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  1. #881
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    So they don't play the way you like and must be punished, sounds like you are a lovely human being.
    Just put him on ignore and the forums make more sense.

  2. #882
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation...
    Based on your further comments, although clearly you understand THAT we have concern, I'm not sure that you UNDERSTAND our concern.

    As I understand your proposal: Person "A" has one destiny at maximum. Person "B" has 11 destines at maximum. Both Epic TR. Both get exactly 1 Destiny Past Life. Person "A" "bonds" his single destiny, and loses nothing else. Person "B" somehow also loses all destiny XP from 10 destinies that are not really involved in the process. This is inherently unfair. And you're actively punishing people for having put time and effort into your game. The conern is NOT that we're not getting enough silly little bonus Heroic XP in return. I, for one, don't give a hoot about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP
    <snip>
    Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play.
    You have that completely backwards.

    Right now, there is no problem with hitting 20 and playing Epic for a while, because none of that Epic Destiny XP is wasted. It's super-flexible with your TRing timetable. You can spread your Epic Destiny leveling out as you choose between TRs. It's actually quite elegant. (The only way it would be better is if raid counters were preserved across TRs, too, so you could accumulate toward your 20th completion between TRs.)

    Your new system would take away all that flexibility, and cause what you say you're trying to prevent. ANY time spent after hitting level 20 is wasted, as all that Epic XP would go bye-bye. You're pretty much forced into immediate TR at 20, or else going all the way to 28. There's no flexibility or middle ground.

    Wait...is that the plan? To try to kill off Heroic TR and have ONLY Epic TR, by putting in this huge disincentive for Heroic TR?

    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones
    Where exactly do Fate Points from Tomes of Fate that were not purchased from the store fit in?

  3. #883
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rest View Post
    What about people, like me, who didn't XP farm and just made sure to never run an epic quest more than twice before I capped so I wouldn't get penalties and got my ED XP through the quests I actually enjoy playing?

    You mean like I did? Simple, if this gets implemented as is, don't TR if you don't want to lose any EDs. I won't TR the guys with lots of ED, and I probably will TR the guys with few EDs. Hopefully they'll listen to feedback and not burn epic xps when we HTR. But they absolutely should burn epic xps when we ETR.

    Quote Originally Posted by rest View Post
    Are they better or worse than someone who XP farmed?
    Why would you think one group of players is 'better' or 'worse'? I just don't feel sorry for players who CHOOSE to grind grind grind grind grind grind, then freak out when something changes that they didn't expect to change (which is extremely short-sighted in DDO) whether it is gear, spells, class, whatever.


    It's also another reason not to play that way. Playing for 'power' is fraught with disappointment. Something always changes that makes your optimized build/gear less optimal eventually. Forum people know that, there is no reason to expect things not to change based on the history of this game. But then maybe some of these people thought 'the game is dead' so Turbine wouldn't ever upgrade it again? They gambled and lost. Re-roll.

  4. #884
    Community Member Dhalgren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rest View Post
    What about people, like me, who didn't XP farm and just made sure to never run an epic quest more than twice before I capped so I wouldn't get penalties and got my ED XP through the quests I actually enjoy playing? Are they better or worse than someone who XP farmed?
    Or people like me, who have been doing a TR and then spending some time playing epics (not farming, just playing) to level an ED or two, then TRing again, and so on? I've made it from Magister to Shiradi and am working on GMoF and I'd be pretty burned if continuing to play the way we've been playing in my static group resulted in me suddenly losing all that accumulated ED progress.

    I am pretty sure that doesn't make me crazy and I hope it doesn't make me a bad person.
    Heatherx Rgr12/Arti6/Rog2 (PL: 3 Wiz; 1 FvS; 2 Sor; 1 Clr; 1 Arti; 1 Rog)
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  5. #885
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    Default Some thoughts...

    Why not give TRs extra Feats?

    The way it stands now, you just get your passive feats for free, but your active ones have to be taken out of your (already sparse) feat total. If you TR several times, I personally think you should have extra slots for all those active feats or regular ones if you need them. This would not be unreasonable to me.

    Take, for instance, someone who plays casters (like me :-) )... If you TRed as a Sorc and as a Wizard, you get the passive feats, which help a bit, but if you wanted the Elemental Ray or the SLA Magic Missile, you have to sacrifice one of your regular feats, which is really a bit difficult to spare, especially if your current life is, say, a Sorc which just doesn't get that many feats to begin with.

    If you gave a bonus feat for every past life the character had in a different class, they could take the active feats or even the meta-magics or class feats they need and it really wouldn't affect game balance, as these things are dependent upon your caster level. It would just save you some Spell Points. If you used them for other (regular) feats, it would make your TRs progressively tougher and more in line with a character that had lived multiple times- i.e. every time you TRed as a different class, you had memories of how to do things that each class taught, instead of giving up a standard feat for an active PL feat, which really only helps at low to mid-level anyway.

    As far as Epic TR goes, why not allow the Twists of Fate to carry over to the new life at heroic level as well? Unless this conflicts with the "bonding" thing you are working on, this would add a bit of variety to builds and even make multi-class builds a bit more like the pen-and-paper game and wouldn't affect game balance a lot, as many of those abilities are level restricted. You could even put a level restriction on how often you get those. (first at third level, second at 7th, third at 11th, or even make them dependent upon which tier Twist they are).

    I really think TRs should be tougher than they are, especially considering how much work it takes to reach 20 and then start all over.

    TY for reading this! I hope it is coherent enough to make sense! :-D

  6. #886

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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    You mean like I did? Simple, if this gets implemented as is, don't TR if you don't want to lose any EDs. I won't TR the guys with lots of ED
    Yes, exactly. You've isolated the problem precisely.

  7. #887
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    So they don't play the way you like and must be punished, sounds like you are a lovely human being.
    You don't like that I disagree with you so you imply I am NOT a lovely human being? Interesting choice.


    Phrase of the day: Pyschological Projection.

  8. #888
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    ...they don't really understand why we are all in agreement that this is a bad idea.
    I will agree that pretty much their entire development plan they proposed in this discussion thread is a bad idea. I am in no way in agreement with you, however, as my reasons for thinking it a bad idea are way different than yours.

    You are merely concerned with absolute character power, as is typical for people who play DDO. Relative power (the thing that actually controls how gameplay works) will change only mildly, as game-wide changes have this "side-effect" of affecting everyone equally. So while most everyone here is having epileptic attacks that their intense character grind was marginalized, I'm yawning and simply wondering why they would do that - how does it change gameplay?

    Well, lets start with the semi-good parts:
    1) Giving you credit for your destiny levels pushes your TR past new player levels, allowing new players to start "fresh"
    2) You don't feel entirely cheated out of past XP earned
    3) It gives past grinders a new set of goals to grind (grinders usually like grind as long as it doesn't counteract prior grind)

    Now lets start on the long list of bad things (many of which are chiefly why I would call the whole thing a mess)
    1) Larger gaps between high-grind and low-grind characters. Forcing grind to be "relevant" in typical groups is going to cut your potential client base down significantly.
    2) As others have objected, it allocates a smaller set of quests to grinding activities (I don't have much of a problem with this)
    3) Loss/trivialization of character class identity (by promoting TRs) - players tend to be better at some classes than others, so pushing people to play almost every class to achieve power in one leads to a lot of "Gandalf sucks as a barbarian" scenarios
    4) Increases power creep when actual gameplay had already been marginalized to Hades and back
    5) Gives long term grinders more grind (see #3 in semi-good section) so they might stick around longer (thereby repelling new grinders, let alone non-grinders)
    6) Increases game complexity when new players are already swamped with info
    7) It will most likely increase the occurrence of bugs and exploits

    I would probably add that it shows a pretty much "clueless" level of understanding towards their game and existing player base, as well, but that is a symptom to apply to the givers of the message, not the message itself.

  9. #889
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Am I supposed to feel sorry for people who ran rusted blades 10,000 times to max EDs? Barking. Tree. Up the wrong.
    I have guildies that ground the rusted blades or something similiar to death and others that refused to and did not farm anything, but still worked extremely hard to get destiny xp. Both groups suffer because so much time that they spent is for naught.

    Yeah there is the same 10-15 posters posting too much with nothing new to add which frequently happens on the forums regardless of that this is one of worst decisions that I have seen made by the marketing/developers in DDO and this can not be overstated. The posters are correctly highly skeptical that Turbine will change their plan because quite frankly after years and years they very rarely do change plans despite feedback from the playerbase.

    I do not know if there is a real feasible alternative. Perhaps something as simple as you keep all of your destiny xp, fate points, etc., but do not get the epic past lives unless you tr and re-grind the destiny xp for that particular destiny and you can just select one destiny epic past live per life - throughout all of this you still keep all your fate points and epic destiny xp.
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  10. #890
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Yes, exactly. You've isolated the problem precisely.
    Beats the alternative of threatening to quit, or actually quitting. I don't make the rules. I don't like all the rules. I just play the game. Move the goal posts, I'll keep playing. Change the scoring system, I'll keep playing. Change the rules, I'll keep playing.


    I could sit in a pool of my own tears, or publicly shake my fist in anger at the gods, or take it out on everyone who doesn't think like me, or I can adapt and overcome and keep having fun. Isn't that what games are for? To have fun?

    We could try to sensibly, calmly get our points across without attacking other people for disagreeing with us or for having a different perspective, but lets just keep screaming about the enhancements, and the proposed TR changes, and bugs, and whatever whine-de-jour, and keep declaring DDO dead/dying/dust, and keep threatening to quit the game you supposedly quit months ago... that method really seems to be working.

  11. #891
    Community Member PsychoBlonde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhalgren View Post
    Or people like me, who have been doing a TR and then spending some time playing epics (not farming, just playing) to level an ED or two, then TRing again, and so on? I've made it from Magister to Shiradi and am working on GMoF and I'd be pretty burned if continuing to play the way we've been playing in my static group resulted in me suddenly losing all that accumulated ED progress.

    I am pretty sure that doesn't make me crazy and I hope it doesn't make me a bad person.
    I still don't grasp exactly how this proposed system of theirs is going to work, but yeah, I will NOT be pleased if taking my completionist with all destinies complete to 38-point build means I have to re-grind ALL of my destinies. Technically, I ought to get retroactive 38-point build on that character because I have made a practice of leveling her to 25 to fill out her destinies as I got past lives.

    I don't understand what it means that your ED levels will convert to "Heroic Ranks". Does that mean that if I have 50 ED levels outside my "bonded" ED, when I TR that character I will start at rank 50, i.e. level 11? I can't make any coherent criticism of this crazed system because I don't comprehend what the heck is meant by most of this jargon.
    I edited a book!

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  12. #892
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    This thread has been read quite a bit by the dev team and other folks directly, and we'll be continuing this discussion throughout the coming days and weeks. Please remember to keep things civil and not insult each other or the Turbine development team.
    I wasn't! I was insulting Turbine management!




    (p.s. Jerry, please read your PMs... or at least the one I sent )

  13. #893

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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    and keep threatening to quit the game you supposedly quit months ago...
    I'm sorry, what?

  14. #894
    Community Member Xionanx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Wrong. Please, remember that this is more of a brainstorming session than it is a set in stone announcement about what's coming.

    Additionally, while we appreciate people's passionate opinions about this issue, the amount of rage in this thread needs to be lowered. Nothing is set in stone. Repeat:

    NOTHING IS SET IN STONE.

    I have frequently read on the forums that folks would like to see more back and forth with the developers in regards to hot issues undergoing development work. This is your chance to do so in a way that doesn't amount to screaming in someone's face. Keep in mind that there's a lot of discussion taking place based on your feedback, but a lot of that discussion will not be made public until it's in a state to put out there as a possibility or an idea being put forward for feedback.
    Just speaking from a place of experience with Turbine, but its always been: Here are some proposed changes and we dont care what you think your getting them no matter how they screw you.

    Players WARNED YOU about TR XP CURVES hurting the game in the long run YEARS AGO. We WARNED YOU about power creep, we WARNED YOU about CANNITH CRAFTING XP vs REWARD issues, so on and so forth.

    The fact that Turbine continues to ignore the games who play the game, SOME OF WHICH HAVE MORE YEARS EXPERIENCE PLAYING GAMES THEN I'M SURE SOME OF THE EMPLOYEES AT TURBINE HAVE DEVELOPING THEM. Seriously, I have been playing Console/PC/tabletop games since 1983, I think I KNOW A THING OR TWO ABOUT A FAIR AND BALANCED SYSTEM; and I'm sure there are plenty of other players here in the same boat.

    Yeah, we may not get "paid" for our opinions, but you'd be hard pressed to find a better group of people to ask about design changes and frankly it amazes me that month after month, year after year, GOOD SOLUTIONS ARE IGNORED OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

    So.. you'll excuse me if I take what was presented about the coming update 20 as a "just throwing this out for feedback" and more of a "this is what we are going to do so deal with it".. ,kind of post.

  15. #895
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    This thread has been read quite a bit by the dev team and other folks directly, and we'll be continuing this discussion throughout the coming days and weeks. Please remember to keep things civil and not insult each other or the Turbine development team.
    I don't have a problem with losing destiny xp. I have a problem with re-leveling through those destinies, especially the ones that have no use for my character, to re-earn fate points and twist what I want again. it really doesn't take that long to level through a destiny, especially if you do the xp/min way which probably takes the average person a few hours and going by my personal experience with it. for me personally and I will dare assume for some players as well, that when I level through these destinies my character feels under powered and I don't think she would be much use in a group running anything other than heroic and EH/EN content. its almost like there should be a quest designed specifically for those ED farming. it takes a long long time to earn the fate points you want and it would be pointless for people to do that if they plan on TRing that character. even if I wasn't going to TR my character for another 6 months, I wouldn't go through the painful process for fate points when I would have to do again anyways. its long, its tedious and its boring.

    I believe epic advantage should be scrapped. epic xp should be for epics, not heroics. to some, its a good thing as they can skip low levels that they have run many, many times and they only care about the past lives. I just don't understand how bonding a destiny and using the levels to go towards heroic xp has anything to do with D&D. I see it as potential Turbine profit and another way to make some players a little happier with what appears to be less grind, but that's it.

    I also fear how this could affect the lower level population and activity. skipping those low levels when a lot of people TR for different reasons, means less vet experienced players in groups with new players. maybe this means less griefing on both ends and BB wouldn't be set so much as the standard so new players can learn the game at an easier difficulty. maybe it means more frustrated players unable to figure out the game and even more poor builds making their way into the mid levels that are less likely to re-roll or take helpful advice because they made it that far doing "just fine". im rooting for the positive side but I do have my doubts.

    im glad that past lives are getting attention and I hope some needed changes to the heroic versions will be done. some, I believe, are in need of tweaking. my 2 cents on that is I think epic past lives should be an extension to the heroic versions that are universal for the class. I believe they should be a nice little bonus like the heroic ones, but it should be worth TRing for them and not just for the extra 2 points.

    if im going to epic TR, than that's fine if I lose all my levels in destinies like I would in heroic. but there needs to be a way to keep our twists and points. if there can be a compromise on that, there would be a lot less upset players and doom level will decrease significantly. this is the most talked about thing in the game right now and many players are worried about what could happen. what decisions are made about TRing and epic xp could potentially change the direction of DDO and I actually fear the worst. my tinfoil hat makes me wise

  16. #896
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    Quote Originally Posted by RightToRemainStupid View Post
    In my experience, most people with this attitude aren't very good players and tend to look for excuses to avoid situations where this will become apparent to others. I've seen it time and time again on these forums, often from some of the most vocal and trollish posters, who often chime in with their opinions regarding parts of the game even they themsleves admit they prefer to avoid. TR'ing is just a safer, less challenging form of grind, that allows people to stay in their comfort zones.
    Ad hominem much?
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  17. #897
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Wrong. Please, remember that this is more of a brainstorming session than it is a set in stone announcement about what's coming.

    Additionally, while we appreciate people's passionate opinions about this issue, the amount of rage in this thread needs to be lowered. Nothing is set in stone. Repeat:

    NOTHING IS SET IN STONE.

    I have frequently read on the forums that folks would like to see more back and forth with the developers in regards to hot issues undergoing development work. This is your chance to do so in a way that doesn't amount to screaming in someone's face. Keep in mind that there's a lot of discussion taking place based on your feedback, but a lot of that discussion will not be made public until it's in a state to put out there as a possibility or an idea being put forward for feedback.
    While I'm sure we're all very glad to hear that "nothing's set in stone," I do hope you'll ("you" being generic to Turbine in general) understand if we have our doubts. While Turbine has at times dropped or altered it's plans in response to player out-cry, it has certainly seemed to be on a "few and far between" basis.

    Many of us are eagerly awaiting the next preview version of the enhancement pass as a sort of test of your willingness to respond to our feedback and concerns.

    While toning down the rage to engage in clear headed reasonable discussion is of course a better way to conduct ourselves, the shear amount of rage it's self should be a communication of the populations general opinion on the issue at hand. Perhaps start a "Let's Talk: TR/ETR" thread to host a fresh, more civil discussion? Perhaps as a thread starter include a synopsis of the proposed changes and our concerns & suggestions thus far; minus the 42 pages of rage.

    Please also be sure to pass on those discussing this issue the other threads that have been running in the general forum. There are some very quality ideas there as well.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  18. #898
    Community Member Cryohazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xionanx View Post
    Yeah, we may not get "paid" for our opinions, but you'd be hard pressed to find a better group of people to ask about design changes and frankly it amazes me that month after month, year after year, GOOD SOLUTIONS ARE IGNORED OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
    This. My biggest pet peeve in recent years.

    What was that long forgotten Turbine mantra? Oh man, its been a while...but I think it went...yeah, think it went something like this:

    "Turbine: Powered by our Fans"

    Devs, (or managers, admin, WB beancounters, whoever) you guys used to be capable of regularly putting out a good product that pleased the player base. I'm restating the obvious here, but coding up stuff that players have clearly stated that they DO NOT want does not make your fans very happy. This is the core reason why you have been losing subscribers and the game feels like its on life-support.

    I don't know where this miscommunication originated from, nor am I going to speculate, but it has GOT to stop.Despite what you've been saying recently, it truly does feel like you guys have a completely different gameplan for the game than what the players have been wanting. When is it going to stop? How much power do you have to lose from your fans before you "get" it?

    Nowadays, it seems like you've changed your mantra and haven't told us:

    "Turbine: When our <beep> hits our fans"
    Last edited by Cryohazard; 06-14-2013 at 05:23 PM.
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    Let me concede and bow to your far superior social graces.....

  19. #899
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    I don't often post on the forums but I want to add my voice to the outrage. I have a level 25 toon that's been sitting at 25 waiting for the new levels. I purchased MOTU and am very happy I did. I've postponed buying Shadowfell as I wasn't convinced pre-purchase was a good idea. The proposed TR changes have made me even less inclined to buy it.

    There is now zero incentive to log on to my level 25 toon. I have 3 maxed destinies plus all the in-between destinies I needed to move between them. In the months before this update is live what do I do with this toon? There is now no point in leveling the destinies if it will all be wiped out on TR'ing. I was moving between destinies to have as many maxed as possible for future lives.
    That's pointless right now.

    If I don't buy Shadowfell then I have only the choice of heroic TR'ing and losing ALL my ED XP.

    What really makes me angry, as others have pointed out, is the way we were told that ED's would persist through TR'ing so we planned out toons lives accordingly. You take our money Turbine then change the rules on us.
    Unacceptable!

    Let us keep the ED's we have already earned and give us some incentive to play in the coming months.

  20. #900
    Community Member Ravand's Avatar
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    Default Just so my 2 cp are not missed...

    ...because they were not part of the "official" thread, I will cut and paste from a topic I started in the general discussion regarding real life money being spent on leveling epic destinies. The replies to this topic brought up other good points as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravand View Post
    I did not see keys of destiny addressed in the dev tracker, only purchased fate points.

    Does anyone know what the impact of the proposed TR system will have on keys of destiny? I am a casual player who purchased a couple of keys to avoid the grind. I justified this because they were on sale, I believed it was a one time purchase, and I could go back in "fill in" the destinies later if I got bored or needed the fate points. It only had to be done once per character, right?

    The description of the proposed Epic TRing does not address what happens to the keys. As someone who has a heck of a lot less to lose than others if the system is implemented as proposed, I will be ticked if my money is flushed down the toilet when I TR.

    If I missed it, I would appreciate being pointed in the right direction. If not, I would appreciate the devs addressing this at some point.

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