good play experience. (This is a tough one, because there are different opinions on what a “good play experience” is, but this could mean giving incentives to concentrate on different Epic Destinies than were played in the previous life, for example.)
    • And as a less design-oriented but equally important goal: If changes are needed that affect players’ current investment, compensate them for the changes.
    You still have the problem backward. You want to add Epic TR, great, don't touch Heroic TR at all. Heroic TR should stay as it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
    When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.
    This option is probably the good one if, when you do an Heroic TR all your Destinies XPs and Levels are kept ( disabled until you reach 20 ).


    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Right now it's "wasteful" to play epic if your primary concern is past lives.
    Right now it is wasteful to play epic contents once you have capped your character... There is almost nothing interesting that makes you wish to return there ( except for Tor and a few other quests )
    People TR because there is nothing to do at End-Game. ( and it's going to be worse with the expansion )

    The old Epics have a grandfathered system with obsolete items
    The Eveningstar/Thread quests are taking a long time to reach, the Raid is a PITA for loot that is so so with a retarded drop rate, the quests in themselves are not that bad, but again the items are so so... Random loot is usually better.
    The Gianthold quests are nice ( even if we have known them for years ), the loot in some case is not that bad, but there's no real incentive to go back there except for the Dragonscales in Tor, and once you have made your armors there's not much to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Another goal is to not make heroic reincarnation better than Epic Destiny reincarnation, making it still often "right" to do heroic reincarnation instead of ever playing epic. We of course expect that Epic Destiny reincarnation should be better in some way(s), because it's more effort to achieve it.
    Then use the Heroic TR as it is as a starting point and the minimum to keep for Epic TR and build Epic TR from that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    This is unlikely because there's lots of other things we could do with that development time, which we suspect most players would prefer.
    Well you could develop more quests, more content, and eventually finish all the things that have been started and then left to rot instead of adding yet another thing that will probably left unfinished. For example the Planescaller dialog in the Tower of the Twelve hints that there were several other planes to visit planned when Amrath was released... where are they ?
    And there's doors everywhere in Stormreach that cannot be opened. D&D is about adventures behind every door, make it so, even if the adventure is a Devil Assault Redux.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    When you TR, you may choose to plan your class and ED so they work well together; therefore, this aspect of your argument lacks relevance.
    You have never played EDs have you? By design you are forced to spend more time in EDs that aren't useful than EDs that are useful. That will get even worse once the level cap increases to 28.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    There will be 4 Iconic options with available PL's that stack X3. These also start at level 15. TR runs with these will get you up to 12 Iconic PL's and all (currently) 11 ED PL's without re-running any of the heroic classes.
    Ahhhhh yes. Somehow in reading all of this thread that slipped my mind. Thanks for the reminder!
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  19. #1359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Option 1: XP “Bank” System
    When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

    Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
    When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.
    Why can't you say selective options at ED TR? You can have both, not one.
    Let me show you how I think it is.

    • You can select which EDs you'll burn, or deposit your ED XP to XP bank. (to give you xp at heroic.)
    • By this way, you have other choice that any ED is NOT selected to burn/deposit if you don't want reset ED XP. This results you won't get any beneficial heroic bonus XP by ED XP reset.
    • But your claimed ED WILL BE RESET to give you Epic Past Life, and to be bonded. Only you can keep XP of which EDs you want to make remain, except for one ED for Epic Past Life and bonding.

    This way would be a compromise suggestion.

    I think you had to reset ED when TR first when ED shown, then ppl won't get be mad like this, hehe. but developers got a mistake already.
    Last edited by Targal; 06-18-2013 at 06:49 AM.

  20. #1360

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Option 1: XP “Bank” System
    When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The XP ratio hasn't been stated nor determined for reasons you make obvious. This is one of those places where it doesn't even make sense for us to worry deeply about the numbers unless it's decided the idea in general could make any sense. (We know players always love seeing the numbers, but if we went in this direction we'd likely just going to go look at and see how much XP/minute players are actually getting at different levels to figure out a ratio. 1:1 isn't special. It could be 1:3 or 3:1 or pi:e:i.

    It does not matter what the numbers are, it does not matter at all.

    We will find a way to abuse this system so badly that you regret implementing it someday.

    That is a promise.

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