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  1. #861
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    Can you give one example where the Devs have changed their course of action after they have stated more than once that they are moving in a certain direction?
    - "hard to kill"
    - "Madstone boots"
    - Offerwall
    - Raid loot as crafting ingredients.

    there are a few other small things.

    All required MASSIVE amounts of nerd-rage to get Turbine to listen.

  2. #862
    Community Member rest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    - "hard to kill"
    - "Madstone boots"
    - Offerwall
    - Raid loot as crafting ingredients.

    there are a few other small things.

    All required MASSIVE amounts of nerd-rage to get Turbine to listen.
    Offer wall is a bad example, as it took gaming news sites to bust Turbine's chops to get it removed. Not due to customer's security concerns, but because of bad press.

  3. #863
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    Can you give one example where the Devs have changed their course of action after they have stated more than once that they are moving in a certain direction? I cannot not. Not once. And so far when have the original post and two additional posts stating that they will continue in the direction that 99% of the feedback has been negative. Granted, Piloto's reply hasn't been completely condensing as "I or We know better than you the players want" that we voice disappointment in a certain little dev's weapon design....but it's pretty darn close.
    I can actually give one example: raid loot in Cannith Crafting. I'm hoping the result is the same here...that the dev's realize this is a dealbreaker for people and change gears.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Since directly explaining why this proposed mechanic is bad, maybe an anecdote will help explain it:

    SNIP

    Every variation of the proposed change ruins this plan. If I'm not on his final life when the change goes live I lose all my destinies, forcing me back to the only part of this game I legitimately hate: destiny farming for the sake of destiny farming.
    And this is why everyone needs to stop posting their own pet solutions that fix their problem and deal with the fact that any solution that tries to massage the suggested system leaves someone out in the cold. Heroic TR'ing needs to leave ED xp alone. It's that simple. Anything that lacks the option to end up heroic TR'ing and getting back all of your ED xp is a non-starter.
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  4. #864
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    Quote Originally Posted by rest View Post
    Offer wall is a bad example, as it took gaming news sites to bust Turbine's chops to get it removed. Not due to customer's security concerns, but because of bad press.
    Which is what I'm afraid it will take now. Turbine's players setting the phasers to kill, taking to social media, and making enough of a ruckus that gaming news sites take notice and bust Turbine's chops. I'd say we hold off for now but not for any more than a week or two.
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  5. #865
    Community Manager Cordovan's Avatar
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    This thread has been read quite a bit by the dev team and other folks directly, and we'll be continuing this discussion throughout the coming days and weeks. Please remember to keep things civil and not insult each other or the Turbine development team.
    Have fun, and don't forget to gather for buffs!
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  6. #866

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    This is not Cordovan's fault guys. He's not a developer, not a decision maker. At ALL. All he can do is relay a message given to him by the decision makers (manager types above the developers). WB and Turbine suits.

    They are killing this game from the inside out. We are not participating in a discussion, we are just listening to ourselves type.

    Jerry, please get the devs to spend a few more minutes here (Piloto's response is a great start).. interact with the playerbase.

    Lets get this site reverted or fixed and welcome people back. Too many community members left this site in... droves. Many ViPs. The few left, or coming back to have a voice in this thread are not happy for the most part, because they know this is set in stone. Why? Remember the last brainstorm, enhancement pass? Stone.

    This is happening. Sure the details can change... but INTERACT with the playerbase. Show us the "proposal" can change.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 06-15-2013 at 12:29 AM.


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  7. #867
    Community Member knightgf's Avatar
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    I just wanted to say that right now, I like the current TR system as it is; the idea of having my epic destinies available to me as they were before I TR'ed at level 20 is a great incentive for me to level. In a way, heroic TR currently extends to aid epic characters as well. Take that away, and you give TR'ing less value. Much less value, I might add. I understand the idea of giving up epic destiny XP for something cool, but giving up epic destiny XP should be a choice, not a side effect of a regular, heroic TR.

    The way I see it:

    - Heroic TR should not touch epic destiny XP unless you want it to.
    - Epic TR should touch epic destiny XP, although the way it should depends on how you want it to be carried out. If it directly affects your epic destiny, fine. If it just simply sets you back to 20, then idk...more details would be needed.
    Here's a riddle for you: What do you call people who play the game for only a day and apparently know everything?

  8. #868
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rest View Post
    I don't believe you. Repeat:

    I DON'T BELIEVE YOU.

    How many times have we heard that, and still stuff is put out broken and ridiculous? You don't have any credibility anymore. Not with me, at any rate. And if this thread is any indication, not with a whole lot of people.

    Hey let's talk about the "alpha" enhancements getting partially installed on the live build, and your inability (or unwillingness) to do something about it. Why are spell crits still messed up? Why do clerics still have "obslete enhancement" or whatever the hell it's called?

    I think that all these proposed changes to the TR system are lame. They are penalizing players who were told BY THE HEAD DEVELOPER that Epic Destiny XP would persist through TRs and decided to max it out once, so they never had to do it again. Hell there was a bug where ED XP was lost via TRs and you all initiated a fix for it. So then you shouldn't have fixed it because you are planning to remove that XP on TR.

    You're not moving the goal line, you're changing the game. You're the kid who, when getting shot with a laser when playing with other kids, suddenly has a laser proof shield. You don't like the way people are playing "your" game, so you make it different in an effort to FORCE people to play how you want. Yeah. I get it. It's a game that you built and we play it but, because we DO play and are passionate about it, it's our game too.

    I really feel like you took a look at how people play the game and decided that "That's not how people are allowed to play! Let's change everything so it matches exactly with my vision." There's a oft-repeated phrase out there "No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy." At this point, I feel like you're treating your playing and paying customers are "the enemy". Sure you might have a great grand plan in your mind about how the game is going to work and how people are going to play it but people, being people, find ways to do what they want to do within the framework of the system you laid out. Until you start introducing arbitrary changes to force them to conform to how you think they should play (dungeon alert, "alpha" cleric enhancements et al.) the game.

    I will say that I'm glad there is more Turbine activity on the forum. I was starting to believe that everyone had left for all the other TB games, since there was a dearth of ANY Turbine activity on the forums. Be it from developers or our "community specialists". I put that in quotes because you have to interract with your community to become a specialist at it. Even the 3rd party places where I was very resistant to tread (twitter) has been quiet on the staff front.
    Dang I wish I could fit this in my signature . . .

  9. #869
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    And this is a very good point. There are a lot of players that actually enjoy the heroic levels more than the epic levels. They still play the epic levels though each time they cap...sometimes a long time...sometimes just long enough to get 20 tokens and TR again. This effectively kills the game for them, or at least the epic part of it. They're forced into the epic TR system when what they really want is to use the current heroic TR system. Just another example where coupling heroic TR'ing to ED xp is a failure as a concept.

    What a load of hyperbolic nonsense. It doesn't 'kill the game' for them. I'm exactly one of those types of players who likes to earn a few EDs per life and it certainly wouldn't 'kill the game' for me in any way, I'd just plan things out differently.


    When will posters realize that the threats, hyperbole, and melodrama only serve to drown out any worthwhile points they actually have? Do you think anyone is going to seriously entertain any constructive criticism offered when it's book-ended by 'this kills the game' and 'failure as a concept'? Ranting isn't feedback. Well it is feedback in a way... the same way Bill Bixby turning into a green Lou Ferigno is feedback. What are you supposed to do with that?

  10. #870
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

    We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

    Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

    1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

    2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

    Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.
    Dear Piloto

    Thank you for taking the time to communicate with us - thats definitely appreciated.

    I still think the proposed system is in error in mixing up heroic and epic TR but seeing I and others have already posted our reasons many times in this thread I shall refrain from doing so again.

    Instead I will go into the idea you have presented and work with it rather than oppose it to try to migitate the damage.

    1) Fate points absolutely need to carry over if you wipe ED xp. Thats crucial. Please dont try to blame technical difficulties either. Decide if you want that to happen or not by design and explain your decision. If you decide to keep fate points as you should then I am sure your talented coders will work that out.

    2) You have yet to comment if unlocked spheres / destinies will remain unlocked after a TR. I sincerely hope so - including because people may have spent Keys to unlock some of those. Please think carefully on this one and then let us know what you have come up with.

    3) I am happy to see that you acknowledge that "1 heroic rank per 1 epic ED rank applies from level 1" is far, far too little compensation. Now, 10 unbound destinies equal 50 ranks and you mention that should be enough to get to level 20 on a 3rd life. Lets add even a little more and say that each rank of ED xp lost should yield 100k xp. Now, dont apply that in one lump and definitely not at level 1. Instead give the player something with charges that each add 100k xp - one charge per ED rank. Make those charges useable one at a time at any time the player wants to - including during epic levels.

    If you do these 3 things I think you might be unto something somewhat reasonable. Not as reasonable as leaving ED xp alone but if you absolutely feel the need to reset ED xp these 3 items should migitate the damage done by doing so in an acceptable manner.

    I am looking forward to the info you present early next week - hoping obviously that you adress the 3 points I have presented here.

    Sincerely
    Jan Sorensen

  11. #871
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    This thread has been read quite a bit by the dev team and other folks directly, and we'll be continuing this discussion throughout the coming days and weeks. Please remember to keep things civil and not insult each other or the Turbine development team.
    Hopefully the dev team is able to read between the nerd-rage lines (or at least find the nerdrage amusing). There is some decent feedback buried in here, but some folks have a hard time expressing themselves.

  12. #872
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    What a load of hyperbolic nonsense. It doesn't 'kill the game' for them. I'm exactly one of those types of players who likes to earn a few EDs per life and it certainly wouldn't 'kill the game' for me in any way, I'd just plan things out differently.


    When will posters realize that the threats, hyperbole, and melodrama only serve to drown out any worthwhile points they actually have? Do you think anyone is going to seriously entertain any constructive criticism offered when it's book-ended by 'this kills the game' and 'failure as a concept'? Ranting isn't feedback. Well it is feedback in a way... the same way Bill Bixby turning into a green Lou Ferigno is feedback. What are you supposed to do with that?
    Killing the game is valid feedback, what you are seeing is people reacting to changes that make them want to quit the game in disgust. Please look up the changes with swg that happened. Turbine is making decisions so mind bogglingly similar that I just can't believe it. It's like they don't understand that history can repeat.

  13. #873
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    Thanks for replying!

    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

    We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

    Only problems are:
    1. Most players who TR also enjoy replaying the Heroic content, so immediately leveling back to level 20 may actually be a disincentive to TR for many people.
    2. Most players who play Epic content enjoy gaining Epic Destinies (and indeed this becomes the primary goal for many) but find that with the high Epic XP needed (and especially with somewhat limited epic content), it can become a major grind to gain them.
    3. Playing Epic content, gaining some EDs and TRing, to be able to continue gaining more EDs (after once again reaching level 20) is what people enjoy. They don't enjoy the idea of starting EDs over again.
    4. Resetting Epic Destiny XP upon TRing means players will avoid playing Epic content if they want to TR. And if they do play Epic content, they'll avoid TRing.
    5. Players aren't looking for better compensation for losing Epic ED. Rather, they want to continue playing as they're playing now and not lose it upon TRing.




    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play.
    No offense, but I think you have this backwards. The current system provides a reason for people to continue playing Epic content and TRing to play it again and again and again until they gain all the Epic Destinies they can.

    Removing Epic XP after a TR provides an incentive to avoid epic level play because the progress they make is lost when they TR. And even the proposed Epic TR only keeps progress in one Destiny.


    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

    1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

    2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

    Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.

    I would like to second the suggestions made by GermanicusMaximus:

    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post
    If I were designing the changes

    1) Heroic TR would stay exactly as it is today
    2) Epic TR would return a character to level 20, resetting the currently active Epic Destiny XP in return for the past life bonus associated with it, and leave all other Epic Destiny XP unchanged.
    3) Just drop the "Epic Advantage" XP kludge
    4) Epic Destinies are already "bonded", as per the promise when MotU was released last year. Rules were set out for TRing, which as far as I am concerned apply to all types of TRs
    5) Iconic TR? Sorry, don't have an opinion.
    What Germanicus proposes seems sensible and would preserve the fun for players while still allowing the introduction of Epic Reincarnation and Epic Past Lives.

  14. #874
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Hopefully the dev team is able to read between the nerd-rage lines (or at least find the nerdrage amusing). There is some decent feedback buried in here, but some folks have a hard time expressing themselves.
    So instead of raging at the changes you rage at other players, yeah you're really productive.

  15. #875
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by magn0liafan View Post
    So. You like the thought that people who have spent at least 7 days to grind out those destines would lose the majority of those progress. Absolutely brilliant.

    Am I supposed to feel sorry for people who ran rusted blades 10,000 times to max EDs? Barking. Tree. Up the wrong.

  16. #876
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Scrap the whole project.

    Do nothing.

    That is much better than what is being proposed.
    I think he was asking about the current topic, not the enhancement pass.

  17. #877
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Am I supposed to feel sorry for people who ran rusted blades 10,000 times to max EDs? Barking. Tree. Up the wrong.
    So they don't play the way you like and must be punished, sounds like you are a lovely human being.

  18. #878
    Community Member rest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Am I supposed to feel sorry for people who ran rusted blades 10,000 times to max EDs? Barking. Tree. Up the wrong.
    What about people, like me, who didn't XP farm and just made sure to never run an epic quest more than twice before I capped so I wouldn't get penalties and got my ED XP through the quests I actually enjoy playing? Are they better or worse than someone who XP farmed?

  19. #879
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    So instead of raging at the changes you rage at other players, yeah you're really productive.

    Asking the devs to try to work past the useless noise to get the worthwhile information is counterproductive? Seriously? LOL.

  20. #880
    Community Member MartinusWyllt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fnordian View Post
    Thanks for replying!
    ...
    No offense, but I think you have this backwards. The current system provides a reason for people to continue playing Epic content and TRing to play it again and again and again until they gain all the Epic Destinies they can.

    Removing Epic XP after a TR provides an incentive to avoid epic level play because the progress they make is lost when they TR. And even the proposed Epic TR only keeps progress in one Destiny...
    Agreed.

    Though if Turbine insists on making this, losing all destiny xp on heroic TR, maybe they can consider decoupling classes and destiny spheres so that we can take whatever destiny we want? This way we could "lock" a preferred destiny to a particular toon and build from there over subsequent epic TRs regardless of what life we happen to be on at the time.

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