Heatherx Rgr12/Arti6/Rog2 (PL: 3 Wiz; 1 FvS; 2 Sor; 1 Clr; 1 Arti; 1 Rog)
Toryen Warchanter 22 ~ Treslyn Cleric 24 ~ Lohikaerme Druid 23 ~ Khenshii Monk 20
Heroes of Light and Darkness ~ Argonnessen
The XP ratio hasn't been stated nor determined for reasons you make obvious. This is one of those places where it doesn't even make sense for us to worry deeply about the numbers unless it's decided the idea in general could make any sense. (We know players always love seeing the numbers, but if we went in this direction we'd likely just going to go look at and see how much XP/minute players are actually getting at different levels to figure out a ratio. 1:1 isn't special. It could be 1:3 or 3:1 or pi:e:i.)
Another goal is allowing efficiently earning of heroic class-based past lives while playing epic content. Right now it's "wasteful" to play epic if your primary concern is past lives.
Another goal is to not make heroic reincarnation better than Epic Destiny reincarnation, making it still often "right" to do heroic reincarnation instead of ever playing epic. We of course expect that Epic Destiny reincarnation should be better in some way(s), because it's more effort to achieve it.
Fate Points: An example dive into some details
We are aware of concerns with Fate Points under any proposal. They are somewhat tricksy.
We could consider having characters "remember" how many they had. However, we don't consider it viable to let you gain more Fate Points as you regain Destiny XP (should we choose to go forward with any of proposal where any kind of XP is lost, whether from one destiny or many). That leads to infinite or at least "quite a lot" of Fate Points in the long run. That unfortunately means that if we simply blindly preserve your total but don't let you accumulate more until you would have more: The right thing to do is never TR until you have maxed out all Epic Destinies. We know that some players like to break up earning Destinies with reincarnation, and we would like to support that.
There are some corollary changes we could consider (a system where Destiny levels still earns more Fate Points up to the normal cap, for example) that might work, but the more complicated the proposal the less likely we are to want to use it. Complexity is inherently undesirable for corollaries such as this, in terms of designing the solution, making sure it covers all the bases, making sure all players understand it (including most players who never read the forums, let alone post), and of course actually implementing it... and implementing correctly. The more complicated it is the more likely there are bugs (or even perceived bugs, or just plain confusion, which impact enjoyment of DDO regardless).
This is just one example of topics we've discussed lately. Please don't take this as an indication that we're obviously going with something that causes Destiny XP loss because we've explored this. We're trying many other ideas on like hats, and trying to get it right from the start, exploring some issues now before we pick a single proposal or get near implementing anything. There's quite a lot of other topics brought up internally and on this thread that matter (both to us and to you!)
Love the recent communication from the Dev's.
I'm loving a good portion of the idea's on the table. I think you guys are getting on the right track. I'm not gonna over analyze your posts, because it is clear that we now have your ear and you are being flexible. The wait for a response was certainly worth it to get some of the info you have given.
To chime in my opinion on "investment" however.
I've only ever grabbed one, maybe one and a half, and as little as half an Epic Destiny tree per TR. I may not have EVERY ED maxed out, but just going at my own casual pace, I have filled a good portion of them up. Still less than halfway done, but I truly cherish all that work, and PLAN my ED experience gain around my Heroic TR paths.
I value this time I invested in my ED's. Mostly the Fate Points are what attract me. I also accept the fact that systems and code have their limits, even when you've had full control and say in it from day 1. You impress me constantly with the work you are able to do on the complex system you've reported to have.
In the end, the issue is taking away what was earned. It doesn't have to be a Max ED map to hurt you and make you feel invalidated. Let's face it, not very many people have JUST 1 ED ((But PLENTY do, some of my toons are only ever going to be 1 class and not feel the need for extra twist power)). And having MORE than 1 ED is what would hurt with the first option on the table, the "Lose all Epic ED experience upon TR."
It is most wise to plan for the pleasure of all the players despite their progress. But I fail to see how hurting the most dedicated players by wiping all their experience in ANY way makes the experience better for those with only 1 ED. In fact, in all ways it makes it worse. They don't have more powerful vet's to learn from, they have ANGRY fellow players who may be feeling cheated at a loss of progress questing with them, and build idea's and creativity will be suppressed because suddenly the plethora of Epic Destiny options people could have worked to have at their disposal, be it 3 ED's or all of them maxed, could be reduced to "You have only 2 Fate points and one ED tree".
I know you are in between a rock and a hard place. Change is needed, and a revamp of the system to bring in something new. I guess as a player, my question is why wasn't more room laid down for this with MoTu? Did you guys feel like Epic Destinies had no room to grow? Did you have no plans for how TRing would work when you rolled Epic Destinies out?
Why is it, you had to give a system to us one way, and then in order to mix it up, add to it, or change it at all you basically have to upend how the current system has worked completely up to this point. I don't have a GREAT memory, but I don't think it is often you have added something to the DDO store to help with your system (Keys, however bugged they may have been) only to take it away because only a year later you want to completely change it on it's face from what it was. ((I know Keys are gone for a different reason, but now their entire point would be a little useless))
But I am happy to see it doesn't HAVE to be this way. I see some great ideas floated by even the Dev's now, that take this whole thing in a direction that makes me happy and eager to play again, and maybe even fresh and interesting enough to try and bring in new players.
As it stands, I'm a little ashamed to introduce the game to anyone. Lots of "stop wiggling node" errors coming from my enemies, and please, believe me when I say lots of angry banter IN game from fellow players over their characters futures. Not a great environment to put new players in. ((But still better than some of the buggy conditions of Updates Past))
You've stirred the pot, now let's make some tasty soup.
Last edited by QuickSlick79; 06-17-2013 at 09:18 PM. Reason: Clarification, Typo fixing, nothing removed.
This is not far off from several suggestions. It's a VERY good change in direction.Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.
I'm almost afraid to make any suggestions in case it takes you away from this direction lol.
Although you haven't commented on it, I'm also assuming you will get a Heroic PL feat in the ETR (So for example if running a cleric life I get a cleric past life and then the PL from the ED I select). We wouldn't want to get just the epic one or it wouldn't probably be worth the effort for the payback.
Ah what the heck, not that I want the system to be more punitive, but if you ended up feeling that option 2 wasn't punitive enough, clearing the ED XP for the one destiny we are TRing would be consistent with what you did with heroic TR.
Now I'm assuming the above is all for ETR. For Heroic TR please just leave it as it is. It honestly works well for what it does now.
If this was really important to you for some marketing reason then I'd suggest 2 flavors of hearts. One that works closer to option 1 above and one that works closer to option 2 above. Yes, that's double the work (if not more) but its the only way you can really address that goal of yours without crippling TR for those who also want to pursue ED.
Last edited by Citzen_Gkar; 06-17-2013 at 09:21 PM.
To me, Epic Destiny experience isn't viewed as wasteful when my concern is Past Lives. Every Epic tree has something that could make any class better. And with the system you've given us, taking some time to level the next ED tree could mean my next TR has an even EASIER time when I get to Epic with HIS class. Or it means I get an ability that helps with my CURRENT class BEFORE I TR. It does ALWAYS mean I get more fate points to unlock more powerful options.
All of this is very enticing to me with your current system, and gives me plenty of reason to stay in Epic level range for a little while before I continue my TR journey.
That's why the first option laid out saddens me and makes me feel invalidated. I've planned with Epic Destinies in mind for my TR path. With option 1 on the table, you guys take out ALL the work I've put forth for Epic Level play. It makes me feel RESTRICTED to either Heroic or Epic, rather than happy to enjoy and gain from both worlds for as long as I see enjoyable.
Certainly other players have different play styles. I can see people getting right to 20 and then Tr'ing. And I see lots of people sticking around Epic content to enjoy that. Which I guess is why I'm confused. Lot's of people seem to feel happy with how things are, but eager to see an expansion on the systems. But instead, it feels like we are being offered a revamp and roll back to make changes "fair" or to work.
Again, no anger here. I am pleased as punch with the communication, and just trying to voice one players style of advancement and enjoyment in game.
A banked XP system is not terrible, except that I think you are still looking at ED TR backwards. The maxed and marked destiny you are TRing is the only one that should be reset. This mirrors the current heroic TR system and makes sense logically. You gain a feat in that destiny's flavor, at the cost of having to re-level that destiny. Granting XP stones (or however you plan to work that) that can then only be used in heroic levels is counter intuitive at best. Heroic XP is just not what we feel is the real Grind in the system. Moreover, if TRing at lvl28 and being sent to lvl 1 is your plan, then both an ED past life feat AND a heroic past life feat should be granted. Otherwise Epic TR should only send you back to level 20. This way, Heroic TR can remain more or less unchanged, in that completionists and others looking for heroic PL feats can maintain their current system. Logical.
As for optimizing towards a "good" play experience, this should be crystal clear: more content. Please do not mistake Reincarnation for content. Reincarnation is a purely optional way for players to trade time for "slightly" more character power. It is a time sink (which is not inherently a bad thing), but it should never attempt to replace content (which IS inherently a GOOD thing). And by content I do mean more high level quests, raids, and explorer areas. Ideally you'd like to have "End Game" equal to a VERY re-playable, very fun, and long-term-rewarding experience. That probably means handing out a wide variety of highly sought items, such as both low and high level augments, tradeable scrolls, seals, shards for old epic crafting, infact ALL kinds of crafting materials from all over the game's history, like Shroud materials, Scales, Alchemical stuff, etc. And of course All should be BtA, NO BTC.
At this point in the game you should be aware that there is NO shortage of low level content. There is more than enough XP to level and cap. ALL future content development should be targeted squarely at end-game players, giving them the option to NOT TR, and still have fun.
*Casual - I feel play only on the weekend and sometimes don't play every week depending on their time constraints, many of them like cool gear but are not very focused on it as they know they don't really have the time for it etc. I have many like this in my guild some have lots of nice gear and some have quite a few past live but then many have been playing since 2006. Many of these suffer from altitis and follow certain builds but very loosely
*casual/hardcore - We have some like these in my guild (myself included) we have more time to play the game but sometimes take mini breaks due to RL, we can play everyday for 2 weeks several hours a day but then not have time to play for a couple weeks. Sometimes we can play everyday for a couple months etc it all varies depending on our time constraints. Many of us have a more focused playstyles than say the "casual". We have a specific build and many of us have a TR "plan".We like min/maxing but are maybe not the top experts at it.
We often like to spread out our area of play. When we TR we WANT to play the lower levels, when we get into epic levels and endgame we want to play there for awhile and not have our efforts be wasted time. I myself like to do at least 20 abbot runs per endgame/TR. We however can take some time doing this as we often "pug it".
*hardcore - These are the ones you know and tend to be quite vocal. They have specific build that they run with specific goals in mind, they often are very very good at min/maxing and multi-classing. Many dislike to remain at lower level very long, like TR zerg runs and 37hr to one week TRs etc etc you get the type.
All these group deserve to play as it pleases them within the rules Turbine themselves set forth with a reasonable expectation of not being penalized by Turbine for playing in such a way.
I myself am in the casual/hardcore category so forgive me if I say I feel you are way way off base when you say, "Actually "several" may be overstating when we are talking about maxing out all EDs"
Look at my main characters Epic Destinies, I did some RB farming but very little as I find it mind numbingly boring. I do love to do raids though and made sure in my previous TR to avoid most I would run endgame and thereby avoiding repeat penalties. I also did quite a bit of gear farming. Then TR when I got tired of it.
Don't you think if I have this all done in a casual/hardcore manner when I have been on hiatus from DDO since I have been in Neverwinter alphas and betas testing it and seeing what they do in OB you may be rather understating how much peeps have invested in the ED? Also consider my wife, with whom I play as we duo everything (except raids), were about to start playing DDO as our main game again (since Neverwinter is going live soon and we don't care for the game-play or the direction the game is going in) but when I looked in the forums to see what was up this really killed both our intentions of playing.
I mean whats the point if come U20 all our progress is going to go down the drain? Heh all this after swallowing we are going to be pushed into cookie cutter builds with the enhancement pass.
Banking XP is not a terrible idea but there's a large amount of people for whom this does nothing and is outright undesirable.
option one must be a no vote from me with a yes for option 2
Again I refer you to this post
Last edited by SilkofDrasnia; 06-17-2013 at 10:17 PM.
Originally Posted by CordovanOriginally Posted by Jendrak
The sudden "out in force" response is interesting, safe to say you guys have heard how disenfranchised many DDO forum goers feel lately.
I'd really like to see something similar with the Enhancement pass post alpha... The angst over this Epic TR issue is concentrated on one focal point (losing hard earned ED's)... the Pass has so many focal points so many things going on that I feel despite appearances, that the "angst" over it was actually bigger, and more unanimous, but it was "Protector sucks", "lack of cleric domains sucks" and "Spell singer temp SP procs sucks" and "Having to use a shield to get anything from DOS/Stalwart sucks" and etc over almost every tree.
TR'ing is a big part of the game for many, but for me personally (and I'm sure some significant portion of the player base) it's character builds I don't have the time for TR's. For that reason the Pass is more important to me personally... Would love to see some similar dialog... not just statements but dialog in the beta phase.
Like you guys know that 2 small changes and almost no builds would "break" right? AP spent in tree change back to AP spent overall (as live), and take all the old "generic" enhancement lines and put them in the generic tree, instead of splitting them up arbitrarily into PrE trees. The key word is arbitrary... Arbitrary is almost always bad if there's an alternative, and a fourth "basic enhancement tree" is an easy alternative.
Sorry for the derail but being honest I'm a little jealous of the response TR'ing has gotten compared to the overwhelming silence of the post-Alpha enhancement pass.
Since English isn't my first language, I'll give a little example to make it clearer:
GRUNT does a barbarian life and levels LD to rank 3 and FotW to rank 5. He TRs and can see he has those max ranks in those destinies. During this new life, he levels LD to rank 2 (from 0 again) and PA to rank 5. When he TRs again, he will see the following max ranks: LD 3, FotW 5, PA 5.
Last edited by Feithlin; 06-17-2013 at 10:06 PM.
Thelanis: Nassim* (F12/P6/M2) - Talienor** (P18/Ra2) - Feithlin** (F12/Bd7/C1) - Stoneoak* (F12/M6/P2) - Hokusai (M17/F2/C1) - Ardence* (Bd15/F3/Ro2) - Matsushiro* (Ro11/M6/P3) | Argonessen: Luneargent (W18/Ro2) - Talienor (Ro20) - Takshir (Bd16/F2/Ro2) - Hiacynthe (C20) | Ghallanda: A bunch of pre DDO Unlimited characters (field of testing for post U19 )
Whatever mining system you're using to give you that data is way off. That or you're interpreting it wrong. Please don't make the mistake of underestimating people's perceived investment in your game.
This is my reasoning:
Epic TR is coming, some will use it some won't, I plan on using it.
That means I'm planing on leveling up to 28 multiple times.
We don't know what the remapping of the xp curve will look like, but right now 20-25 takes 3 million xp. Capping a destiny takes 2/3 this amount. What ever the number ends up for 20-28, if I'm in an uncapped destiny while leveling I gain destiny xp at the same time. If all my destines are caped I just gain the epic levels I'm planing on turning in when I TR anyway. The idea of banking some xp to bootstrap my next 1-20 at the same time I'm leveling 20-28 doesn’t sound like such a bad deal.
It would also give me the option of lingering at end game if I want, without feeling like I'm falling behind on my long range TR goals.
I understand that 20-28 will be easier and faster with maxed destines and twists, and I know all too well what a pain it is to level a destiny that doesn't fit your character, but long term planing and optimization is part of the complexity that makes ddo interesting and fun. Planing out an epic TR path is just another example.
Its nice that you have worked your way up to have 20 developers reporting to you. When I was but a lad of 30, I had 155 world class developers (spread across 2 US states and Japan) taking design guidance from me. I'll be happy to compare notes, when you catch up. By the way, that was over 20 years ago. You probably need to start running faster.
Do you play DDO at work? I admit, I really don't know what an "Uber completionist" is, but it sounds really time consuming.
At any rate whatever you do with the mechanics of the game in the future make them set in stone. Stick to one set of rules. Considering that you are making sweeping game changes on all levels you are rewriting the game's player's handbook so to speak and once done that is hopefully going to be the set of rules that we will all be living by no matter the whining and calls for nerfs or changes. I wish you the best of luck and foresight as you venture into uncharted waters.
- retain current system
- available at level 20+
- all character xp will be lost (back to level 1)
- no loss of Epic Destiny xp
- +2 build point (up to 36pt)
- gain passive past life feat
- same system as Heroic TR system but available only at level cap (28)
- all character xp will be lost (back to level 1)
- no loss of Epic Destiny xp
- +2 build point (up to 38pt)
- gain passive past life feat (same one as Heroic TR)
- purchaseable past life feat is now auto-granted at level 3 (cannot/need not be purchased anymore)
Epic Destiny Bonding
- no loss of character xp (a level 28 remains 28)
- available for any capped Epic Destiny (1.98m xp)
- choose a capped Epic Destiny to bond
- all xp in that Epic Destiny is lost (back to level 0 in that bonded destiny)
- that Epic Destiny is now "bonded"
- back to level 0 in that Epic Destiny
- leveling thru a "bonded" ED requires more xp every rank (eg. 1st rank at 48K instead of 32k)
- +2 points to spend in bonded ED (2 pts available at level 0)
- Fate points not lost from loss of ED levels but regaining levels in bonded ED will also not give more Fate points
Epic Destiny Completionist
- bonding all available EDs grant passive ED completionist feat (granted at level 20)
At level 28 (cap lv, so when the cap goes up, the requirement for this will as well) you can Epic-TR, which will grant a past life feat for your class (as normal), as well as allow you to choose one maxed out Destiny (or more, perhaps up to 3?), reset the XP for that(those), and grant ED feat(s) depending on that. Other destiny XP remains the same.
This way you still get your Epic True reincarnation which gives both an epic and heroic past life feat, and players loose only the Epic Destiny XP they want to loose.
Also, does there need to be a special 'iconic reincarnation' mechanic? Why not just make it so that any True reincarnation will bring you to the character creation screen and allow you to make your Icon character just like a first time-creation? I am in favor, however, of giving Icons their own special past-life feat, and only letting them Epic TR.
Because DDO content is created by hand, some issues cannot be fixed with a global change. We must fix these issues one-by-one by hand with the help of bug reports. This includes:
Ladder issues: please include the /loc when reporting a ladder issue
I would not do an Epic TR if it is option 1.
I think Heroic should be separate from Epic. They are now, lets keep it that way. Heroic XP is easy to get. I can solo to 15 or just grab the first 6 people and go on Elite BB. After that I might go to Hard BB or actually be picky about groups and stick with E BB.
Grinding out ED XP in an ED that has nothing for your class is not fun at all. I don't care about the potential XP/min. I spent about 10 months after MOTU came out grinding ED XP, not going to do that again.
I think ED XP should be kept separate from Epic XP and if you Epic TR you just do Epic levels 20-28 over. Have a separate ED TR where you do them one at a time.
If we can't have that, then I could accept Option 2. Not perfect but I would consider doing it.
Conn Niall Paladin 20 TRx2
Cormac Mac Airt Ranger/Rogue 12/1
Connyl Niall Paladin 1 Connlyssa Paladin/Fighter 18/2
Wow. love seeing the dev interaction. Keep it up.
On your proposals. Proposal 2 for me is a no brainer. Losing all my ed xp is not an option. I really would like to see twists kept as well. So much grind was put into this that th though of losing this makes me ill.
As far as easing the tr grind why wont you just fix xp in the 18-20 range. If you made cannith, amarath iq the riddle an murder by night viable xp like 3 times what they are now people would be ecstatic. Your refusal and silence on this is ridiculous. And its an easy fix. We saw how you just turned off eveningstar challenge xp with the push of a button. Why not jus t turn on xp in the 18-20 range. EVERYONE WOULD BE HAPPY WITH THIS. I dont think a single person that plays th game would complain about this.
Vote proposal 2.
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