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  1. #461
    Community Member Permian's Avatar
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    Dec 2009

    Default Bad Glin, bad! Go to your room and think about this until you can be reasonable!

    How does this fit (or change) your playstyle? Read on for details, then let us know!

    A few goals for Epic Destiny TR:

    Extend Reincarnation system to allow for 38-point builds **GREAT**

    Include Epic Destinies in the TR cycle (with Epic Destiny Past Life Feats) **Absolutely not, they're not included now and shouldn't be anyway, that just makes no sense at all and provides very little incentive or logic as to why anyone would ever bother in the first place to TR in the first place. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!**

    Reward you for additional investment in Epic Destinies (with starting ranks after TR) **Meh. Again, integrating the Epic destiny system into heroic and epic XP is enormously wrong. Do you people go around punching baby kobolds in your spare time just for kicks?**

    Adjust the XP curve in Epic levels for multi-life TR to avoid the dramatic escalating grind **Yes, the XP curve needs a little adjustment already and heaven forbid what it would look like down the road if the level cap continues. That is, unless your planning on doubling or tripling the number of staff pumping out high level content. Not likely.**

    Include Iconics in the TR cycle (with Iconic Past Life Feats) **Yes, I couldn't agree more with this and thought this was a missive when they were introduced.**

    Allow you to TR into and out of Iconics (if you own Iconics) **Ummm, sure I guess. This would open some alternate routes for builds.**

    How does this system look in practice?

    **Awful, horrible, morally wrong, akin to stealing time and money and don’t give me that “you signed the agreements” nonsense. I honestly believe that a high level bean counter solely came up with this system with only money in mind and nothing else at all. There is no way that a dev or any number of devs came up with this trainwreck. As far as I know they all play the game too and no one who plays this game would even dream of implementing this system….unless they were creating ideas based purely on making money and totally shafting their community.
    I deleted all of the example info because it has FAIL written all over it and smacks of "Eff you customers! Gimme yer stinkin' money and shut up!!" I can't say thank you enough for warning us of this impending doom and now I know why one of my guild mates disappeared as he's probably sucking his thumb and crying for mommy in a corner of his house after reading this. I have a lot of toons, one of which is a completionist. He has 3 accounts and over a dozen completionist toons all with cap’ d destinies. It's a huge sense of accomplishment to finish a completionist much less dozens of them. The time and money investment is enough to make some folks hurl at the thought.

    You sold us this as an option and now you want to completely change the rules, which you can, but for the love of Jesus Christopher Allen Christ of DDO please listen to the rants on this one and don't shaft the community like this. I believe 100% that you can implement a working TR system but it can't be one that includes resetting all destiny XP. Someone else already said it in another post; they're already separate so why combine them and complicate things and shaft a whole lot of people. We're all addicts of this game in the casual and power gamer sense but this whole idea of resetting all destiny XP is….I’ve ranted enough already; don’t even have the energy to continue.**

    Iconic True Reincarnation

    That’s right; Iconics will have their own form of True Reincarnation, earning their own unique set of past-life feats. You will also be able to TR from any character into an Iconic, which begins at level 15, like normal. Epic Advantage also works on both ends, as well, transferring ED XP earned in your Iconic life, and, if you TR into an Iconic, adding XP on top of your level 15 starting XP.Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy) **Yay that's nice.**

    Grants an Iconic Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x **OK**

    Adds 2 build points up a 36 point build **OK**

    Earns ranks from Epic Advantage **OK**

    Reincarnation cooldown timer reduced to 3 days. **What took so long? We needed that ages ago.**

    Reincarnation XP curves smoothed to ease penalties for multiple lives. **Already overdue.**

    Lesser Reincarnation will allow a Heroic character to reincarnate as a Champion. Greater Reincarnation will no longer be sold, in favor of an improved Lesser Reincarnation. **OK. I honestly don't know anyone that has ever greater reincarnated.**

    Iconic characters will be able to Lesser Reincarnate **Makes sense.**

    We are eager to begin production on this system and appreciate the many players that are eager to see us fulfill the end game potential that the TR system presents. With these changes we are also keeping a long-term view for TR, such as how to expand the Epic Destiny system and continue to support level cap growth in the future....

    **Please throttle back the "eager" until all of you really think about this new system and what it means well into the future of DDO. I'm sure I'll be playing for a long time but I've already lost a huge amount of interest in playing as much as I used to due to the re-gearing and exploring new content. It turns in to a more work-like feeling to do all of that and I don't want to feel like that when I'm gettin' my fix, ya know?

    I appreciate the opportunity to respond and can't thank you enough for allowing the community to at least have a voice. This is life altering change for some folks here and change doesn't sit well with everyone no matter how good or bad. I'm more of a casual gamer at this point as stated earlier, along with the reason, but I can truly understand the outcries of some folks. Anyone who feels that these folks are wrong for voicing their opinion, should have their own responses deleted and feel what it feels like to not have a voice imo.**
    Abamf|Skwat|Baucas Thelanis - Renowned

  2. #462
    Community Manager
    Cordovan's Avatar
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    Nov 2010
    Boston Area, MA


    Please folks, feel free to express your opinions, but fighting each other and flinging insults and name-calling is not necessary.
    Have fun, and don't forget to gather for buffs!
    Submit DDO Bugs through:
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  3. #463


    I would rather have the devs tells us what they might think to do early, then after lots of work has been done.
    Thank you, provided you listen and adjust your plans.

  4. #464
    Community Member Grosbeak07's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007


    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    I would rather have the devs tells us what they might think to do early, then after lots of work has been done.
    Thank you, provided you listen and adjust your plans.
    Its all we can ask for.
    Magical Rings are well... magical. - Gandalf

  5. #465


    Quote Originally Posted by toaftoaf View Post
    stop thinkig of our game while youget high, Dont mix drugs and work

    To toke, or not to toke: that is the question:
    Whether 'tis freakier in the mind to suffer
    The slings and arrows of outrageous reality,
    Or to take arms against a sea of bubbles,
    And by inhaling end them? To smoke: to sleep;
    No! More; and by a sleep to say we waste
    The dank and the thousand natural shocks
    That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consumption
    Devoutly to be wish'd. To smoke, to sleep;
    To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the nug;
    For in that sleep of dank what dreams may come
    When we have finished off this burning bowl,
    Must give us pause: there's the rub
    That makes calamity of so sticky bud;
    For who would bear the burns and runners of joints,
    The roller's wrong, the baked man's contumely,
    The pangs of despised seeds, the law's scorn,
    The insolence of fish lipping and the spurns
    That patient merit of the borgarting breaks,
    When he himself might his pipe make
    With a TP roll? who would fardels bear,
    To grunt and sweat under the passing shake,
    But that the dread of something after kiff,
    The undiscover'd resin from whose stem
    No traveller returns, puzzles the will
    And makes us rather bear those hits we have
    Than puff others that we know not of?
    Thus scrapping does make cowards of us all;
    And thus the native hue of ebony
    Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of lighter,
    And enterprises of great pith and moment
    With this regard their exhales turn awry,
    And lose the name of ganja. - Soft you now!
    The fair Mary Jane! Weed, in thy orisons
    Be all my spliffs remember'd.
    The newest computer can merely compound, at speed, the oldest problem in the relations between human beings, and in the end the communicator will be confronted with the old problem, of what to say and how to say it. - Edward R. Murrow (1964)

  6. #466
    Community Manager
    Cordovan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Boston Area, MA


    Just to address people's passionate comments and opinions here: Keep in mind that this information is being presented to you far in advance of its implementation, and there's plenty of room to re-work the proposal in a variety of ways.
    Have fun, and don't forget to gather for buffs!
    Submit DDO Bugs through:
    Follow DDO on: Facebook Twitter Google+ Pinterest
    Join us on Twitch!

  7. #467
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012


    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Please folks, feel free to express your opinions, but fighting each other and flinging insults and name-calling is not necessary.
    After such a disgusting game design decision you should be happy that flinging and calling is all you get.
    The whole last 6 months i played and prepared my chars are for nothing, wasted time.
    And hell i wasnt even with all my chars in the ED i wanted nor had i unlocked enough points for the twists.
    ED grind is made horrible (oh such fun with my Fighter in Magister.. or my Wiz in Dreadnougt...) and you just spit in our face with this design.

    In my eyes you Devs/Designers lost all credit, this is so far removed from your playerbase you could sit on Alpha Centauri...
    Taenebrae, Daemonsoul, Daemoneyes and Daemonheart of Argonessen
    Glitzakram - Trade Thread

  8. #468
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2010


    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    All the 'killing the game' and 'I'll quit for real' noise aside, I have a few questions regarding how the proposed TR changes appear to work.

    HEROIC TRing (HTR):

    1-Assuming I understood what was written in the OP (always a long shot), it sounds like if I don't care about epic EDs and I TR my character immediately upon L20, then I won't even notice a change to HTRing?

    2- If I max one epic destiny and 'lock in' before TRing, it sounds like I get to keep that ED every time I HTR? So like now, but I only get to keep one ED instead of however many I've unlocked.

    EPIC TRing (ETR):

    1- Theoretically, if I wanted a 38 point build, can't I just HTR three times, then ETR once? That only requires me to max two ED trees for my ETR right? Wouldn't I just do that before maxing out the rest of my EDs? That way I would only have to repeat one ED (presumably a fun one that I enjoy) one time and still get a 38 point build?
    Regarding HTR 1:

    Yes, if you don't have any advancement in EDs at all or if you don't care about EDs at all, then you won't notice any change to HTR. However, if you have even 1 XP invested in Epic Destinies, it will be wiped when you TR, no matter what type of TR that you decide to do.

    Regarding HTR 2:

    It does not appear that you can bond with any ED unless you do an Epic TR. If you notice in Glin's post, it states that the bonding process is is under the Epic TR section called Karmaic Bond. It is not part of the HTR section. Epic Advantage (starting at a certain rank depending on your ED progress) will happen for HTRs, but bonding to EDs appears to be strictly for Epic TRs.

    Regarding Epic TR 1:

    What you are describing would be all fine and good if it was proposed a year ago when Epic Desinties were originally released or shortly after their release. But it's been a year of people grinding out EDs because we were told way back when EDs were added that the ED XP progress would not wipe when we TR. In fact, there were several patches to prevent ED XP wiping and restoration for players that did get it wiped. So the rules of the game will have been changed a year later (or if you really believe these changes won't happen until next year, then a year and a half later to two years), which doesn't sit well at all for many players that any sort of advanced ED progress in the game.

    As far as having two maxed EDs to Epic TR, that's what Glin said... However, Dev Piloto stated a few hours later that only one maxed ED is needed.

  9. #469
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013


    Turbine, please stop hiring people to work on this game that don't actually like this game and instead want to turn it into something else. Thanks much.

    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    No more dumbing down this game so everyone can feel special.
    Stop using words and phrases that you don't understand. It makes you look ignorant.
    Quote Originally Posted by HotMaarl View Post
    Enough spam.
    And the same for you also. Words mean things. Use them correctly please. Thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Playing DDO with Turbine is like playing DnD with a new DM every six months. I may not like how the new DM rules on certain things, but I adapt and keep playing.
    Except that is really stupid, and I question the intelligence of someone who does that (i.e., you). If the new DM is ****, it is stupid to keep playing with him. As they say, no gaming is better than bad gaming.

    The proposed changes are bad. If you disagree, that just means your opinion is worthless. The proposed changes remove incentive to run characters after 20. I'm not going to TR a character if I'm going to lose all of that extra time invested in epic XP. At the same time, I'm not going to cap any characters to 28 because I have no faith in your ability to deliver engaging, fun epic content (based on Epic content you have delivered thus far, which, frankly, sucks).

    So what's going to happen is that my Epic characters are going to sit around being unplayed, while I play my Heroic characters. And as I level each of those (very few at this point) to 20, they will end up being unplayed also, because why keep playing them in poor content if I'm just going to get screwed in the end? I'm not going to buy new character slots because at this point, you clearly don't deserve my money, so eventually I wont' have any characters left to play.

    At that point, I'll find a different game to play or other hobby in which to engage.

    If you are dead set on wiping Epic XP for Heroic TRs, the only way you can do that without eventually losing me as a player is as follows:

    1. I keep my Fate Points.
    2. You add many more twist slots.
    3. Past life feats based on Epic Destinies are equal in power to a Level 0 Epic Destiny ability.
    4. Every 2 Epic Destiny levels I earned translates into a +1 Heroic level on my TR.
    5. Every Epic Destiny I max out earns me a Stone of Experience for the TR character.
    6. You learn how to properly apply XP to a quest.

    But even that would not change the fact that this is a terrible, backwards-thinking idea that should be scrapped right here and right now.

  10. #470
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    SW United States


    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    and there's plenty of room to re-work the proposal in a variety of ways.
    Past and present experiences have given us little to no confidence that you (Turbine) listen and adjust accordingly based upon our feedback.

  11. #471
    Community Member bbcjoke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010


    I have two things to comment on this, devs.

    1) Please refrain from making heroic TR wipe out ED xp. A lot of people enjoy heroic TR and only use the epic levels to gather twelve tokens. Taking out their pre-stored epic destinies levels would only lessen their fun. Also, it would be unfair for those who still haven't done all the heroic TR they want to change the rules in the middle of the game.

    2) Please let us keep our twist of fate points over our Epic TRs. I believe losing them is the major factor of frustation people are having. We don't really like losing our tomes, you know.

  12. #472

    Default Hmmm, ok, wait, what

    I tried to read though most of this, but there is ALOT of information in here.
    I like the idea of more Past Life Feats, hopefully these are truly worth the sacrifice. Plus, the Iconic TRing sound great, I don';t own Warforged but I have Bladeforged.
    Epic Advantage-Converts Epic Levels to Heroic Ranks, thus a maxed out non-karmic bond Epic would give 10 (Destinies) X 5 Level so 50 ranks making your character a level 8. So 15,000,000 XP gives you 523,700 xp...unless I am reading that wrong. That seems WAY to rough. I like the idea of more Past Life Feats, but I don't want to lose every bit of the EDs I have worked on. Starting from Exalted Angel and going to Shiradi (pretty much maxing along the way) takes sometime when you are a casual gamer. I guess I will Karmic Bond GMoF and make Monk builds so I can TR. Also, with the ED wipe what happens to Twist Points?

  13. #473
    2016 DDO Players Council UurlockYgmeov's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Somewhere ...


    Well, after grinding renown just to tread water, spending countless amount of time helping to administer a guild because of the lack of guild management tools (and the ones we have are stone-age tools)


    after having to relog into the website for the countless time....

    I have only time and energy for one comment (before the website logs me out again)

    ED TR should be optional - so if you don't want to loose all those destinies - you have the choice to not gain the benefits of the ED TR, but also don't loose the ED.

    SMOOTH XP curve from 1-20 and then from 21-whatever (Heck yeah)

    oh - so that was two comments, hope when I press submit I don't get the log in screen.

  14. #474
    Community Member Aussir's Avatar
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    Jul 2010


    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Just to address people's passionate comments and opinions here: Keep in mind that this information is being presented to you far in advance of its implementation, and there's plenty of room to re-work the proposal in a variety of ways.
    Like the way they re-worked the enhancement pass and implemented all the stupid ideas we said were bad?


    Pull the other one...
    DDO-Europe 2006/2010 - Aureon/Keeper

    I'm blunt as a rock and can seem aggressive because of it. Be aware of that when reading my posts.

  15. #475
    The Hatchery CaptainSpacePony's Avatar
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    Dec 2009
    North American East Coast Interwebs


    Quote Originally Posted by FalseFlag View Post
    The proposed changes are bad. If you disagree, that just means your opinion is worthless.
    While I sympathize with your discontent, IMWO, the solutions you propose are too much. For example, I have more ED levels than there are heroic levels. Who would that work?
    Someone got it wrong. Everyone expected the Spanish Inquisition because they were required to give 30 days notice, by law.
    I can be found on Orien. My more active toons are Cilon, Solstone in Your Pack, and sometimes Acroyer.

  16. #476
    Community Member Towrn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Who can keep track of all the flights and hotels?!?!?!?!?!


    I just do not have the time to read every single post in this thread, but I have read many and all of the dev posts.

    I am a TRaholic. I plan on doing epic Trs, but the ways in which it sounds like you plan on implementing it (for now) sound a little counterproductive.

    In one post you said that you plan on reworking the exp curve(unless I read horribly wrong) and later in the same post you said that Epic TRing would wipe out all ED exp except the ED that you bonded(again, unless I am way off base)

    The idea that seems to make the most sense to me, so far, is this:

    Player X is lvl 28 and has all ED's fully maxed out.
    Player X Epic Trs with Fury of the Wild ED active.
    Player X becomes lvl 1 (not 100% I am reading the ED ranks transferring to Heroic ranks correctly)
    Player X has Fury of the Wild exp reset to 0 and the other 10 ED's exp remain unchanged.
    Player X now benefits from the Fury of the Wild Epic Past Life but has to re-level the Fury of the Wild ED after re-leveling to 20.

    In addition, since Player X is not losing all exp in all EDs, Player X only loses the 1-2 Fate points from losing the 5 levels of Fury of the Wild.

    This seems fair. There is still a lot of exp that will be needed to be gained so it is not a day or two of grinding to finish, but it will also not waste all of the time players spent grinding thier EDs up.

    Just my 2 cents.
    Last edited by Towrn; 06-13-2013 at 01:33 PM.
    Knorgh (triple triple completionist) Currently 12 Wizard/6 Ranger/2 Monk

  17. #477
    Founder Osharan_Tregarth's Avatar
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    Jan 2006
    fresno, ca


    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post

    We are also making balance changes to compensate for the fact that the system goes into higher levels, and we expect that parts of the design summary will seem less harsh once these details are better understood. We’ll be reading discussion in this thread and will continue to post here with more details as we go (such as details regarding Fate Points, Completionist, and the exact effects of turning in your Epic Destiny xp on your new life).
    I think the main sticking point here is for the people that went ahead and (using the current system as designed) maxed out all of their epic destinies.

    We (I'll include myself in this group) did this, by some horrendously tedious xp grinding, knowing that once we put the time and effort into doing it, we'd never have to do it again. 16.5 million xp, at a minimum. It sucked.

    We put up with lousy destinies for the character we were playing (My sorc really gets nothing out of shadowdancer. Or dreadnought. Or a large variety of other epic destinies), so that we could get them done, and with the system in place, we'd never have to go back to them.

    I understand that there were some unsanctioned "shortcuts" that people were using to sidestep the "having to progress through an off destiny to earn fate points", but if you put in a system where you are going to arbitrarily wipe out all current destiny progress except for the one "bonded" destiny, you are going to alienate those people. A lot. And by "those people", I mean me. And a fair chunk of the people I run with. I can't claim to speak for "everyone", and I won't try to.

    Whatever you come up with at this point, needs to take into account the existing players that have already put weeks and months into getting their characters done.

    For new characters going forward, no problem. I can see that the system will be much easier and less grindy.

    I'd suggest some type of token system when the update hits, that will serve as a one time unlock for each of the destinies that have already been done. So someone with 11 destinies at level five, would have 11 tokens that they could use after reincarnating, to preserve the time and effort that has already been done. Make em a min level 20, and do it for existing characters a week or two before the update hits. Or a month or two. But something.
    Last edited by Osharan_Tregarth; 06-13-2013 at 01:45 PM.
    Osharan, Esharan, Osharina, Usharina, etc... I'm the 'sharans. Epoxy. Notverysexy.
    I've taken the craft disturbing mental image feat... You have been warned!
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  18. #478
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010


    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Just to address people's passionate comments and opinions here: Keep in mind that this information is being presented to you far in advance of its implementation, and there's plenty of room to re-work the proposal in a variety of ways.
    If this is true (and it appears it probably is), then your producers should not come on here and say "Hey, look! We're planning to hose you by year's end!" - because that is exactly what Glin did. S/He said this was going to be released later this year, which means this has been in the works and is not "far in advance of its implementation". Get your facts straight within your company, have your talking points well-defined, and make sure your spokespeople know the talking points and stick to them and THEN start a dialogue with your customers.
    Last edited by Tolero; 06-13-2013 at 01:48 PM. Reason: removed rules violations

  19. #479
    Community Member ferd's Avatar
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    Jan 2008


    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Just to address people's passionate comments and opinions here: Keep in mind that this information is being presented to you far in advance of its implementation, and there's plenty of room to re-work the proposal in a variety of ways.
    Cordovan, when Glin posted the OP yesterday, the remarks people made were putting the cart before the horse. THANKS for reminding posters that "the team" is asking for input, and they are in the planning stage.Some people have posted some decent feedback, and I for one would like to see more.

  20. #480
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006


    Quote Originally Posted by cforce View Post
    Here's the million-dollar question for me: will losing ED xp result in loss of unlocked twist slots? If I get to keep all fate points (or potentially earn even more than the current max) by re-leveling destinies, I might consider it. That potentially cuts out a *lot* of the re-grind; usually only two or three of the EDs are ones I *actually* care about; all the others I'm leveling (and being annoyed about being in, most of the time) purely to generate fate points for twists.

    If we can keep all our fate points, AND they get rid of the ED map (where you have to have 3-4 ranks in an useless destiny to unlock a destiny you do want), then I might be for this.

    This is a chance to fix the ED system... I don't mind losing all the grind I've already done if I can keep the fate points, and my twist slots and can level in any ED I want. Because then I can just relevel the 3-5 EDs I'm interested in (and have fun playing while doing it) instead of wasting time getting magister ranks on my fighter to unlock twists...

    If we have to re-grind the fate points again, wasting time AGAIN in EDs that suck for our character, then I agree the proposed system is terrible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

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