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  1. #1301
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeoLionxxx View Post
    The whole banking-xp thing doesn't sit well with me. There is plenty of content for players to level up without huge bursts of non-quest XP. The baking is not needed as it encourages players to skip levels and content. Content is fun, and leveling is fun.
    .
    For YOU it is.


    A ongoing. Problem I see are the completionists etc. voicing their opinions against any XP banking system that will allow them to bypass some or all heroic content if enough is banked. These players represent such a fraction within a fraction of the player base but are highly vocal. They like the current system, have mastered the TR grind, and seem to oppose alternative systems that other players may enjoy more than 1-20 like them.


    A XP banking system for TR lets capped characters stay at cap a while longer, and lets them enjoy the character they spent so much time building. Some builds only really shine at the higher levels, and they should not be forced into a system in order to increase their toons power (which is what many people want). The current system only reaches a certain portion of the player base.



    To quote you guys, you don't "HAVE" to bank XP at cap before TRing. Keep doing it the old way if you like. Let us who want to farm our XP at level cap (even if it is at a reduced rate) do so. Everyone is happy!
    Last edited by Delacroix21; 06-17-2013 at 11:25 PM.
    Making DDO a better game 1 post at a time!

    Triple EVERYTHING Completionist= Heroic 39/39, Iconic 12/12, Epic 36/36

  2. #1302

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    There will be 4 Iconic options with available PL's that stack X3. These also start at level 15. TR runs with these will get you up to 12 Iconic PL's and all (currently) 11 ED PL's without re-running any of the heroic classes.
    Aye that is my plan.


    And over the next two years, let us add these"

    Forgotten Gnome
    Island Kobold
    Lucky Halfling
    Drow of Lolth
    Assimitar of ???

  3. #1303

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    Twists, twists, twists, twists, twists...


    The happy bucket corn pail starts here.

  4. #1304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    When you TR, you may choose to plan your class and ED so they work well together; therefore, this aspect of your argument lacks relevance.
    And suggesting someone to TR into a class they either don't like to play or no longer need the past life feat for lacks complete relevance. How many times have you read in the forums that a player only plays melees because they don't like casters? How many times have you read that casters think melee play is mind-numbingly boring? So telling people that the way that they play the game isn't relevant is exactly the bossy-boss attitude that turns people off to any suggestions or opinions that you might have. What I stated is freakin' relevant because not all classes/builds are fun to play for all people. Players are as diverse as there are builds in the game.

  5. #1305
    Founder Raiderone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusCleardawn View Post
    Props Vargouille.

    As for maximizing good play experience, it seems we just disagree. I find absolutely nothing fun about running epic content "off destiny" that is to say being in a destiny that isn't appropriate to my class but necessary for grinding Fate Points or unlocking adjacent destinies more appropriate to my class. Doubly unfun if all that work gets nuked after it was stated it was permanent.

    .
    I hear this all the time from players in my guild! Like when folks were using Shears of Fate. Very boring running a toon in an adjacent destiny especially ones that add nothing to class...

    Make it that Bonded Epic Destiny remains active at full Tier while running adjacent destinies during Epic TR...

  6. #1306

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    I am kind of tired of level 18 heroic.

    Would like to see some banked xp reduce my stay there for the first ETR,
    then keep some to gloat over.


    While we are at it, maybe work on that xp spiral?
    Hey if we give up our fate spiral, you can tone down the xp spiral?

  7. #1307
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
    When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.
    That is acceptable.

    Why'd it take 60 pages of nerd-rage to get to this?

    This option would actually get people to level up to 28 before TRing.

  8. #1308

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
    When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.
    Oh, I totally missed reading this, so much new stuff.

    This has merit too if we are getting fate points bonuses attached to the epic destiny past lives.

    I assume when an ETR starts an Iconic life they still get the 15 bonus levels?
    Otherwise, I want nothing to do with this.

    Bear in mind again and again, its obvious to me the ED lvel cap will go up to 10
    within the next three years, so plan all your work now around this.

    Also, bear in mind, someday you might reconsider going past level 30,
    in which case this again has some merit to it.

  9. #1309
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    I am kind of tired of level 18 heroic.

    Would like to see some banked xp reduce my stay there for the first ETR,
    then keep some to gloat over.


    While we are at it, maybe work on that xp spiral?
    Hey if we give up our fate spiral, you can tone down the xp spiral?
    I would also like this addressed as well. It would be nice if TR XP penalties went away altogether. People would still buy plenty of XP pots etc. to get it done.
    Making DDO a better game 1 post at a time!

    Triple EVERYTHING Completionist= Heroic 39/39, Iconic 12/12, Epic 36/36

  10. #1310
    Community Member Xaxx's Avatar
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    You guys want player strait talk.. ok how is this.

    To EVERYONE who spent HOURS AND FLIPPIN MORE HOURS capping their ed's... this whole delete that 21 million xp is DDO's NGE.... period.

    You wanna *bank* the exp.. fine strip it and put it all into my character and i'll burn 5 more trs out of it... that fine... but to simply strip someone of 20+ mil exp and say woops sorry we told you we wouldn't do that but oh well we decided we would....

    HOMEY

    DON'T

    PLAY

    DAT

    Listen up and listen well bucko's... you guys almost killed this game with your near year of no content before f2p.... this... this whole rip off expansion that is NOT A FLIPPIN EXPANSION followed by even mentioning THIS amalgamation of complete and utter horse guts is an even WORSE idea than back then...

    You guys need to really understand the idea of carrot and stick better... the idea is not to give us a baby carrot (epic tring) and in the same post offer us a stick that superman, the hulk, spider man, elminster, raistlin, max roid barry bonds, and kendo the magic spider monkey from the planet hokedy permasium couldn't lift TO-FLIPPING-GETHER (bending us over by stripping us of 21 mil xp for a non epic tr)

    You want feed back, you want a strait answer out of your players there.... go ahead with your epic tr system, simply don't bend over all of us with some bs idea while doing it. Continue down that path, laugh at your player base and continue to do something JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK ITS A GOOD IDEA... see what happens to your lovely playing player base. I know that devs shouldn't always listen to players.. no way in hockey sticks... but when an idea .... or in the is general cast.... ONE SPECIFIC PART OF A BIG IDEA... is taken with such revultion... you may .. just MAY want to think about coming back with a better answer than double speak of *heres how we're still gonna nail ya, we're just gonna make it sound better."

    The only answer we need is... OK OK we get it, stripping you of epic xp on a heroic tr is a BAD idea, we get it we wont do it, now are you happy with the rest of the system.... really... ok then we'll get to work

    that above is the ONLY ANSWER WE NEED... now for once listen to the feedback you are getting, have your little inside dev chat, and poney up.

  11. #1311
    Community Member esheep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Complexity is inherently undesirable for corollaries such as this, in terms of designing the solution, making sure it covers all the bases, making sure all players understand it (including most players who never read the forums, let alone post), and of course actually implementing it... and implementing correctly. The more complicated it is the more likely there are bugs (or even perceived bugs, or just plain confusion, which impact enjoyment of DDO regardless).
    Yet I still see bizarre level restrictions for PUGs ... the average player could use some help determining what level ranges they can take in their quests without incurring penalties -- to make matters worse, it changes for epic level content.

    I'd been hoping when it was announced that the 'new' LFM system would've better accounted for such problems, but so far it seems like the 'old' system we had for the most part.


    Complexity is bad, but where it cannot be avoided (such as epic level ranges vs content), it might be a good idea to provide some form of guide for the less informed player.

  12. #1312
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    Actually "several" may be overstating when we are talking about maxing out all EDs. There is a good portion of players that focus on TR, and others that run only to cap picking up a couple ED's then roll an Alt. There are also casual players that don't play every week and take a very long time to take a character through content.

    There are a lot of things to consider when we are adding to a system like TR that impacts so many play styles. I don't expect we will be able to put all the detail into dev posts, but we are trying to respond to the things that are causing the most concern.
    While truly maxing the ED is max xp in all destinies.... getting to 4-2-1 twists is another version of maxing out. That is where I am. Yes, i'm back to adding more TR past lives right now. If my EDs go away... well, I've enjoyed the game. Best of luck to you.
    /sigh

  13. #1313
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    Absolutely incorrect. I would most certainly NOT plan to eTR into some unknown class for some unwanted unneeded heroic past life feat if my intention was to gain a wanted needed planned for epic PL feat. Again why hTR needs to be separate from eTR.
    Your lack of desire to coordinate a heroic class with a desired ED in no way invalidates my assertion.

    However, it does serve to make my point:
    Those who grind through an "off" destiny are not forced to do so; they choose to do so.
    http://myaccount.turbine.com

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  14. #1314
    The Hatchery samthedagger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xorm View Post
    I don't understand why the fuss, the solution is really easy, Leave heroic reincarnates as they are, and add in a new and improved Epic TR. If someone is level 28 with maxed destinys, and wants to TR the obtain a heroic TR. IF they WANT to get the epic TR past lives, then they go with the new Epic TR's. The Epic TR's could have the advantage of counting as both a Heroic and Epic TR. Simple enough in my mind.

    *prepares for the onslaught of backlash*
    I saw a dev post that TRs are complicated and that therefore this is not possible. What I have to wonder is: why? This would clearly make (almost) everyone happy. No new coding has to be done for existing TRs it seems. Why can't the new Epic TR system be coded separately? Glin, Pilloto, Vargouille, you guys are talking about complexity, but from a coding point of view this seems to be the simplest thing so far proposed. I'm not a game developer, but I know my way around computer coding. Why would anything in the proposed Epic TR system have to trigger anything in the old TR system that could possibly screw this up? Just leave the existing TR systems the way the are (which seems to have the bugs worked out of it at this point) and the only system subject to bugs would be the epic TR system. In this case, "buyer beware." Early users of the Epic TR system will simply have to accept that there might be bugs in it for quite a while (sorry, Turbine devs, but you guys don't have a great track record given the debacle with the last TR incident causing Epic Destiny XP being lost; you fixed it but it took many months to be resolved by which time many affected players had simply stopped playing out of frustration and well-deserved rage). But at least the existing systems which we know and love will continue to work as intended.

    If you are overhauling the entire TR system for some reason, then my mind is boggled as to why you would even consider such a thing. At this point I am tempted to say I don't even want an Epic TR system if this is the kind of brouhaha it is going to stir up. But really, what could be simpler than preserving existing TR systems and making Epic TR completely separate code-wise?

  15. #1315
    The Hatchery samthedagger's Avatar
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    sorry for double post

  16. #1316
    Community Member Oberon_Shrader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Hi.

    Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
    When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

    .
    Very similar to what I and many others suggested. Would actually like to see the flagged ED experience wiped, though. I think that's only fair for getting the feat and would require re-leveling it to get the same feat again (in the case that they stack like other PL feats).

    Go with this method and I think most people will be happy to Epic TR!

  17. #1317
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    Your lack of desire to coordinate a heroic class with a desired ED in no way invalidates my assertion.

    However, it does serve to make my point:
    Those who grind through an "off" destiny are not forced to do so; they choose to do so.
    Your assertion appears to be that others' play styles lack relevance. I have simply given an example based on personal experience which is mirrored by no small number of players. That's why your assertion is incorrect. The fact that we are being given a choice between two unwanted and unneeded game mechanics changes is no choice at all.

    edit: oh, and let me say, there are several reasons to NOT co-ordinate a heroic class with the desired eTR epic destiny. Twisted abilities being the most obvious. Again, it seems wasteful and counter productive to have to reach lvl 28, max an unwanted destiny, AND spend all that time in an unwanted class, just to gain a locked in destiny from which to twist in one or two wanted abilities. It's Chewbacca.
    Last edited by BOgre; 06-18-2013 at 12:29 AM.

  18. #1318
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon_Shrader View Post
    Very similar to what I and many others suggested. Would actually like to see the flagged ED experience wiped, though. I think that's only fair for getting the feat and would require re-leveling it to get the same feat again (in the case that they stack like other PL feats).

    Go with this method and I think most people will be happy to Epic TR!
    Well, yes and no. If Twists are preserved, yes. If eTR means starting at 20 (or possibly even 15 in order to simplify the iTR mechanic), then yes. If eTR means starting at 1, then a heroic PL feat should also be granted, then yes. If hTR has ZERO effect on EDXP/Twists, then yes. Failing any of those conditions, then no.

  19. #1319
    The Hatchery samthedagger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    If we can arrive at a place in a given system where we can accomplish all or many of the goals in a way that is good for the game, short term and long term, then that’s a great solution. Many systems, however, are of sufficient complexity to make this a very interesting balancing act. But even with that complexity, it’s still possible to have a good solution. It just takes some time and iteration to get there. This was one of the reasons to start this thread and see what people thought about the new system and the first design proposal.
    If simplicity is a preferred means of accomplishing changes to the game, what could be simpler than preserving the existing TR system as it is and implementing the new Epic TR system as a completely separate code block? Heroic TR works as it always has, preserving all ED XP and taking you back to level 1. Folks who want to earn Completionist before hitting epics can keep doing that. Epic TR is clearly for the folks who prefer Epic play so let them play epics. They lose all ED XP and go back to level 20 (letting them level as whatever class they want) plus having a past life feat for one ED that they have maxed out (which can be whichever ED they have active at the time of Epic TRing). Those going for "epic completionist" (may not be a feat associated with it, but just a term for those who want to have all 11 ED past life feats) can do this up to 11 times. Should be enough to keep people busy for a while. And if folks don't want to lose ED XP, they don't have to Epic TR.

    Simple.

    Edit: Make leveling from 20 to 28 such that it is about the same time as it takes to level from 1 to 20 for a Heroic TR. Hence the idea of using an Epic TR to change classes from say rogue20 to cleric20 then three days later Heroic TRing to get the cleric past life feat isn't necessarily more advantageous than just Heroic TRing as a rogue20 to cleric in your new life.

  20. #1320
    Community Member Zzevel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    This is unlikely because there's lots of other things we could do with that development time, which we suspect most players would prefer. It's still easy enough to find non-TR threads where players have plenty of other ideas we can work on. If implementing many options were quick, easy, and unlikely to generate bugs we'd consider it, but Reincarnation doesn't fall into that category, and reincarnation bugs are quite frustrating (for everyone).
    I'm pretty sure it's loud and clear nobody wants you to waste development time on Epic TR at all, we want you to fix the bugs and flesh out what you started.. things like Shaverath (there are three options on the planescaller where are the other two?), there are about 50 unfinished story lines... or crafting (there is a MILLION things to add in, heck combine all the crafting in the game into ONE good crafting tool), or even add in the missing prestige class we have waited 4 years for!.. why waste ANY time on something we do not want that CLEARLY alienates your player base? Like the enhancement pass NOBODY asked for it you simply want to make the change. My opinion: Fix bugs, release content, is a 5 year old game, quit trying to change the basics of the game, who asked for that? Seriously?. . . . . . . . . . . . If you must head strong into this what about a compromise? Heroic TR, keep it as it is...you go to level 1, keep epic xp exactly as it is!! In an Epic TR (ETR) you HAVE to hit level 28 to ETR, when you do you lock one MAXED ED, you now gain a past life in that ED. You become level 20 again with all ED levels/xp you previously had (bot ONLY one is locked, with you new LOCKED ED past life feet on the toon). (If you do not have all ED maxed), you can gain missing ED XP as you re-level to 28, when you get to 28 a SEDOND time, you lock a second maxed ED, now you have 2 ED past lives.. you ETR again you are level 20..... you can gain ED XP for destinies you don't have maxed... you get to 28 you lock a THIRD ED and gain a THIRD ED past life... when you lock all destinies you get an ED completionist feat like your heroic completionist feat...Keep TR and ETR separate and don't penalize people for what they earn, reward them fro getting from 1-28 and maxing a ED...
    Last edited by Zzevel; 06-18-2013 at 12:59 AM.

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