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  1. #261
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    • True Reincarnation has always been about giving up your current life in exchange for increased power in your next life.
    Yes. Do this.

    If I give up my heroic life XP, I get a heroic past life feat
    If I give up one epic destiny XP, I get one epic destiny past life feat
    If I give up all of my epic destinies XP, I get all of my epic destiny past life feats


    Keeping XP in the destiny that you just got a Past life bonus from makes no sense, as does losing XP in a destiny you get nothing for.
    Last edited by Monkey_Archer; 06-12-2013 at 10:35 PM.
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  2. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazyfruit View Post
    Will this form of TR be DDO-store only?
    Is that a trick question? Of course it will be mostly store only (think drop rates that make RoSS shards seem common) after two expansions and many other store only items have conditioned us to accept that sort of thing. Welcome to the new and much fairer level sigal that even subscribers will have to buy in order to continue to advance their character.

    Also, that 3 day timer on TRs goes with this as it is much better for people to pay for their goods every three days than making them wait a week. Actually, don't be surprised to see the timer go completely away, along with some new aids to faster leveling.

  3. #263
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    True Reincarnation has always been about giving up your current life in exchange for increased power in your next life. We are early enough in the design work that we want to also hear ideas from players on what types of destiny feats they’d like to see in their next life in exchange for reincarnating their destinies.
    Did you even read the OP?

  4. #264
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Let me provide a more specific alternate suggestion:

    Epic Destiny True Reincarnation, version 2.0


    • Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)
    • You must have a maximized ED to complete this TR
    • Grants an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat

      • Feat based on active, maximized Epic Destiny

    • Destiny XP is reset to zero for the active, maximized Epic Destiny
      • Other Destinies are not affected

    • Grants a Class Past Life Feat (same as Heroic TR)
    • Adds 2 build points up to a 38 point build
    Quote Originally Posted by nni View Post
    This makes sense. It does not punish people for having capped out other destinies.
    This makes much more sense and is much more inline with how TR works and should be expected to work. Allows those of us that have many destinies maxed to heroic TR or even Epic TR and still have access to our HARD EARNED destinies BUT without the benefits of destiny PL, we would still have to choose to redo each specific destiny to get that destiny PL benefit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    Insulting the development team is not allowed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak
    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

  5. #265
    Community Member Lauf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    Yes. Do this.

    If I give up my heroic life XP, I get a heroic past life feat
    If I give up one epic destiny XP, I get one epic destiny past life feat
    If I give up all of my epic destinies XP, I get all of my epic destiny past life feats


    Keeping XP in the destiny that you just got a Past life bonus from makes no sense, as does losing XP in a destiny you get nothing for.
    This. QFT.

  6. #266
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreppo View Post
    Right now Completionist just requires all the Class Past Life feats. I didn't see any indication in the initial dev post that the Iconic Past Life feats would be added to the requirements for Completionist. Did I miss a post?
    That's kind of the point of completionist, isn't it? to accumulate all the past life feats... Seems logical.

  7. #267
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    So let me see if I have this right...
    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    (paraphrasing) Our plan is that in the near future, in order to gain maximum build/advantage for your character, in order for your character to have "done it all" and aquired every thing it can, you will have to not only run several if not all classes 3x; but also take each life to the current level cap (minimum of 28, may increase later) knowing that any destiny xp you earn beyond 1 full destinies worth will be a total waste (other than getting a few extra ranks at the start of your next life.) Similarly, any destiny xp leveling you've already done beyond 1 destinies worth will be rendered worthless, beyond getting a few extra ranks when you TR."
    I notice there is no mention of:

    A) What happens to fate points? Do these survive the new TR process, or do they have to be re-earned by bonding all the destinies?

    B) How do Iconics affect Completionist? Will all current completionists loose there benefits until they gain the Iconic past lives; thus leaving them no choice but to partake in the new system or loose out on there existing bonous?


    Thank you for sharing your long term plan. I think I don't like the planned means of extending game life. I won't say it's a game killer, I will say it sounds like a game killer for me. I'm no longer concerned about what you do with the enhancement pass.

    I think you've just gained another game company a minimum of $360 of my money, and I now look forward to running in the shadows more than crawling through the dungeon.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  8. #268

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    I am excited to start sharing our plans for the future of the Reincarnation system! Later this year (targeting Update 20) we look forward to introducing two new TR destinations, Epic Destiny True Reincarnation and Iconic True Reincarnation. We’ve got some minor improvements involving Lesser and Greater Reincarnation in store, as well.
    I am excited too. Thank you for sharing your idea early.

    We’ve seen a number of questions and discussions about TR, Iconics, and the TR / end-game gap. For the expansion pack, we are focused on ensuring that the new races are fun and playable, the content is fun and beautiful, and that the enhancement system changes launch as expected!
    The iconics look like fun, great idea.
    With that, we plan to build out the TR system later in the year.
    Kind of saw that coming. Sounds great. There are things there that need reviewing.
    The team is also taking the time to get your early feedback as the designers and engineers lock down feature plans. -
    Thank you for this opportunity for early feedback.
    How does this fit (or change) your playstyle?
    Sure, Ill be glad to tell you. Mainly I only play a single character who is an uber completionist with all epic destinies maxed.
    Read on for details, then let us know!
    Will do
    A few goals for Epic Destiny TR:


    • Extend Reincarnation system to allow for 38-point builds
    • Include Epic Destinies in the TR cycle (with Epic Destiny Past Life Feats)
    • Reward you for additional investment in Epic Destinies (with starting ranks after TR)
    • Adjust the XP curve in Epic levels for multi-life TR to avoid the dramatic escalating grind
    • Include Iconics in the TR cycle (with Iconic Past Life Feats)
    • Allow you to TR into and out of Iconics (if you own Iconics)
    I like the thought of 38 point build.

    I like the idea of Epic Destiny Past life feats if they are passively granted.
    Personally, I would remove every purchasable past life feat in the entire game.
    A good solid character requires normal feats to function, and we could use a luxury feat or two.
    Once more epic feats arrive we will have even less room. It may seem like less options
    but in the long run it will grant more.

    I don't regard removing my epic destiny xp in exchange for heroic ranks a reward.
    I view it as the DM taking my candy away from me.

    The next phrase is a bit difficult to understand. I am fearful that Epic Xp will keep
    heavily increasing as it already does. Epic level 21 went rather smoothy. Epic level
    24 is starting to seem like too much xp required. Should the same pattern continue,
    things will get way out of hand.

    If you are pondering changing death valley for legend lives, that is the xp for the last
    few levels, then I agree that could be nice to reformat. Level 18 and 19 are excessive.

    I applaud you for creating a Iconic TR past life passive feat. A purchasable Iconic feat
    will gather dust on the shelf and is a total waste of the developers time.

    I applaud you for adjusting your views of Iconics and seeing the potential therein.
    How does this system look in practice?

    Heroic True Reincarnation


    • Heroic TR remains primarily unchanged at level 20 or above
    • Grants a Class Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
    • Adds 2 build points up to a 36 point build
    • Benefits from the Epic Advantage if you earn Epic Destinies before TR (below)
    Nothing seems changed here except Epic Advantage.

    I would recommend the following changes:
    Please make all completionist an auto grant feat.

    Please remove all purchasable past life feat, this is very important because
    you can recycle them into other passively grant past life feats at a later time.
    You will need these inspirations later on, as you are adding tons of various passive
    past life feats.
    Epic Destiny True Reincarnation


    • Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)
    • Grants an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat
      • Feat based on active, maximized Epic Destiny

    • Karmic Bond -The active ED’s experience is now bonded through each ED True Reincarnation going forward
    • Grants a Class Past Life Feat (same as Heroic TR)
    • You must have a maximized, non-bonded ED to complete this TR
    • Adds 2 build points up to a 38 point build
    This whole thing has some holes in it, let us try to address them.
    You have not stated what happened to the character.
    Are you placing us at level one again.
    This is huge mistake if you are.

    Why are you combining a heroic past life TR feat with an Epic Destiny past life feat.
    Don't you realize how many players already have 3 past live in their favorite class?

    Please separate these two individual TR types apart.

    It would be much better to drop the character down to level 20, granting
    a cool epic destiny past life than dropping them back to level 1.

    Also do you intend of making level 28 which an odd level to be the place one
    Epic TRs always or is it something that will unfairly increase later on? I envisioned
    level 30 myself or will it cap at 30 when that is here.

    Also can we keep our fate points already earned and earn new ones?
    Do you plan on increasing the amount of twists and their levels.
    Twists are extremely popular.
    I personally would be willing to throw away all my epic destiny xp if you took
    the level cap off of twists of fate and allowed us to keep already earned fate points.
    Particularly if you keep the same formula and created a four and fifth twist slot.

    In fact I might hesitate to bond all of my epic destinies so as to continue earning fate points.
    Epic Advantage


    With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)
    That does not seem like an advantage to me.

    Hmm...as I said before, if want to really open up twists of fate, then I don't mind
    throwing my epic destiny xp into what I consider a trash can.
    Iconic True Reincarnation

    That’s right; Iconics will have their own form of True Reincarnation, earning their own unique set of past-life feats. You will also be able to TR from any character into an Iconic, which begins at level 15, like normal. Epic Advantage also works on both ends, as well, transferring ED XP earned in your Iconic life, and, if you TR into an Iconic, adding XP on top of your level 15 starting XP.Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)


    • Grants an Iconic Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
    • Adds 2 build points up a 36 point build
    • Earns ranks from Epic Advantage
    Loving this.

    Again, please get rid of purchasable past life feats.

    Again, the whole Epic Advantage thing depends on the twists because
    the main reason we grind out epic destiny xp is to have more twist slots
    and more things to twist into along with unlocking new epic destinies.

    What else?

    Here are some changes we’re currently exploring:


    • Reincarnation cooldown timer reduced to 3 days.
    • Reincarnation XP curves smoothed to ease penalties for multiple lives.
    • Lesser Reincarnation will allow a Heroic character to reincarnate as a Champion. Greater Reincarnation will no longer be sold, in favor of an improved Lesser Reincarnation.
    • Iconic characters will be able to Lesser Reincarnate
    Reducing the cooldown timer to 3 days sounds about right.

    Ah yes, smooth the xp curve would be nice.

    Improving lesser reincarnating sounds good.

    Allowing Iconics to lesser reincarnate should be high priority.

    We are eager to begin production on this system and appreciate the many players that are eager to see us fulfill the end game potential that the TR system presents. With these changes we are also keeping a long-term view for TR, such as how to expand the Epic Destiny system and continue to support level cap growth in the future.
    This is important to maintain the birds eye view.

    The epic destiny system should go up to level 10 at least in due time.
    The level cap should go up to level 30 at least in due time, possibly to 40.

    All this must be considered.
    Our sincere intentions are to provide these features to you, and the DDO community at large.
    Thank you, the overall ideas to work on are interesting.
    I hoped for Iconic TRing and Iconic Past lives.
    We invite you response to these details and thank you for your support and fortitude while we roll these changes out in support of this year’s expansion pack.
    Thank you.
    The team is thrilled that DDO continues to grow, innovate, and provide a great D&D experience.
    I know, me too.

  9. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by knightgf View Post
    So, all this bashing and hate is because of the loss of...epic destinies? I shake my head at you people.
    It's probably more because we actually suffered through the whole process of grinding out those off, and often next to useless to us, ED's the old system required. Just to see them take away what we got for doing so.

    I have a feeling that if the current system wasn't such an awful naked grind there wouldn't be so much angst.

    to be honest, this new system actually makes more sense than what we have currently. But they are implementing it in a way similar to, say, eliminating the extra xp needed in TR life while nullifying all past lives earned in the old, harder, system.

  10. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    Between this and Turbine adding the enchantment pass, I don’t know what to think. We all speculate doom, but it really feels that Turbine wants people to just walk away.
    I think they are operating under the assumption that simplifying the character build process and replacing the aweful ED system they put in place (never mind that it nullifies what players got for actually participating in it's it's awfulness) that hoards of new players are going to come play their 7 year old game.

    That, or they are just using us as systems play testers for some new game.

  11. #271
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    I think I understand what they are trying to do. When you TR, you need to lose power and the only way to do that is to unable you to use a full maxed out ED to level from 20-28. That makes sense.

    Now the real problem, as some people pointed out is if you have all your destiny maxed out atm and remember what it took you to do that... you're simply disgusted. But in reality, if you're going to chain TR EDs (because honestly this is not for everyone), you can max out your main destiny and pretty much all the needed twists or simply your main destiny (for power) + the one you want to get the TR from and that, just by reaching cap. One class simply doesn't have a need for every single destiny.

    But you MUST keep all trees unlocked and most likely your fate points. Or then that... would be totally ridiculous.
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  12. #272

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Thanks for all the responses so far everyone. The team will try to address the details as best we can this early in development. Here are a few more clarifications as we’re reviewing your comments:
    Thank you for communicating with us.
    • Our intention is that players will be able to earn or buy Epic Destiny TR hearts of wood.
    I like the fact that free to play players can earn a true heart of wood.
    I like the fact that you will offer the same opportunity with Epic Destiny
    • We’ll continue to add more epic level content so that players have a variety of paths for leveling.

    • To engage with Epic Destiny TR, you don’t have to have all destinies maxed out. Character level 28 + one maxed destiny is when you can bond your first destiny.
    Ok, but remember many player have at least one toon with all epic destinies capped.
    • We are revisiting XP curves in not only the Heroic levels but also the Epic levels. This would make leveling (and ultimately bonding) a Destiny a faster process compared to the current pace.
    Thank you for reviewing the spiral of xp.
    • True Reincarnation has always been about giving up your current life in exchange for increased power in your next life. We are early enough in the design work that we want to also hear ideas from players on what types of destiny feats they’d like to see in their next life in exchange for reincarnating their destinies.
    I am glad you want to listen.
    I very much would like a series of spell like abilities offered as past life feats, that have a cooldown only
    and no x uses per day limitation.

    Please allow me to earn the follow spell like abilities:
    Cure Moderate Wounds
    Searing Light
    Web
    Dimension Door
    Scorching Ray

    Please convert these purchasable past life feat into a passive one to be earned somehow:

    Past Life: Bardic Dilettante Past Life You recall more about your past life as a bard. You have +1 to all Charisma based skills, +1 to the DC's of your Enchantment spells, and can Inspire Courage three times per rest. (Activate this bard ability to rally your companions, giving them a +1 morale bonus to saves against fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls before enhancements.)
    (Having this scale with class level would make it very desirable).

    Past Life: Arcane Initiate Past Life You recall more about your past life as a wizard. You have +1 to the DC's of spells you cast and can cast the magic missile spell ten times per rest, creating a missile of magical energy (Magic Missile) that darts forth and unerringly strikes its target inflicting 1d4+1 force damage. For every 2 caster levels beyond first you gain an additional missile, maximum 10 missiles.
    (Change 10/rest into 8 second cooldown and I would love to gain this somehow.)

    Past Life: Acolyte of Divine Secrets Past Life You recall more about your past life as a Favored Soul. You have +2 to your Diplomacy skill and can call down the wrath of your former deity, producing an Avenging Light effect ten times per rest. (Activate this Favored Soul ability to cause a searing orb of radiant light to smite your target, dealing 1d8 hit points of light damage plus an additional 1d8 per three caster levels.)
    (Change 10/rest into 5 second cooldown and I would love to gain this somehow.)


    Past Life: Arcane Prodigy Past Life You recall more about your past life as a sorcerer. Your maximum spell points are increased by 10 at first level, and 5 spell points for each additional level and can produce random elemental damage spells ten times per rest. (Activate this sorcerer ability to blast a target with a ray of combined elements, doing 1d12 damage of a random elemental type plus an additional 1d12 per three caster levels on impact. A successful Reflex save reduce the damage by half.)
    (Change 10/rest into 8 second cooldown and I would love to gain this somehow.)

    I would like to see all the purchaseable past life feats removed, revised and reformatted into auto grant passive past life feats.
    We are also making balance changes to compensate for the fact that the system goes into higher levels, and we expect that parts of the design summary will seem less harsh once these details are better understood. We’ll be reading discussion in this thread and will continue to post here with more details as we go (such as details regarding Fate Points, Completionist, and the exact effects of turning in your Epic Destiny xp on your new life).
    Please take the level cap off of twists.
    Evasion is a Tier 5 twist in primal Avatar.
    I would honestly throw away every epic destiny rank that I currently have if
    you would allow me to keep my current fate points and increase my first twist level
    to obtain this precious twist.

    Please grant us unlimited twist slots with ever increasing cost to unlock and expand them.

    Please allow us to keep already earned fate points.

    Please expand completionist into multiple forms.

    For example new completionist auto granted feats for:

    Completionist all classes done once +2 bonus to all skills and ability scores
    Completionist all classes done twice +3 bonus to all skills and ability scores
    Completionist all classes done thrice +4 bonus to all skills and ability scores

    Completionist all Iconics done once
    Completionist all Iconics done twice
    Completionist all Iconics done thrice

    Completionist all Epic Destinies done once

    That would be a lot of new auto grant completionist feats.


    I cannot stress enough that having to pay a feat to gain
    any past life feat is a bad idea.


    I cannot stress enough that releasing fates and twists are the prime point
    of success or failure in epic tring.
    Last edited by Silverleafeon; 06-13-2013 at 12:09 AM.

  13. #273
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    The way I understand the system to be designed, it is set up to allow new players to acquire these new ED past life feats, while severely discouraging anyone that has ground all ED xp from participating in this system. Perhaps an attempt to "level the playing field"?

    Either way, it looks like something that would cause a lot of hardcore players to quit the game, if faced with the prospect of having to re-grind for the >21 million ED xp.
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  14. #274
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Another random suggestion here to add to the pile. How about for an epic advantage, instead of adding a rank for every destiny level (added on at the start), give me a stone of experience (+1 level) for every maxed destiny when I EDTR? That way I get to choose which levels I skip (the later ones, duh) and get maximum use out of my epic advantage instead of wasting it on lowbie levels that take minimal time to breeze through. It would also let me set up an Otto's Box stone (8 to 16) the way I want and if I don't use all my epic advantage stones on any given life (maybe I choose to use only 2 per life to skip level 18 and 19), I can just toss them in the bank to use on my next one. Or I could save them for epic levels as well to skip from level 27 to 28 for example if I want to do another TR on the spot.

    Anyway, it seemed like a good idea in my head.
    Last edited by redspecter23; 06-13-2013 at 12:19 AM.
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  15. #275

    Default Super twist farm? or Fail?

    If we are allowed to keep our fate points and if twists no longer have a level cap,
    and if three more twist slots are granted then this whole things has some promise.

    Suddenly one can level up in one's favorite destinies to earn fate points.

    Suddenly one can earn the cheaper ranks for twist points.

    In fact throwing away all your epic destiny xp could be a huge advantage.
    So much that the Devs might have to adjust the xp needed per ranks,
    because the lowest ranks are so much easier to earn.


    If we are not allowed the above, then I really do not see any of this being worthwhile....


    But regardless epic destiny xp should only be affected by an Epic TR.
    Last edited by Silverleafeon; 06-13-2013 at 12:25 AM.

  16. #276
    Community Member cypan41's Avatar
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    Only way I would even contemplate doing this is if they took the xp I spent on ED's. Added it up, and gave me bonus feats as if I had used that xp to level. Would it be fair, yep, I think so. Would it be game breaking? Probably. But basically it wouldn't be any worse than this ludicrous idea.

  17. #277
    Uber Completionist Ilindith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    [*] Reincarnation XP curves smoothed to ease penalties for multiple lives.
    I would have liked that 35 lives ago.

    If you make it easier can I have free extra lives based on the difference between old and new amount of experience required to cap a TR? Cause, you know, you'd be invalidating millions worth of acquired exp.

    Also, losing ED experience on TR is, ridiculous.
    Distributed - Currently on life 72.

  18. #278
    Community Member Ykt's Avatar
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    Turbine decided to separate Heroic Levels from Epic Levels/Epic Destinies, it makes sense that the TR system should separate Heroic TR and Epic/ED TR.

    Doing an Heroic TR should not affect Epic Destinies.

    Who would give up 20 million XP?

    With the increased in power, Past Life feats should scale accordingly. How about automatically granting Active PL feats along with the Passive ones?
    Last edited by Ykt; 06-13-2013 at 12:32 AM.

  19. #279

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ykt View Post
    Turbine decided to separate Heroic Levels from Epic Levels/Epic Destinies, it makes sense that the TR system should separate Heroic TR and Epic/ED TR.

    Doing an Heroic TR should not affect Epic Destinies.

    Who would give up 20 million XP?
    +1

    Please separate epic destiny TRing and heroic TRing totally.

    We want choices and control over our toons.

  20. #280
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Default Bad for fully capped EDs, almost WORSE for partially done EDs

    OK, this plan is disastrous for people with fully capped EDs. Obviously (how it's not obvious to the devs is beyond me).
    But it might even be WORSE for those of us that are still working on it. What incentive do I have to run my Ranger who's only has 2 Spheres done? Any XP I earn towards my not yet done EDs might be for nothing in a few months? I mean unless I decide to never ETR him? You've just made it so that I have no reason to login to my ED-in-progress toon.

    I'm just in shock over here.

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