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  1. #901
    Community Member Atremus's Avatar
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    Default New Proposal for ED XP recovery

    OK, another idea:

    Those with extra Epic Destiny XP get to put it into a Epic Experience Bank at the first Epic TR (and only the first Epic TR.) It can only be used on Epic XP (and thus ED's) after a TR and it must persist through a few TR cycles. Assuming we will need about 5M XP to cap Level 28 [from Level 20] once they adjust the XP scales, we could use that Epic XP bank to bang out L20-28 3 or 4 times rapidly and keep TRing. This would give the players a decent return on their TIME, and give the Devs a mechanism to implement the loss of EDXP on TR.


    That would work out to a 3:1 or 4:1 rate in DDO's favor, but still grants us 6 PL's (3 Heroic / 3 Epic) in the process at the 3:1 rate.
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  2. #902
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rest View Post
    I don't believe you. Repeat:

    I DON'T BELIEVE YOU.

    How many times have we heard that, and still stuff is put out broken and ridiculous? You don't have any credibility anymore. Not with me, at any rate. And if this thread is any indication, not with a whole lot of people.

    Hey let's talk about the "alpha" enhancements getting partially installed on the live build, and your inability (or unwillingness) to do something about it. Why are spell crits still messed up? Why do clerics still have "obslete enhancement" or whatever the hell it's called?

    I think that all these proposed changes to the TR system are lame. They are penalizing players who were told BY THE HEAD DEVELOPER that Epic Destiny XP would persist through TRs and decided to max it out once, so they never had to do it again. Hell there was a bug where ED XP was lost via TRs and you all initiated a fix for it. So then you shouldn't have fixed it because you are planning to remove that XP on TR.

    You're not moving the goal line, you're changing the game. You're the kid who, when getting shot with a laser when playing with other kids, suddenly has a laser proof shield. You don't like the way people are playing "your" game, so you make it different in an effort to FORCE people to play how you want. Yeah. I get it. It's a game that you built and we play it but, because we DO play and are passionate about it, it's our game too.

    I really feel like you took a look at how people play the game and decided that "That's not how people are allowed to play! Let's change everything so it matches exactly with my vision." There's a oft-repeated phrase out there "No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy." At this point, I feel like you're treating your playing and paying customers are "the enemy". Sure you might have a great grand plan in your mind about how the game is going to work and how people are going to play it but people, being people, find ways to do what they want to do within the framework of the system you laid out. Until you start introducing arbitrary changes to force them to conform to how you think they should play (dungeon alert, "alpha" cleric enhancements et al.) the game.

    I will say that I'm glad there is more Turbine activity on the forum. I was starting to believe that everyone had left for all the other TB games, since there was a dearth of ANY Turbine activity on the forums. Be it from developers or our "community specialists". I put that in quotes because you have to interract with your community to become a specialist at it. Even the 3rd party places where I was very resistant to tread (twitter) has been quiet on the staff front.
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  3. #903

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    This thread has been read quite a bit by the dev team and other folks directly, and we'll be continuing this discussion throughout the coming days and weeks. Please remember to keep things civil and not insult each other or the Turbine development team.
    Thanks for the opportunity to let us input things early.
    Thanks DDO staffers for reading this thread.

    Hello DDO staffers,

    The current epic destinies when used have a lot of abilities not
    taken due to lack to points to spend on them.

    I would seem to work out fine, if you simply add a dozenish
    more points to spend, raising the epic destiny level at the same
    time.

    One probably would have to work out Ininates from level 6 thru 8,
    but other than that, just more points to spend would be enough.

    If you introduced this about the time you introduce Epic TRing,
    then suddenly nobody has a completely capped Epic Destiny anymore.

    Cheers and good luck,
    FAwngate of Khyber


    And with this, I have other things to do as I feel I have said all can think upon the subject...

  4. #904
    Uber Uber Completionist
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Scrap the whole project.

    Do nothing.

    That is much better than what is being proposed.
    There's nothing wrong with the concept of Epic TRing and being able to TR into Iconic.

    When I first read it, my initial reactions were: Excellent, another 12 Iconic Past Life Feats, 11 ED Past Lifes and Epic Completionist to aim for.

    It's then when you start to pick apart the detail and realise that they said that you lose your ED XP on "all" TRing that major alarm bells started ringing. It wasn't until I thought about it further that I realised why the automatic alarm bells were ringing.

    This won't affect my main in any way. I'll Epic TR into Iconics, cap them and repeat until I have all Iconic Past Lifes and ED's available. This will affect my alts, my guildies and everyone else who might want to get some Heroic Past Lives under their belt.

    The frustrating thing is that all they have to do is confirm clearly and concisely that on reflection Heroic TRing will remain exactly as it is and will not affect ED XP, only Epic TRing will affect this, and they solve lot of the problems I see with this. Maybe they need more time next week to have these meetings and come back to us once they realise why it is such a bad idea, and understand that we can see that even if they can't.

    They're so close to having this workable and attractive to practically everybody (you'll never actually please everybody). If they were miles away it would be less frustrating, but they are so damned close to having this as something excellent.

  5. #905
    Community Member moops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    This is not Cordovan's fault guys. He's not a developer, not a decision maker. At ALL. All he can do is relay a message given to him by the decision makers (manager types above the developers). WB and Turbine suits.

    They are killing this game from the inside out. We are not participating in a discussion, we are just listening to ourselves type.
    I've decided that it is actually their plan to sytematically get rid of either a certain player base or just run the game into the ground. I actually imagine them laughing at this.

    How to kill a game?

    1-Make Divines pretty awful in new enhancement pass so no one really wants to play them--this doesn't effect power gamers as they will just TR into something else, but new people and casuals tend to think that they need divines in a group, and the lack of them makes more people not log in as often.

    2-Hmm not enough people stopped playing over the enhancment alpha, lets mess up Spellpower AND the Forums at the same time so people can't even log in to complain, hahaha.

    3-Oh you know what will really get a lot of people to quit? lets change the name of our update, to an expansion, and not even put a RAID in it, and charge too much for it.

    4-Ok Ok guys, still some die hard DDO lovers out there...I know what will get them to abandon the game, Lets erase their EDs if they TR--heck, even the store bought stuff too!! OMG hahaha, there will be so much rage over this...who would stick around?


    And in affect, they have eliminated Endgame....Oh I tried to play without half the enhancements on my Cleric, not fun, and the amount of End Game players dwindeled by the day...my user chats nearly empty. This here, made a ghost town.
    Hexxa CLR 25 *TR* * ~Hexanna ~*TR* FVS 25 * Hexecuter CLR 20 *Flexanna RGR/R/M 18/1/1 *TR* * Flexa FTR/R 18/2 TR * Hextravaganz Bard *TR* 18/2 * Hexotic Sorc 13 * Hexquisite Wiz 23 * ~~Quantum Entropy * SARLONA~~ - * and various other scoundrels

  6. #906
    Uber Uber Completionist
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    Can you give one example where the Devs have changed their course of action after they have stated more than once that they are moving in a certain direction? I cannot not. Not once.
    Madstone boots nerf
    Losing ED XP when you TR in it's earliest form
    Tomes persisting through TRing


    That's 3 off the top of my head. We're into the weekend now and maybe those guys need some chillout time to reflect on the week that's been, catch up with the posts on this and other threads now they've been unchained from their cubicles. Hopefully they'll have the discussions next week and review this thing with fresh eyes and come back to us with some good news.

  7. #907
    Community Member AlmGhandi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Wrong. Please, remember that this is more of a brainstorming session than it is a set in stone announcement about what's coming.

    [U][B]NOTHING IS SET IN STONE.
    Targetting update 20? Enhancement pass coming with the xpac? How much time do we have before it is set in stone?
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  8. #908
    Uber Uber Completionist
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    This thread has been read quite a bit by the dev team and other folks directly, and we'll be continuing this discussion throughout the coming days and weeks. Please remember to keep things civil and not insult each other or the Turbine development team.
    Have a good weekend man. See you next week for more of the same Hopefully you'll have some good news for us.

  9. #909

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    Quote Originally Posted by dlsidhe View Post
    Alright, so, to sum up:

    *EDs will have their own PL feats.
    *Epic TRs grant the ED-PL for the Bonded ED and erase ED XP for non-bonded EDs.
    *Epic TRs will allow up to 38-pt builds.
    *Regular TRs will function as normal...EXCEPT...
    *ALL TRs will offer "Epic Advantage," one heroic rank per ED level gained.
    *LRs will now create 32-pt builds
    *Iconics get their own PL feats.
    *You can TR into an Iconic (Nae's third life will be a Shadar-Kai, thank you).
    *GRs are being eliminated.
    *XP per TR might be reworked (please and thank you).

    Sounds reasonable.
    Honestly, good set of ideas...I like it.

  10. #910
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    To the people saying that a lot of the posts in here are hyperbole:

    If I say that a change would kill the game that could be hyperbole. If I think the change is bad and say it would kill the game then you're right, that is hyperbole. If I think the change will quite literally kill the game and I say it will kill that game, that's honest feedback. Some of my comments have been of the actionable feedback variety. Some have been simply non-actionable feedback. None has, in my opinion, been hyperbole. I would 100% be done spending money with Turbine if this goes live as suggested. I would definitely encourage people in game to do the same as well as to not get too tied to any progress on their toons because tomorrow it could be some other part of our character's progression getting removed. And I would definitely give my strong opinion about Turbine to anyone that asked for it. That's not hyperbole. That's the feedback from a disappointed customer.

    While this particular post doesn't have any alternatives presented, I and others have given plenty. The posts in between? That's people making it clear what the consequences would be if those alternatives are ignored.

    I said that on day 1 I was in shock. Day 2 I was angry. Now, 3 days out, I'm motivated. I view this as a big business (and make no mistake, Turbine is a big business in that they answer to Warner Bros.) abusing its customers and figuring they have no recourse. I wouldn't stand for that regardless of what business it was pulling it and when I'm one of those customers I'm definitely going to make a stink about it. If I don't it's tantamount to giving tacit approval of their abuses.

    And before someone whips out some real hyperbole about 'PRISM' or 'famine in Africa' - yes, there are bigger issues. And I spend far more time on those bigger issues than I do on this one. But this is the one to which this forum is dedicated so all of my time here is spent on this issue. My priorities are just fine...no need to come in with the sermon.

    So for the tl;dr:
    1) Saying a change would kill the game for certain groups of gamers isn't hyperbole if you believe it to be true.
    2) Games have died and often it has been because of bad decisions by the developers.
    3) It is reasonable then to make a statement that you feel a proposed change could kill a game.
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  11. #911
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play.
    You do relize that ed were promised and sold as staying though TR. so the weird thing is that you think it is okay to go back on your word as a company. Really this will be of limted effect on me as a player. I have never tr and only have one or 2 ed maxed on any toon. but when I got the ed I was told there were persistent. To me this means that I should have to worry about you guys changing your minds. Now I know I should be used to this, only one raid in motu, this xpac thing were supposed to be bta were in fact btc and you as a company had the gall to say that was the way it should be. I have had a few customer support issues and some were good some not so good and some out right bad. BUT the 2nd MOTU raid okay wasn't good so you scraped it, but were is it now could it not be fixed. Why make thing btc when sold as bta. Honesty is more important then some rule you think should be. If the player base cant trust you then they wont trust you with their money. IT is a simple as that. This is the seond time after an xpac has been sold you tell us thing that make the player base angery. With MOTU we moved on this I don't think will be forgiven as easly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    we'd rather spend that development time on things most players like.

  12. #912
    Community Member MartinusWyllt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    ...If I think the change is bad and say it would kill the game then you're right, that is hyperbole.


    If I think the change will quite literally kill the game and I say it will kill that game, that's honest feedback.....
    You actually think there is a difference between these two sentences?

    You don't have the data to know anything will "literally kill the game"....so, yes, hyperbolic and your honest feedback *simultaneously*.

  13. #913
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    Can only say that on reading through the threads I consider this a poorly received proposal. Be brave and review this - people have invested too much time in optimising their EDs

  14. #914
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    Quote Originally Posted by rest View Post
    What about people, like me, who didn't XP farm and just made sure to never run an epic quest more than twice before I capped so I wouldn't get penalties and got my ED XP through the quests I actually enjoy playing? Are they better or worse than someone who XP farmed?
    I appears that you have accomplished more in game than he has, so it seems quite obvious that you are evil.

  15. #915
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Just put him on ignore and the forums make more sense.
    Yes, but the down side is that an enormous amount of entertainment value would be lost.

  16. #916
    Hero rosedarkthorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    If I understand correctly the reason they're doing level 1 is that they're granting you both the Epic and Heroic TR. Now, one could argue those shouldn't be coupled and I wouldn't necessarily disagree but just wanted to point out what I perceive their reasoning to be in this case.
    If that was the case, I could live with that too. I just perceive and epic TR to be directly to do with epic xp.

  17. #917
    Community Member debo's Avatar
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    Something I haven't read. Are epic destiny past lifes going to be max stacking x3 like heroic past lifes passives?

    It seems to me the best way if not would be to take 1 life each time to cap with atleast 1 maxed destiny to "bond" it.

  18. #918
    2015 DDO Players Council Sebastrd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

    We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

    Unfortunately, that is still just unacceptable. I TR because I like levelling to 20. What I don't want to do is is re-grind epic destiny XP.

    What if, instead of epic true reincarnating everything, we can TR one ED at a time - basically the opposite of the "bonding" system in the works. I'd like to see three TR options in the future.


    1. Heroic True Reincarnation (requires True Druidic Heart of Wood): the current heroic TR remaining completely unchanged. Character starts over at level one, gains a past-life feat, epic destinies are unaffected.
    2. Epic Destiny True Reincarnation (requires a True Druidic Heart of Destiny): A 28th level character with a bonded destiny starts over from level 20 with the bonded destiny "absorbed" as a destiny past-life feat and that destiny reset to zero. All other destinies remain unchanged.
    3. Legend of the Undying (requires a True Druidic Heart of the Undying): A 28th level character with a bonded destiny starts over at level one and gains a past-life feat. At level 20 their bonded destiny past-life feat kicks in and that destiny is reset to zero. All other destinies remain unchanged.

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  19. #919
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    There's nothing wrong with the concept of Epic TRing and being able to TR into Iconic.
    Yes, there is *something* wrong with it.

    In standard RPG conceptualization, character development is given in stages called "levels" because they want characters (and NPCs) of a similar level to be able to play together and against each other in a meaningful manner. Past lives circumvent this system. If you have had 28 prior lives, when you are level "11" you are REALLY level 20, and when you are level 20, with full EDs and everything else, you are REALLY level 40 on a relative scale.

    Admittedly, they have also made a system where running an elite level "11" quest is REALLY level 16, and so forth, but I don't think it takes much logic at all to rip that system to shreds. Typically, the argument that occurs in an MMO is about lateral (diversity of mechanics) character development versus vertical gear/power treadmills. It's very seldom a debate about being able to circumvent gameplay entirely through poorly conceived mechanics like past lives. DDO is a very "special" place.

  20. #920
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play.
    I believe it is likely you do not play your own game or perhaps are simply ignorant of how most non-Turbine people play it. If you did you would understand how incorrect this statement is. I have been running multiple characters through multiple TRs. Prior to this announcement I would spend a few days in the Epic level range running end game content. Flagging for raids and running them every life helps to ease the monotony of TRing. These changes though threaten to penalize anyone who has been doing this by telling them their time spent earning XP was a complete waste.

    As it stands, if these changes go through, I will stop running Epic content until I have finished TRing each character.
    Last edited by Ryiah; 06-14-2013 at 06:43 PM.
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