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  1. #1061
    Community Member Oberon_Shrader's Avatar
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    Default Alienation of players and how not to do it...

    After reading many pages of this thread, I thought I'd just like to throw in my two cents. But first, a short warning to Turbine and their marketing team. This is not personal, nor meant as an attack; I really love DDO as a game and it's really the only game that I regularly play.

    I see that many people are complaining about the loss of EDs and/or XP. I think these are really just representative of time. Gaining XP take time, whether you actively grind for those EDs or just play along and get it as you go. Considering that when EDs were introduced we were told they would be persistent through lives, many people put a very considerable time investment into their character's EDs. It's really not the XP or EDs that we don't want to lose, it's the time. If we lose that, its been wasted. Wasting people's time is one of the top ways companies alienate and lose customers.

    Turbine is a business, we all know that, and they want to find ways to make money. But basic marketing teaches not to alienate your customer and in this case, especially not your core target market: long-term players.

    Another basic rule of dealing with customers: satisfying customer expectations isn't enough, a company should go above and beyond expectations to create a sense that the customer is getting more than from the company than just what is necessary.

    "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" would apply here.

    Now some suggestions for how Epic TR should work:

    1) Leaver EDs alone. Turbine told us they would be persistent and so they should be. One exception, which is
    2) to reset the one active ED to zero XP and give us a feat for it.
    3) Reset Epic and Heroic Level XP (not the EDs, mind you) and give us some credit in heroic levels for that lost Epic XP (just to make the grind back up shorter).
    4) Reduce the cost of True Hearts so that there is less incentive to grind a free one and more incentive to buy one in the store! After all, they're a digital product, it's not like you have to make them or anything!

    Maybe these suggestions aren't perfect, but I think it's a simple solution that would have minimal impact on current playability (is that a word?).

  2. #1062
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    I have one last question that you may want to go ahead and consider now before you end up deciding sometime in the future that something along these lines needs to be done to, you know, make sure that latest expansion gets bought.

    When you epic Tr do you plan to make the experience requirements go up like heroic Trs? I saw that only 2 more build points will be added. So I'm assuming that all epic Trs will have the same experience requirements for each Tr. Do you think that is prudent considering that you will probaly be wanting to sell content and higher levels again at some point in the future? After all needing more xp for a Tr certainly helps sell content and a little thinking in advance can save a lot of backlash.

  3. #1063
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    I do not think the devs are going to read all of this, but I am going to throw out a fact situation that I do not think has been posted about which is going to occur again and again which is another infuriating detractor from Glin's proposal. Say I true reincarnate a melee 3 times and pick up the epic past lives for grandmaster, dreadnaught, and fury. I then level the character up to 28 in the build I want. I have no desire to get other epic past lives really so I get all the fate points, twists, and generally get other epic destinies then the three I have bonded. I stay at 28 for 9 months or so and then for some reason I either want to check out another build or Turbine nerfs the build I have or what have you. I then have the choice of trring again and losing all the non bonded destinies, twists and fate points that I gained or stay as is. What a terrible decision to put a player in. That is a ton of work that constantly needs to be done everytime a character is levelled up to 28. Really Devs come on man...
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  4. #1064
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    The team is thrilled that DDO continues to grow, innovate, and provide a great D&D experience.
    There is nothing innovative about adding more grind and invalidating the progress players have made. A lot of MMOs from Asia already do this far better than you.
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  5. #1065
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    Default

    There is a lot of rage both in the forums and in voice chat of every pug i join, and it makes me sad.


    I really love ddo, its unique combat system and character building has captured my heart. That being said i really hate the TR system, and i know many others do to. I am sad and upset to hear that this is what you envision as the future of ddo and that so much focus has been placed on it.


    I appreciate the fact that you presented these proposed changes to us rather than just implementing them. I am ashamed of my initial rage posts and those of others. I feel the anger and frustration brought upon by the current TR grind has lead to this, and the last thing people wanted was more TR grinding, and so the pot finally boiled over.


    I sincerely hope you guys not only change your plans about epic TR, but revisit the grind of current TR system as well. New players need to feel like they can level to cap and be just as viable (after some gearing) as veteran players. Making them feel that the gap between their fresh lvl 28 and the multiple TR/epic TR character is even larger prevents many people from joining the game. This is what AAs did to everquest 1, and it killed that game. Please revisit this idea and TR grind in general.



    P.S. i like you guys, i really do. I also appreciate ddo as the work of art that it is. Lets fix these flaws and prevent new ones.
    Making DDO a better game 1 post at a time!

    Triple EVERYTHING Completionist= Heroic 42/42, Iconic 12/12, Epic 36/36

  6. #1066

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    We do not need new systems like this, with so much still broken.

    Fix bugs and add tons of new quests and new monsters. Go crazy and add a new class. THIS would draw people back into DDO and raise eyebrows of those here who've stayed the course.

    The direction of DDO has gone in 2013, plain out SUCKS. This idea, which probably won't see the light of day until well into 2014, is a sign that 2014 will be just as bad as it has been in 2013.

    Fix bugs and add tons of new quests and new monsters. Why go through all the trouble changing the game, the rules, the promises, yet never fixing the real problem... that the game is STALE.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 06-16-2013 at 02:14 AM.


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  7. #1067
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    I haven't read all the pages but it seems clear that the current suggestion for ED from the dev team is gonna make a lot of people angry.

    Take the XP for example, 5 ranks for a full ED lost is a bit sad. Should it be made to 1/4 of the XP you have you'll get a top XP rate close to a full 20 level 3+ TR life. But if you give XP to ED TR´s a lot of the lower level are gonna be empty of people, it might be better if you can find a way to give back that don't make all the "old" people scream and still have them running the harbor quests. Maybe simply give a XP boost on a new life that´s counted vs the ED XP you lost? Maybe you'll need to have a full sphere maxed out to lock in a single ED from that part and only lose the XP in the current sphere? That way you might not even have to give out XP as it then requires all that XP to make a ED.

    For Iconic heroes will it be a separate TR system so you don't get a "Race", class and a ED at the same time?
    Or will it be a benefit to only make Iconic TRs from now on? It might even be that the Iconic past life feats counts as a class, that way you'll have at least 3 more "classes" to the game compared to now.

    Would be fun to get more posts from the dev team like the Piloto post. To keep the community in the dark about this might be a bad ide.

  8. #1068
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    My thoughts on all this is Fate points.

    I dont think its the capped destinys that are the problem, I have unlocked lvl 3/2/1 Twists with my lvl 25, how did i do this...i grinded out hours on 2min runs on rusted blades, now that is fair enough and i would hate to lose them earned fate points, but do i deserve 5 ranks in exalted angel etc for never ever truly running that destiny...I dont think i do.

    So my point is try to keep the fate points, re do the destinys and you will only concentrate on the destinys you truly need then Tr them for Feat, seems simple enough (hopefully you will unlock more fate points on the way back up).

    If anyone truly did run them destinys to cap I tip my hat, and that would be horrible (but i doubt anyone in DDO has done that!)

  9. #1069
    Community Member LadyKoneko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Wrong. Please, remember that this is more of a brainstorming session than it is a set in stone announcement about what's coming.

    Additionally, while we appreciate people's passionate opinions about this issue, the amount of rage in this thread needs to be lowered. Nothing is set in stone. Repeat:

    [U][B]NOTHING IS SET IN STONE.
    And that is some of the problem. It's been mentioned that this is estimated to be update 20, in August update 18 is coming out... So while yes, I know all of us are thankful that we're getting a say, and *hopefully* our concerns are heard... but more than that, that the updated (as listed) will not go into place.

    Many of us are passionate because we like this game, we like the people, we like the challenge, we.. etc you get the point. We are passionate because we have worked so hard on our characters, just as you Devs do to bring us new content. Yes it can be bugy, yes it has it's issues, but I'm nothing going into that.. it's not the heart of the discussion.

    It's just hard to unwind when suddenly everything most people have worked towards is going to be wiped? People have been working towards competitionist, getting their twists, finishing out their EDs (whether for prestige or twists doesn't matter).. this idea changes everything...

    Just as I'm sure a few Dev's didn't like the reaction/feedback to their hard work. The initial responses where, more or less, ripping the initial idea to shreds... that's exactly what the first post said to players. Congrats we're chopping up all your hard work... I do hope we can come to a solution that will appease players of all ages and types, that the Devs can create.
    * * * Koneka * * *
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  10. #1070
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    ... damn browser destroyed my long post...

    tl;dr

    always felt weird that you kept the ED when you TRed, like a huge boost in power waiting for you as soon you hit lvl 20, didn't whine at the time, but still would preffer this. sucks for out ED, but I'm fine with this.

    lower xp curve and banked xp for the TR is great to lessen the blow, but I wouldn't drop the xp curve of the ED themselves, just the Epic levels. Currently, you can get a max ED by lvl 23-24, since you have to wait 28 for the epic TR, you gonna maybe max 2-3-4 ED by then.

    Iconinc past life ED need to be bonus feat NOT needed for the completionist, since the Iconic still use the lvls from the other classes.
    However, i'd like if you got the class past life feat that goes with your iconic, if you are a lvl 20 paladin Bladesword, you get the past life for Paladin, and for Bladesword
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  11. #1071
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Default Revision of a previous post:

    How about this:

    As the stated intentions of adding Epic True Reincarntaion into the game is to encourage people to spend more time running Epic quests, I believe the following will achieve that goal while still maintaining the spirit (and promises) of the existing True Reincarnation system; without unduly punishing -or offering undue advantage to- those who have already spent the time and effort of filling out their destiny map.

    With Epic True Reincarnation, we are introducing a new completionist track: Epic Completionist. Using an Epic Heart of Wood will cause your Epic character to be reborn at level 1. ETR will wipe all heroic & epic level xp, as well as the xp of your chosen (active and "maxed") destiny. You receive both a class and a destiny past life feat from this process. All other (non-active) destinies will survive the ETR process. Epic True Reincarnation will be available to Iconic Heros, and will provide the appropriate Iconic past life in place of a class past life.

    Iconic True Reincarnation will be blended with Heroic True Reincarnation. Just as Veteran status only applies to a standard "first life," so does an Iconics' starting at level 15. Upon (Epic or Heroic) True Reincarnation, Iconic Heros will start at level 1 and acquire the appropriate Iconic past life feat.

    Both forms of True Reincarnation will reset quest completion counters as the standard True Reincarnation already does.

    As the "Epic Advantage" seemed to be compensatory for loosing all "unbonded" destiny xp, under the above system that would no longer be happening, I would suggest scrapping that part of the idea.

    Thoughts?
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  12. #1072
    The Hatchery SisAmethyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I do not think the devs are going to read all of this, but I am going to throw out a fact situation that I do not think has been posted about which is going to occur again and again which is another infuriating detractor from Glin's proposal. Say I true reincarnate a melee 3 times and pick up the epic past lives for grandmaster, dreadnaught, and fury.
    I then level the character up to 28 in the build I want. I have no desire to get other epic past lives really so I get all the fate points, twists, and generally get other epic destinies then the three I have bonded.

    I stay at 28 for 9 months or so and then for some reason I either want to check out another build or Turbine nerfs the build I have or what have you. I then have the choice of trring again and losing all the non bonded destinies, twists and fate points that I gained or stay as is.

    What a terrible decision to put a player in. That is a ton of work that constantly needs to be done everytime a character is levelled up to 28. Really Devs come on man...
    That will most likely actually happen with the enhancement pass. You will get an incentive to TR that characters. Welcome to the choice of not TRing an under-performant build or loosing all EDs ... such rejoice
    * We have collectable bags, hell even hireling folders, but can I have that 6-pack for my potions please?
    * Having already a past life on the dieng EU servers, I rerolled here and started from scratch as I like the game and the community, so lets see what awaits me here

  13. #1073
    The Hatchery SisAmethyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jam78 View Post
    ...
    If anyone truly did run them destinys to cap I tip my hat, and that would be horrible (but i doubt anyone in DDO has done that!)
    Well I could say otherwise around. I tip my hat for running the same quest a gazillion of times which I think is mind blowing. Some of the buddies I TR with have run till around 24/25 to venture a little bit into the so called end-game and earned EDs along the way, then TRed again. Some players using additional the stones, the TR process goes like in no time like that and not even having any repeatition penalties.
    * We have collectable bags, hell even hireling folders, but can I have that 6-pack for my potions please?
    * Having already a past life on the dieng EU servers, I rerolled here and started from scratch as I like the game and the community, so lets see what awaits me here

  14. #1074
    The Hatchery SisAmethyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    As the stated intentions of adding Epic True Reincarntaion into the game is to encourage people to spend more time running Epic quests, I believe the following will achieve that goal while still maintaining the spirit (and promises) of the existing True Reincarnation system; without unduly punishing -or offering undue advantage to- those who have already spent the time and effort of filling out their destiny map.

    ...

    Thoughts?
    It exist a method named "the 5 why's", and the starting question would be "Why players not run epic content?". My bet is, that the root cause isn't the existance of the current heroic TR, so there is zero reason to turn on that wheel.

    I personally have far less issues with the proposed epic TR including the the epic advantage, but with the changes to the heroic TR, as it would be a choice I can make. Now the choice would be probably only to not TR that character again, however that doesn't necessairly mean I would play more epic content.
    * We have collectable bags, hell even hireling folders, but can I have that 6-pack for my potions please?
    * Having already a past life on the dieng EU servers, I rerolled here and started from scratch as I like the game and the community, so lets see what awaits me here

  15. #1075
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delacroix21 View Post
    There is a lot of rage both in the forums and in voice chat of every pug i join, and it makes me sad.

    Out of the 12 people pulled into my groups yesterday, 11 of them has the TR/ETR info totally WRONG! They were listening to others who were giving out false info, and basing views off those people.

    All 11 were far less upset when they actually got FACTUAL info explained to them by someone with a level head.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
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  16. #1076
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Asking the devs to try to work past the useless noise to get the worthwhile information is counterproductive? Seriously? LOL.
    Useless noise is how I would define every non rational defense of this terrible game mechanic where some just rips others and dismisses their time and investment playing the game. Constantly characterizing people who don't play the way you do as wrong or less important than you are is just arrogant and dismissive. IMO you should stop confusing the dismissive and patronizing altitude you have towards other people as the "call to reason" you seem to think it is and realize that it looks toadying and sychopantic even to someone who has defended Turbine in the past and will again in the future when I see it as reasonable.

    Not the first time I've observed this " people who play the game differently than I do, are invalid" thing from you. If you want to keep saying that in so many words no one can stop you, but please stop pretending your posts are a call to reason when they aren't anything more that an emotional reaction.

    [Edit] typos was racing phones battery to see who could finish first.
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 06-16-2013 at 08:31 AM.

  17. #1077
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Out of the 12 people pulled into my groups yesterday, 11 of them has the TR/ETR info totally WRONG! They were listening to others who were giving out false info, and basing views off those people.

    All 11 were far less upset when they actually got FACTUAL info explained to them by someone with a level head.
    So how'd you lie to them? I just finished uninstalling over this. I'll keep checking this thread hoping they (Turbine) grow a brain, but since I doubt that will happen it'll probably be permanent.

  18. #1078
    Community Member Towrn's Avatar
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    Default Future Planning

    Lets say this stays as is.

    You will have made many people angry and not have listened to us again. Some may leave, some won't.

    Now it is spring 2015 and you say you are adding 3 new Epic Destinies.

    People have just finished their characters, AGAIN. They did it your way, losing all of their ED exp and fate points to Epic TR for Epic Completionist and re-grinding all of the ED exp and fate points.

    Now they have to do it all over, once again.

    The people who didn't leave the first time most likely will if there is a second time.

    Just something to think about before you roll out something that almost EVERYONE that has posted says they dislike.
    Knorgh (triple triple completionist) Currently 12 Wizard/6 Ranger/2 Monk

  19. #1079
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    Quote Originally Posted by Towrn View Post
    Now it is spring 2015 and you say you are adding 3 new Epic Destinies.

    People have just finished their characters, AGAIN. They did it your way, losing all of their ED exp and fate points to Epic TR for Epic Completionist and re-grinding all of the ED exp and fate points.

    Now they have to do it all over, once again.
    There are a lot of reasons to be upset about these changes, but I really do not see how this is one of those. First off, they have stated that they intend for Fate Points to be retained, unless there is some technical reason why they are unable to do so. Second, as an Epic Completionist all preexisting EDs would be bonded, meaning you do not lose any of them when you do your ETRs for any newly added EDs.

    The system as described actually seems quite good. It is just the reversing of the decisions that were said to be final when the ED system was first released that is screwing over many people who have already been participating in the ED system for nearly a year before the rules were changed on them that is a problem. And if they are able to retain their Fate Points as Piloto said is the intention then there is only really the matter of Keys of Destiny being unfairly removed, which is still a valid complaint but one that is much easier to live with.

    And, of course, if they prove unable to retain the earned Fate Points then I don't think that there is any kind of compensation at all that will keep a massive number of people from leaving over this.....

  20. #1080
    Hero Propane's Avatar
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    Default Thoughts / suggestions -

    Hay peps!

    I have been following these thread and wanted to add my thoughts to this discussion.

    I was very disappointed by the preview of the Enhancement changes on Lamannia. The level and types of changes presented in the preview were a turn off to me and greatly reduced my desire to play the game know what changes are coming.

    The discussion about the proposed changed to TR and Epic TR have completely taken the wind out of my sails – I do not find any value at all in any of the proposals and it would take away even more fun out of the game. This is first time since I started playing that I am serious considering finding another game.

    A few bullet points of what I am thinking…

    1) Please don’t mess with the current LV 1-18 game play – it seems to be rolling along well – no need to change anything – allowing any TR’s to skip these levels is a bad plan (lots of quest, helping other learn the game, etc…)

    2) Not allowing TR’s at LV 20 will be a mistake – lots of people are happy at heroic levels and want little to do with epics (or don’t want to pay for epics) don’t take that way.

    3) The LV 18-22 game play is rough. LV 20 brings what seems like a new / different playing field – LV 18 and 19’s can’t go a lot places the LV 20’s can so there is often a split in these groups of players - the XP needed to go from 18 to 20 a TR is a lot – worst part of the grind at any level. When the level cap was 20, Raiding would allow you to cost from 18 to 20 (TOD, VOD, Hound, Shroud, etc) – now those are rarely ran for XP or at all. (big problem here)

    4) Taking away ED XP is totally unacceptable- lots of people will be gone forever. This could single handily kill this game by having a lot of people quite at the same time

    5) Raiding needs to be fixed. I would love to see the old raids touched up an released on EPIC levels – enhance N,H,E – make them more stepped… 20, 22, 24 LV for example. YES need to add new raids as well- the new raids don’t always need to be at the level cap either

    6) I would love to see a special token drop in raids that can be collected and used in a barter system. A nice collection of rare items (TOD boot ingredients, high level special crafting ingredients, EPIC updates / augments / seals / etc.) Give people a reason to run all the raids by allowing them to take steps towards a common goal.

    7) To help with the LV 20 – max ED – 3 full twist character “unbalancing” the level 20-25 game play – I would meter in the twists. At 20 you can switch / access any of your ED – have all your fate points - but not be allowed to twist anything. At 21 you get 1 allowed twist, at 23, the 2nd and at 25 the third.

    8) When you EPIC TR – grant a few fate points (3-6) for use in next life. This would encourage TRing without senseless fate pint grinding.

    9) Allow an EPIC TR to gain another twist (LV 27ish)


    I am looking forward to more Dev conversation on this topic!

    Thanks,

    Propane.
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