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  1. #1041
    Community Member Seikojin's Avatar
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    For me, meh, I like the features and even if my ED's are wiped per reincarnation, I won't mind. It isn't like the grind is that long for ED's.

    I think a choice between Epic TR and normal TR would be the best mitigation. Have Kruz have a 4th dialog option?
    Last edited by IWCoppercrest; 06-15-2013 at 10:11 PM.

  2. #1042
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    Rather than wiping the entire ED set, how about: When reincarnating, prompt the person to designate which ED they want to use for their epic reincarnation, and wipe the exp only from that ED.
    Cannith, Slicing Blow. Vilenna (18/1/1 Clonkard), Marvala (20 monk), Phrenia (19/1 rogue/fighter), Malchara (12/6/2 AA), Denaria (18/2 ...wonk?)

  3. #1043
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    I long ago gave up trying to understand or influence the DDO design process or the endless forum snarffling.
    My only comment: The proposed system, as stated in the first post of the thread, goes against what was advertised for EDs since day 1. It's so awful, I have no words. 110% sure to just uninstall if that comes to pass.
    Greebles - 20 Wiz WF, Kyarane - 20 Paladin Human, Shandria - 18 Pal / 2 Mnk Human, Grinhold - 20 FvS helf: Cannith

  4. #1044
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    Personally, you shouldn't loose the ED xp's when doing any type of TR. What they SHOULD do is keep the idea of making lvl 28 TR's bond a ED and then any bonded ED add it's level to the new starting ranking of the tr's life and each additional tr life afterwards.

    For instance..

    TR at level 28 and bond FotW with 5 levels unlocked. The new tr starts with 5 ranks (level 2).
    TR at level 28 and bond EA with 5 levels unlocked. The new tr starts with 10 ranks (level 3).
    TR at 20. No bonding of a new destany and start with 10 ranks again.
    TR at 28 and bond LD with 5 levels unlocked. The new tr starts with 15 ranks (level 4).

    Additionally, add in the option NOT to start at a higher rank if you so choose.

  5. #1045
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Please remember to ... not insult ... the Turbine development team.
    Hi. Welcome to the Internet! You must be new here

    Seriously, you should better than to call attention to insults. Dont feed the trolls, just ignore the attacks and focus on the meaningful suggestions.

  6. #1046
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOA666 View Post
    Jumping to the assumption of respect was a huge leap for you. Respect is something you earn not something you gain from time spent on forums posting wild assumptions in silly numbered lists. Please put your petty attack aside and think about the way people 'look up to' TR's because they are able to put so much time into playing DDO. They put them on a pedestal for what they would like to do but cant. That is my point.

    My personal insomnia case in point proves your assumptions wrong. Have you stopped preening yourself after your post Mr Rooster?
    Not to put to fine a point on it, but the only people "who look up to" TRs are those that are so new they haven't figured out that capping and starting over is no big chore.

    If you were to say completionist, then yes that is a achievement worthy of some respect. For tenacity at the very least.

  7. #1047
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citzen_Gkar View Post
    Actually I'm not totally sure that's the white elephant. People are upset about the ED XP loss because the ED XP system sucks the big one. To make people happy they would probably have to:

    1) Do something to grandfather the old ED XP from before U20
    2) Change the ED XP system to detach ED XP from your active destiny. Let me designate 1 ED as my active for the purpose of abilities and 1 ED as active for the purpose of receiving XP. This would make the entire Epic game more fun, and thus people wouldn't be so very protective of their ED XP. And frankly making the game more fun without any reduction in work is a good thing period. Make it so and the devs are heros and will revitalize epics.
    When I multi-classed PnP, the DM would grant XP for each class separately based on how much each was used in an encounter. If I rushed my Ftr/Rog into combat and killed mobs outright, I got Ftr xp, but no Rog xp because I didn't use any Rogue skills. The same thing applies here; why should anyone get XP for an ED that is not active? Just because you don't like it? If an ED doesn't synergize with your build, then you have the option of TR'ing to a more appropriate build before leveling up said ED. It just adds another phase of planning to character development. Otherwise, sure, go ahead and run your melee with Magister, but remember it was your choice to do so in the first place.


    This would be a good way to deal with my item #1 above. It still doesn't however fix the longer term problem with the ED/TR mechanic they are proposing.
    Actually, it does. Level to 20, set the boring or unfun ED to active, then burn two 1M XP stones. Poof! the unfun ED is now capped.
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  8. #1048
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    Ill honestly say Im tired of all TR thingy in ddo.
    Its great if u get bored with character and want to change to different race and/or class but... As sth giving more power its just not fun. I mean if it was 3 trs giving more power - thats ok. But if you have more character going thro the same over and over is just boring.
    And take lots of time.
    TRing is thing that really makes me ... well... there are moments when I just want to stop playing because "Ill never be able to get the past lifes I need to be better e.g. caster, and completionist? for me its like 3-4 years of constant playing - no chances".
    Heroic TR is one thing - past lifes are not that :must have:.
    But considering there should be recompensate for 20 millions of lost xp when ETR and all fate points - the benefits will be big. So ppl who wont do it will stay a lot behind others who will do it.

    Theres so many games with no TRs or such things - and they keep players playing with end game content.
    I miss times when there was like 6+ epic packs worth running on end game. I miss times when epics couldnt be bought - when getting them was achievment because it needed scroll+seal+shard+item.
    Right now the end game is fot+citw+TR.

    Please devs - you do great job with new quests - I love these little shadow monsters in the new lvl 15 quests - theyre really amazing.
    Stop with this TR absurd and focus on creating lots of lvl 25-28 epics to make real end game.

    Because of TRing ddo feels more like job than game - when you know youre 10 lifes from your final - fun build it just feels tireding.

    I know - no ones forces me to TR. But when I build a character I like - you make changes to game which makes my character useless... and then I am forced to TR once again.
    And now Ill also loose all my ED when its not my fault I have to TR.
    Im kinda tired of developers changing their vision of game and how things work over and over and over making it impossible to plan a character and just play with it for fun.

    I make DC based wizzard - puff - epic ward, no monsters instant killable. So what I can do when instantkills are what I specced for? I TR.
    Then epic ward is deleted - good thing but I already did TR. So to come bk to my favourite first toon I have to TR once again.
    Then I settle on some character. Puff.
    AC/PPR/to-hit/dodge changes - its ok, I cant say I dont like them. But it makes me have to remake all my character to not be one-shotted.
    Then - puff - soon to be enhancements change hanging in SOON future - I dont know what to do with my character now...
    Then the new enhancements are switched somewhere to absatract future - puff EDS.
    So OK - I buy them and farm them to max.
    And TR to mage.
    PUFF - wail not working, crit line not working. So TR again.. thi time to FVS.
    Puff - ETR changes hanging.

    Come on.. I feel like Im on some sort of rollercoaster.
    What makes DDO special is possibility to make unique character and to plan it on your own.
    Its hard to do when everything is changing so fast.
    And its taking away all my fun cause I never feel like I accomplished something. Theres always so much more work to do - before I can just go and sit on cap and simply raid and epic quest with friends.
    Much more work to do is good - but doing the same work like with TR over and over again is not fun. Being forced to do it because of game changes over and over is also not fun. Being forced to give up a lot (like EDs) during it is even less fun.

    Devs... just make up your mind about what you wanna do with the game and tell us already instead of doing what you do now...
    Last edited by Kayla93; 06-15-2013 at 06:56 PM.

  9. #1049
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    I am just gonna say one thing: You are killing the game. If you want to add more grind then at least do it fairly for all playstyles, including the end game ones. How about let capped characters still gain experience indefinetely and then reward a ratio of that xp into a new TR, whenever the player wishes to TR?

    That way you could stay capped, and eventually, without the sense of grind, you might buy yourself a good portion or all of your next life.

    Why punish endgamers SO MUCH?

    ATM: 10% of the servers are capped characters, what will happen after those briliant ideas of yours? 1% of server capped?

    WHY on hell do you want to punish the old players THAT much in order to go into the same emetic quests that we been doing the last 7 years over and over again?

    All I am saying is give us a window, a fair one.

  10. #1050
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citzen_Gkar View Post
    You haven't run ED have you? The system is designed for force you to run destinies that have nothing to do with your character in order to be able to run destinies that are for your character.
    Wrong. You have direct access to a destiny that enhances your class. However, if you want to build levels in other destinies without TR'ing, you need to unlock them the hard way. Grinding an ED that does not fit your build is frustrating, but we who did it made the choice to do so.

    Personally, I had a more enjoyable time of it when I realized I was stepping on my own foot, and then TR'd to a different build that could take advantage of the next ED runs I made.
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  11. #1051
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    I have nothing more to add to the destiny XP loss, other than wholeheartedly agreeing with all the criticism. But I'd like to address a few lesser issues that may have been lost in the ensuing ragestorm.

    We are eager to begin production on this system and appreciate the many players that are eager to see us fulfill the end game potential that the TR system presents. With these changes we are also keeping a long-term view for TR, such as how to expand the Epic Destiny system and continue to support level cap growth in the future.
    TR is NOT end game, it's just a grind to distract players from the LACK OF end game. I don't really know how to say this more emphatically. It is TOTALLY unacceptable for you guys not to understand this. What you should do is just scrap this crappy TR system. Just scrap it outright and focus on giving us awesome new areas, quests and raids, as even suggested by one of the more respectable devs.

    It is more than obvious to everyone that the purpose of expanding the TR system is to extract more XP elixir, hearts and otto box store purchases. Please, have more pride in your work and stop forcing on us garbage pay2win microtransactions that we didn't originally need before you changed game mechanics for us to need it. Don't you think you folks have done enough damage in the past year already to this once awesome game?

    The team is thrilled that DDO continues to grow, innovate, and provide a great D&D experience.
    Saying that DDO "continues to grow" is a flat out lie. How do you continue to be so dishonest to your customers like this, seriously. It is a fact that the server active population has been drastically reduced in the past 1-2 years by as much as 40-60%. Besides anecdotal experience by pretty much everyone with a clue, this is backed up by LOTS of data from DDOracle, among a few other sites.
    Last edited by AtomicMew; 06-15-2013 at 06:57 PM.

  12. #1052
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    Wrong. You have direct access to a destiny that enhances your class. However, if you want to build levels in other destinies without TR'ing, you need to unlock them the hard way. Grinding an ED that does not fit your build is frustrating, but we who did it made the choice to do so.

    Personally, I had a more enjoyable time of it when I realized I was stepping on my own foot, and then TR'd to a different build that could take advantage of the next ED runs I made.
    you do realize people run Magister destiny on their fighter because they are earning fate points for twists right? leveling through a destiny really isn't a long process. a lot of the complaints are about players who have already capped out those destinies as a result of earning fate points and access to things to twist out in other destinies. this possible change would wipe all that mind numbing and hundreds of hours of work just to TR and than have to do all that work again. it would be one thing if this change was implemented a year ago.

  13. #1053
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    You want this to be an option, right? That means it has to be optional so first off you would need to disable it relating to heroic TR. By the way, some people don't bypass or skip epic as some half assed exploit. They don't like the content, or maybe the current epic rules. They may well have skipped epic since epic hit ddo but now they have to? And to get what they already have? How can you possible consider that reasonable excluding that you saw dollars?

    Next issue is the Epic TR itself. DO NOT rescind your word on this. Your credibility will be absolute garbage, and it has already taken some hits, from that point on. How about Epic TR being linked to Epic lvls and I mean Epic lvls not Epic Destinies. Then you aren't a liar. Then the players don't have to miss lvls they enjoy. Then players don't have to regrind Destinies but do need to grind xp per Epic life.

    Caveat to the above, make sure you don't make lvl 28 xp requirements stupidly high. Fair xp to 28 is highly advised if you want you system used. The past life feat incidentally should be able to be chosen from existing maxed destinies. This isn't unfair, it is what used to be known as a reward for hard work, some nowadays will no doubt call anything like that "OP". The term is far too overused.

    Of course you can ignore all this and do what you want. I will vote even in the absence of any apparent right to do so.
    Last edited by Disgruntled175; 06-15-2013 at 07:32 PM.

  14. #1054
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    NWO and DDO are not really even the same category of game, and I wouldn't call either one a real MMO. NWO is a hack-and-slash arcade-style adventure. DDO is a dungeon-crawling first person shooter (FPS). I really don't think a lot of people left DDO for NWO specifically, even if they left and then went and played Neverwinter.

    DDO went into maintenance mode during that 3-day outage, after which I could tell the connections and computing power of the servers had been diminished. It is now teetering on the edge of server shutdown, because unlike Asheron's Call where there may have been some tight social ties and severe nostalgia for times past - DDO has been a miserable game design mess since the day it was conceived. In fact, the ENTIRE MMO industry is in a similar situation, with even World of Warcraft losing subscribers during a four year stretch that the internet increased in size by a factor of 10.

    Turbine itself seems to have no more interest in MMO gaming. Their latest product, if you go to www.turbine.com, is a multiplayer online battle arena (MOBA) called "Infinite Crisis."

    The sad part is that the demand for RPGs is still pretty high. J.R.R. Tolkien basically set the framework for the RPG, and the films based on his stories have grossed almost four billion dollars (the Hobbit, 300 million). The problem, as can be seen in this thread, is that the people who show up to make sure they get what they want, are the very people that drive millions of potential RPG customers away. I have seen it happen in no less than a dozen MMOs over the last seven years.

    So keep complaining about your lost investment of grinding, grueling work. The rest of us will lament the loss of play.
    Another thought provoking and constructive post from your good self. If you can accurately predict exactly when the world will end, it'll save us all a lot of hassle, thanks in advance.

    While you lament whatever you want and trot out the list of previously doomed products you have been involved with, the rest of us will try and come up with actual solutions that Turbine can implement. Like how we can end up with a a sensible Epic and Iconic TR that doesn't screw the whole Heroic TR system we currently have.

    Lets try and concentrate on the topic on hand, and keep esoteric theories on the future of MMO's to another thread that you're free to start.

  15. #1055
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    Default How I think ETR should work...

    As the stated intentions of adding Epic True Reincarntaion into the game is to encourage people to spend more time running Epic quests, I believe the following will achieve that goal while still maintaining the spirit (and promises) of the existing True Reincarnation system; without unduly punishing -or offering any advantage to- those who have already spent the time and effort of filling out their destiny map.

    With Epic True Reincarnation, we are introducing a new completionist track: Epic Completionist. Using an Epic Heart of Wood will start your character over at level 20. ETR will wipe all epic level(20-cap) xp, as well as the xp of your chosen (active and "maxed") destiny. You receive a destiny past life feat from the wiped destiny. All other (non-active) destinies will survive the ETR process. ETR will not provide a class past life.

    "Epic Advantage" would be scrapped as unnecessary/not applicable under the ^above^ system.

    Iconic True Reincarnation should be blended with Heroic True Reincarnation. Just as Veteran status only applies to a standard "first life," so does an Iconics' starting at level 15. Upon Heroic Reincarnation, Iconic Heros will start at level 1 and acquire the appropriate Iconic past life feat.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 06-15-2013 at 07:51 PM.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  16. #1056
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talonrage View Post
    Personally, you shouldn't loose the ED xp's when doing any type of TR. What they SHOULD do is keep the idea of making lvl 28 TR's bond a ED and then any bonded ED add it's level to the new starting ranking of the tr's life and each additional tr life afterwards.

    For instance..

    TR at level 28 and bond FotW with 5 levels unlocked. The new tr starts with 5 ranks (level 2).
    TR at level 28 and bond EA with 5 levels unlocked. The new tr starts with 10 ranks (level 3).
    TR at 20. No bonding of a new destany and start with 10 ranks again.
    TR at 28 and bond LD with 5 levels unlocked. The new tr starts with 15 ranks (level 4).

    Additionally, add in the option NOT to start at a higher rank if you so choose.
    Nice. I like this option, too.
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  17. #1057
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    You want this to be an option, right? That means it has to be optional so first off you would need to disable it relating to heroic TR. By the way, some people don't bypass or skip epic as some half assed exploit. They don't like the content, or maybe the current epic rules. They may well have skipped epic since epic hit ddo but now they have to? And to get what they already have? How can you possible consider that reasonable excluding that you saw dollars?
    You know, this is one of the things that I've been pondering. Apparently Turbine got the numbers that show that people aren't sticking around in the Epic levels and are focusing on Heroic levels. Now this could be for several reasons, such as not enough Epic content, dislike of Epic content, still building the perfect character for end game, preferring the journey more than the endgame, etc. So instead of focusing on things such as padding the Epic levels with more quests or variety of quests for the available levels or fixing raids (which are pretty much dead) so that they all become part of the endgame, they decided to raise the level cap another 3 levels to stretch out the thin XP already available to both level up Epic levels and EDs, while also penalizing players who enjoy a different portion of the game. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

  18. #1058
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    you do realize people run Magister destiny on their fighter because they are earning fate points for twists right? leveling through a destiny really isn't a long process. a lot of the complaints are about players who have already capped out those destinies as a result of earning fate points and access to things to twist out in other destinies. this possible change would wipe all that mind numbing and hundreds of hours of work just to TR and than have to do all that work again. it would be one thing if this change was implemented a year ago.
    I understand, and I agree with you; however, that is not what my previous post was addressing.
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  19. #1059
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citzen_Gkar View Post
    You haven't run ED have you? The system is designed for force you to run destinies that have nothing to do with your character in order to be able to run destinies that are for your character.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    Wrong. You have direct access to a destiny that enhances your class. However, if you want to build levels in other destinies without TR'ing, you need to unlock them the hard way. Grinding an ED that does not fit your build is frustrating, but we who did it made the choice to do so.

    Personally, I had a more enjoyable time of it when I realized I was stepping on my own foot, and then TR'd to a different build that could take advantage of the next ED runs I made.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    you do realize people run Magister destiny on their fighter because they are earning fate points for twists right? leveling through a destiny really isn't a long process. a lot of the complaints are about players who have already capped out those destinies as a result of earning fate points and access to things to twist out in other destinies. this possible change would wipe all that mind numbing and hundreds of hours of work just to TR and than have to do all that work again. it would be one thing if this change was implemented a year ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    I understand, and I agree with you; however, that is not what my previous post was addressing.
    I was responding to Citzen_Gkar's assertion that the ED system is designed to force people to run ED's that are incompatible with their toon's class.
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  20. #1060
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    Angry Have just read all 52 pages

    You seem closed to alternatives because its a coding/implementation issue that breaks your existing system, but statements were already made that its merely a brainstorm session right now and no actual work has been done. So if nothing is set in stone why is your creation resisting all offers to reshape it into a more acceptable form?

    All this talk of compensation only reinforces the feeling that the initial proposal is not a proposal but in fact the final incarnation of update 20. Which means further posts from game officials are just lip-service to try to prevent a community meltdown. If this assumption is wrong then please prove it with an official response that amounts to more than 'we hear your concerns, so we're trying to think of new shineys to distract you from the fact that we're going to go ahead and do it anyway, neener neener'. (Not necessarily in a response to my post, just whenever you decide to chime up again)

    While I don't think theres anything wrong with players that window farmed RB to get their destiny xp - I didn't. So when I say please keep Heroic TR completely separate from epic destiny experience, I'm not trying to save myself "a weekend of grinding", as some members put it. I'm trying to preserve the epic advancements I've earned on multiple characters via multiple TR's stretching all the way back to the summer of 2012.

    Give special attention to the grandfather idea put forth near the beginning of this thread. Because if you continue to shrug off our pleas then you have to at least *not* punish the players who bought MoTU and believed you when you said that this exact scenario would never happen. Anything less is an outright deal-breaker and I promise you will feel it in your proverbial wallet.

    I've been a VIP for 4 years. 5/6 of my guild members have been VIP for just as long if not longer. Quitting is something none of us ever discussed. Now its a very real topic amongst us. My friends list is TR buddies and EE players that I've known throughout those years and many of them are talking about quitting too. And its not a rage quit. Its the reluctant "well you just broke my favorite toy so I'm gonna go wander around and find something else to do" kind of quit.

    READ: To the vast majority of your user-base, you are punishing them for spending their money on your product. If its not obvious by now how dangerous of a move that could be, then push on and watch what happens.


    ~Alyssa Dawnfire, Leader of Vicious Cycle - Sarlona server.
    Last edited by fraterp; 06-15-2013 at 08:32 PM.

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