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  1. #1221
    Community Member darkrune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    More to come soon™
    FTFY

    Seriously though thanks for listening (or at least pretending to to the short term)!
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  2. #1222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    The team has been having some further design discussions, based on feedback from this thread. It seems important to state - they recognize that several players are already very invested in Epic Destinies, this was absolutely part of the early design discussions. There are a couple Epic game-play solutions in debate that we’ll be sharing with you as well. There won’t be any flash decisions made as design changes are considered, between posts we will be spending a lot of time reviewing the many directions the system can take players, as we are a few months away from starting development.

    Thank you for sharing your feedback, reactions and ideas with us. More to come soon, and I'd expect, over the coming weeks as well.

    ~Erik
    @producerglin
    Thanks for this update! It is really appreciated. The fact you said this is several months from actually starting development makes me feel a lot better, too, because your thread-starting post made it seem like this was in the pipeline already and well on its way. Watch out, though: Keep this up and I might have to resubscribe!

  3. #1223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    The team has been having some further design discussions, based on feedback from this thread. It seems important to state - they recognize that several players are already very invested in Epic Destinies, this was absolutely part of the early design discussions. There are a couple Epic game-play solutions in debate that we’ll be sharing with you as well. There won’t be any flash decisions made as design changes are considered, between posts we will be spending a lot of time reviewing the many directions the system can take players, as we are a few months away from starting development.

    Thank you for sharing your feedback, reactions and ideas with us. More to come soon, and I'd expect, over the coming weeks as well.

    ~Erik
    @producerglin
    The only thing worse than forcing through this system would have been rushing to create a system to replace it that was even worse. All I ask from my own perspective is that we get a chance to say something about whatever options the team is considering before it goes in to production. There should be enough feedback here (with varying levels of rage involved) to give the development team an idea of where the most active forumites mindset is at least if not the majority of DDO players. I'm definitely looking forward to some solutions that make everyone happy (or at least happier than they are now).
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  4. #1224
    Community Member Towrn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    The team has been having some further design discussions, based on feedback from this thread. It seems important to state - they recognize that several players are already very invested in Epic Destinies, this was absolutely part of the early design discussions. There are a couple Epic game-play solutions in debate that we’ll be sharing with you as well. There won’t be any flash decisions made as design changes are considered, between posts we will be spending a lot of time reviewing the many directions the system can take players, as we are a few months away from starting development.

    Thank you for sharing your feedback, reactions and ideas with us. More to come soon, and I'd expect, over the coming weeks as well.

    ~Erik
    @producerglin
    Glin:

    Thanks for replying and for stating that this is not even in development yet. There have been so many good ideas thrown around in this thread.

    Please don't lose any more credibility with the DDO faithful. Please listen to us and give us something that we can look forward to continue paying and playing for.

    I have said since the game's third week, I will be here until you guys turn out the lights, but not all feel this way. Don't make us lose any more Vets OR new players.

    Take your good concept and re-work it with the player base's help and make it good content.

    Please and Thank You!
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  5. #1225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    The team has been having some further design discussions, based on feedback from this thread. It seems important to state - they recognize that several players are already very invested in Epic Destinies, this was absolutely part of the early design discussions. There are a couple Epic game-play solutions in debate that we’ll be sharing with you as well. There won’t be any flash decisions made as design changes are considered, between posts we will be spending a lot of time reviewing the many directions the system can take players, as we are a few months away from starting development.

    Thank you for sharing your feedback, reactions and ideas with us. More to come soon, and I'd expect, over the coming weeks as well.

    ~Erik
    @producerglin
    Thanks for posting but you certainly said a whole bunch of nothing with a whole bunch of words.

    I'd also be keen to rephrase "several players are already very invested in ED's" into "Most if not all players are already very invested in ED's". They have after all been out for over a year.

  6. #1226
    Community Member Tharlak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    The team has been having some further design discussions, based on feedback from this thread. It seems important to state - they recognize that several players are already very invested in Epic Destinies, this was absolutely part of the early design discussions. There are a couple Epic game-play solutions in debate that we’ll be sharing with you as well. There won’t be any flash decisions made as design changes are considered, between posts we will be spending a lot of time reviewing the many directions the system can take players, as we are a few months away from starting development.

    Thank you for sharing your feedback, reactions and ideas with us. More to come soon, and I'd expect, over the coming weeks as well.

    ~Erik
    @producerglin
    Glin, thanks for the response and at least the willingness to bring these types of changes up early to the community.

    But I need to ask. Why are you making these changes? Certainly this is not a "Hey, I bet the players would like to get an epic feat in exchange for all their farmed ED XP" kind of thought that you are putting out there. There is a "problem" for Turbine that you are trying to solve.

    I did not read all the post in the last 60+ pages, but read quite the number. Folks are of course theorizing why Turbine is doing this, and conspiracy theories certainly develop. So why not skip past all that and let us know what the issue is that is driving you towards these systems.

    Again, it's clear that this is not being done because the players want it. If that was the case the responses from the Turbine team would have been more in line with "What?!? You don't want to lose all your ED XP. Ok, we won't do this then, we were just trying to help." Also, every statement that came after the initial was about modifying what the trade off would be for the loss of all the ED XP. So at the end you, Turbine, feel it's necessary that all ED XP is removed. So, can you tell us why? Are you trying to increase the amount of epics being run, or dissuade TRing, or reduce the power from twists, or...

    If we know the why, not just a guess, perhaps we could shape our comments better. Or at least understand the path you are on.
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  7. #1227
    DDO Senior Producer Glin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    I'd also be keen to rephrase "several players are already very invested in ED's" into "Most if not all players are already very invested in ED's". They have after all been out for over a year.
    Actually "several" may be overstating when we are talking about maxing out all EDs. There is a good portion of players that focus on TR, and others that run only to cap picking up a couple ED's then roll an Alt. There are also casual players that don't play every week and take a very long time to take a character through content.

    There are a lot of things to consider when we are adding to a system like TR that impacts so many play styles. I don't expect we will be able to put all the detail into dev posts, but we are trying to respond to the things that are causing the most concern.
    ---------------
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  8. #1228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    The team has been having some further design discussions, based on feedback from this thread. It seems important to state - they recognize that several players are already very invested in Epic Destinies, this was absolutely part of the early design discussions. There are a couple Epic game-play solutions in debate that we’ll be sharing with you as well. There won’t be any flash decisions made as design changes are considered, between posts we will be spending a lot of time reviewing the many directions the system can take players, as we are a few months away from starting development.

    Thank you for sharing your feedback, reactions and ideas with us. More to come soon, and I'd expect, over the coming weeks as well.

    ~Erik
    @producerglin
    Thank you for the reply. I am looking forward to a more substantial reply from the team within a few days - you can hardly afford not to.

  9. #1229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    The team has been having some further design discussions, based on feedback from this thread. It seems important to state - they recognize that several players are already very invested in Epic Destinies, this was absolutely part of the early design discussions. There are a couple Epic game-play solutions in debate that we’ll be sharing with you as well. There won’t be any flash decisions made as design changes are considered, between posts we will be spending a lot of time reviewing the many directions the system can take players, as we are a few months away from starting development.

    Thank you for sharing your feedback, reactions and ideas with us. More to come soon, and I'd expect, over the coming weeks as well.

    ~Erik
    @producerglin
    Thanks for the update. I'm guessing there's some script that you can run to extract data on character ED levels to compile some stats on the actual impact this would have on active characters? Total ED levels, number of capped destines, which are active?

    Hopefully the highlighted section won't mean that we will have a lot of time between updates on this? I think most people would consider it extremely useful if we could get some feedback on things that have been revised or taken off the table completely. The main ones for me have to be:
    1. Heroic TRing should not affect ED XP in any way at all, can you let us know if at some point this gets agreed by the design team?
    2. You stated that you need an unbonded ED to Epic TR, but that only allows for 11 Epic TRs, will this be revised so that you can Epic TR at level cap regardless of whether you have an unbonded ED and still pick up the relevant Past Life Feats?
    3. You will be able to Epic TR into an Iconic character, when you then cap that character, will you be able to Epic TR it again and pick up an Iconic Past Life Feat and an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat, and Epic TR into another Iconic character?

    I understand that things are not set in stone and that any answers given are subject to change, but if at some point we could get clarity on these three issues, I think a lot of the current concern and drama would disappear.

  10. #1230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    Actually "several" may be overstating when we are talking about maxing out all EDs. There is a good portion of players that focus on TR, and others that run only to cap picking up a couple ED's then roll an Alt. There are also casual players that don't play every week and take a very long time to take a character through content.

    There are a lot of things to consider when we are adding to a system like TR that impacts so many play styles. I don't expect we will be able to put all the detail into dev posts, but we are trying to respond to the things that are causing the most concern.
    That's actually encouraging to hear. Allowing players to retain their Epic Destiny XP through Heroic TRing would allow these people to build them up over time and over multiple lives if that is what they choose to do.

    Not changing the current Heroic TR system would definitely be the lowest impact and at the same time the most popular solution.

    If It Aint Broke ... Occam's Razor .... KISS Principle ... all apply

  11. #1231
    Community Member Dhalgren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    Actually "several" may be overstating when we are talking about maxing out all EDs. There is a good portion of players that focus on TR, and others that run only to cap picking up a couple ED's then roll an Alt. There are also casual players that don't play every week and take a very long time to take a character through content.

    There are a lot of things to consider when we are adding to a system like TR that impacts so many play styles. I don't expect we will be able to put all the detail into dev posts, but we are trying to respond to the things that are causing the most concern.
    I don't believe we need to talk about maxing out all EDs in order to be talking about being "very invested".

    I certainly have not maxed them all out, but I do have quite a bit of time and energy invested in the system and would be very upset to see that lost for the sake of a heroic TR.
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  12. #1232
    Community Member MarcusCleardawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    ....

    We are also making balance changes to compensate for the fact that the system goes into higher levels, and we expect that parts of the design summary will seem less harsh once these details are better understood. We’ll be reading discussion in this thread and will continue to post here with more details as we go (such as details regarding Fate Points, Completionist, and the exact effects of turning in your Epic Destiny xp on your new life).
    Forgive the truncation, but the underlined part is a concern that I think not yet addressed. "Balance changes" are pretty ominous and are very important in answering the question "what should epic past life feats be" and "what compensation is enough?"

    Once upon a time, +1 to hit was a relevant buff, now it's not even a rounding error. +1 to hit when it was a full 5% bonus was a real thing, now +1 to hit is less than 1%.

    Once upon a time, +3 armor class was a huge deal (why else would people grind the Titan raid except for the chattering ring? and why now it's hardly ever run and many new players don't even know it exists), now not so much.

    What form will these "balance changes" take? Hard to kill? The changes to metamagics/introduction of spellpower? The "new combat system"/everyone has some armor class, but most damage mitigation is from displacement clickies and ghostly items anyway regardless of build, class, or other equipment? The wounding of puncturing nerf? The current caster situation where it seems only Shiradi casters are at all viable because Wail is still broken, the current critical spell chance, implement spellpower bug, sky high saves of mobs, and the great proliferation of spell resistance and evasion?

    For my other .02 plat, I will never do the sphere unlocking grind again.

  13. #1233
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    The team has been having some further design discussions, based on feedback from this thread. It seems important to state - they recognize that several players are already very invested in Epic Destinies, this was absolutely part of the early design discussions. There are a couple Epic game-play solutions in debate that we’ll be sharing with you as well. There won’t be any flash decisions made as design changes are considered, between posts we will be spending a lot of time reviewing the many directions the system can take players, as we are a few months away from starting development.

    Thank you for sharing your feedback, reactions and ideas with us. More to come soon, and I'd expect, over the coming weeks as well.

    ~Erik
    @producerglin
    Translation: kiss your EDs goodbye on heroic TR.

  14. #1234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    Actually "several" may be overstating when we are talking about maxing out all EDs. There is a good portion of players that focus on TR, and others that run only to cap picking up a couple ED's then roll an Alt. There are also casual players that don't play every week and take a very long time to take a character through content.

    There are a lot of things to consider when we are adding to a system like TR that impacts so many play styles. I don't expect we will be able to put all the detail into dev posts, but we are trying to respond to the things that are causing the most concern.
    OK, except you are again missing the forest for the trees, so to speak. You do not have to have max'd all destinies to be considered "very invested" in destinies.

  15. #1235
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    Actually "several" may be overstating when we are talking about maxing out all EDs. There is a good portion of players that focus on TR, and others that run only to cap picking up a couple ED's then roll an Alt. There are also casual players that don't play every week and take a very long time to take a character through content.

    There are a lot of things to consider when we are adding to a system like TR that impacts so many play styles. I don't expect we will be able to put all the detail into dev posts, but we are trying to respond to the things that are causing the most concern.
    Point blank: are you still intending on blanking out ED XP on heroic TR?

    We'll take a non-answer as a "yes."

    Our reply will be to never TR again.

    And maybe try some straight talk for a a change? You're not that good at corporate double-speak.
    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 06-17-2013 at 05:32 PM.

  16. #1236
    Community Member Atremus's Avatar
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    I think this is the first time that we have been able to collaborate on a game system without having it forced onto the players. Please be awesome Glin
    Characters: Celemia / Tukson / Thau (Broken link) / Atremus

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  17. #1237
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    The team has been having some further design discussions, based on feedback from this thread. It seems important to state - they recognize that several players are already very invested in Epic Destinies, this was absolutely part of the early design discussions. There are a couple Epic game-play solutions in debate that we’ll be sharing with you as well. There won’t be any flash decisions made as design changes are considered, between posts we will be spending a lot of time reviewing the many directions the system can take players, as we are a few months away from starting development.

    Thank you for sharing your feedback, reactions and ideas with us. More to come soon, and I'd expect, over the coming weeks as well.

    ~Erik
    @producerglin
    Several players are very invested in epic destinies? Update 20 should hit A YEAR AND A HALF after their release. Everyone that purchased them is invested in some form or another. I've done my destinies over multiple TR lives, and while I don't have any character with maxxed out destinies, I have 1 that's at 46/55 levels, one at 42/55 levels, and a couple more that have 15+. How can we not be invested?

    The entire Destiny system is not sustainable nor scalable. You're raising the cap from level 25 to 28, but the Destiny enhancement system is still capped at 6 tiers that peak before the level cap. The actual levels provide little power per the destiny design. Either a character stagnates through the final levels or takes a drop in efficacy to progress another destiny in the pursuit of Fate Points.

    The future difference between a today's level 25 character and Update 19 or 20's level 28 characters is One Feat, and +2 to-hit. Completely underwhelming.


    Just like the only "technical limitation" in providing more inventory space is not a limitation on lists, dictionaries, resultsets, sort algorithms or any data-type; but on the UI's presentation. The Enhancement pass and Destiny trees are the major limitation on extending the system.

    So, Next year when you want to raise the level cap again... what will you do?

  18. #1238

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    Actually "several" may be overstating when we are talking about maxing out all EDs. There is a good portion of players that focus on TR, and others that run only to cap picking up a couple ED's then roll an Alt. There are also casual players that don't play every week and take a very long time to take a character through content.

    There are a lot of things to consider when we are adding to a system like TR that impacts so many play styles. I don't expect we will be able to put all the detail into dev posts, but we are trying to respond to the things that are causing the most concern.
    I TR a lot (1 character), I have barely even touched Eveningstar, not with my 25 Monk Life, 25 FvS Life, 25 Druid Life, 25 Druid/monk, and I doubt my 25 Sorc/Monk Life will touch most of Eveningstar. I do like the idea of other Past Life Feats and look forward to making a Bladeforged Iconic Char (I don't own Warforged) as well as the Iconic Elf. That being said I have spent sometime going through the ED spheres and building my Twists (Yes I bought the Tome as well). I would prefer to not have to make that trek again Exalted Angel to Shirardi is not that fun. Playing levels 1~8 on a TR are fun, would 4~8 be better maybe, but then I would have ZERO NEED FOR A MASTER GIFT AUGMENT.

  19. #1239
    Community Member magn0liafan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    And we won't.

    Ever.

    And Turbine will never get any more money from us for hearts and XP pots.

    Please tell me again how this idea isn't the stupidest thing since New Coke?
    I don't know man... Crystal Pepsi was pretty stupid...
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  20. #1240
    The Hatchery Hutoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    • Several players have maxed out all EDs.
    • There is a good portion of players that focus on TR,
    • others run only to cap picking up a couple ED's then roll an Alt.
    • There are also casual players that don't play every week and take a very long time to take a character through content.
    I've been unlocking as many destinies as possible, and have maxed only a few across several toons, while unlocking whole swathes of them (taking to levels 3 & 4). AND I like TR'ing. Where do I fit in this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    There are a lot of things to consider when we are adding to a system like TR that impacts so many play styles.
    "Adding to" the system?
    You're adding a new Type of Reincarnation.
    Don't change the existing ones: Epic TR doesn't screw up Lesser and Greater Reincarnation, so why must it screw up True Reincarnation?
    Just add the new Epic TR and leave the existing Heroic TR alone. End of problem, thread shrinks by 90%.
    Last edited by Hutoth; 06-17-2013 at 06:04 PM.
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