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  1. #561
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Opensezame View Post
    From what I can see, the majority of you posting in this thread want the best of everything for the least work put in. I agree there needs to be a few changes to these proposals, but did you really think epic TR'ing was going to be easy???

    Did you really think they were going to give you all these benefits for doing something very similar to what was in place for Heroic TR'ing?

    I remember when TR'ing was first implemented on the EU servers. We had no shop to buy a true heart of wood, stones were bound to character, and the only viable quest to do at epic to get your 20 tokens was wiz king that took around 1 hour 40 mins to complete and you could only do it once per day.

    If you came across anybody in game that was a legend build you knew they had worked on it for several months rather than several weeks.

    Go and play another game if receiving a challenge is too much for you.
    There's no in-game challenge (psychological challenge, yes) in TRing many times.

    There IS, however, a considerable amount of time invested already that will completely be invalidated, adding on hundreds of hours MORE of farming.

    BTW, the type of scenario you're describing is the type of scenario you should force on DDO when you want to see it die.
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  2. #562
    Community Member Sokól's Avatar
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    I like change but the change has to be fair to the work already put in.
    Argonnessen: Hilmir - Purkilius - Jinu - Vignir @ Blood Assassin´s

  3. #563

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    What would be helpful is to gather the concensus from the now 26 pages of replies - ignore completely all the plebs who just post that Turbine as a company hate their players, hate the game, etc etc - and come back with confirmation after an internal meeting to clarify just a few things:
    (1) That Heroic TRing will not affect ED XP in any way
    (2) That Epic TRing is designed to be an optional path for players and that future content will not be scaled on the assumption of Epic Destiny Past Lives
    (3) That there will be further discussions on what the Epic Advantage will be for players who already have their ED's capped, and that some one-time-only-boon is being considered
    (4) That you will be free to Epic TR any time that you are at level cap (level 28) whether or not you have an unbonded destiny available, but you will only gain an ED Past Life Feat and have your ED XP reset, if you have an unbonded destiny active *
    (5) That the Heroic XP curve will not be affected
    (6) That Heroic XP for individual quests will be revised to provide additional viable levelling paths
    (7) That the ED XP curve will not be affected
    (8) That the Epic XP curve is being reduced, and provide specific details of the new proposal (with the caveat that it is subject to change)

    I think that this would address the majority of the concerns.

    * The reason for this is that you can only Epic TR into an Iconic, and with 3 Past Life Feats on 4 Iconics, that means 12 Iconic Past Life Feats, when you only have 11 Epic Destinies. Which would present a problem as follows:
    Life 1 - 20 Wizard/8 Epic, Magister ED -> Epic TR
    Life 2 - 20 Sorcerer/8 Epic, Draconic ED -> Epic TR
    Life 3 - 20 Bladeforged/8 Epic, Fatesinger ED -> Epic TR
    Life 4 - 20 Bladeforged/8 Epic, Shadowdancer ED -> Epic TR
    Life 5 - 20 Bladeforged/8 Epic, Legendary Dreadnought ED -> Epic TR
    Life 6 - 20 Purple Dragon Knight/8 Epic, Shiradi ED -> Epic TR
    Life 7 - 20 Purple Dragon Knight/8 Epic, Fury of the Wild ED -> Epic TR
    Life 8 - 20 Purple Dragon Knight/8 Epic, Primal Avatar ED -> Epic TR
    Life 9 - 20 Shadar-Kai/8 Epic, Grandmaster of Flowers ED -> Epic TR
    Life 10 - 20 Shadar-Kai/8 Epic, Unyielding Sentinel ED -> Epic TR
    Life 11 - 20 Shadar-Kai/8 Epic, Exalted Angel ED -> Epic TR
    Life 12 - 20 Morninglord/8 Epic, Exalted Angel ED -> ....... oops, can't Epic TR again because we've not more unbonded ED's
    Thank you, and please Cordovan start typing up and summarizing this thread.

    Those of you with pitchfork, the torches are available now.
    http://ddowiki.com/index.php?search=...ecial%3ASearch

    Please watch our language but holler out.

    Again the whole class / iconic past life should be separated form ED TR
    Last edited by Silverleafeon; 06-13-2013 at 08:39 PM.

  4. #564
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    Default Fantasy world? DDO?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacobius View Post
    Do you really honestly think it is only a weekend grind to cap destinies for most players?????

    If so you live in a fantasy world.
    If we didn't live in a fantasy world, this convo wouldn't exist.
    http://myaccount.turbine.com

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  5. #565

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    A bit of birds eye view here.

    If one will not lose epic destiny xp upon a heroic TR or iconic TR, then binding an ED is no longer valid.

    If so, then you can allow one to gain multiple Epic Destiny Past Lives, since there is nothing to
    protect the Ed from being lost.

    If so, you could allow the option to Epic TR, turning in all capped epic destinies for
    a single past life in each one. Any non capped EDs should be left alone.

    Other options should be available.
    Last edited by Silverleafeon; 06-13-2013 at 08:39 PM.

  6. #566
    Community Member magn0liafan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    i aint smhart when it comes to numbers like that, but its no wonder i actually feel like im working when i ED farm and not playing to have fun. the proposed change would make me want to just lose interest and eventually quit. my average play time dropped from 5-6 hours daily to 2 hours when i started ED farming.

    your math is probably best case scenario for those group zerg runs, but for me its worse. it takes me 7 minutes because i solo farm, no haste and my barb don't got DDoor, except for when she was in Shadowdancer. i didn't want to give that up when i switched destiny. i can complete Rusted Blades in 4 minutes, but it takes 3 minutes to run back to the quest giver and back to the quest. it makes having the new recall so much better now.
    I was merely quoting another individual's assumption for the "two minute run".
    But... at 7 minutes per run.....

    177 hours, 21 minutes, 26.77 seconds.

    Hi. My name's magn0liafan, and I'm a number cruncher.
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  7. #567
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Opensezame View Post
    From what I can see, the majority of you posting in this thread want the best of everything for the least work put in. I agree there needs to be a few changes to these proposals, but did you really think epic TR'ing was going to be easy???

    Did you really think they were going to give you all these benefits for doing something very similar to what was in place for Heroic TR'ing?

    I remember when TR'ing was first implemented on the EU servers. We had no shop to buy a true heart of wood, stones were bound to character, and the only viable quest to do at epic to get your 20 tokens was wiz king that took around 1 hour 40 mins to complete and you could only do it once per day.

    If you came across anybody in game that was a legend build you knew they had worked on it for several months rather than several weeks.

    Go and play another game if receiving a challenge is too much for you.
    you don't have an epic character do you

    im all for challenge and im right there preaching how we need more of it in game, but i don't think you mean to use the word "challenge". there is no challenge in grinding out xp for fate points and leveling through useless destinies which limit you to what you really can do in the game. that's why people grind out Rusted Blades since its the fastest and easiest quest to level through destinies. i wont do anything else with my character as long as she is farming for fate points because there is a noticeable difference in character ability. ive already invested hours upon hours upon hours which has resulted in more than 2 weeks of ED farming since im down to 2 hours a day playing. i call it work and not having fun playing a game. i could have TR'd another character for a 3rd life and had him capped in the amount of time its taking me to get the twists i want and i would have played an average of 5-6 hours daily like i was doing before. its not challenging and the proposed changes would make it insanity.

  8. #568
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    "Life 12 - 20 Morninglord/8 Epic, Exalted Angel ED -> ....... oops, can't Epic TR again because we've not more unbonded ED's"

    And there you have your epic completionist
    I am a refugee of Devourer, abandoned by Coadmasters and washed up on the shores of the new world Thelanis under the rule of the Turbine empire. The locals are primative, the monsters are tough, and to survive in this savage land i must live by one philosophy... trust no one.

  9. #569
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by magn0liafan View Post
    I was merely quoting another individual's assumption for the "two minute run".
    But... at 7 minutes per run.....

    177 hours, 21 minutes, 26.77 seconds.

    Hi. My name's magn0liafan, and I'm a number cruncher.
    i hate my life

  10. #570
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    • True Reincarnation has always been about giving up your current life in exchange for increased power in your next life. We are early enough in the design work that we want to also hear ideas from players on what types of destiny feats they’d like to see in their next life in exchange for reincarnating their destinies.
    Amusingly, when TR was first brought to the game what many players clamored for was a way to repair characters with race/class choices made suboptimal by game changes. Iirc the TR benefits was stated as minor additions of scant importance just as a small compensation for having to relevel a character. (ofc anyone could see they weren't of scant importance which also was argued about)

    Remind me, if my character has a race/class combination that due to changes to the game does not perform optimally for it's intended purpose, what reliable non-store option do I have for changing race and class?
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    On a tangent I'm quite on the fence regarding the PLs even though I initially was heavily opposed to them. In retrospect, same as hard to aquire raid loot they keep the players running the hamster wheel. Keep the population higher, even at lower level, facilitating grouping. OTOH the time-required-for-viability, i.e. how much time you must spend on a character before being capable of doing X, e.g. being able to join that "lvl 20-25 normal shroud, link BB and demonstrate capped ED" or such, is vastly increased.

  11. #571
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Opensezame View Post
    "Life 12 - 20 Morninglord/8 Epic, Exalted Angel ED -> ....... oops, can't Epic TR again because we've not more unbonded ED's"

    And there you have your epic completionist
    Yes, but you can still heroic TR until you get Completionist, Triple Completionist, New FotM build, etc at any epic point.

    Since the Epic PLs require the destiny to be unbonded (and level 28), you just can't get Triple stacks of those.

  12. #572
    Community Member Beethoven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    Ihr seit so blöd wie 3 Reihen Salat.
    Depatah, wanst nix g'scheits zum sog'n hast waers besser wennst dei' bledes moi haeutst. That's Viennese for I appreciate your well thought out input. See? I can do that too, in dialect even.

    On topic, the system isn't bad if taken by itself and in /direct/ comparison I actually like it more than what we have. From where I am sitting Turbine's failure is less with the new system but with waiting a year between release of the EDs and Epic TRs. Both systems should have been released simultaneously, not so far apart where everyone and their monkey already went through the motions.

    It turns maximizing your EDs more into a long term project, which I always thought it should have been to begin with. Despite all the over the top melodramatics in this thread, capping all EDs is not an enormous grind but something than can be done in a few weeks time by even a casual player (and less for hardcores).

    Frankly, it took me longer to grind ToD rings for my toons back in the day than it took me to grind out all 11 EDs. It may be comparable doing a single TR but certainly not months of hard work (months would imply several hundred hours of game time devoted exclusively to leveling EDs, that's just silly).

    The second advantage of the proposed system is that it removes the silliness where the most effective way to level your EDs is having your Barbarian run around with Fatesinger, Magister and other (off) Destinies. It is neither fun nor does it make a lot of sense thematically.

    From where I am sitting Turbine's failure is less with the new system but with waiting a year between release of the EDs and Epic TRs. Both systems should have been released simultaneously, not so far apart where everyone and their monkey already went through the motions.

    Personally I think the best way to address this issue at this point is to either

    a. seperate the processes of Heroic and Epic TR further and allow people to keep their Destiny XP/levels in Heroic TRs with only Epic TR resetting Epic Destinies (except the bonded one, of course).

    b. increase the benefit Epic Advantage: one Heroic rank for a full level in an Epic Destiny is a bad deal not matter how you slice or dice it. Myself I would even go so far to say a good start would be a full (Epic) TR for each Circle (ie: you have Fatesinger, Draconic Incarnation and Magister capped and Epic TR you gain enough XP in return to skip a full life).
    Characters on Sarlona: Ungnad (Morninglord, Wizard 17 / Favored Soul 2 / Fighter 1) -- Baerktghar (Dwarf, Paladin 18 / Fighter 2) -- Simulacruhm (Bladeforged, Artificer 16 / Paladin 3 / Wizard 1)

    No matter what side of the argument you are on, you always find people on your side that you wish were on the other.
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  13. #573

    Default Can we Iconic + Epic TR together?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Life 12 - 20 Morninglord/8 Epic, Exalted Angel ED -> ....... oops, can't Epic TR again because we've not more unbonded ED's
    I fail to see why Epic TRing is associated with Iconics here?

    Did I miss something?

    Hmm...

    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    I
    A few goals for Epic Destiny TR:


    • Extend Reincarnation system to allow for 38-point builds
    • Include Epic Destinies in the TR cycle (with Epic Destiny Past Life Feats)
    • Reward you for additional investment in Epic Destinies (with starting ranks after TR)
    • Adjust the XP curve in Epic levels for multi-life TR to avoid the dramatic escalating grind
    • Include Iconics in the TR cycle (with Iconic Past Life Feats)
    • Allow you to TR into and out of Iconics (if you own Iconics)


    Epic Destiny True Reincarnation


    • Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)
    • Grants an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat
      • Feat based on active, maximized Epic Destiny

    • Karmic Bond -The active ED’s experience is now bonded through each ED True Reincarnation going forward
    • Grants a Class Past Life Feat (same as Heroic TR)
    • You must have a maximized, non-bonded ED to complete this TR
    • Adds 2 build points up to a 38 point build
    .
    Hmm...I don't see where Epic TRing lands you if you are in an iconic race?

    Are we going to be allowed to combine Iconic TRing Epic TRing all on the same life?

    Cause that would be sweet to get an Iconic and a ED past feat all at the same time?

  14. #574
    The Hatchery SisAmethyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    The main issue with the Epic Advantage is that it's not actually an advantage. A level 20 character that ETR'd and started at level 1 and one that ETR'd and started at level 12 is identical in power. All that extra investment for nothing. XP, while highly coveted, is actually really cheap in the game. It is not a lasting advantage to have more initial XP.

    The suggestions that players are making are basically in 2 schools of thought:
    1) Don't make us give up everything for no return, we only pay for what we get. This limits powercreep.
    2) Reward us for our extended investment (a la my Unbonded to AP suggestion), this is more powercreep, but extends the game for all but the small percentage of players that will hammer out all EDs in a weekend with a megafarm.
    Indeed, especially since the first 8 levels are like what? A cakewalk for players that already have several TR or several ED. If you take your time and try to do all quests from level 1-5 on elite exactly one time you can easily get 1 level per day. After that a lot of players will anyway stone them to 16+ and that is where the grinding start no matter what due to thin content. So this advantage is a soap bubble that provide a lot of players zero advantage. Heck I mean some player manage to TR even in less then 3 days.

    I can understand somehow if epic TR would wipe the ED, but not heroic TR. Than one I still would have a choice to not do it. Even then I find the other provided solutions about only loosing the active ED or a token system for already acquired EDs a far better approach.
    * We have collectable bags, hell even hireling folders, but can I have that 6-pack for my potions please?
    * Having already a past life on the dieng EU servers, I rerolled here and started from scratch as I like the game and the community, so lets see what awaits me here

  15. #575
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    I fail to see why Epic TRing is associated with Iconics here?

    Did I miss something?

    Hmm...



    Hmm...I don't see where Epic TRing lands you if you are in an iconic race?

    Are we going to be allowed to combine Iconic TRing Epic TRing all on the same life?

    Cause that would be sweet to get an Iconic and a ED past feat all at the same time?
    ETR grants the Epic PL and Class PL (just like heroic)...

    Since one of the design goals is to "Introduce Iconics into the TR cycle", I read that as the Iconic PL will be treated the same as a Class PL... (Thus, everyone's about to lose completionist until they do 4 more lives, which are basically another Pally, Rogue, Cleric, and Fighter life... but hey, don't fuss about that, cuz they might Take Away All Destiny XP! My friends in game development call this "a duck"... something glaringly wrong that you know is going to illicit feedback so the questionable thing you want in there slides through.)

  16. #576

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    How does it affect my play style?

    I want to TR my toon into the Iconic Classes.
    I would like more fate points.
    I don't mind reearning my epic destinies if I get more fate points.

    I would like to combine Epic TRing with Iconic TRing.
    I don't care if my TR into Iconics does not yield a past life.

    Perhaps Epic TRing should offer three options?
    Back to 1 as an heroic class with whatever last past life deserves.
    Back to 15 as an iconic with whatever last past life deserves.
    Back to 20 as a +0 Lesser Heart.
    All of which reset the epic destiny of the active destiny only and grant a past life of that destiny.

    I would prefer not to allow multiple Epic Destiny Past lives that way they will be more uber,
    hence you could bind them if you wanted.

    Heroic should be available without loss of ED XP as well.

    After you first Epic Iconic TR, you could simply block a reset of any ED XP by making
    the bound ED active before TRing.

  17. #577
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    Default I like it but...

    This is what the ED system should have been when it was first released. This is a much more elegant system and it will add a lot of replayablity to the game.

    Sadly, it's a bit late to be changing the rules.

    One concern, other than the obvious loss of ED XP, is for people who spent real $ on Keys of Fate to unlock other destinies. Will these be wasted when you EDTR?

    The only solution that I can come up with is to provide characters created before a certain date (today for example) to be given the ability to bind all their capped destinies.

    I'm not sure how to fairly handle the ED PL feats.

  18. #578

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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    My friends in game development call this "a duck"... something glaringly wrong that you know is going to illicit feedback so the questionable thing you want in there slides through.)
    Well the whole thing slide by me, every bit of it...sigh and read it a lot.

  19. #579

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheylostmyID View Post
    One concern, other than the obvious loss of ED XP, is for people who spent real $ on Keys of Fate to unlock other destinies. Will these be wasted when you EDTR?
    That and fate points are the big game breaker.

  20. #580
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    How does this system look in practice?

    Heroic True Reincarnation

    • Heroic TR remains primarily unchanged at level 20 or above
    • Grants a Class Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
    • Adds 2 build points up to a 36 point build
    • Benefits from the Epic Advantage if you earn Epic Destinies before TR (below)
    Looks ok. I would drop the Epic Advantage though but thats not a game breaker so leave it or remove it as you wish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    Epic Destiny True Reincarnation

    • Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)
    • Grants an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat
      • Feat based on active, maximized Epic Destiny

    • Karmic Bond -The active ED’s experience is now bonded through each ED True Reincarnation going forward
    • Grants a Class Past Life Feat (same as Heroic TR)
    • You must have a maximized, non-bonded ED to complete this TR
    • Adds 2 build points up to a 38 point build
    Dont mix Epic TR with Heroic TR. This means that an Epic TR should return you to level 20 - not level 1 or anywhere in the heroic levels - but level 20. This also means that an Epic TR should not give a Class Past Life Feat - leave that to the Heroic TR. Many people either already have the Heroic TR they want or simple dont want to redo the lower levels. Far better to keep the two system seperate so each player may choose to undertake the kind of TR he/she wants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    Epic Advantage
    With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)
    Not having ED xp carry over seems harsh. If and only if points of fate remain in place and unlocked EDs remain unlocked will this work. With that in place I think you have a fine system though.

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