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  1. #541
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    This.

    If we can keep all our fate points, AND they get rid of the ED map (where you have to have 3-4 ranks in an useless destiny to unlock a destiny you do want), then I might be for this.

    This is a chance to fix the ED system... I don't mind losing all the grind I've already done if I can keep the fate points, and my twist slots and can level in any ED I want. Because then I can just relevel the 3-5 EDs I'm interested in (and have fun playing while doing it) instead of wasting time getting magister ranks on my fighter to unlock twists...

    If we have to re-grind the fate points again, wasting time AGAIN in EDs that suck for our character, then I agree the proposed system is terrible.
    I would still resent losing 18 MILLION XP, and the ability to have an ED I had the foresight to level for a future life available when I get to that life, but this would at least be a major improvement. Maybe enough to downgrade many reactions from "@#!$ you guys, I'll find another game" to "you guys suck!"

    EDs are powerful enough that many people recommend not TRing already because the gains are trivial compared to what EDs give. This would amplify that by a million for those that don't just immediately quit the game. For this reason alone I don't recommend removing our ED XP. Or, as one poster suggested (and I like) remove only the bonded (active) destiny XP, and give that destiny a PL bonus. That would actually encourage people to Epic TR.

    But yes, at the very very least they need to preserve fate points and unlocks.

  2. #542

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultramaetche1 View Post
    To further expand on Towrn's idea on page 24 (hopefully I'm interpreting this correctly)



    Make the Epic TR system similar to the current, whereas your heroic levels 1-20 are reset to 1, and ONLY your currently active destiny is reset to 1. Maybe rework the system to recognize that the reset, or bonded, ED's (FotW in Towrn's example) would be the only ones to count towards the "Epic Advantage"

    With this method, people would have the choice between Heroic TR'ing, whilst keeping all their destinies where they currently are, but would not give you an ED past life feat (or whatever its going to be called) that the Epic TR would give.

    Conversely, people who have all their ED's maxed, could Epic TR to gain chosen ED past life feats by resetting that ONE destiny and re-leveling ONLY that one. Keeping majority of their fate points, while gaining the ED past life benefit. Thus, if you would like to gain the FULL "Epic Advantage" you would TR the 11 times, or whatnot, but each time you only have to re-level the single destiny that you Epic TR'd from. Each time you Epic TR, the destiny would become bonded and THEN count towards the "Epic Advantage"

    Example of what I'm trying to explain:

    18/2/8 Barbarian|Fighter|Epic in Dreadnought with all destinies capped decides to Epic TR.
    They will start back at lv 1 like any TR, however ALL ED's remain capped EXCEPT for Dreadnought, due to it being the ED he Epic TR'd from.
    The person would gain benefits from "Epic Advantage" ONLY for the Dreadnought ED due to it now being bound, and when they level back to 20, they simply re-level the Dreadnought ED as if the ED itself underwent a TR.
    Now say they hit 28 again with their toon, this time in Fury of the Wild.
    They once again Epic TR, this time resetting FotW while everything else remains untouched, however this second time around they gain "Epic Advantage" from both Dreadnought AND Fury of the Wild. Repeating as needed/wanted until ALL ED's are capped and bound.
    I don't like it, because you are binding two different things together.
    Heroic TRing and Epic Destinies.

    Suppose this barbarian already had 3 barbarian past lives,
    they would be upset to not get a fourth.

  3. #543
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    Another thing that makes the Epic Advantage really weird is that MotU was, essentially, a half-baked scheme to get us to pay for a cap increase. "We'll give them the levels for free, but make them pay for the enhancements!" So, Destinies are the epic Enhancement system. Why does this relate to an advantage for Heroic Levels?

    Everyone hates your Points in Tree restriction, if not the entire system. How about making the Epic Advantage be that unbonded XP gets added as extra AP to spend? Each Capped, unbonded destiny adds 1 AP (stacking, persistent) AP to the heroic life. After 11 Epic TRs, grinding out max destinies each time; the Epic completionist would have an additional 55 AP to spend in your horrid Points in Tree System!



    Also, what new Enhancement trees will be added in Update 20? Will Skill augments see the light of day? What new Cannith Crafting recipes? You guys always come up with grand sweeping changes that you can not finish by deadline with the dismissal that "you'll finish them later" and never go back and finish them.

  4. #544

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    Quote Originally Posted by Towrn View Post
    That's about what I meant....Unless I am not seeing something in this idea that could present a problem it seems that would be a good base for the idea of Epic TRs.
    I just listed it.

    Many fighters and wizards are currently on their fourth life.
    If you want this to be an available option among several then sure.
    But if Epic TRing drops you to level 20, you could simply drop again to level 1 with a normal TR.

  5. #545
    Community Member Zzevel's Avatar
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    I agree with pretty much EVERYONE who cares enough about the game to visit the forums.. You have to be drunk with greed to think this will be accepted by the core base of the game. People put their time and money into this, a GAME to have fun, to become powerful... you flush their time and effort down the crapper to gain a few purchases of Epic TR wood? You think anyone will still be around to buy them?

    I don't usually want something for FREE, but you are changing EVERYTHING as we know in TR and in doing so you are REALLY making some people unhappy...

    If you do move down this ugly path at least honor the players for the time they spent. Give them a free ED TR binding for each destiny they already have filled.. that way they lose nothing and you can start your new process going forward with a happy player base (that is still around) that will drudginlly BUY that Epic TR Wood you want to sell when they get to that point...

  6. #546
    Community Member SensaiRyu's Avatar
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    Seems intriguing. I'd like to see what the actual level curve would be (as well as examples of ED PL Feats). The main thing keeping me from multiple TRs is the exp curve.

    I'd probably grind out a few EDs I'd like to have PL feats for, bind them via TR, and complete the rest once I'm happy with my toon.
    My 3rd Life Monk, 2nd Life Monk builds. My pre-MoTU Light Monk build.
    Other Monks: Martens, TeenyTiny, Metaru, Rockan, Horcrux.
    My old Intimitank Build. 3rd life and haven't updated.

  7. #547
    Community Member magn0liafan's Avatar
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    Default My Wall of Text: A Newcomer's Perspective.

    Here's the thing.

    My highest level character is a level 17 bladeforged.
    My most progressed character is a level 11 Artificer (which has only gained four levels, since it started with Veteran Status). So yeah, as far as DDO goes, I'm a n00b, and I'll admit it.

    However. I came here from WoW, after playing there for years. In my opinion, the changes they were making at end game didn't seem worth it, providing relatively small benefits for an extreme amount of work.

    With that said, I am aware of the Epic Destiny Grind. I am aware that it takes 1.98 million xp to cap an epic destiny. I am also aware that there are people who, before this was released for the sake of having the destines necessary to compliment whatever class into which they would TR, be it for chasing after the completionist feat, because a certain class/build got nerfed to the point where it was no longer playable, or even for just a change of pace.

    Currently, there are 11 epic destines available. 11*1,980,000 = 27.78 million xp.

    From what I understand, the way True Reincarnation currently affects Epic Destinies, progress is halted, and can be picked back up once the character hits level 20 once again. Under the new "Epic" Reincarnation system, however, you bond one destiny, and recieve one Heroic Rank per level of Epic Destniny that you have earned.

    At first, the new system sounds decent. You're on your final rank of level 11. However, assuming that this is at least your third life (based upon the max ED's for completionist theory), you would need a total of 1.1283 million xp to reach this point, based upon current figures. This is a payoff of approximately 4.06% of the initial investment. Plus they'll need to farm at least another 3.96 million epic xp along the way to level cap. At this point, the return percentages seem to look better. Except now, you're only getting 15 ranks, which is a total of 54.7 thousand xp, for a return of 1.38%.

    And what happens when you don't have a second destiny to farm for the purposes of remaining unbonded? The character cannot epic reincarnate at this point, and can never truely complete the "epic completionist" feat that has been proposed.

    This is further compounded by the statement that this epic XP will be wiped with a normal, level 20 reincarnation, with no chance to bond those destinies.

    I suppose to min/max the effect of the new system, individuals wanting to go for completionist that have already maxed their Epic Destines would be to:

    1.)Get to Level 28.

    2.)Epic Reincarnate, bond 1 destiny, and begin the next chracter at the final rank of level 11.

    3.)Level to 20.

    4.)True Reincarnate.

    5.)Repeat steps 3 and 4 until all desired past life feats for non-iconic classes are acquired.

    6.)Level the final character for non-iconic past lives up to 28.

    7.)Iconic Reincarnate into the Iconic Classes, leveling them to level 28. Epic Reincarnate after the final Iconic class hits 28.

    8.)Begin working towards the (unachievable) Epic Completionist feat.

    Such a wonderful system, don't you all agree?

    My point? Even to a self-admitted n00b, this looks like a slap in the face to those who have worked their butts off for this. Even if someone is just starting the whole epic destniny grind, a return of 1.38% (which EVENTUALLY grows to 4.06%) is a steaming pile of feces.

    Listen to your customers who are providing you with alternatives. While I doubt that everyone will abandon ship for this, I do believe that the game could reach a point to where it will be no longer profitable for you to maintain it.

    TL;DR: A self-professed n00b examines the "epic" advantage, and points out exactly how it is flawed, using a mathematical basis.

    P.S. : Rusted Blades Computations

    Assumptions:
    2 min/run
    20k XP/run
    1.98 Million xp per epic destiny
    11 epic Destines

    11 * 1,980,000 / 20,000 * 2
    11 * 1,980,000 / 10,000
    11 * 1,980 / 10
    11 * 198
    2,178 minutes
    2,160 minutes + 18 minutes

    36 hours, 18 minutes
    (Of the same content. Spiffy.)

    However, unboosted XP per run, on elite, without completing optional objectives is 14,327 XP. This, of course, adds more time to the equation.

    50 Hours, 40 Minutes, 24.79 Seconds

    Quote Originally Posted by Skavenaps View Post
    To max the 11 ED you just need to spend 1 weekend on rusted blades. Yeah.. big lose. I want my 2 days back ¬¬'
    Seems like more than a weekend to me. But I'm sure this guy would love to do it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fixil View Post
    I like the sound of these plans and goals, keep up the good work.

    As a side note to all the winjers - keep your bad news and whining to yourself, if you don't have any specific feedback contributions to submit that earnestly
    seeks to give a mature opinion on these changes then please refrain from posting. Your constantly negative and whimisal comments are supressive.
    Yeah, yeah, I know. Flies, Honey, Vinegar, blah, blah, blah. But why would I want flies?
    Last edited by magn0liafan; 06-13-2013 at 04:25 PM.
    "F*** Jay and Silent Bob, f*** them up their stupid a**es."
    "Who the f*** said that s***?"
    "A guy who calls himself 'Magnolia Fan'."

  8. #548
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    Quote Originally Posted by magn0liafan View Post
    Yeah, yeah, I know. Flies, Honey, Vinegar, blah, blah, blah. But why would I want flies?
    Actually you can attract more flies with vinegar than honey (mostly fruit flies, but those are flies)

  9. #549
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    Unhappy We are like a dog chasing it's tail. . .

    I understand the strong feelings at having to redo all the work of grinding EDs but I find Turbine is merely responding to three community requests:

    I. Quality of Life fixes
    II. Epification of Adventure Packs
    III. Slowing down an increase to the level cap.

    People are responding to these changes as if it wasn't something we were asking for! You can voice your opinion but it is disingenious to act like this is not something that the community has been requesting.

    It is like a dog chasing it's tail, so the owner thinks that it wants to play fetch but when the dog catches a car EVERYONE has something to say, and very little is positive.

    Quality of Life fixers: The dog states they aren't interested in cars, just wanted to itch fleas.

    Epification of Packers: The dog states they were just bored, and would rather chase a ball.

    No-Increase to Cappers: The dog states they didn't want to play fetch at all, they were mad at the dog chasing them. They just couldn't catch him!

    Now, I don't intend to belittle the arguments that removing that much ED experience without giving the players something back is probably detrimental to the game. Every dog needs to be thrown a bone sometimes!

    I am just trying to show people how silly it is to claim that Turbine wasn't listening or think that the sky is suddenly falling because we get a brief glimpse into all the things Turbine could do while we are pulling the bumper off the car and chewing the tires.

    Turbine is trying to keep everyone satisfied and it's a difficult job. In DDO, TR is our Pavlovian response. The game is based upon TR'ing, so when they have multiple groups to satisfy, you will have to forgive them for ringing the bell and crossing their fingers that we will be satisfied with the bone, long enough to provide us with another steak.

    Case in point, this provides players plenty of things to grind and plenty of lead time for Turbine so they can work on BIG projects without worrying that people have blown through the content and they have to rush something out before it is ready to keep people busy.
    Last edited by Panserbjorne; 06-13-2013 at 04:38 PM.

  10. #550
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    The main issue with the Epic Advantage is that it's not actually an advantage. A level 20 character that ETR'd and started at level 1 and one that ETR'd and started at level 12 is identical in power. All that extra investment for nothing. XP, while highly coveted, is actually really cheap in the game. It is not a lasting advantage to have more initial XP.

    The suggestions that players are making are basically in 2 schools of thought:
    1) Don't make us give up everything for no return, we only pay for what we get. This limits powercreep.
    2) Reward us for our extended investment (a la my Unbonded to AP suggestion), this is more powercreep, but extends the game for all but the small percentage of players that will hammer out all EDs in a weekend with a megafarm.
    Last edited by Systern; 06-13-2013 at 04:37 PM.

  11. #551
    Community Member LightBear's Avatar
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    Yeah, that loss of ED xp is not good at all. I did not spend all that time (21 million xp O.o ) to have it taken away. It would be nice if you folks if we could auto bind them all.

    One, two! One, two! and through and through. The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
    He left it dead, and with its head. He went galumphing back.

  12. #552
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cableman View Post
    I call BS, Online right now (Sarlona), there are over 50 and it's not even prime time. Sarlona isn't even the heaviest populated server.
    Ohhh~ I love stuff like this!

    Because you see no problem, there is none. Wow, the easiest logic to have ever. Turbines logic too. Even if we point out an issue, if they can't see it, it must not be there. See, hear and speak no evil, no evil to deal with right?

    Wrong though, sorry.

    MMO stands for MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER.

    It shouldn't feel like a "small town" where everyone knows everyones name. I should have so many people to sift through for a group it's crazy. Granted I know we will never be as big as others, but we should never at least SHRINK to less than what we already have so little of.

    If you log on and have groups and players, great, I am happy for you. Not every server can keep taking hits from Turbines choices and keep populated. But again, I guess if you don't see it, it isn't happening.

    And hey, I'm sure you are on 24/7 and KNOW ALL ABOUT when people are on, because you KNOW everyone on your server right? Cause that should be at all feasible. But yknow what? Not everyone lives in fantasy land. ((Our characters do, but that isn't the point))

    So yeah, whats the point of getting different views if you are just gonna pretend there isn't a problem? I mean cmon, clearly there is. Let's not all play Matrix ignorant here.

    If I log on and don't see players, try to start my own LFM and it sits with no hits for an hour ((take note, the LFM sits, not me, Ill go solo quests or slay in wilds))...I'm gonna log off. I solo but why should I solo if I feel like changes in the future will upend all my hard work?

    Again, if you can find a group I am happy for you. But that is not the case for everyone.

    Do you still not see how much of an issue all of this is?

    It isn't even an issue of effecting and ticking off "part of your player base"

    I see two kinds of people in here, people that HATE your idea and are telling you so, and others who are ANNOYED but OPTIMISTIC you will change it up.

    I've sifted through every page following this along. I see virtually zero support for your plans as they are. And my view is, it not only hurting peoples plans, but server population. Maybe not yours, but all I know is if I log onto my game and there's nothing at ANY POINT in the day, it is a bad thing.

    Prime play time should not be the ONLY time you have LFM's period.

  13. #553
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by magn0liafan View Post

    TL;DR: A self-professed n00b examines the "epic" advantage, and points out exactly how it is flawed, using a mathematical basis.
    I think you've graduated beyond noob, you may not know all the quests but you certainly seem to understand game mechanics.

  14. #554

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citzen_Gkar View Post
    Actually you can attract more flies with vinegar than honey (mostly fruit flies, but those are flies)
    lol

  15. #555
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    Exclamation What are you all moaning for?

    From what I can see, the majority of you posting in this thread want the best of everything for the least work put in. I agree there needs to be a few changes to these proposals, but did you really think epic TR'ing was going to be easy???

    Did you really think they were going to give you all these benefits for doing something very similar to what was in place for Heroic TR'ing?

    I remember when TR'ing was first implemented on the EU servers. We had no shop to buy a true heart of wood, stones were bound to character, and the only viable quest to do at epic to get your 20 tokens was wiz king that took around 1 hour 40 mins to complete and you could only do it once per day.

    If you came across anybody in game that was a legend build you knew they had worked on it for several months rather than several weeks.

    Go and play another game if receiving a challenge is too much for you.
    I am a refugee of Devourer, abandoned by Coadmasters and washed up on the shores of the new world Thelanis under the rule of the Turbine empire. The locals are primative, the monsters are tough, and to survive in this savage land i must live by one philosophy... trust no one.

  16. #556
    Community Member Sokól's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SensaiRyu View Post
    Seems intriguing. I'd like to see what the actual level curve would be (as well as examples of ED PL Feats). The main thing keeping me from multiple TRs is the exp curve.

    I'd probably grind out a few EDs I'd like to have PL feats for, bind them via TR, and complete the rest once I'm happy with my toon.
    This just might be a way to make alts more powerful but the main who has all ED´s capped, the only way they can make this system work for main toons is that they keep their fate points.
    Argonnessen: Hilmir - Purkilius - Jinu - Vignir @ Blood Assassin´s

  17. #557
    Community Member magn0liafan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citzen_Gkar View Post
    Actually you can attract more flies with vinegar than honey (mostly fruit flies, but those are flies)
    AI-YAH! This is Uncle's antique shop, not a science fair!
    "F*** Jay and Silent Bob, f*** them up their stupid a**es."
    "Who the f*** said that s***?"
    "A guy who calls himself 'Magnolia Fan'."

  18. #558
    Community Member Towrn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    I just listed it.

    Many fighters and wizards are currently on their fourth life.
    If you want this to be an available option among several then sure.
    But if Epic TRing drops you to level 20, you could simply drop again to level 1 with a normal TR.
    I don't quite understand the part that I've bolded.

    I personally have 3 past lives in Barb, Arti, Monk, Druid and Sorc, 2 past lives on most of the rest. If Epic TRing is for Epic Destinies, it doesn't sound like it matters what class you are, just what destiny you are Epic Tring.

    As someone else has said, this is a choice, not a requisite. You don't HAVE to do it. There is no way Turbine is going to be able to do Epic TRing without ANYONE finding a problem with something. So far the idea that I and several others have been laying out seems to be the best way to have everyone be able to benefit from this without wasting massive amount of time.

    Will some time from some people, myself included, be wasted? Yes. But I think most in the same boat as me wouldn't mind it so much if they tried to minimize the amount of wasted time that we would lose.
    Knorgh (Pally/monk) Currently on life number 32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Opensezame View Post
    From what I can see, the majority of you posting in this thread want the best of everything for the least work put in. I agree there needs to be a few changes to these proposals, but did you really think epic TR'ing was going to be easy???

    Did you really think they were going to give you all these benefits for doing something very similar to what was in place for Heroic TR'ing?

    I remember when TR'ing was first implemented on the EU servers. We had no shop to buy a true heart of wood, stones were bound to character, and the only viable quest to do at epic to get your 20 tokens was wiz king that took around 1 hour 40 mins to complete and you could only do it once per day.

    If you came across anybody in game that was a legend build you knew they had worked on it for several months rather than several weeks.

    Go and play another game if receiving a challenge is too much for you.
    Bah, sorry... with the inability to edit posts at the moment... I meant tokens were btc, not stones!
    I am a refugee of Devourer, abandoned by Coadmasters and washed up on the shores of the new world Thelanis under the rule of the Turbine empire. The locals are primative, the monsters are tough, and to survive in this savage land i must live by one philosophy... trust no one.

  20. #560
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by magn0liafan View Post
    Here's the thing...
    i aint smhart when it comes to numbers like that, but its no wonder i actually feel like im working when i ED farm and not playing to have fun. the proposed change would make me want to just lose interest and eventually quit. my average play time dropped from 5-6 hours daily to 2 hours when i started ED farming.

    your math is probably best case scenario for those group zerg runs, but for me its worse. it takes me 7 minutes because i solo farm, no haste and my barb don't got DDoor, except for when she was in Shadowdancer. i didn't want to give that up when i switched destiny. i can complete Rusted Blades in 4 minutes, but it takes 3 minutes to run back to the quest giver and back to the quest. it makes having the new recall so much better now.

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