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  1. #1201

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    Quote Originally Posted by kinggartk View Post
    With that being said, the one real dev reply on this subjuect seemed to point out that losing destinies during heroic TR was an important feature of the new TR system.
    Masterly of the English language takes a life time.
    Reread his post carefully. I had to reread it before I saw this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation...

    and not getting enough in return.....

    Later on, he does not say we will be doing thus, but simply:

    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR
    Indicating that things are being considered.

    I know its a bit hard to see, but it has taken me many years to learn to write,
    and still multiple rewriting to get a solid copy.

  2. #1202

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    Ok, a bit of insight on how these things work without saying more than I can.

    The gods have seen that our paths have strayed from the ancient text.

    The gods have sent holy decrees to mankind.
    High priest Glin showed us the gilded leaves.

    Our riot has got the gods attention.
    Please villagers watch your language but keep your pitchforks handy.

    The gods of DDO are watching.
    Glin cannot do anything that these gods will not allow.

    It takes time for Glin to communicate back and forth with the gods.

    It takes time to speak in godesse.
    The gods ponder, but anything worth saying is best spoken in godesse.


    Already the gods stir, you can feel it deep in the soil of eberron...
    Quoting myself cause well, because, but...

    Anyway, time to do other stuff, thanks for listening everyone.

  3. #1203
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    Nice one, Silver.

    Welcome all to Monday morning. It will probably take the devs most of today (and maybe some of tomorrow) to go through all these pages, discuss the content among themselves, and then formulate something worth saying.

    Patience can be nice. Give them time to rev back up from their weekend.
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  4. #1204
    Community Member Permian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    Masterly of the English language takes a life time.
    Reread his post carefully. I had to reread it before I saw this:
    Thank you very much for my new signature I couldn't resist. It






    is






    AWESOME!!
    Abamf|Skwat|Baucas Thelanis - Renowned

  5. #1205
    Uber Uber Completionist
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post
    If you feel threatened by my objective assessments of how Turbine is failing to handle the game on multiple levels, I would suggest that you find an alternate venue to work through those feelings. Or, you can bicker at me endlessly all day in this thread. You should not, however, expect that I will reciprocate endlessly, as I have a life outside of this game and my self image is not tied to this game. These are goals which you might want to consider for yourself.
    Your objectionable assessments are noted. I can only repeat to you the same mantra that I repeat to the developers who report to me - "Don't come to me with your problems, come to me with your solutions.". Now that may seem harsh but when you have 20 developers who, like your good self are very clever and erudite individuals, you encourage them to do a bit of thinking for themselves before they come to you with a problem. This way, at least they come to you with something like a potential solution whether you agree with it or not. Simply turning up at my door and telling me that you're stuck is a non-starter. Likewise when I read pointless criticism with no alternatives on the forums it rubs me the wrong way. Maybe that demonstrates a lack of patience on my part.

    But be sure that I'll give your life advice all of the time that it deserves, and I'm delighted to hear that you do not need validation based on your leisure activities. If I ever find myself sinking to these levels of low self-esteem, I'll be sure to think on you and give myself a shake. After all, if such lofty goals work for you then who's to say who else this wisdom may help.

    Have we advanced the discussion any?

  6. #1206
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    A little off-topic but my suggestion for past life feats would be the following:
    1) Completionist should shift to a free feat. If the dev's want they could put this in the next time everyone has to TR to re-earn the Completionist feat.
    2) Either the third or fourth copy of a past life would grant the active feat as an automatic feat. I would set it to third but if the dev's are uncomfortable with that then a fourth would be acceptable as well. Or even an epic TR...one epic TR would, on the heroic end, grant the active past life feat as an auto-grant.

    Just a couple ideas off the top of my head to both avoid power creep, reward more grind, and depending on the route Turbine took possibly give a reason to epic TR.
    Tajawuka 20 Bladeforged Paladin running divine ETR's (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's, 3 martial epl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  7. #1207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    A little off-topic but my suggestion for past life feats would be the following:
    1) Completionist should shift to a free feat. If the dev's want they could put this in the next time everyone has to TR to re-earn the Completionist feat.
    2) Either the third or fourth copy of a past life would grant the active feat as an automatic feat. I would set it to third but if the dev's are uncomfortable with that then a fourth would be acceptable as well. Or even an epic TR...one epic TR would, on the heroic end, grant the active past life feat as an auto-grant.

    Just a couple ideas off the top of my head to both avoid power creep, reward more grind, and depending on the route Turbine took possibly give a reason to epic TR.
    While it's important to promote re-playability it is also to remember an account for the negative effects of power creep. Giving completionists 13 new free (active) feats would further push the upper reaches of the game, setting the standards for top content even harder and therefore further out of reach of average players, much less new players, which in turn discourages new players from joining/staying when they realize how far behind they are the curve and how long it will take to catch up. This needs to be considered when adding any new TR mechanics as well. Retaining loyal customers is important, but so is attracting and retaining new customers.

    But I appreciate your line of thought!

  8. #1208
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    Default My 2 copper

    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    What a load of hyperbolic nonsense. It doesn't 'kill the game' for them. I'm exactly one of those types of players who likes to earn a few EDs per life and it certainly wouldn't 'kill the game' for me in any way, I'd just plan things out differently.


    When will posters realize that the threats, hyperbole, and melodrama only serve to drown out any worthwhile points they actually have? Do you think anyone is going to seriously entertain any constructive criticism offered when it's book-ended by 'this kills the game' and 'failure as a concept'? Ranting isn't feedback. Well it is feedback in a way... the same way Bill Bixby turning into a green Lou Ferigno is feedback. What are you supposed to do with that?

    I agree that threats are not necessary, however. here are my concerns. I trade time and money for character and game progression. If I pay the money and put in the time to achieve progression in the game, I should be fairly compensated if that is taken away from me at no fault of my own. I have been playing since about 2006 I believe and have seen the game go through numerous dramatic changes. This is the first time that character development earned through gameplay has been on the chopping block. Unless what I am reading is being misinterpreted, it seems that all of the time I have spent thus far earning epic destiny xp and fate points is completely wasted, and I will not be compensated for my time and money.

    I am a 43 year old father, husband, homeowner, and small businessman. My time is valuable to me and in short supply. I play this game because I enjoy it, and gain satisfaction from achieving in-game goals. I stop watching a television program or reading a book once it becomes unenjoyable (sp?). The same rules apply to my online gaming habits.
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  9. #1209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    While it's important to promote re-playability it is also to remember an account for the negative effects of power creep. Giving completionists 13 new free (active) feats would further push the upper reaches of the game, setting the standards for top content even harder and therefore further out of reach of average players, much less new players, which in turn discourages new players from joining/staying when they realize how far behind they are the curve and how long it will take to catch up. This needs to be considered when adding any new TR mechanics as well. Retaining loyal customers is important, but so is attracting and retaining new customers.

    But I appreciate your line of thought!
    I agree with you and think it certainly could be overpowered...whether that's dealt with through extending the grind or just not using that idea would be up to the dev's but it's another thought for everyone that wants extra past life feats. You could even limit the number of slots to put those feats in but still require a certain number of past lives in that class to use a 'free' slot.
    Tajawuka 20 Bladeforged Paladin running divine ETR's (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's, 3 martial epl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  10. #1210
    Community Member Grosbeak07's Avatar
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    Default

    Devs - Love the back and forth banter in this thread.

    Player Responses: 1,202
    Turbine Responses: 9*

    *and I'm including Cordovan's please don't say mean things to the devs, their egos are fragile and we can only coax them out of their holes every few months posts.
    Magical Rings are well... magical. - Gandalf

  11. #1211
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Perhaps this has been covered already, but I'm just wondering about something.

    If the goal of TRing is to make players re-play the content and thus add longevity to it, why does any ED have to be wiped?

    If the idea is that you have to ETR to gain the ED PL, then presumably you will ETR as long as there are ED PL's that you want.

    We have 11 EDs currently. If a player has a character that wants every ED PL, he would have to ETR 11 times. Most players won't want that many, but some will.

    So players who want those ED PLs will already have to re-level several times. It doesn't make sense that after they ETR several times, that that's when they then go on and "complete" the ED trees.

    Really, no matter the TR, all EDs should be preserved. The ETR should be about getting ED PLs. It should not be about "locking" in what is already locked in. I understand that Turbine wants to prolong the endgame, which unfortunately is very very small, but essentailly forcing the regrinding of EDs constantly will just get tiring.

    And how the hell will Turbine balance a game like this? With people all over the place in terms of Past Lives and available EDs and Twists?

    The TR process was sold long ago as a minor thing to keep people playing while waiting for new endgame content. Somewhere along the lines Turbine got lazy and decided to make that an endgame focus. And now they want to expand that even further.

    There is no need for Turbine to invalidate their promises. They can still achieve a desirable "grind" without changing the rules and backpaddling on their word.

  12. #1212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    While it's important to promote re-playability it is also to remember an account for the negative effects of power creep. Giving completionists 13 new free (active) feats would further push the upper reaches of the game, setting the standards for top content even harder and therefore further out of reach of average players, much less new players, which in turn discourages new players from joining/staying when they realize how far behind they are the curve and how long it will take to catch up. This needs to be considered when adding any new TR mechanics as well. Retaining loyal customers is important, but so is attracting and retaining new customers.

    But I appreciate your line of thought!
    Not every past life provides a benefit for every build, so it's not really 13 feats that you would be able to use at any one time. You might get something from 4 or 5 at the most. And none of these would actually be game breaking in any way. But I'm hoping that it's not something we need to worry about for now.

    If we can get Heroic Completionist and the new Epic Completionist confirmed as being auto-granted then maybe we can bring this up again some time in the future

  13. #1213
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    Default The solution

    .....to making epic tr relevant without destroying heroic TR is to

    1) leave heroic TR alone.

    2) Grant an additional EPIC past life feat if you epic TR in addition to what you already get for a heroic TR.

    3) Leave the EPIC destiny system AS IS.

    4) As an additional incentive, create prestige enhancement lines that are only available if you EPIC TR while a particular class and/or completed epic destiny is your primary.


    ....lastly, leave the current enhancement system for heroic levels alone. It isn't broken. Don't waste developer time "fixing" it when that time could be spent improving quality control, adding content, adding playable races/classes, designing new feats, writing the new game engine that will keep this game relevant another 7-8 years, ect.....
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  14. #1214
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    Default remember

    ...the goal is for new players to stick around and become veteran players. if the needs of the veteran players are ignored, what incentive does a new player have for sticking around? And if the new player has no incentive for sticking around, why bother becoming a new player in the first place? Seems like something worth running up the flagpole.
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  15. #1215
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Permian View Post
    Thank you very much for my new signature I couldn't resist. It






    is






    AWESOME!!
    Teehee, talk about foot in mouth heh lmao
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    Insulting the development team is not allowed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak
    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

  16. #1216
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    To further some of the points here... I don't LIKE TR, but I do like being able to fix mistakes without losing all the gear I have accumulated. Also, when there are changes that affect certain builds, I can TR and change my build. It allows for a lot more flexibility than there was before the TR system. Also, some of the past life bonuses are pretty nice to have. I do not like replaying old content, but it is a means to an end when it comes to TR for me.The bigger question I have is why the change? I think the current TR / LR system works great. I have not done a GR, but I am sure there is a case for that as well.
    Sarlona Server Mythical:
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  17. #1217

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    Why not handle epic TR the same way as Heroic?

    Pick ONE destiny to TR
    that ONE destiny is reset to zero (all others untouched)
    Gain feat/point/whatever for that destiny
    reset heroic level to 15(or 1 but seriously is that necessary?)
    The ONE destiny that was TR'd requires more exp to cap out(up to double after 2 times) next time around.
    I don't understand the need for this Bonding concept... scrap it
    Nerdrage solved
    wow that was hard
    Formerly Rathic of harvestgain

  18. #1218
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    How I see it:
    1. Make Heroic TR and Destiny Bonding independent from each other.
    2. Grant bonus ability point of choice (not build point, _ability_ point of choice added after build points are spent) for TRing past lvl 25 and 2nd one for TRing at 28, thus rewarding character directly for burning more XP with something more than often-useless build points. Alternatively, grant a stance-like feat giving a stacking + to stat of choice, exchangable at shrine (or perhaps at Fred's).
    3. Make Destiny bonding reset a single sphere instead of whole tree (by the time we get to this, I'm hoping cleric destiny will be ready), but that it can be done only if the whole sphere is capped - example - having 1980k xp in Fatesinger, Draconic, and Magister, one could Bond one of those destinies, thus getting "Epic benefit" from it.

    38 point build isn't really worth burning 6.6 mil xp more. Bonus ability point, however... Ability point of choice is worth a lot more than 2 build points.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
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  19. #1219
    DDO Senior Producer Glin's Avatar
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    Default still open for discussion

    The team has been having some further design discussions, based on feedback from this thread. It seems important to state - they recognize that several players are already very invested in Epic Destinies, this was absolutely part of the early design discussions. There are a couple Epic game-play solutions in debate that we’ll be sharing with you as well. There won’t be any flash decisions made as design changes are considered, between posts we will be spending a lot of time reviewing the many directions the system can take players, as we are a few months away from starting development.

    Thank you for sharing your feedback, reactions and ideas with us. More to come soon, and I'd expect, over the coming weeks as well.

    ~Erik
    @producerglin
    ---------------
    follow me on Twitter @producerglin

  20. #1220
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yan_PL View Post
    How I see it:
    1. Make Heroic TR and Destiny Bonding independent from each other.
    2. Grant bonus ability point of choice (not build point, _ability_ point of choice added after build points are spent) for TRing past lvl 25 and 2nd one for TRing at 28, thus rewarding character directly for burning more XP with something more than often-useless build points. Alternatively, grant a stance-like feat giving a stacking + to stat of choice, exchangable at shrine (or perhaps at Fred's).
    3. Make Destiny bonding reset a single sphere instead of whole tree (by the time we get to this, I'm hoping cleric destiny will be ready), but that it can be done only if the whole sphere is capped - example - having 1980k xp in Fatesinger, Draconic, and Magister, one could Bond one of those destinies, thus getting "Epic benefit" from it.

    38 point build isn't really worth burning 6.6 mil xp more. Bonus ability point, however... Ability point of choice is worth a lot more than 2 build points.
    THIS is an idea I would get behind. Being granted 2 extra ability points for burning 27 million experience would be worth it to me - EVEN IF I GOT NOTHING ELSE. I wouldn't be able to cap my rogue's other destinies fast enough to take advantage of this - or my monk's or my druid's! On top of that, you can level-gate the extra ability points for all I care. I do not have to have them at level one (but that would be A W E S O M E). Give me one at level 3 or 4 and the other at level 7 or 8 and I would still be excited about that.

    Also, something that is not being talked about much in this thread, get rid of the permanent quest repetition penalties. Put them on a ransack timer or something. We are going to need them to go away (or you are going to have to restore the challenge experience) in order to get to level 28.

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