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  1. #961
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Default Please make loss of ED experience voluntary

    I'd suggest making it so that only experience from the "bonded" destiny is lost when one undergoes an Epic TR, then gains the past life feat and a number of experience points. At the very least, it would be nice to be able to skip the harbor and marketplace quests.

    Also...

    One of the flaws of the epic destiny system is the amount of time one has to spend getting experience in an ED that does not benefit ones' character. Now, if it's really necessary for players to lose any of those experience points, then something needs to change in the system in order to reduce the amount of grinding. Some suggestions:

    1) Make it so that epic levels give caster levels for any spell-casting classes, and uncouple caster levels from ED levels.

    2) Remove the ED level requirements for getting from one ED sphere to another, put in connections between spheres so that on one has to go through the martial sphere unless they want to, or get rid of the map entirely.

    3) Somehow make twist of fate slots easier to aquire and/or upgrade. Perhaps you could give out fate points when leveling up instead of with ED levels?

  2. #962
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    Default Long Post Warning: Summary of Proposed Options with Analysis

    ---- Warning: Long post, read at your own risk ----

    Development Team,

    I was fortunate enough to meet with a bunch of you at PAX East this year and know from that experience that you are a great bunch of folks (who I would be happy to drink with anytime btw). From those conversations I understand your dismay that players hit lvl 25 and then proceeded to max out epic destinies, when you intention was that people hit 25, play with destiny’s that are complementary and then TR into another class, hit 25 and max out destiny’s that are complementary to that class. The proposal put forward by Glin is completely consistent with that thinking. Had it gone live a year ago, many in the community would see it as a great idea – unfortunately, hindsight is 20-20 and the water is over the dam on epic destinies (yes, I did just use two idioms in the same sentence).

    I understand both sides of the issue. You believed that you were designing a system that would keep players busy for a long time. The flaw in your logic is that many players get a build in mind and then farm out the Past Lives, Gear, Destinies, and Fate Points to realize that build.

    Your player base (which has a higher percentage of “spreadsheet gamers” due to the wealth of options and choices that DDO give us over other MMOs) saw a number of twistable abilities, three slots, and the requirement to farm a number of (in some cases) useless destinies to unlock those abilities, allowing them to create the toon that they created on paper (character planners, spreadsheets, etc.). The result was fairly predictable knowing your player base, and was done in the most efficient method possible (in many cases).

    Now we are at a crossroads. You are planning to implement a system solves your problem, but in doing so creates considerable angst among the player base. The player are enraged because they spent considerable time (and money) to get the fate points necessary to get the twists their builds called for, and now they are being told that that investment was for naught and are understandably upset due to the revelation.
    So where do we go from here?

    Option 1: Implement the TR changes exactly as implemented in Glin’s post.

    Advantages:
    1 - Development team achieves their goal of having ED completion a (very) long-term goal
    2 – Potential ability to sell more ‘shortcuts’ (xp pots/tomes, stones, tomes of fate) in the store increasing short-term revenue

    Disadvantages:
    1 – Significant numbers of players with advanced progress in EDs will refuse to TR, depriving new players of an active base of existing players to group with eventually this will make the game severely unfriendly to new players leading to the decline of the game.
    2 – Epic Advantage will enable veteran players to skip the lower levels again depriving new players of an active player base to group with.
    3 – Reduction in TRing by Veteran players, reducing the purchase of xp pots, stones, and True hearts that are consumed during that process (personally this and raid timers is where most of my purchases go these days).
    4 – Significant customer dis-satisfaction on the part of the existing player (which are more important than ever if you are making it difficult for new players to get into the game).

    Option 2: Community suggestion to have the TR process only reset the ‘bonded’ destiny

    Advantages:
    1 - Development team achieves their goal of having ED completion a (very) long-term goal as many vets will want the new TR benefits to improve their toons (achieves similar effect as option 1, but in a different and more player friendly way)
    2 – Allows players that have put the time/effort/money into grinding out fate points to keep the majority of what they invested while leveling
    3 – Functionally the same as Option 1 for players that have not yet invested in EDs

    Disadvantages:
    1 – Fewer overall ED Past life’s / per player on average will likely be ran do to the lack of need to bind all ED’s to reclaim fate points (although overall ED PLs will likely be higher as many will chose to opt out completely with Option 1)
    2 – Epic Advantage will enable veteran players to skip the lower levels again depriving new players of an active player base to group with.

    Option 3: Community suggestion to make epic advantage optional.

    Advantages:
    1 – Gives players maximum flexibility
    2 – Allows players that have put the time/effort/money into grinding out fate points to keep the they invested while TRing

    Disadvantages:
    1 – Unless ED Pls are vastly overpowered, they will likely never be considered
    2 – Epic Advantage will enable veteran players to skip the lower levels again depriving new players of an active player base to group with.
    3 – High likelihood that epic PLs will not achieve any of the projects goals

    Option 4: Recommended Option - Similar to Option 2, except remove the free ranks from epic advantage – this removes the primary disadvantage of option 2 (not keeping all content active) with all the benefits. If you really want to give an xp boost make it a percentage basis, but honestly I don’t think it is necessary if you only make us re-earn one ED at a time, and bonuses given for that effort (in the form of epic PLs). Players are happy, Dev goals are achieved, many xp pots/tomes/stones will still be bought due to the bonus from ED PLs, and the game will remain active at all levels.

    If you can give additional clarity on the outcome that you are attempting to achieve with these changes I can refine my analysis to suit. In the absence of that, I made the assumption that the goal was to maintain a growing a healthy game, while maximizing revenue.

    Thank you for reading

    -Ash

  3. #963
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    If they implement EDTR such that one starts over at level 1 (level 15 for Iconic), then there would really no longer be a "wrong" or "off" destiny, unless one fails to plan. Should one choose to pursue ED PL's, then the choice of class should complement the next target ED or sphere.

    From what I have read, it seems that those who chose to level up Magister on a melee, or Dreadnought on a caster, were not showing much interest in TR'ing in the first place.

    Also, from what I am reading, it seems the real fast-track for EDTR runs is to cycle through the Iconics for their PL's x3. Two birds with one stone, nicht wehr?
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  4. #964
    Community Member Cleanincubus's Avatar
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    Default

    Didn't read the entire thread, so I'm not sure if this was brought up yet.

    But no love for "regular" Epic TR? As in those of us who have Adventure Packs, that include Epic content, even though we choose not to purchase the Epic Destinies?

    Personally, I'd much rather spend my money to get more content, rather than Epic Destinies (a pay-to-win of sorts IMHO). So I, and players like myself, get nothing for our Epic levels? Our time is completely wasted, other than items we get to use again once we hit lvl 20 in our next life?

    Doesn't seem fair, if the Developers are going to spend so much time creating a new Epic TR system (& Iconic TR), rather than creating new content. Seems like a HUGE waste of time, especially after reading most of the comments I did actually read. Appears the easiest thing to do is just do nothing. Nothing as in allow players to keep their Epic Destinies after they TR, and keep Epic TR the same as Heroic TR in all other regards. Otherwise make Epic TR'ing beneficial to ALL players, and not just those who have Epic Destinies.

  5. #965
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnhelm View Post
    Cordovan, I have a lot of respect for you and the effort you put into your work here. However, reading Piloto's quote above yours I can only gather that no matter what we say on these forums, the Epic Destiny xp loss is going to happen with TR's. There is no mention in his post about other possibilities, only that different forms of compensation for Epic Destiny xp loss are being considered. At least, that's how I read it.
    It does seem that there will be no budging from the loss of ED XP, as you said. Which is really sad, since we were told that we would not loss ED XP when they were trying to sell the ED system to us. As can be seen here in one of Turbine's promotions of Epic Destinies: http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us


    Quote Originally Posted by excerpt of Epic Destiny Developer Roundtable
    Steve: With Menace of the Underdark we're making a clear distinction between Heroic and Epic levels. From Epic levels 21 to 25 there are no Heroic class levels or Enhancements; it's all focused on Epic levels and additional customization through swappable Epic Destinies. Heroic levels still use Enhancements to help shape a character, of course.

    David: Where it gets extra interesting is we're allowing players to swap and level Epic Destinies independently of one another.

    Kyle: What are the drawbacks of swapping an Epic Destiny, if any?

    Ian: It's actually beneficial to swap, sooner or later. We want to encourage players to swap between Epic Destinies, which is why any progress made in any Epic Destiny is shelved until you switch back to it.
    and...

    Quote Originally Posted by excerpt of Epic Destiny Developer Roundtable

    David: In case anyone is wondering, any Epic Destiny progress made on a character will remain even after True Reincarnation. Until reaching level 20 again, you can't restart work on Epic Destinies. Until you re-level to 20, all Epic Destiny progress on that character is paused.

    Max Nichols: Also, like re-doing a character through True Reincarnation, if you take an Epic Destiny and later decide it's not for you, it's not a dead-end. You can always branch out in another direction. You're never locked into any Epic Destiny, and eventually you can unlock them all.
    It's just bad form to state that things will work one way to help sell it, then turn around change the rules completely from the way they were pitched to the consumer.
    Last edited by oradafu; 06-15-2013 at 01:37 AM.

  6. #966
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleanincubus View Post
    Didn't read the entire thread, so I'm not sure if this was brought up yet.

    But no love for "regular" Epic TR? As in those of us who have Adventure Packs, that include Epic content, even though we choose not to purchase the Epic Destinies?

    Personally, I'd much rather spend my money to get more content, rather than Epic Destinies (a pay-to-win of sorts IMHO). So I, and players like myself, get nothing for our Epic levels? Our time is completely wasted, other than items we get to use again once we hit lvl 20 in our next life?

    Doesn't seem fair, if the Developers are going to spend so much time creating a new Epic TR system (& Iconic TR), rather than creating new content. Seems like a HUGE waste of time, especially after reading most of the comments I did actually read. Appears the easiest thing to do is just do nothing. Nothing as in allow players to keep their Epic Destinies after they TR, and keep Epic TR the same as Heroic TR in all other regards. Otherwise make Epic TR'ing beneficial to ALL players, and not just those who have Epic Destinies.
    Apparently you missed the memo that Turbine wants players to now focus almost strictly on their new endgame: the grinding and re-grinding of 21.78 million XP for Epic Destinies. It doesn't matter that there's not enough content to keep players interested from levels 20 to 25 (soon to be 28). It doesn't matter that many classes and builds don't mesh with certain EDs making the ED grind even less unfun than the EDs that do work well. It doesn't matter that some people, like you, aren't interested in EDs at all. It doesn't matter that some people don't care about epic levels and/or quests and prefer the Heroic levels and quests. It doesn't matter for a whole set of other reasons...

    They want everyone to stop playing in the Heroic levels and focus on the ED grind. Welcome to the new endgame.

  7. #967
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    When epic levels were introduced there was a line drawn. Epic level are totally different than heroic levels. similarly epic destinies are independent of epic level. That is the way thins were set up.

    Since these distinctions were made why should an epic TR have anything to do with a heroic TR?

    When I look at my character sheet I show X amount heroic levels per class up to 20 levels then I see X amount epic levels.

    If the point is to get us to play end game then let us start at 20 again level to 28 then go back to 20 and repeat as many times as we like.

    If the point is to get us to play the whole game again with this proposed change then at least let us level through each past life with decreased xp instead of the over inflated mess you have now.

    I don't mind past lives, in fact I have done roughly 30 (sorry not spread sheet type and I stopped counting long ago)
    if I can enjoy the game instead of worrying about grinding I will be more inclined to do so and would actually invite more new players along without the fear of them slowing me down, or costing me xp. I would be more likely to take the time to do things I feel are fun instead of grinding the high xp quests over and over and over. (by the way not many if any of the high xp/min quests are the fun ones) All in all I would probably not be so against all of this if there was no need for me to grind. I could play the game and enjoy my time getting my epic destinies back, Maybe this might actually get me to try new builds I would like to test while doing past lives if I didn't fear the grind on a build im not happy with.

    I sincerely love the game and hope the developers can come up with something to please the most people possible.

  8. #968
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    ---- Warning: Long post, read at your own risk ----

    Development Team,

    I was fortunate enough to meet with a bunch of you at PAX East this year and know from that experience that you are a great bunch of folks (who I would be happy to drink with anytime btw). From those conversations I understand your dismay that players hit lvl 25 and then proceeded to max out epic destinies, when you intention was that people hit 25, play with destiny’s that are complementary and then TR into another class, hit 25 and max out destiny’s that are complementary to that class. The proposal put forward by Glin is completely consistent with that thinking. Had it gone live a year ago, many in the community would see it as a great idea – unfortunately, hindsight is 20-20 and the water is over the dam on epic destinies (yes, I did just use two idioms in the same sentence).

    I understand both sides of the issue. You believed that you were designing a system that would keep players busy for a long time. The flaw in your logic is that many players get a build in mind and then farm out the Past Lives, Gear, Destinies, and Fate Points to realize that build.

    Your player base (which has a higher percentage of “spreadsheet gamers” due to the wealth of options and choices that DDO give us over other MMOs) saw a number of twistable abilities, three slots, and the requirement to farm a number of (in some cases) useless destinies to unlock those abilities, allowing them to create the toon that they created on paper (character planners, spreadsheets, etc.). The result was fairly predictable knowing your player base, and was done in the most efficient method possible (in many cases).

    Now we are at a crossroads. You are planning to implement a system solves your problem, but in doing so creates considerable angst among the player base. The player are enraged because they spent considerable time (and money) to get the fate points necessary to get the twists their builds called for, and now they are being told that that investment was for naught and are understandably upset due to the revelation.
    So where do we go from here?

    Option 1: Implement the TR changes exactly as implemented in Glin’s post.

    Advantages:
    1 - Development team achieves their goal of having ED completion a (very) long-term goal
    2 – Potential ability to sell more ‘shortcuts’ (xp pots/tomes, stones, tomes of fate) in the store increasing short-term revenue

    Disadvantages:
    1 – Significant numbers of players with advanced progress in EDs will refuse to TR, depriving new players of an active base of existing players to group with eventually this will make the game severely unfriendly to new players leading to the decline of the game.
    2 – Epic Advantage will enable veteran players to skip the lower levels again depriving new players of an active player base to group with.
    3 – Reduction in TRing by Veteran players, reducing the purchase of xp pots, stones, and True hearts that are consumed during that process (personally this and raid timers is where most of my purchases go these days).
    4 – Significant customer dis-satisfaction on the part of the existing player (which are more important than ever if you are making it difficult for new players to get into the game).

    Option 2: Community suggestion to have the TR process only reset the ‘bonded’ destiny

    Advantages:
    1 - Development team achieves their goal of having ED completion a (very) long-term goal as many vets will want the new TR benefits to improve their toons (achieves similar effect as option 1, but in a different and more player friendly way)
    2 – Allows players that have put the time/effort/money into grinding out fate points to keep the majority of what they invested while leveling
    3 – Functionally the same as Option 1 for players that have not yet invested in EDs

    Disadvantages:
    1 – Fewer overall ED Past life’s / per player on average will likely be ran do to the lack of need to bind all ED’s to reclaim fate points (although overall ED PLs will likely be higher as many will chose to opt out completely with Option 1)
    2 – Epic Advantage will enable veteran players to skip the lower levels again depriving new players of an active player base to group with.

    Option 3: Community suggestion to make epic advantage optional.

    Advantages:
    1 – Gives players maximum flexibility
    2 – Allows players that have put the time/effort/money into grinding out fate points to keep the they invested while TRing

    Disadvantages:
    1 – Unless ED Pls are vastly overpowered, they will likely never be considered
    2 – Epic Advantage will enable veteran players to skip the lower levels again depriving new players of an active player base to group with.
    3 – High likelihood that epic PLs will not achieve any of the projects goals

    Option 4: Recommended Option - Similar to Option 2, except remove the free ranks from epic advantage – this removes the primary disadvantage of option 2 (not keeping all content active) with all the benefits. If you really want to give an xp boost make it a percentage basis, but honestly I don’t think it is necessary if you only make us re-earn one ED at a time, and bonuses given for that effort (in the form of epic PLs). Players are happy, Dev goals are achieved, many xp pots/tomes/stones will still be bought due to the bonus from ED PLs, and the game will remain active at all levels.

    If you can give additional clarity on the outcome that you are attempting to achieve with these changes I can refine my analysis to suit. In the absence of that, I made the assumption that the goal was to maintain a growing a healthy game, while maximizing revenue.

    Thank you for reading

    -Ash
    I like this post, the devs should read it. I am really partial to option 2/4 but then ..lol.

    I should note in my post I would have thought it obvious most peeps wouldn't care if we don't get any xp from the bonded destiny xp we would lose, alternately we could get just a few ranks from that one lvl 5 bonded destiny alternately we could choose to not use it as well.

    One question in option 2/4 when you bond a destiny you say we get ED past life do we also get the heroic past life? I think we should. I am of the opinion A HTR should give what we currently get when we TR (the heroic bonuses) and a ETR should give us both the HTR stuff and the ETR bonuses.

    Great post btw makes things clear and simple and hopefully the devs/management will see how very very bad for the game option one would be!
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  9. #969
    The Hatchery samthedagger's Avatar
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    Okay, now that I have caught up with this thread, I am going to post my thoughts because this is something I care about.

    I find myself sharing the sentiments of the vast majority of other players here in that I like most of what has been posted about the upcoming changes EXCEPT THE LOSS OF EPIC DESTINY XP. Here is the issue, the way I see it. The new system is not a bad deal for new players. They can join the game just as the new Epic TR system is coming out and not have to worry about losing much form Epic Destinies because honestly, the rules aren't that bad for them. They can level up to 28 then do an Epic TR with only 2 or 3 EDs capped (not sure how the final XP tally will look at this point but that is what I am estimating) and they only lose 1 or two EDs worth of XP when they TR. On the other hand, those of us with characters who have capped ALL of their EDs have put a fair amount of time into it. Giving them some conversion of Heroic experience when they TR is just not acceptable for the amount of time they have put into it.

    Here are a few rhetorical questions to consider. Can you cap all existing EDs in a single weekend? Yes, I have done it. Here's how it worked. I played one quest (House of Rusted Blades) from Friday night all through to Sunday evening with few a breaks in between. That was a lot of time, but the reward was worth it. I can do about the same with taking a TR from 1 to 20 (if I really want to). Do I want to do this all the time? No, not at all. Standing on top of a bell for a 2 minutes then fighting the same boss for thirty seconds repeated over the course of about 40 hours is not a lot of fun. But at the time, I was promised that when I TR, I will never have to level up my EDs again, so I considered it a worthy investment of my time. Now in compensation you are offering some bonus heroic XP for losing almost all of those 40 hours of work if I choose to TR again (and it was work, it was not much fun at all).

    When I TR, I gain a tangible benefit each time I do it. Now at a leisurely pace (for me), I can TR once every two weeks. That benefit is useful to me for my entire next life from 1-20. Epic is a different ball game. Playing epic difficulties is very challenging without playing with a maxed out ED. And I am not talking about challenging in an exciting and interesting way. It is challenging in a resource intensive way. I have to use Yugo pots, Major mnemonic pots, loads of scrolls, etc. However if I am in capped destiny none of those resources are necessary. So every time I have to change over to a new destiny I am hamstringing myself. I don't think you've been clear on the bonded EDs, but if what you have implied is correct my bonded ED feat might not be useful to me unless I am in that ED. Even if it is otherwise useful, I am not playing the same as I was when I was doing Heroic TRs. Heroic TRs increase in power with each TR throughout the leveling process so that it is actually easier to level from 1-20 with each life. Epic TRs are going to be relatively weak in power compared Heroic TRs in this respect because the vast majority of your power in Epic content is derived from your EDs and those precious twists.

    I think you need to take an entirely different tack with this. Reward us for EACH Epic Destiny that we have capped. For each Epic Destiny we have capped, give us an ED passive past life feat or bonus ranks (that can exceed the maximum) for that Epic Destiny or something like that. That way it isn't a complete waste of time. Translating ED experience earned in a previous life into heroic ranks is not an acceptable trade-off for me or almost everyone else posting to this thread and probably playing the game as well. Here are some examples:

    1) After an Epic TR, all capped Epic Destinies grant a passive past life feat. Make the feats minor but tangible benefits which make leveling in your next life through epic levels easier much like TRing grants minor but tangible benefits which make leveling easier. It therefore gives a greater benefit to those who capped all of their destinies over someone who has capped only two or three, which is quite fair, considering that those who capped all 11 spent a lot more time than someone who capped two or three. Some examples: Exalted Angel grants +1 divine spellcaster level and +10 positive and light spellpower. Legendary Dreadnought grants +1 [W] damage on all tactical feat attacks. Draconic Incarnation grants +1 arcane caster level and +10 to all energy spellpower. Primal Avatar grants all hirelings, summoned creatures, and companions +2 to attack, damage, and saving throws and +10 PRR.

    2) After an Epic TR, you are given at least 1 bonus rank in each Epic Destiny which you have capped which allows you to exceed the standard maximum rank limit.

    3) In addition the benefits of a bonded Epic Destiny and associated passive life feat for that bonded ED, after an Epic TR, you are granted 1 bonus rank for each level which you previously earned in Epic Destinies. For example, if you leveled an ED up to level 5 in a previous life, you would begin the next life as rank 5 (starting rank of 0 + 5) in that ED. So if all your EDs were capped when you Epic TRd, all of your EDs would automatically start at level 1 with four ranks to spend. If you repeat the process of capping all EDs again, your next life all EDs would start at rank 10 (starting rank 0 + 10). And so on, until eventually at your sixth Epic TR would would automatically start at rank 29 in all Epic Destinies and never have to worry about leveling up EDs again.

    4) Let us keep all Fate Points earned in a previous life (which are really the main reasons we leveled the "useless" destinies in the first place). In addition, either A: give Epic TRs an additional twist slot (with the same EDP cost as the third twist slot) for each bonded ED up to maximum of six twist slots OR B: give Epic TRs the ability to twist in +1 extra tier for each Epic TR (to a maximum of tier six) keeping the existing tier cost formula for each twist slot (so slot one would cost 1/2/3/4/5/6, slot two would cost 2/3/4/5/6/7 and slot three would cost 3/4/5/6/7/8).

  10. #970
    The Hatchery samthedagger's Avatar
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    I will also post as a corollary that I agree with those who say that simply making Heroic TR an option which does NOT erase ED XP an option would be completely acceptable. Thus, if you want to simply perform a Heroic TR in the way in which the game is currently working, then you may. You start off at level 1 and keep all your ED XP. If you are willing to accept to the loss of all ED XP and do the Epic TR, then you have that option of using the Epic TR. I see no need to do away with Heroic TR the way it is currently implemented. Leave Epic TR solely for those who don't mind losing their ED XP or those who have already achieved Completionist or Uber Completionist and want to simply move on to the next XP grind.

  11. #971
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    Quote Originally Posted by rosedarkthorn View Post
    There is absolutely nothing you could possibly implement to make losing all my hard earned ED's okay for me. Nothing.
    This.
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  12. #972
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post


    2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.
    If you're insistent on having TR remove epic xp, preserving fate points is an absolute must. I can't even imagine any other compensation that would justify an epic TR without them. The fate points represent months of work for most people. And it was months of tedious work, doing Rusted Blades literally hundreds of times.

    But preserving fate points makes losing the epic xp kind of ok, since fate points are the major reason that people went through that work in the first place. There really can't be any substitute.

    I would also suggest that any destinies that were unlocked during a first life remain unlocked after TR, so say an arcane who took the magister past life can immediately jump into Shiradi (provided it was unlocked in the previous life) when he gets to 20 even though he has no epic xp at all.

  13. #973
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    ...

    Option 1: Implement the TR changes exactly as implemented in Glin’s post.
    ...
    Option 2: Community suggestion to have the TR process only reset the ‘bonded’ destiny
    ...
    Option 3: Community suggestion to make epic advantage optional.
    ...
    Option 4: Recommended Option - Similar to Option 2, except remove the free ranks from epic advantage – this removes the primary disadvantage of option 2 (not keeping all content active) with all the benefits.
    ...
    Well it seems some players really enjoy the lower levels and TR to play that content again. Other players want to focus more at the higher level but TR to get some advantages in form of PL. Some players aren't concerned about loosing their ED while others wouldn't want to replay a caster ED on a melee character and vice versa. I like your sum up, but it's probably hard to get everybody in one boat.

    You could even add an option 5, where you get XP stones a 100K XP for each 100K XP in the ED tree, that could be used whenever the player want to. Or add the trainer from Lamannia into the real world, that propose you your banked XP in chunks when you request them. E.g. to skip some level content he dislike, not provide enough quests or to catch up with buddies. But still what is with fate points, destiny keys etc.?

    I guess if we leave heroic TR untouched players could opt for running the heroic game all over again, while the other players with epic TR would lose the ED XP but would earn EPL and due to the epic advantage could skip most of the low level content. While in the lower levels I do play also with new guild members that not yet have any character above 10, so this is an other reason to play that heroic part. It give choices, and more choices are always good.

    Probably Turbine had seen that they sold a lot of Otto Boxes and maybe assumed everybody want to skip the heroic content which lead to the idea of the epic advantage. However with the current proposed system I don't see how heroic TR make sense at all anymore in the future as one would loose more then on an epic TR. However there is just not enough interesting epic content out yet to go to 28. In other words would stop the TRing for the next foreseeable future.
    * We have collectable bags, hell even hireling folders, but can I have that 6-pack for my potions please?
    * Having already a past life on the dieng EU servers, I rerolled here and started from scratch as I like the game and the community, so lets see what awaits me here

  14. #974
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    Thumbs up XP Stones that you can use at any time on your TR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    It has been made clear that the devs are paying attention to this thread.

    It is also clear that the elephant in the room is the undercompensated loss of unbound ED XP.

    I am guessing that the devs have a good reason for wanting to wipe pre-existing ED XP, while also providing a way to make it permanent once again. :@

    So, compensate each FIRST ETR with 1M XP Stones for every one million unbound ED XP, and put them in the TR cache. BtC and usable only on said character, but they can be moved to normal storage, and unused stones shall survive subsequent TR's; the player can spend them when he/she will.

    This should silence the majority of the objections to the new TR mechanic.

    (But then, should and would don't build any bridges. )
    Now this idea i like. XP stones that you can use at any time on your TR.

  15. #975
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

    We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.
    I like this idea. However, I'd like it, as someone suggested, through the form of "xp stones." That way, we could play where we enjoy, and skip levels we consider grindy (most players would skip 18-20). Granting 1 million xp stones per million epic xp (or however you calculate that based on your Epic:Heroic conversion) produces the additional benefit of increased player control - always a positive.

    If the experience we get is added on, without our input or choice, we are simply getting a "free" past life for the epic xp. Yes, we'd get to pick the life (whatever class we consider boring, I guess), but it would remove the tangible benefit of 1) having one or more xp stones and 2) choosing when to use them.

    Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

    1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).
    Well, that's good to know. You're creating this scenario:

    1. Players who want their EDs and endgame content have to purchase the latest expansion, or become Heroic TR-only.
    2. We should get our Heroic TRing done now, b/c our EDs will remain up until Update 20
    3. There may be no real point in doing endgame for experience right now, but we could work on bringing our alts up to cap if we don't plan on TRing them. So it's a great time to farm EDs on non-mains that will never TR, but a bad time to work on our mains.

    2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

    Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.
    It's good you're aware of these issues. I'm not really sure how I feel about keeping the fate points, to be honest. If I'm going to trade in my ED experience for palpable heroic benefit, it's not so bad to earn them all again if the grind is minimized through enjoyable content. On the other hand, I don't want to play every single class/ED to cap, then do it again. That's too much work.

    In light of the grind being too much work, it would be nice to keep my current earned fate points.

  16. #976
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    Quote Originally Posted by samthedagger View Post
    I will also post as a corollary that I agree with those who say that simply making Heroic TR an option which does NOT erase ED XP an option would be completely acceptable. Thus, if you want to simply perform a Heroic TR in the way in which the game is currently working, then you may. You start off at level 1 and keep all your ED XP. If you are willing to accept to the loss of all ED XP and do the Epic TR, then you have that option of using the Epic TR. I see no need to do away with Heroic TR the way it is currently implemented. Leave Epic TR solely for those who don't mind losing their ED XP or those who have already achieved Completionist or Uber Completionist and want to simply move on to the next XP grind.
    If you loose ED XP in every kind of TR except heroic TR, the majority of the players would simply do only heroic TR. Piloto already wrote it, they don't like us playing on heroic levels, they want us to play their (crappy) end game content. So the real question is, why they want us to stop playing on heroic levels? It's about their ego? Or is just about Turbine based in Boston, and it looks like they replace a Brady for a Tebow, so they wanna toss their frustrations and anger to us??

  17. #977
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    Default This will split the playerbase.

    Under the current system, player1, player2 and player3 are free to TR or play around epic content, at their leisure.

    With the new system, player1 who likes (heroic) TR will probably ignore epic content totally, leaving that part of the game untouched. He will TR the second he reaches 20, ignoring epic content.

    Player2 does epics, enough that even the thought of losing all the progress prevents any TR forever. He stays at 28.

    Player3 gets to 28, notices that any further time spent in epics is a waste of time, so he TR:s soon, ignoring any further epic content until the next life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play.
    Maybe so, but even hinting about the losing of epic destinies creates a strong incentive to avoid epic play right now. After the fact it will only maintain that incentive to a part of the population (players 1 and somewhat player3 in my example).

    This separation is not a good thing. Player1 and player2 will never ever ever be in the same party. Players 1 and 3 might meet by luck, but if they try to TR at the same time, odds are one of them will start so far apart due to the epic disadvantage, that they won't be able to play together. Players 2 and 3 will be able to party together for a few quests, when player3 has progressed through most of the epic levels, but for levels from 1 to 24-25 he will not party with player2.

    TL;DR
    If gaining further epic exp is lost (converted to heroic, whatever), there's no point making more epic exp. Removing any incentive to play epics is a weird way to try to promote epic level play.

  18. #978
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    Wow. I left almost a year ago (when the enhancement pass was right around the corner, yea) and just now chimed in to see what the new expansion was going to be about, to find this. Turbine at it's best really. Seriously, *** where you guys thinking with that?

    So anybody who TRs in the future is going to enjoy trading millions of xp for some ranks starting at level one? Think for a moment, what do I get when I do epic TRs in the future, when I didn't just start with a fully leveled tree? I get to start at ****ing level 2? For real? That shaves off about 15 minutes off the whole TR process. The thought that this is complete bullcrap should really have occured to anyone even taking as long as to write this ****.

    Anyway, guess I'll just turn around and leave again...
    Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Math never helps solve problems, it only further complicates them.

  19. #979
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDOForumAccount View Post
    Under the current system, player1, player2 and player3 are free to TR or play around epic content, at their leisure.

    With the new system, player1 who likes (heroic) TR will probably ignore epic content totally, leaving that part of the game untouched. He will TR the second he reaches 20, ignoring epic content.

    Player2 does epics, enough that even the thought of losing all the progress prevents any TR forever. He stays at 28.

    Player3 gets to 28, notices that any further time spent in epics is a waste of time, so he TR:s soon, ignoring any further epic content until the next life.



    Maybe so, but even hinting about the losing of epic destinies creates a strong incentive to avoid epic play right now. After the fact it will only maintain that incentive to a part of the population (players 1 and somewhat player3 in my example).

    This separation is not a good thing. Player1 and player2 will never ever ever be in the same party. Players 1 and 3 might meet by luck, but if they try to TR at the same time, odds are one of them will start so far apart due to the epic disadvantage, that they won't be able to play together. Players 2 and 3 will be able to party together for a few quests, when player3 has progressed through most of the epic levels, but for levels from 1 to 24-25 he will not party with player2.

    TL;DR
    If gaining further epic exp is lost (converted to heroic, whatever), there's no point making more epic exp. Removing any incentive to play epics is a weird way to try to promote epic level play.
    I think you have explained succinctly how the Devs are once again splitting the playerbase by causing the Epic Destiny XP to disappear. This would be at least the third time that I can recall the Devs splitting the playerbase of the game.

    First, it was the introduction of the Bravery Bonus, which I really do blame the destruction of running PUGs. Prior to the BB, most players didn't care if a new/inexperienced player joined the group as long as they were competent. Prior to the BB, many players didn't care if someone was overlevel, since the loss of XP wasn't too big of a deal.

    Second, it was the addition of epic levels, in my opinion. I know alot of people are going to disagree with me, but adding epic levels split the playerbase in several ways. The Devs kept the segregation of heroic players from entering Epic quests. Additionally, the Devs didn't raise the horrible XP in the upper heroics, so level 20 toons bolt from horrible heroic XP quests for the better epic XP quests. The extra 5 levels also stretched the playerbase enough that it utterly gutted all the raids. Even with overlevel penalty hits, raids such as Reaver's Fate, Shroud and (to a lesser degree) Abbot enjoyed some health runs as being part of the endgame run. Today, you're lucky if you can find any of these raids (along with VoD, ToD and HoX) be ran at 1/5th the rate what they were prior to the introduction of Epic levels. Yes, there are some other factors like better loot in Epics also, but Epic levels should have never been introduced, especially since they EDs. If EDs were just added without the Epic levels, I strongly believe that the playerbase would be healthier.

    Third...well, I don't need to explain how removing ED XP when players TR or Epic TR will split the playerbase again, since DDOForumAccount did a pretty good job.

  20. #980

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post

    • Include Iconics in the TR cycle (with Iconic Past Life Feats)

    Two questions:

    1. If you build an Iconic that is a Paladin and then TR, do you earn an Iconic past life feat or a Paladin past life feat? (Or both?)
    2. If Iconic past lives exists, does that mean Heroic Completionists must earn them to stay Completionists?


    If this has already been answered, my apologies, but 25 pages means I can't read this whole thread.
    Last edited by geoffhanna; 06-15-2013 at 05:43 AM.

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