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  1. #801
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by somethingtosay View Post
    So what you are basically saying is to play only the epics and I just wonder why.....
    DDO has been trying to shove epic down people throats for years and it's always been fail. it's never been as good as the heroic game.

    Quote Originally Posted by somethingtosay View Post
    At this point i am not even angry...I am just sad...sad about the direction this game is taking.
    I'm actually rather amused. I'm not really a nerd-raging lunatic, I just play one on the forums.
    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 06-14-2013 at 02:37 PM.

  2. #802
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citzen_Gkar View Post
    Actually I do it largely to break up the ED grind lol

    I like to TR, get a couple EDs filled out, then TR again. Rinse and repeat. Of course that doesn't work in this system at at all. I'm not sure if there is any future in the game for me or not with this change.
    I think the new system matches this style of play very well. What it doesn't do is account for already having done this.

  3. #803
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    OK, so lets break the problem down into postulates and find a solution that addresses it better:

    1) XP shouldnt carry over from one life to the next, except the XP you specifically "bond".

    2) You should get a reward for all the XP you give up that's commensurate with the work you put in

    3) TRing should be a way to keep old content fresh, rather than letting it become obsolete to most of the playerbase as the level cap goes up

    Everyone agree with me so far? OK, well here's the problems:

    The current system breaks the first condition, because you keep your Destiny XP when you TR

    The current proposal breaks the second condition, because you dont get nearly enough back for losing 10 maxed Destinies.

    Epic Advantage, as described, breaks the third rule because you start out every subsequent life 1 level higher, until you're starting at L12 (L20 for Iconics)

    Solution: Every bonded Epic Destiny rank you hold upon TR gives you a permanent 1% bonus to Heroic and Epic XP for the entirety of your next life. Unbonded ranks give you a 3% bonus.

    So a character with 11 fully bonded destinies would start a life with a 55% bonus to XP, every quest every time, on top of everything else (like the 20% Tome bonus). A character who's bonding one Destiny and burning 10 would get (5% bonded + 150% burned) = 155% bonus XP for the entire next life.

    That fulfills all 3 criteria: makes you burn your XP between lives, gives you a commensurate reward for burned XP as well as a smaller reward for bonded XP, and doesnt lock you out from meaningful play in lower level content.

    I think a permanent 155% bonus would be worth the burned XP, since you could use that bonus to earn back the Epic XP at a faster rate, as well as shooting back up through L1-28 a lot easier. Even if you just get every destiny back up to bridge point (Tier 3/4) that's still another 120% XP bonus for your following life.

    Plus, it continues to provide an incentive to play Epic characters beyond maxing one Destiny, since any additional ranks they earn net them another 3% each next life. And it gives you a slightly smaller but permanent XP advantage (5% per life) as you Epic TR through more and more lives.

  4. #804
    Community Member magn0liafan's Avatar
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    Default So I finally came up with a proposal...

    Epic Advantage Proposal

    1.)Burn X ENTIRE destinies, X must be greater than 0. At least two Destines need to be capped for this, and one of them is bound, generating the Epic Past Life feat for the bound destiny.

    2.)Keep all Fate Points.

    3.)Gain Heroic XP equal to the amount of XP burned at a rate of 1:1. Should this XP put you over the level cap, the remaining is converted into Epic Destiny XP at a 2:1 ratio. (Old:New)

    4.)Epic Destines can only be burned on Epic True Reincarnation. The Heroic Reincarnation process does not affect Epic Destnies in any way, shape, or form.

    5.)Iconic True Reincarnation Recieves all the benefits of Epic True Reincarnation, aside from the following: Heroic XP is gained at a rate of 1 point earned for every 2 points burned. New Epic Destiny XP is still earned at a rate of 1 point earned for every 2 points earned.

    6.)Both Epic and Iconic True Reincarnation allows characters to begin with 38 point builds.

    7.)Epic and Iconic True Reincarnation remain on a 7 day timer. Lesser Reincarnations and Heroic True Reincarnations remain on a 3 day timer. Epic Destiny Progress is NOT tied to Heroic True Reincarnation or Lesser Reincarnation. No Epic Destiny Progress will be lost for Lesser Reincarnation or Heroic True Reincarnation.
    Last edited by magn0liafan; 06-14-2013 at 02:42 PM.
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  5. #805
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    Default You've Painted Yourselves Into a Corner

    Or, you made your bed, now lie in it... whichever adage works for you.

    Hi Piloto! Welcome to the DDO Forums, and thank you for developing.

    I think a little history is in order... Last year, when Menace was being developed and sold, things pretty much went like this: (in Dev Diary format )

    Turbine: "We're raising the level cap again! But things will be different this time."
    Fanbase: "Cool. The previous 4 raises to cap have been added to F2P, so that's kinda cool."
    Turbine: "Well, see, This level cap raise is actually a different XP system!"
    Fanbase: "What? Why? Why aren't you just extending the system that's already in place?"
    Turbine: "If we did that, we'd be expected to do stuff like come up with Prestige IV ranks and stuff, and we hate bards and some classes so much that we can't even be bothered to come up with Prestige IIIs for them."
    Turbine: "Plus, if we did that, you guys already expect us to give the cap increase. But this way, we get to give you the levels and sell you the enhancements!"
    Fanbase: "Hunh? What? That's bogus dude!"
    Turbine: "Yup! And to extort sales from you, we're gunna make the levels generic and not class levels."
    Fanbase: "I won't pay for that."
    Turbine: "What if we make the enhancements OP?"
    Fanbase: "No, really, still won't pay for that."
    Turbine: "How about if we make them persist, like tomes?"
    Fanbase: "Okay, maybe..."


    So, yea, here it is, a year later, and you have the money from last years sales... Now, do you really think reneging on all that and slapping your customers in the face, laughing while counting the money you conned out of them is a good business idea?

    You sold us a separate XP system, keep it separate.
    You sold us challenges citing that it's a non-penalized form of XP, and renegged on that too.
    You sold us Owlbear pets riding the success of the panther, and it doesn't even work.
    You're saying that Update 19 will be released unfinished, but you'll Add to it later (Like the current, unfinished prestige system, for years)
    You're saying that the Skill Augments not finished in U17, that would replace Guild Augment functionality is coming at a later date.
    Your proposed implementation for certain prestige trees is to move the level 12 Prestige II ability to a capstone.


    (snip)

    Oh, and another major design problem you've introduced is that as mob CR scales, their saves, to-hit, and hp increase in a parabolic curve, but since changing over to the epic generic levels player ability increases on a logarithmic curve. The disparity between these two is already why you see wizards in magister refusing to run Gianthold. We can't keep up, because you set it up that way.

    (snip)

    Last edited by Cordovan; 06-14-2013 at 03:57 PM. Reason: removing insults
    Turbine, you need to finish your existing grand sweeping projects before undertaking this one. You have demonstrated that you do not go back to things unfinshed after deadline.

    Note: Cordovan removed the opinion of post-WB ownership, but didn't deny that they hate bards
    Last edited by Systern; 06-14-2013 at 03:11 PM. Reason: removing insults

  6. #806
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    I also think that anyone who ETRs should lose ALL epic XPs and EDs (not fate points though) except for the ones they've bonded. No grandfathering for the shearing/rustedblades/pre-change epic challenge grinders who maxxed them out in a weekend or two. No grandfathering for players who have earned their EDs over many months through playing all the 40-odd epic level quests a few times each and from slayers because they enjoyed doing it like me. It's just the price of epic TRing.
    Sorry, I gained EDs through normal play because Turbine assured me that they would remain through TR. Making that statement and then not compensating me for my effort is not acceptable to me. I don't think it will be acceptable to a lot of other people as well.

    This plus the disappointment that WILL result from the enhancement pass could equal DDO's own NGE. Do you think that it will survive?

  7. #807
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).
    It seems like this is the answer to what happens to the ED xp of those who have many or are capped: you get low level Heroic Ranks. Yay, no thank you.

  8. #808

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    All I need to know is this: When will this go live? I need to finish all tring on all alts I have rolled up (and now, because of this, EVER WILL roll up) before this goes live to avoid getting screwed by this horrible design change.

    As long as I get my tring in before then I'll be good to go. Of course, by then I'll just have that last life to finish leveling, and then, well, the boredom and monotony will set in since I'll only be able to run endgame content instead of the 250 heroic quests, so I guess I can start looking for a new game.

    I just need to know the release date. It will also help me get used to the idea of leaving ddo if I have a firm "you get 2 more months to play" kind of timerframe.

  9. #809
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    The question is how many pages full of nerd-rage will it take to sink in that this whole idea is a big bucket of fail?

    We're at 40 now. 50? 100?

    There's no point in changing a system people love and that makes Turbine money if it's going to kill the only aspect of the game that keeps it afloat.

    People will stop TRing, this will lead to them eventually stop playing.
    no number of pages will be enough, see guildrenown decay, enhancements, bugs, account security, forums, crafting, customer service.

    been trying to figure out the real reason for this thread. my guess is sales are low for the new adventurepack, oops i mean expansion.

  10. #810
    Community Member Robai's Avatar
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    I vote yes for this:
    1) when Heroic TR you lose no ED xp at all (i.e. please don't change this)
    2) when Epic TR you lose just the bonded ED's xp (i.e. all other EDs xp remains).
    3) raise needed xp for ETR1, more for ETR2. Cap it at ETR2 (i.e. xp needed: ETR2 = ETR3 = ETR4 = ...).
    4) you lose some EDs points in other EDs though, because by 3) after ETR1 xp need for ED cap is higher now, but you don't lose xp, just the xp cap was increased (and thus the xp needed for ED's point was increased too).
    Last edited by TheRobai; 06-14-2013 at 03:07 PM. Reason: added 4)

  11. #811
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fourrumtest View Post
    no number of pages will be enough, see guildrenown decay, enhancements, bugs, account security, forums, crafting, customer service.

    been trying to figure out the real reason for this thread. my guess is sales are low for the new adventurepack, oops i mean expansion.
    I'm wondering if our reaction is catching them by surprise?

    Did they think this would be embraced as a good idea?

  12. #812

  13. #813
    Community Member Permian's Avatar
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    Default No and no

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I'm wondering if our reaction is catching them by surprise?

    Did they think this would be embraced as a good idea?
    After the most recent post it's blatantly obvious they have no intention of letting us keep destiny xp. I have no faith that this will change.
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  14. #814
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrag View Post
    You might want to revisit _enhancements_ when you talk about past life _feats_.
    I am a total noob, and even I know that a barb pl feat means I can take all the toughness _enhancements_ for free. Thats 80 hp, not 10, and its a feat in my pocket that I didn't burn pointlessly on toughness. All said enhancements say "requirement, toughness feat _or_ barbarian past life". IMO, that blows. I HATE being forced to burn a feat on toughness.
    It's not 80 HP for free, it 10HP for free and access to another 70HP (or more) IF you have the availability of the Toughness Enhancements available to you for 10 Action Points (or more).
    While you may not like having to spend a Feat on Toughness many/most players who build melees do regardless of which life they are on. But that is another argument all together.

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  15. #815
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    1. With the current design... ...Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play...
    How dose it mean that TR with preserving ED XP is avoiding epic level play? Yes, ED is powerful, It's true, but the real power of ED is synergied by the higher epic level of the character, not Epic Destiny. They can't avoid their epic level play. Also, Don't you know It's painful that They should change their Epic Destiny to all of non-related class ED such as Wizard for Exalted Angel, Artificer for Primal Avatar, plus without ToF Points? If you gonna keep ppl's ToF Points, They won't be got that much mad.
    Last edited by Targal; 06-14-2013 at 02:57 PM.

  16. #816
    Community Manager Cordovan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I would HATE this. Let me rephrase: I WILL hate this, because this is clearly the path you're choosing and nothing will dissuade you.
    Wrong. Please, remember that this is more of a brainstorming session than it is a set in stone announcement about what's coming.

    Additionally, while we appreciate people's passionate opinions about this issue, the amount of rage in this thread needs to be lowered. Nothing is set in stone. Repeat:

    NOTHING IS SET IN STONE.

    I have frequently read on the forums that folks would like to see more back and forth with the developers in regards to hot issues undergoing development work. This is your chance to do so in a way that doesn't amount to screaming in someone's face. Keep in mind that there's a lot of discussion taking place based on your feedback, but a lot of that discussion will not be made public until it's in a state to put out there as a possibility or an idea being put forward for feedback.
    Have fun, and don't forget to gather for buffs!
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  17. #817
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).
    Hi,
    The problem with this reasoning is that you cannot compare heroic leveling with epic leveling. Getting xp for EDs is a very unrewarding task, as most EDs have nothing good to offer a class. In addition, if you are leveling an ED, then you are going to be a liability in Epic Elites. There two factors together are what causes people to grind high xp quests over and over at cap. It would be awesome if we could run EEs and still get xp. But we cannot.

    If this were to be implemented as is, I imagine most people that have maxed their EDs would not TR ever again. However, TRing is one of the few things that keeps this game fresh for a lot of veterans. As it stands there are only two raids worth running at end-game. With the expansion not having any raids, I imagine all the relevant gear from the quests in the expansion will be acquired in a month or two. We will then be in a situation where there is no content where we need gear from, and the prospect of losing +21 million xp if we decide to TR.

    Can you see how that would make a lot of people leave the game?

  18. #818
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    Quote Originally Posted by Permian View Post
    After the most recent post it's blatantly obvious they have no intention of letting us keep destiny xp. I have no faith that this will change.
    My only glimmer of hope is the only time I've seen the community so united against a change was raid loot being used in Cannith crafting. The players that actually play the game understood how damaging that change would have been to the community, they spoke up loud and clear, and the change was taken out. I'm hoping if we keep stating calmly and decisively that we simply won't take part in the changes they're proposing that it will finally sink in and they'll realize that they're completely wrong in this case as well.

    Ultimately it's Turbine's decision about whether to listen to us or not. However it's our decision about whether to reward them with our hard earned money, whether to tell these cautionary tales in every single group (especially when TR'ing with new players), to encourage these new players to avoid all of Turbine's overpriced and unnecessary (and in the cases of xp pots used to level ED's pure thievery) store options, to speak out to gaming web sites and let them know how Turbine is treating their customers, to take to Twitter and Facebook (especially Twitter where Turbine has no say about what we post) and spread the word about how Turbine is treating their customers. In short, it's our choice as customers to make sure Turbine is sorry for treating their customers so poorly.

    Edit: After Cordovan's latest post I'm going to call my previous paragraph 'setting phasers to kill'. I'm willing to keep the phasers set to stun for the time being. But my patience is running thin - more toward the Kirk level of patience than Picard at the moment.
    Last edited by Darkrok; 06-14-2013 at 03:06 PM.
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  19. #819

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Wrong. Please, remember that this is more of a brainstorming session than it is a set in stone announcement about what's coming.

    Additionally, while we appreciate people's passionate opinions about this issue, the amount of rage in this thread needs to be lowered. Nothing is set in stone. Repeat:

    NOTHING IS SET IN STONE.

    I have frequently read on the forums that folks would like to see more back and forth with the developers in regards to hot issues undergoing development work. This is your chance to do so in a way that doesn't amount to screaming in someone's face. Keep in mind that there's a lot of discussion taking place based on your feedback, but a lot of that discussion will not be made public until it's in a state to put out there as a possibility or an idea being put forward for feedback.
    I flat-out don't believe you.

    Tell you what, raise the cannith challenge xp like you said you would last year and I'll consider giving you the benefit of the doubt on this issue. Remember that? How you guys easily nerfed challenge xp twice in a week with the flip of a switch, no update or server downtime needed, but then you said you'd raise it back except that the "formula was complicated to balance" and that you're working on it but it likely won't happen by the end of the year 2012. That was last August you said that.

  20. #820
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Wrong. Please, remember that this is more of a brainstorming session than it is a set in stone announcement about what's coming.

    Additionally, while we appreciate people's passionate opinions about this issue, the amount of rage in this thread needs to be lowered. Nothing is set in stone. Repeat:

    NOTHING IS SET IN STONE.

    I have frequently read on the forums that folks would like to see more back and forth with the developers in regards to hot issues undergoing development work. This is your chance to do so in a way that doesn't amount to screaming in someone's face. Keep in mind that there's a lot of discussion taking place based on your feedback, but a lot of that discussion will not be made public until it's in a state to put out there as a possibility or an idea being put forward for feedback.
    Track record is what it is Cordovan. I will say that I've still got my phasers set to stun so to speak simply out of giving you guys the benefit of the doubt. But I loathe being lied to and wiping ED xp on a heroic TR is tantamount to being lied to. Everything else is negotiable to me. I have principles though and I won't sell them out for a game, no matter how enjoyable.

    Edit: The only other time I've been this angry about the way you guys treated customers is when you were advertising Artificers as being free to VIP's while not having any way in game of VIP's opening up Artificers. I actually cancelled my sub at that point and was ready to walk away and in that case you made it right (enough) by removing the misleading ads. This time there really is only one right though - giving players the choice whether to wipe ED xp on heroic TR's just like we were promised from the beginning.
    Last edited by Darkrok; 06-14-2013 at 03:04 PM.
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

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