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  1. #661

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    Quote Originally Posted by Levonestral View Post
    Writing to have fallen on deaf ears, but writing because I feel I need to at least say it.


    The new Epic TR plan isn't exactly what I was hoping for. To me the idea of "Epic" TR'ing suggested that I could continue playing my "epic" characters in epic content. I was hoping it would reset us back to level 20 and we'd continue down our epic path once again. I wasn't expecting huge powerful gains, just nice benefits for choosing to run the epic content more often.

    That said, what they are suggesting isn't bad, just not quite what I had hoped for.


    With the exception of one thing: Deleting your previous ED xp.


    ED experience was promised to be kept after TR's. This is why so many people are now upset with Turbine because for many people like myself, we decided to spend a significant amount of time and energy working on our ED plans instead of working on TRs. We felt that we would be safe in our decision because it was stated, by Turbine, that we would keep our earned ED experience so we chose to focus our play time working on this area of the game instead.

    It's not like we were using something that wasn't "quite right" (like evasion working in medium armor). This was something that Turbine specifically stated would not be affected by TR's, giving people the false sense of safety in their future endevors.

    Now comes along their decision to change that plan, slighting a large group of players for something that we were originally promised would not happen.

    Players are left feeling ripped off. All our time, effort, xp pots etc, all "wasted". Sorry but trading in one destiny level for a single heroic rank is not acceptable. What's worse is that those ranks push us into levels where we'd still have to go back and run the content anyway just for the purpose of favor (bank, pack space etc).

    There have been a lot of great suggestions for handling the "lost" xp. Please listen to them and take them into consideration.


    This all said, the plan itself isn't bad but it should have been put in place long before this so that people could have positioned themselves better without being left feeling ripped off by being mis-lead by other Turbine employees.

    The biggest problem with ED's is that a player is forced to grind out experience in destinies that provide very little to no benefits for their character while playing it, just for the purpose of grinding out fate points. There isn't much fun involved in that which is why you see so many endless grind-a-thons running the same 2-3 quests just to "get this over with". Is that really what you wanted your players to do?

    I have never been a big fan of that design, but sucked it up and have done several 4/2/1 and 4/1/1 mixes over the last few months. I'm now being told that all that work will be lost should I ever choose to TR my character again. Ouch.

    I could live with some of the losses should we be allowed to keep all our fate points from our previous lives and only be forced to re-grind the destinies we want to twist again. Not a great solution, but better than what's being suggested now.


    I've touched base on this before about ED's vs Fate Points and I'll rehash it again here. I truely believe (especially now) that fate points and destiny experience need to be separated so that you can continue earning fate points regardless of your current destiny. This allows players to enjoy the game more while playing their characters the way they were intended. You could make the fate point experience higher, but a flat rate possibly, I'm not sure. I just know that the current form is not really working well, and with the new plan they've suggested, will only make things even less desireable.

    Combined with that, I also think that the connection between destinies needs to be removed. Allow us to choose any destiny we want from anywhere in the tree. If we're going to be forced to have it all deleted upon each TR, then we should only have to do the one's we want and not be forced to grind our way around the tree again.


    Turbine, you have a great game, and from time to time you come up with great idea's (I love the new augment system). This one isn't bad, but please listen to your players and make adjustments to it based on everyone who will be affected.

    Remember, one of the major issues everyone is having is that up until now you've promised us that our ED xp would be maintained and now you're saying it won't be.

    Thanks for listening
    Some excellent points there.

    As I have said before and will repeat.

    Keeping our fate counter : epic destiny levels earned / 3 = fate points is essential to our happiness.
    Keeping our currently unlocked epic destiny map still unlocked is essential to our happiness.

    Most players are extremely uncomfortable with blowing up epic destiny xp with epic disadvantage.

    Having to play in an epic destiny that does not help your build is not happiness.

  2. #662
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RightToRemainStupid View Post
    In my experience, most people with this attitude aren't very good players and tend to look for excuses to avoid situations where this will become apparent to others. I've seen it time and time again on these forums, often from some of the most vocal and trollish posters, who often chime in with their opinions regarding parts of the game even they themsleves admit they prefer to avoid. TR'ing is just a safer, less challenging form of grind, that allows people to stay in their comfort zones.
    Bad players need to feel tough somehow.

  3. #663
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levonestral View Post
    That said, what they are suggesting isn't bad, just not quite what I had hoped for.


    With the exception of one thing: Deleting your previous ED xp.


    ED experience was promised to be kept after TR's. This is why so many people are now upset with Turbine because for many people like myself, we decided to spend a significant amount of time and energy working on our ED plans instead of working on TRs. We felt that we would be safe in our decision because it was stated, by Turbine, that we would keep our earned ED experience so we chose to focus our play time working on this area of the game instead.

    It's not like we were using something that wasn't "quite right" (like evasion working in medium armor). This was something that Turbine specifically stated would not be affected by TR's, giving people the false sense of safety in their future endevors.

    Now comes along their decision to change that plan, slighting a large group of players for something that we were originally promised would not happen.

    Players are left feeling ripped off. All our time, effort, xp pots etc, all "wasted". Sorry but trading in one destiny level for a single heroic rank is not acceptable. What's worse is that those ranks push us into levels where we'd still have to go back and run the content anyway just for the purpose of favor (bank, pack space etc).

    There have been a lot of great suggestions for handling the "lost" xp. Please listen to them and take them into consideration.
    Exactly this. It may not have been Turbine's intention. They may have just overlooked the effect this change would have. But the only way that we, the players that spent in some cases hundreds of our hours on the repeated promise that TR'ing would not wipe our ED xp, feel lied to and cheated. That's not how good DM's treat their gamers and it's not how businesses that stay in business treat their customers. There's time for Turbine to fix that but it's going to take a lot of repairing to mend what they broke here. It's not just the game change itself that's a problem - it's the fact that they even considered it in the first place and what that does to people's outlooks the next time they ask us to have a little faith and wait to see what comes out.
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  4. #664

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    All good questions for the Devs.
    We await your responses with baited breath and raised pitchforks...

    We can only hope they are reading and going to have a serious meeting in the near future.
    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    1) I assume that since an ED is locked once you epic TR it means you can gain the epic TR destiny feat once and only once. Is that correct.

    2) Once you epic TR from each destiny, I assume this would entitle the player to epic completionist. Will this be an autogrant or selectable feat?

    3) If I epic TR to an iconic and have maxed ED this will take me to 28. Do I still need to grind to fill out a new destiny or does the epic advantage include ED experience?

    4) Would you be open to the idea of offering a heroic TR option that allowed players to keep their ED. That way Epic TR is optional and people still have a way to gain past life feats without messing up their ED tree. This is especially important since people may want to get new past life feats due to the enhancement pass and other changes
    IMHO which may be wrong
    #1 Seems so.

    #2 I am hoping all Past Life feats become passive and auto grant.
    We need our feat slots to make normal choices.

    #3 is an excellent question.

    #4 is essential to keep people from leaving the game for good.
    other comments - I am not requesting a response to these
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    My first reaction was very much like everyone else's reaction - **** - I am losing my ED experience except for one tree. ED farming generates at least 400k xp/hour and more if the group is a bit faster. With that it means capping al ED would take around 55 hours or so. If I epic TR into an iconic with maxed EDs I will cap to 28 immediately and can then do another Epic TR unless I need to still fill out a tree. This would easily save me 55 hours so I am not grumbling quite as much as yesterday. Not to mention much of that xp was accumulated running quests I would have run anyhow so the actual grinding was probably under 50 hours..

    Not everyone grinds for ED so for some people the time investment is much more than 55 hours.
    Indeed, I only have one toon with capped ED XP which is less than some players.
    I got bored with doing it on my raid cleric, and after seeing the alpha enhancements,
    retired her to korthos.

    Blow up Epic Destiny Xp with Epic Disadvantage is a serious, serious candy stealing project.

  5. #665

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    Exactly this. It may not have been Turbine's intention. They may have just overlooked the effect this change would have. But the only way that we, the players that spent in some cases hundreds of our hours on the repeated promise that TR'ing would not wipe our ED xp, feel lied to and cheated. That's not how good DM's treat their gamers and it's not how businesses that stay in business treat their customers. There's time for Turbine to fix that but it's going to take a lot of repairing to mend what they broke here. It's not just the game change itself that's a problem - it's the fact that they even considered it in the first place and what that does to people's outlooks the next time they ask us to have a little faith and wait to see what comes out.
    Passes out torches and pitchforks but reminds the villagers to mind their language.

  6. #666
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    Oh, and a lot of people have been asking that the people complaining post compelling solutions. There have been some lengthy solutions posted. Honestly though the only solution needed on the heroic TR end is that 'epic advantage' be either optional or scrapped. That fixed everything for heroic TR's.

    Epic TR'ing...I honestly don't feel that strongly about. I'm sure there are others out there that will but I can't feel lied to or cheated that a new system being added wipes out ED xp. They never promised us that some future, optional feature wouldn't wipe that xp. Some people may have expected it to be different...I certainly wouldn't have expected a complete wipe either...but that's just it - Turbine never promised us it wouldn't.

    I don't mind changes to the game that are new as long as Turbine thinks they're in the best interest of the game. It's when they change mechanics that they repeatedly promised were WAI and assured us were safe that I get upset. It's not the grind so much as what it indicates about how they value their word and what that means about ANY progression I make on my characters.
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  7. #667
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    Passes out torches and pitchforks but reminds the villagers to mind their language.
    Lol...you scared me...I thought somehow I'd slipped something bad into my post and had to reread it three times to make sure I hadn't.
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  8. #668

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    I'm on Ghallanda most days, feel free to pop along for a chat.
    If I am ever over there, I would love to quest with you.
    You seem a intelligent player.

  9. #669

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    Oh, and a lot of people have been asking that the people complaining post compelling solutions. There have been some lengthy solutions posted. Honestly though the only solution needed on the heroic TR end is that 'epic advantage' be either optional or scrapped. That fixed everything for heroic TR's.
    Indeed, this is essential, Epic Disadvantage must be optional.

  10. #670

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    Oh, and a lot of people have been asking that the people complaining post compelling solutions.
    Adjust heroic legend xp at high levels a bit.
    Shift epic xp to be more in line with epic destiny xp.


    So maybe something like this:

    Anytime you Epic TR, a dialog opens up.
    "Which capped Epic Destiny would you like to bind
    and gain the past life for?"

    At that point you choose which Destiny you wish.
    This prevents people accidently being in the wrong destiny.
    This epic destiny applies to epic advantage and its xp
    is reset to zero.

    Also anytime you use any kind of TR, another dialog opens up.
    "Would you like to use Epic Advantage?"

    You can reply yes or no.

    If the answer if no, then you keep all your epic destiny xp
    except an epic destiny that is capped and will be bound during this TR.

    If the answer is yes, then you can mark one by one,
    each unbound epic destiny you would like to convert to heroic xp.
    {The reason one would want to do this is to farm more
    fate points in an enjoyable destiny.}

    If you heroic TR, everything else remains the same.

    Iconic TRing allows you to TR into an Iconic Class without
    binding any Epic Destinies.

    If you are Epic TRing then you receive either a class past life
    or an iconic past life depending on what your current character is.

    With epic TRing your new life starts at level 1 as heroic class or level 15 as iconic class.
    You are granted bonus xp for any epic advantage applied. This xp
    is hard capped and you must take it before earning more xp.

    When you reach epic levels and gain a level in any epic destiny
    whether it has been reset or not this level is added to your fate counter:
    epic destiny levels gained / 3 = fate points

    Heroic Class Completionist becomes an auto grant feat at level one.
    It is the same as the normal Completionist feat.

    Iconic Completionist becomise an auto grant feat at level one.
    It grants you a bonus feat?

    Epic Completionist becomes an auto grant feat at level twenty.
    It grants you an extra twist slot and X fate points.

    For every four Epic Destinies bound you receive an extra twist slot.
    Twist remain capped at level four.

    Any destiny that was previously unlocked remains unlock for the next life,
    regardless of ED XP resets.

  11. #671
    Founder Kylstrem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Just to address people's passionate comments and opinions here: Keep in mind that this information is being presented to you far in advance of its implementation, and there's plenty of room to re-work the proposal in a variety of ways.
    The reason people are passionate is twofold;

    1) They really like this game,
    2) They know that once something is announced on these forums by Turbine, rarely does it change for the better when it is finally implemented. It usually gets worse (e.g. You can take Paralyzing off of one weapon and stick it on another, We will have a raid with the High Road Update, We have finally eliminated lag).... now, those were all Fernando quotes... and he's been kept away from the forums for a long time... so maybe Glin can get some benefit of the doubt... BUT, what we don't need is Cordovan become the equivalent of this guy:


  12. #672

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    I will repeat.

    We need our feats for normal build stuff.

    We rarely take any past life feats that cost a feat slot to have.

    The few we consider taking often:
    Completionist
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Past_Life:_Arcane_Initiate
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Past_Life:_Disciple_of_the_Fist


    Please if you are reworking the TR system take this into account.
    Auto grant is much better, we need our feats to make the same choices everyone else does.

    Current TR advantages do not scale well at all.
    Uber in the harbor, so so in Epics.

  13. #673
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kylstrem View Post
    BUT, what we don't need is Cordovan become the equivalent of this guy:

    If I was him with my retarded sense of humor that'd be my avatar.

  14. #674
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
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    While we the players appreciate the preliminary information, there are simply too many vague points that have not been touched upon to offer any solid advice or ideas, IMO.

    Here is an alternate idea scheme:

    1. Heroic TR's - Change NOTHING.
    2. Epic TR's -

    Sets character back to level 20.
    You get 1 epic past life feat based on the destiny you currently have active (if capped).
    All Destiny xp is reset IN THAT ONE you just received a past life feat for.
    Fate points and twists remain exactly as they are.

    Simple, clean, and uncluttered.
    It never fails to amaze me how ridiculously convoluted you guys make things sometimes.
    KISS.
    <-Curelite Bottling Company->

    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude
    Dude, did you see they way that guy just pressed button 1? It was amazing! A display of skill unseen since the 1984 World Games where in the men's room, between events, a man washed his hands with such unbridled majesty that people were claiming the faucet he used was OP.

  15. #675

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    Past life auto grant goodies I want to see:

    A bonus feat.

    Spell Like Abilities that don't have finite uses per rest.

    Bonuses to Combat DC such as trip, stun, etc..

    Bonus fate points or the ability to keep earning them indefinitely.

    Bonus twist slots.

    Bonus to Spell DC Schools.

    Bonus to Spell Pen.

    Bonus to health take scales like toughness.

    Bonus to spell points that scales like mental toughness.

    Bonus to spell critical hits.

    DR breaking applied to weapons.

    Bonuses to PPR

    Extra Spell Slots

    Evasion

  16. #676

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    Quote Originally Posted by danotmano1998 View Post
    While we the players appreciate the preliminary information, there are simply too many vague points that have not been touched upon to offer any solid advice or ideas, IMO.

    Here is an alternate idea scheme:

    1. Heroic TR's - Change NOTHING.
    2. Epic TR's -

    Sets character back to level 20.
    You get 1 epic past life feat based on the destiny you currently have active (if capped).
    All Destiny xp is reset IN THAT ONE you just received a past life feat for.
    Fate points and twists remain exactly as they are.

    Simple, clean, and uncluttered.
    It never fails to amaze me how ridiculously convoluted you guys make things sometimes.
    KISS.
    I like the idea of an Epic TR that acts as a +0 lesser heart, returning you to level 20
    with an Epic Past Life.

    I like the only resetting of the xp in the past life destiny.

    Addition, please allow those wanting to combine Iconic + Epic past lives to do both
    at the same time.

    Heroic would not matter, as you could simply heroic TR right after the Epic if you choose to do so,
    thereby leaving heroic TRing completely alone.

  17. #677

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    So a bit of change?

    Heroic TRing works as normal without any changes at all.

    Iconic TRing is available at the 28~30ish range and does
    not affect your epic destiny xp at all.

    Anytime you Epic TR, a dialog opens up.
    "Which capped Epic Destiny would you like to bind
    and gain the past life for?"

    At that point you choose which Destiny you wish.
    This prevents people accidently being in the wrong destiny.
    This epic destiny applies to epic advantage and its xp
    is reset to zero.

    Also anytime you use any kind of TR, another dialog opens up.
    "Would you like to use Epic Advantage?"

    You can reply yes or no.

    If the answer if no, then you keep all your epic destiny xp
    except an epic destiny that is capped and will be bound during this TR.

    If the answer is yes, then you can mark one by one,
    each unbound epic destiny you would like to convert to heroic xp.
    {The reason one would want to do this is to farm more
    fate points in an enjoyable destiny.}

    A new dialog pops up.
    "Would you like to return to level 20 or begin a new life?"

    If you choose return to level 20, then you lose your epic
    levels and are placed on the heart of wind with a +0 lesser heart..

    If you are Epic TRing into a new life then you receive either a class past life
    or an iconic past life depending on what your current character is.

    With epic TRing your new life starts at level 1 as heroic class or level 15 as iconic class.
    You are granted bonus xp for any epic advantage applied. This xp
    is hard capped and you must take it before earning more xp.

    When you reach epic levels and gain a level in any epic destiny
    whether it has been reset or not this level is added to your fate counter:
    epic destiny levels gained / 3 = fate points

    Heroic Class Completionist becomes an auto grant feat at level one.
    It is the same as the normal Completionist feat.

    Iconic Completionist becomise an auto grant feat at level one.
    It grants you a bonus feat?

    Epic Completionist becomes an auto grant feat at level twenty.
    It grants you an extra twist slot and X fate points.

    For every four Epic Destinies bound you receive an extra twist slot.
    Twist remain capped at level four.

    Any destiny that was previously unlocked remains unlock for the next life,
    regardless of ED XP resets.

  18. #678
    Community Member DogMania's Avatar
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    Default Glin to Team

    Now come on guys its not long till me need to make the changes what Ideas you got?
    Devs - Sorry Glin we are struggling as since the cuts we don't have enough heads to think about it.
    Glin to Team - Well guys it realy is not good enough, Hey wait a minute ive got a brilliant idea
    Devs - And whats that Glin?
    Glin - Well how about we post a lot of ******** up and then after the fireworks digest what is posted and use the best?
    Devs - Wow Glin what a great idea that will save us some headaches as when they complain about the final release we can then blame them

    And the moral of the story is "Why buy a dog and bark yourself"

  19. #679

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    Lol

  20. #680

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    Quote Originally Posted by DogMania View Post
    Now come on guys its not long till me need to make the changes what Ideas you got?
    Devs - Sorry Glin we are struggling as since the cuts we don't have enough heads to think about it.
    Glin to Team - Well guys it realy is not good enough, Hey wait a minute ive got a brilliant idea
    Devs - And whats that Glin?
    Glin - Well how about we post a lot of ******** up and then after the fireworks digest what is posted and use the best?
    Devs - Wow Glin what a great idea that will save us some headaches as when they complain about the final release we can then blame them

    And the moral of the story is "Why buy a dog and bark yourself"
    Sooooo funny, thanks for the laugh, I needed that.

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