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  1. #1081
    Hero Propane's Avatar
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    Default Thoughts / suggestions -

    Hay peps!

    I have been following these thread and wanted to add my thoughts to this discussion.

    I was very disappointed by the preview of the Enhancement changes on Lamannia. The level and types of changes presented in the preview were a turn off to me and greatly reduced my desire to play the game know what changes are coming.

    The discussion about the proposed changed to TR and Epic TR have completely taken the wind out of my sails – I do not find any value at all in any of the proposals and it would take away even more fun out of the game. This is first time since I started playing that I am serious considering finding another game.

    A few bullet points of what I am thinking…

    1) Please don’t mess with the current LV 1-18 game play – it seems to be rolling along well – no need to change anything – allowing any TR’s to skip these levels is a bad plan (lots of quest, helping other learn the game, etc…)

    2) Not allowing TR’s at LV 20 will be a mistake – lots of people are happy at heroic levels and want little to do with epics (or don’t want to pay for epics) don’t take that way.

    3) The LV 18-22 game play is rough. LV 20 brings what seems like a new / different playing field – LV 18 and 19’s can’t go a lot places the LV 20’s can so there is often a split in these groups of players - the XP needed to go from 18 to 20 a TR is a lot – worst part of the grind at any level. When the level cap was 20, Raiding would allow you to cost from 18 to 20 (TOD, VOD, Hound, Shroud, etc) – now those are rarely ran for XP or at all. (big problem here)

    4) Taking away ED XP is totally unacceptable- lots of people will be gone forever. This could single handily kill this game by having a lot of people quite at the same time

    5) Raiding needs to be fixed. I would love to see the old raids touched up an released on EPIC levels – enhance N,H,E – make them more stepped… 20, 22, 24 LV for example. YES need to add new raids as well- the new raids don’t always need to be at the level cap either

    6) I would love to see a special token drop in raids that can be collected and used in a barter system. A nice collection of rare items (TOD boot ingredients, high level special crafting ingredients, EPIC updates / augments / seals / etc.) Give people a reason to run all the raids by allowing them to take steps towards a common goal.

    7) To help with the LV 20 – max ED – 3 full twist character “unbalancing” the level 20-25 game play – I would meter in the twists. At 20 you can switch / access any of your ED – have all your fate points - but not be allowed to twist anything. At 21 you get 1 allowed twist, at 23, the 2nd and at 25 the third.

    8) When you EPIC TR – grant a few fate points (3-6) for use in next life. This would encourage TRing without senseless fate pint grinding.

    9) Allow an EPIC TR to gain another twist (LV 27ish)


    I am looking forward to more Dev conversation on this topic!

    Thanks,

    Propane.

    Calling Sarlona my home - Guildmaster - Brotherhood of Redemption - ddo.borguild.com
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  2. #1082
    Community Member Tuberculozis's Avatar
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    Losing all the EDs that I spent too many hours grinding for? All sorts of DO NOT WANT to that!

    Like someone else brought up before me, what about the twists of fate and fate points? If I'm a Wizard and I want to twist in Endless Faith from the Exalted Angel ED for example, I have the fate points (even bought the +2 tome), but I'll have to re-grind the path from Magister to Exalted Angel every life if I want to stack caster lives/epic lives?

    Also, with the higher lvl cap of 28, players who do plan on grinding out eTRs might start to plan their leveling/quests more thoroughly if there aren't enough epic quests to go around. So we may have 1) more grind, and 2) people being more picky about the quests they run, when they run them, and with whom. It'll be just like TR'ing used to be years ago! (Except now you'll lose EDs instead of tomes.) Of course this is just speculation at this point, but what if?

    Ever since I've heard about this, I've felt like playing a whole lot less. I still run raids and all, but now DDO has become more of a boredom buster and socializing experience, instead of the game where I used to strive to make my character as good as possible. I've always wanted to keep pushing my main character to new heights, but if this happens, I just don't think it'll be worth the effort. Looking at some of this thread, I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way. I REALLY hope Turbine re-considers the whole ED loss upon TR issue.
    Playing on Khyber, in guild Simple: now lvl 67!
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  3. #1083
    Community Member Varinox's Avatar
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    Having had time to think about it I am still upset with the idea that Heroic TR will wipe Epic Destinies, I haven't been grinding them, instead I've been working on them slowly.

    For Example My Wizard started on Magister, and I found I couldn't train the line I wanted because it was all locked up behind the Spell Focus feat which I don't generally bother with, also prevents it being of any use to My Artificer, so I started working my way towards Shiradi, Currently TR'd and levelling, but all wasted effort.

    My Rogue was happy with Shadowdancer but I was planning on twisting in Fast healing from Fury of the Wild, Currently TR'd and levelling, but all wasted effort.

    My Artificer was stuck with the Arcane choices none of which appealed, so I was forced to work through Fatesinger (UGH!) to get to Shadowdancer which is more complamentary to my playstyle, with the intent of working towards Shiradi, to see what I could twist in from there, Currently level 20 with Capped Epic XP, because I use him primarily for running all Cannith challenges, but I also enjoy some EPic content on him, but the Destiny work is all wasted effort if he wants to Heroic TR.

    I Preordered MotU and Shadowfell Conspiracy though personally I don't bother with Epic Levels, I prefer the class based systems of the Heroic levels, only time I've levelled beyond 20 was before I TR'd my characters. I do enjoy working on the Epic Destinies however. With the New level cap I was considering Levelling beyond 20, as I would likely miss out on a lot of the Expansion content if I didn't.

    What loosing Epic Destiny progress means to me if I want to Heroic TR my characters is simply that I won't bother working on the Epic Destinies or any Epic content beyond the Cannith Challenges, for a long time to come.

  4. #1084
    Hero AZgreentea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    And I know that I've been one of the strongest voices here against everything but it bears saying this:
    I think that I and most of the people strongly against this actually agree with you.

    The only problem is that it wasn't in place to begin with and because of that they have people that it will take a ton more than an 'epic advantage' to compensate.
    I can definitely agree with that. If the proposed system had been the first one put into place, it would have been both accepted and popular. I would even say that if the current system had been proposed second, it would have been considered over powered.

    Unfortunately, it didnt happen that way.
    The problem is never how to get new, innovative thoughts into your mind, but how to get old ones out. Every mind is a building filled with archaic furniture. Clean out a corner of your mind and creativity will instantly fill it.
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  5. #1085
    Community Member Standal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.
    I think preservation of fate points is the absolute requirement of this system. Nobody maxed out ED's to get xp. We maxed it to get fate points and the twists that come with them. All of my following comments are based on preservation of existing fate points.

    Epic destiny XP and unbound EDs -- please burn them. I can't currently get more fate points because I can't gain more destiny levels. Please let me Epic TR and get more fate points and better twists. Even if your Epic past life feats are terrible, I probably won't care. As long as we are allowed to relevel unbound EDs and get more fate points, this is a great system. With a little bit of planning before my TR, I will have the proper destiny or destinies bound for an epic TR and will be able to roll into the primary destiny for my TR with some twists in play.

    The current endgame is broken. Once you have maxxed out destinies your character can become different, but not better. When you hit 20, you are essentially a max power toon that is just rolling through content. As long as I can get more fate points per life, every TR will be giving me some incremental advantage.

    It appears that finally the devs are addressing the heroic TR system. I have a greater heroic XP tome and am geared to run elite BB throughout. I don't run any quest more than 3 times until level 17. The XP in Amrath, Cannith, and Inspired Quarter is designed for a level 20 cap game. The cap will shortly be 28. The XP for quests in these areas should be increased by a factor of 3. You don't need to change anything else about Heroic XP.
    Last edited by Standal; 06-16-2013 at 10:09 AM. Reason: bound versus unbound

  6. #1086
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    So how'd you lie to them? I just finished uninstalling over this. I'll keep checking this thread hoping they (Turbine) grow a brain, but since I doubt that will happen it'll probably be permanent.
    When I saw his post, I did start to wonder just what "false info" was being handed out by everyone but Hendrik. Were people saying that upon TR, your build would be reset to 28 points, all past life feats would be removed, and your TR cache vaporized? If so, then I can see why Hendrik was able to calm them.

  7. #1087
    Uber Uber Completionist
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    Quote Originally Posted by Towrn View Post
    Lets say this stays as is.

    You will have made many people angry and not have listened to us again. Some may leave, some won't.

    Now it is spring 2015 and you say you are adding 3 new Epic Destinies.

    People have just finished their characters, AGAIN. They did it your way, losing all of their ED exp and fate points to Epic TR for Epic Completionist and re-grinding all of the ED exp and fate points.

    Now they have to do it all over, once again.

    The people who didn't leave the first time most likely will if there is a second time.

    Just something to think about before you roll out something that almost EVERYONE that has posted says they dislike.
    Kinda but not quite. Difference is that you will now have bonded all of your previous Destinies, so you will only need to Epic TR to pick up the 3 new ones if that's what you decide to do.

    Contrary to how it's described, you don't actually automatically lose Completionist when a new class is introduced, you only lose it when you TR and find out that you no longer qualify to pick it up. I'm hoping that they keep Epic Completionist consistent with Heroic Completionist when it comes to this ... *cough* and they make Heroic Completionist an auto-granted feat.

  8. #1088
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Out of the 12 people pulled into my groups yesterday, 11 of them has the TR/ETR info totally WRONG! They were listening to others who were giving out false info, and basing views off those people.

    All 11 were far less upset when they actually got FACTUAL info explained to them by a turbine fanboi.
    ftfy



    Easy fix for all the nerdrage, just forget about the idea of wiping EDs on an heroic TR. Which means the majority of people I know won't bother with ETR, but hey keep making a system practically no one will use. It's not like we have a shortage of end-game content or a multitude of bugs in the game.

  9. #1089
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    Three things should happen that will make your idea reasonable concerning ED xp.

    1) Fate Points have to carry over during a TR *
    2) Unlocked Destinies have to remain unlocked during a TR
    3) Add a way to earn xp in a non-active Destiny even at a reduced rate (say 33%)

    Add these 3 things and you have a superb system. 1) and 2) are absolutely essential while 3) is simply good, common sense to make the game more fun to play.

    * If you want to allow players to add more points of fate after a TR then cool - but I rather doubt that.
    Technically, I hence suggest you "mark" each unbound rank of ED that has been earned before the TR. After the TR those unbound ranks are lost but still "marked". When calculating the number of fate points the character has you count currently earned ranks as well as the marked ranks that are not currently earned. That way you have an incremental system still wrt fate points despite wiping the xp.

  10. #1090
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    Been mulling this over for awhile... I don't think this is a real suggestion. I think this is something really awful to contrast with a bad, but still proposed, change. Remember the Great Nerfing in U14? They told us that the mobs would be immune to insta-kills, stat damage, and level drain. Then they backpedaled and just increased the cooldown for CoD, FoD, and made Wail very dangerous for the common squishy wizard to use. They also snuck the AC and poison/disease change by in the same time period we were mad about that. This is a fairly common strategy for things like getting around various censorship/ratings boards, presenting a very bad or extreme idea to make a less extreme one seem reasonable by comparison. This is such a moronic idea, even by Turbine's standards, that it can't possibly be a real suggestion.

  11. #1091
    Community Member Towrn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Towrn View Post
    Lets say this stays as is.

    You will have made many people angry and not have listened to us again. Some may leave, some won't.

    Now it is spring 2015 and you say you are adding 3 new Epic Destinies.

    People have just finished their characters, AGAIN. They did it your way, losing all of their ED exp and fate points to Epic TR for Epic Completionist and re-grinding all of the ED exp and fate points.

    Now they have to do it all over, once again.

    The people who didn't leave the first time most likely will if there is a second time.

    Just something to think about before you roll out something that almost EVERYONE that has posted says they dislike.
    A friend pointed out to me, as a few of you have, that this entire post was off base and I immediately knew why. That is what I get for posting before I've had coffee.

    Sorry for the complete epic failure on my part to continue adding positively to the thread
    Knorgh (Pally/monk) Currently on life number 32

  12. #1092
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    A few goals for Epic Destiny TR:

    [LIST][*] Adjust the XP curve in Epic levels for multi-life TR to avoid the dramatic escalating grind

    What else?

    Here are some changes we’re currently exploring:


    [LIST][*] Reincarnation cooldown timer reduced to 3 days.[*] Reincarnation XP curves smoothed to ease penalties for multiple lives.
    .

    Why should there be a XP penalty in the first place with the TR system. It should be penalizing enough to start over at level 1. Increasing the amount of time spent going from level 1-28 to over double is horrible.


    I think the problem here is the belief that the current TR system is well liked by the community. You see tons of TR characters and falsely assume that the current system is fun and well received, yet the vast majority do it due to the lack of options at level cap. Very few people enjoy TR, very few. The increased XP changes the fun leveling experience from 1-20 to "a grind" as you yourself stated above. Everyone knows that there is nothing FUN about a grind.


    The new system you want to put in place is going to be a grind as well, DDO is becoming a game where you level from 1-28 over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, and at a massive XP penalty.


    The focus at level cap should be end game raids, and epics, not on constantly starting over at level 1. I would also like an option where I can earn XP at level cap playing with my friends that can be used when TRing to zap me back in the 20s. If you think that this will effect grouping at lower levels with new players you are very much wrong. Due to XP penalties and repeat quest penalties TR characters DO NOT group with new players, you can't risk them slowing down your enormous grind. This is WELL KNOWN and needs to be addressed somehow.


    The best thing I can think of to help smooth the horror that is more and more TRing is to REMOVE the XP penalty of TRing, and INCREASE the first time run bonuses of quests so TRs don't just run the same small list of quests every life (which epic TR will make even more mind numbing).
    Making DDO a better game 1 post at a time!

    Triple EVERYTHING Completionist= Heroic 39/39, Iconic 12/12, Epic 36/36

  13. #1093
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    Can we keep them separated?

    Make Epic TR necessary to get ED PL, and roll back to 20. No class change.

    Heroic TR as it is now. Necessary for class change, and as such, also necessary for TR into Iconic.

    Have an option at Kruz dialog for doing both together.

    OR

    If Epic TR does include Heroic TR, have Kruz check for Heroic PL's.
    Should he find all Heroic PL's in character, then offer choice between starting at level 1 (15 for Iconic) with class change
    OR starting at level 20 without a class change.
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  14. #1094
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Wrong. Please, remember that this is more of a brainstorming session than it is a set in stone announcement about what's coming.

    Additionally, while we appreciate people's passionate opinions about this issue, the amount of rage in this thread needs to be lowered. Nothing is set in stone. Repeat:

    NOTHING IS SET IN STONE.

    I have frequently read on the forums that folks would like to see more back and forth with the developers in regards to hot issues undergoing development work. This is your chance to do so in a way that doesn't amount to screaming in someone's face. Keep in mind that there's a lot of discussion taking place based on your feedback, but a lot of that discussion will not be made public until it's in a state to put out there as a possibility or an idea being put forward for feedback.
    Good to hear, thanks Cordovan. I would urge the team to take the rage in this forum very seriously though. I think the players all sense that this change could be the breaking point for the game. Other issues have already made pugging difficult in the game, but this change could result in losing a third of the player base, or worse, and that could be the 1000lb bolder that broke the camel's back.

  15. #1095
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    Default Remove the TR xp penalty

    I used to like leveling a new character from 1-20, TR XP penalty now makes me hate it.


    I LOVE the quest chains in Eveningstar, please don't make hate them too with a large XP penalty.
    Making DDO a better game 1 post at a time!

    Triple EVERYTHING Completionist= Heroic 39/39, Iconic 12/12, Epic 36/36

  16. #1096
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Do not introduce a system that makes us redo our epic destinies.

    Sure, bond one at a time if you like, but don't make us re-earn the destiny xp. Leveling up to 28 and then TRing again should be plenty to bond another destiny.

    Next, for those with completionist, how are you taking into account that TRing through more heroic lives that gain nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Wrong. Please, remember that this is more of a brainstorming session than it is a set in stone announcement about what's coming.

    Additionally, while we appreciate people's passionate opinions about this issue, the amount of rage in this thread needs to be lowered. Nothing is set in stone. Repeat:

    NOTHING IS SET IN STONE.

    I have frequently read on the forums that folks would like to see more back and forth with the developers in regards to hot issues undergoing development work. This is your chance to do so in a way that doesn't amount to screaming in someone's face. Keep in mind that there's a lot of discussion taking place based on your feedback, but a lot of that discussion will not be made public until it's in a state to put out there as a possibility or an idea being put forward for feedback.
    Cordovan, I hope you realize that while we appreciate the heads up on this, most of us in the community are a bit skeptical now. More than once the community has cried out for turbine not to do something and the company has done it anyway. This is why many are upset. Once turbine announces something is in the "planning" stage it goes through... Surprise us with the enhancement pass and actually incorporate our inputs into the new system and maybe you will see less doom-saying in the future.

    I appreciate you being here and reading the comments. I hope that this time will be different, but I'm not ready to start holding my breath yet...
    /sigh

  17. #1097
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    ...
    Next, for those with completionist, how are you taking into account that TRing through more heroic lives that gain nothing?

    ...
    There will be four Iconics with Iconic PL's that can stack three times each = 12 runs. There are only 11 ED's atm. TR'ing through Iconic lives will get them Iconic PL's AND ED PL's.
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  18. #1098
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    So where are we on page 55? Anyone defending this stupid change besides the completely insane?

  19. #1099
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play.
    I don't see this.... at all. I have a couple of capped toons that have done NOTHING but epic level content since reaching 20 (except for a bit of loot or favor farming). If by "avoid epic level play" you really mean "avoid grinding off destinies for mind-numbing hours and not enjoy it" then we're on the same page, but I don't really see anyone avoiding epic content unless it's to grind past lives; which this proposed change does not even prevent.

    One of the big issues here that the dev team has not (and likely will not publicly) addressed (but needs to be aware of) is the broken trust issue. - We were told our ED XP would not go away - Changing that makes you into liars, and nobody likes feeling lied to and betrayed. If EDs worked like this in the first place people would have done things differently, but investing so much time and effort based on what we were told, then having it taken away makes people VERY angry. Some of that anger is at what they are losing, but make no mistake that much of that anger is from the feeling of betrayal. Therefor, the smaller the change here the better.

  20. #1100
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    So where are we on page 55? Anyone defending this stupid change besides the completely insane?
    I think it's important to know what the devs goals are for this new system. We were presented a system, but not the goals of that system. It's hard to come to a compromise that the devs will be happy with if we don't know the goal they're trying to reach. By reading between the lines, this is what I've come up with.

    They do not want people TR'ing at a "half way point". They want "real" TR to be done at level 28.

    They want to eliminate or apply a disencentive to heroic TR so that people will be encouraged to level to 28 before doing a TR. In the proposed system, there are many more positives to an epic TR than there are to a heroic TR. You gain all the same advantages of a heroic TR but with the epic bonuses added on.

    This is where their reluctance to retain heroic TR destiny xp comes from. They do not want any sort of incentive for heroic TR over epic TR. They want you to epic TR. They clearly didn't realize how much that is a sticking point for many players. They perhaps were hoping players would be so happy with the epic TR system that they would all basically have no use for heroic TR any more.

    There are a few issues with this line of thinking. Players feel there is a massive difference in game play between heroic and epic. It's a different style of game and some players don't want to play epic and any suggestion from the devs that these sort of players should be encouraged to play epic more often is seen as a lack of understanding their playstyles. These players don't necessarily want to epic TR. They are still happy using heroic TR as they have been. Any incentive of epic TR isn't an incentive to players that perfer heroic content. It certainly doesn't make up for the change in heroic TR mechanics.

    Players don't want to pay more for epic TR if it's basically meant as a replacement for heroic TR as it seems that is Turbine's intention. By "pay more" I mean both DDO store cost and/or in game grind cost. This issue could be eliminated if epic TR simply uses the same TR hearts that we currently use or uses the same cost. Until Turbine tells us about cost/availability of the new hearts, this is an unknown variable. Our feedback will be less accurate for each unknown variable in the equation.

    Sorry, this post is getting a bit long now, but my point is that by examining Turbine's goals and combining it with our breaking points, we could come to a compromise.

    Turbine's Goals
    1. Turbine doesn't want anyone to have any incentive to heroic TR compared to epic TR. They would prefer players level up to 28, then epic TR, eliminating their old widget (True Heart of Wood) and introducing a new widget (with new cost and availability).
    2. Turbine does want to reduce the grind associated with an epic TR (and heroic TR).
    3. Turbine does want a destiny reset on all players that undergo a TR.
    4. Turbine is flexible on "epic advantage".
    5. Turbine is flexible on fate points.

    Player Goals
    1. Some players do not like epic and therefore are against a disincentive to heroic TR.
    2. Many players agree that epic TR is almost a good idea. The main breaking points are twofold. Firstly, the reneging on Turbine's part about epic destiny xp carrying through a TR and the complete removal of any player effort put into the destinies. I consider these two very different points, but probably the two most important for Turbine to address.
    3. Players for the most part are very much in favor of some sort of reduced grind, whether it comes from an easier xp curve or epic advantage, but it's important that epic advantage be optional for many players as it could effect their playgroups if they don't start at the same point.
    4. Many players would be much less annoyed by the removal of all destinies if fate points are retained. Some players want the potential to accumulate even more fate points, though this doesn't seem to be a make or break point.

    Anyway, this is what I've taken from the 50 or so pages here. It covers most of the major concerns on both sides and I think any proposal that can cover all these concerns could be seen as a great compromise.
    We can use this knowledge to come up with a system that pleases the greatest number of players
    Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen

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