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  1. #421
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    I don't like that fact that epic xp keeps incrementally increasing.
    I would prefer to see all epic levels cost XX points to gain.
    Does it?

    My reading is that they will reduce the XP requirements to get back to 28 when this is introduced. See post 340 for some guestimates.

  2. #422

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    Sigh...

    Drinking an xp potion again, to protect from repletion penalty in case I cannot TR
    due to all this .

    tells you, 'lol huge DDO forum raucus huh?'

  3. #423

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Does it?

    My reading is that they will reduce the XP requirements to get back to 28 when this is introduced. See post 340 for some guestimates.
    Even with your estimated reductions, each level gets larger.

    Past evidence shows that the level cap will increase every year or two.
    Even with your reductions, it get crazy big fast if you add 10 more levels.

  4. #424
    The Hatchery Mryal's Avatar
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    Allright so this idea somehow beats the 'hard to kill' (for those that remember that) and is the worst you guys ever had.

    Epic TR can be a cool concept.But what you guys (turbine) are failing to notice is,while we all know TR is suposed to reset everything, it was always that way, it has also been established that TRing didnt reset EDs.Making heroic TR reset your EDs now (or any kind of TR) gives the whole 'Turbine gives then takes away feeling', wich is TRUE for that statement.

    Before this proposed changes, TRing would not reset your EDs, now TRing would reset your EDs regardless, that is taking something away from costumers for no reason, and you never do that on any kind of business.

    When i first heard of Epic TR, this is what the idea i had of what it would be : TR at 28 back to 20 using one ED.Why not try that.

    Heres the whole proposal:

    Heroic TR: Can be taken at any lv 20+, doesnt resets EDs, doesnt gives any ED related benefits.Works 100% as per live

    Epic TR: Must be taken at 28 (or 30, will it be 30 one day? when it does, is the whole system gonna change again cause it will be 30?), must choose a maxed ED to keep, gives TR feat on that ED, does not reset anything.TRs you back to level 20, possibly increasing xp needed between 20-28 accordingly to how heroic TR works now.

    If you TR on both heroic + epic way at the same time youre taken back to 1 and if you were alredy 36 points in the previous life youre now 38.Does not affects heroic xp curve, everything else is the same as mentioned above.
    Give every person a gun and the richest man is the one that sells crutches

  5. #425

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    tells you, 'lol I think they really need to clarify epic advantage for heroic tring '

    tells you, 'you know for my toons right now.. I can't think of any reason to get any exp for my toons that aren't already 25'

    tells you, 'all my other toons are gonna go up to lvl 20.. then just TR lol.. cause it useless to go to 25 for me...'

    tells you, 'I can't imagine anyone buying a tome of fate or keys of destiny right now, can you? lol'


    this is big if I log in and start getting tells in game about it

  6. #426
    Community Member Devilteck's Avatar
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    Default Milka What?

    For some clarification from the devs on this, if a said person has grinded out all the ED's to max this person will have to start over? Because if that's the case then I will be done with this game for ever. I spent countless hours grinding the darn things so when I'm working on my completionist project(6th life atm) I would not have to worry about this when I was leveling epics if I chose to. Now if all that hard work and time has been wasted for a money grab I and my guild of at least 200 members have vowed to quite this game because enough is enough. If a dev could clarify this then /rant off. I don't mind change but when the game changes so much that people waste literally 100's of hours of game time because of a money grab then say its because the players asked for it I call shenanigans. And for the love of all the DDO gods can some one tell me how the put in carriage returns because no matter what I do it takes them out. Thanks.


    The sleeper has awakened

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  7. #427

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    Sigh now I am real upset.

    Going into the demonweb which I am going to be utterly lost, so I hate having an xp potion ticking.

    But drinking the xp potion anyway to second guess my second guess of my second guess.

    Sigh...I used to admire the Devs...

  8. #428
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevindithas View Post
    I like the idea but not my interpreted understanding of the implementation planned, plz don't take all our destiny xp for Epic Re-Incarnation, obviously take our epic level xp tho.

    All the 'killing the game' and 'I'll quit for real' noise aside, I have a few questions regarding how the proposed TR changes appear to work.


    HEROIC TRing (HTR):


    1-Assuming I understood what was written in the OP (always a long shot), it sounds like if I don't care about epic EDs and I TR my character immediately upon L20, then I won't even notice a change to HTRing?

    2- If I max one epic destiny and 'lock in' before TRing, it sounds like I get to keep that ED every time I HTR? So like now, but I only get to keep one ED instead of however many I've unlocked.



    EPIC TRing (ETR):


    1- Theoretically, if I wanted a 38 point build, can't I just HTR three times, then ETR once? That only requires me to max two ED trees for my ETR right? Wouldn't I just do that before maxing out the rest of my EDs? That way I would only have to repeat one ED (presumably a fun one that I enjoy) one time and still get a 38 point build?

  9. #429
    The Hatchery CaptainSpacePony's Avatar
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    Thumbs up I like ETR

    First and foremost, let me say the proposed changes to reincarnation are TERRIFIC! Ever since the level cap was raised to 25, the TR system has felt outdated and lacking in many ways. Currently, most characters that TR don't spend a lot of time in epic content as it does little to nothing for their next life. Most characters galavanting about in epic content don't TR as it's a grind and offers little incentive at end game, especially when compared to EDs and twists of fate. This new system makes we WANT to play all content with my completionist (in progress) each life instead of starting over when I hit Eveningstar.

    Glin's OP was terrific news from a game play perspective, however, as the majority of replies on the thread clearly indicate, it is political minefield for two and a half big reasons:
    1. Since ED introduction, ED XP persists through reincarnation, as initially intended.
    2. Many players have invested time, effort, and love into fleshing out or maxing their EDs. The maxers in particular feel threatened by the announced change.
    2.5. Glin must have known his announcement would go over like exploding a bag of excrement (extra sulfur) in church yet the announcement did not actively engage and strive to mitigate the imminent backlash.

    It would have been terrific if the epic TR system had been rolled out last year, but it wasn't so now it seems the options are to either cave into the DooOOOMmmMMsayers and scrap the plan or to make the most of it. If my first sentence didn't already make it clear, I strongly support the latter. To do this, I have a few recommendations, some are design based, but most are information/communication campaign based.

    1. Clarify that Karmic bonds stack. Each time you epic TR you can get an additional bonded ED, so after enough ETRs, all your EDs are locked in (again). This was pretty clearly implied in the OP, but should be more clearly stated.
    1a. Clarify the limit to the number of epic past life feats attainable (considering the current number of EDs). The OP states that ETR requires a non-bonded ED, which would limit the number of ETRs and therefore the max number of Epic past life feats to the number of EDs. That would mean no Epic completionist x3. Is this WAI?

    2. Point out that crossing "unwanted" EDs to get to your "final" ED is less bothersome for those that ETR because they will begin a new ED at lvl 20 each life so they are less likely to have to slog through superfluous EDs to get where they want.

    3. RESTRUCTURE THE ED RAINBOW BRIDGES! If toons must continue to level an ED to a certain level before switching (currently 3 or 4) then the paths between EDs NEED to be shortened. I propose allowing all EDs to be directly connected to one another. If that is unnacceptable, at a minimum, ALL spheres should have direct links between their most flavorfully similar EDs. With the current EDs the bridges should be
    Unyielding Sentinel <--> Grandmaster of Flowers (no change)
    Fatesinger <--> Shadowdancer (no change)
    Fury of the Wild <--> Legendary Dreadnaught (Barbarians' default ED should have always been closer to the martial sphere than the Fey archers')
    Primal Avatar <--> Exalted Angel (Druid was originally a Cleric sub-class)
    Exalted Angel <--> Magister (A caster to caster link)
    Draconic Incarnation <--> Shiradi Champion (Shriadi is more a caster ED and both EDs are tied to extra-racial heritage)

    As future EDs are released, the bridges should shift. (For example if a "cleric" ED is released, it would connect to Primal Avatar in place of Exalted Angel.

    4. As noted in an earlier, brilliant post, Epic advantage needs to be 2 ranks/ED level. (This will go A LONG way to appeasing those min-maxers who feel obligated to have everything (completionistx3, max EDs etc) who are feeling alienated by the change.)

    5. Repeat XP penalties. It's been said countless times in numerous threads, but especially in anticipation of TRs requiring more even more XP, this issue needs relief. Dodging content at level so you can farm it cap is unfun. There are lots of suggestions on how to address this, and the one I'll put forward again to have the penalties decay/vanish over time (like ransak for example).

    6. Consider a Fate point/twist of fate incentive for ETR. There has been some good discussion in the this thread.

    7. Clarify how Icon TRs affect the completionist feat(s). (I assume not at all as they aren't a class.)

    8. Do NOT make the epic past life feats OP. (eg Magister PL eb +5 DC and 5 Spell pen. With a 3x stack That would be +15 DC and spell Pen!!!) We don't need or want that kind of arms race. DDO is game of inches that add up. EDs slipped a bit there last year (OP IMO) don't do it again.

    For those who are feeling frustrated by the announcement, and are saying they'll quit, consider this, You won't lose any ED xP if you don't TR! Step back, take a breath and consider that while the news may be unwelcome, it really is a much better design that the current model. Turbine is striving to make the game the best they can. This new system is a big improvement, although the adjustment will be uncomfortable. Keep giving them feedback on how best to implement it to make the game better.

    Thanks for the read.
    Someone got it wrong. Everyone expected the Spanish Inquisition because they were required to give 30 days notice, by law.
    I can be found on Orien. My more active toons are Cilon, Solstone in Your Pack, and sometimes Acroyer.

  10. #430

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    You Devs owe me two apologizes for scaring us twice with alpha and this.

  11. #431
    Uber Uber Completionist
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    My big concern is when the level cap goes up to 40, any incremental increase makes things awful eventually.

    I would prefer to see what was in the First Edition D&D rules, that after a certain point all levels require the
    same amount of xp to earn. That way Epic Quest xp can be about the same amounts for each one.
    Let's deal with one crisis at a time.

    When or if the level cap is raised to 40, there's nothing stopping them from rescaling the Epic XP if they decide that's what they want to do. We'll worry about that another day, it's fixable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    No I don't like epic advantage at all.
    Who cares about little bonuses to one life.
    I would hard for that Epic Destiny xp, and I am proud to have capped it out.

    The whole proposal does not even account for the expected increase to level 30 next year.
    Epic advantage will allow anyone with 25 ED levels to start an Iconic at 20. That's not trivial.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    Yes amaranth xp is awful, yes challenge xp is awful, but doing a legend life requires
    carefully planning out xp and that is not good. It scares people and intimidates them.
    Yes we should address those quests with poor xp, but we should also be some sort
    of restrant on xp spirals.

    It makes no sense at all, that level 18 to 19 and 19 to 20 each costs around a half million xp when level
    20 to 21 only costs 300 k xp.

    The spiral on epic xp and epic destiny xp is horrible when you consider that epic destinies are
    going to be increased as well the level cap.
    Heroic XP is fine as it is. Without playing for crazy hours, you can comfortably do a 3rd life in 2 weeks, a month if you're seriously casual about doing it and choose not to farm anything. It shouldn't be touched, but some quests should be addressed.

    From 18 to 19 and 19 to 20 are the culmination of your Heroic life, it's the final hurdle that you need to overcome to achieve Epic status.

    If they keep Heroic TR as it is without affecting your ED XP in any way, then it is crystal clear to people that if they choose to Epic TR for whatever reason they will lose ED XP in anything that's not bonded. This makes it a simple choice for people:
    (a) If you want to lose your Heroic XP and Epic XP but keep your ED XP and gain a Heroic Past Life, then you should Heroic TR.
    (b) If you want to lose your Heroic XP, Epic XP and ED XP but gain an ED Past Life or TR into an Iconic Hero then you should Epic TR.

    It's the lack of choice in retaining your ED XP that I see as the problem.

  12. #432
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devilteck View Post
    For some clarification from the devs on this, if a said person has grinded out all the ED's to max this person will have to start over? Because if that's the case then I will be done with this game for ever.

    OK, not picking a fight here, serious question: why would you have to start over? If we don't ETR don't we get to keep all the EDs we earned? Did I miss a key point in the OP somewhere?

  13. #433
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    [QUOTE=CaptainSpacePony;...
    ...

    For those who are feeling frustrated by the announcement, and are saying they'll quit, consider this, You won't lose any ED xP if you don't TR! Step back, take a breath and consider that while the news may be unwelcome, it really is a much better design that the current model. Turbine is striving to make the game the best they can. This new system is a big improvement, although the adjustment will be uncomfortable. Keep giving them feedback on how best to implement it to make the game better.

    Thanks for the read.[/QUOTE]

    Erm...if you do TR make it soon... not when ETR is implemented..TR is necessary when you need to change race, and when you do you get ETR hammered.. yup.. good idea hammer session time...

  14. #434

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    Honestly? Turbine set out goals for players. Gaining past lives and gaining gear were the two main ways that you could improve a character. That was the 'scorecard' in this game. Most people play games for two reasons - because they're fun and to win. Very few games lack a 'win'-state or some semblance of one at least. My point is that Turbine has lurched so much from one direction to another that I've given up on playing to 'win' anything in this game. They've proven with this change that they're willing to wipe out over 80% of your progression toward 'winning' (see my previous post for the numbers) if you decide you'd like to progress your character further. And this is progress we were told was permanent.

    As another example, this would be akin to Turbine changing their mind and wiping all crafting xp the next time you TR. Sure, you can not TR - but they've now taken away most of the options that character has at progressing toward some Turbine-defined 'win'-state unless you're willing to regrind all of that crafting xp.

    So to answer your question succinctly - I played before because it was fun and because I wanted to make my character as good as I could within Turbine's game. Now I've given up that latter part. I'll play for my enjoyment only because building a community in a game where so many people are getting ticked off and leaving is a losing battle and trying to read Turbine's mind about what progression won't be wiped out in the next update is a battle completely lost. I'm off their treadmill. And I'm off their balance sheet.
    Well, fair enough.

    I've always played this game - both MMO and P&P versions - for sheer entertainment. "Winning", however it is defined, has never really been a goal for me. The elation it provides is fleeting and mostly ephemeral considering there is no discernible completion point. I take pleasure from little victories along the way. If there was a definitive ending, I'd lose the opportunity to do that.

    To each, his own.

    Thank you for the candid response.
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  15. #435
    Community Member mons's Avatar
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    I still believe that the Completionist feat should be granted for FREE upon completion of all classes for Heroic and now Epic levels. I mean common, the Grind that exists now and the one you propose for Epic is just ridiculous. There's really no reward as you have to purchase it regardless.

    And on another note:

    Enough with the **** poor thought out process that Turbine has done so consistently in the past. If your gonna change everything yet again, then please, listen to what the folks here that play the game are telling ya and do it right for once.
    Zerg of Thelanis

  16. #436
    The Hatchery NytCrawlr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mryal View Post
    When i first heard of Epic TR, this is what the idea i had of what it would be : TR at 28 back to 20 using one ED.Why not try that.
    Yup! Exactly what I thought, or at least was hoping, it would be.

    But so far it seems that they want to stick it to you for playing the grind game.

    Granted, I only have one character with max EDs, and while I would like to get the others there at some point, I don't think it is fair on any level to have to redo what we earned through EDs just because we want to TR.

    Fooled me once, not going to let myself get fooled again. Too many newer and more enjoyable (for me) games out there right now, and I will have no inclination to return or use this as a game to take breaks from others if this sort of thing is implemented.

    Still waiting for more info and hoping something was lost in the context (or that they will at least rethink their strategy).

  17. #437
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    OK, not picking a fight here, serious question: why would you have to start over? If we don't ETR don't we get to keep all the EDs we earned? Did I miss a key point in the OP somewhere?
    Yes, you missed a point. EDs will get reset with HEROIC TR as well.

    That's what we're raging about.

  18. #438
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post

    Heroic XP is fine as it is. Without playing for crazy hours, you can comfortably do a 3rd life in 2 weeks, a month if you're seriously casual about doing it and choose not to farm anything. It shouldn't be touched, but some quests should be addressed.

    From 18 to 19 and 19 to 20 are the culmination of your Heroic life, it's the final hurdle that you need to overcome to achieve Epic status.

    I agree. Especially as a VIP with a greater xp tome I RARELY drink xp pots for my third life. I will do a bit of xp farming in maybe 6 quests, but I enjoy those quests and compared to hardcore TR-Train players what I do is more akin to berry picking than farming.


    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    If they keep Heroic TR as it is without affecting your ED XP in any way, then it is crystal clear to people that if they choose to Epic TR for whatever reason they will lose ED XP in anything that's not bonded. This makes it a simple choice for people:
    (a) If you want to lose your Heroic XP and Epic XP but keep your ED XP and gain a Heroic Past Life, then you should Heroic TR.
    (b) If you want to lose your Heroic XP, Epic XP and ED XP but gain an ED Past Life or TR into an Iconic Hero then you should Epic TR.

    It's the lack of choice in retaining your ED XP that I see as the problem.

    To be honest I only see this as a problem for folks who maxed out their EDs and still want the +2 from the ETR (or do you also get another fate point per ETR?).

  19. #439
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Between all of my characters that need TRs (TRing is still necessary to update your character to the new game, after all...and god I feel sorry for any completionists), this change will cost me roughly 50mil ED XP right off the bat - and probably require multiple times that just to get my EDs up to acceptable levels again. This change feels extremely over-punishing to the powergaming community, and personally, if things stay this way (where a TR will wipe my ED XP except for bonded destinies, which means it'd take me at LEAST 11 TRs to re-max my EDs), I feel like we're being driven away.

    Over the past couple months I've had my desire to play lessened, especially since u18 and its complete borking of half my main characters...a change like this would remove all of my motivation to play, and most likely I will not be inclined to renew my subscription next May when it is up. I'm just really happy now I didn't jump on buying the expansion and instead waited a bit to see what was in it.
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  20. #440
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Yes, you missed a point. EDs will get reset with HEROIC TR as well.

    That's what we're raging about.

    I didn't miss it. I addressed that in my post above the one you responded to. While I don't agree with the design decision per se, if this is implemented I'd simply choose not to HTR my characters with lots of EDs rather than quit playing.

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