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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Thanks for all the responses so far everyone. The team will try to address the details as best we can this early in development.
    Best to make some simple design changes right away, it'll cost you orders of magnitude more in time and expense later.

    Only flaw with the system I can see is the Heroic TR wiping out ED XP.

  2. #182

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    you need to be able to apply exp to a destiny you are no currentlyt utilizing. period. exp should never be thrown away just because you need your character to be effective
    Formerly Rathic of harvestgain

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.
    So...somebody with only one destiny bonds it and loses nothing? Whereas somebody with 11 destinies bonds 1 and loses 10 of them? Wow. Talk about punishing success. You need to rethink that.

    And, isn't that completely backwards? The one kept, it's the one that you're supposedly TRing out of? (I.e., getting the destiny past life for?)

    The overall "goals" sounded fine, but the devil is in your details.

  4. #184
    Community Member TBot1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citzen_Gkar View Post
    Ok, I think this could work IF ALL OF THE ITEMS BELOW were implemented:

    - you grandfathered out all the old grinding by saying that any maxed out ED as of the day U20 hits is automatically bonded
    - unbonded unlocked EDs stay unlocked, even if all the XP itself is lost
    - fate points are not lost on TR or ETR
    I'd like time to give it more thought, but something like the above could make this workable. Anything that causes me to lose things I have already achieved would be too painful to swallow.

    I am on life 11 of a completionist path. I have maxxed out around half of the EDs. To lose EDs upon TRing would not be something I would be willing to do. I.e., I am pretty sure that would be the end of my enjoyment for the game.

    Another idea: why not make Epic TR similar to Heroic TR: leave EDs out of it altogether. Work your way to end of level 28. TR. Get a epic past-life feat, then run from level 20 to 28 again. EDs could remain unaffected, or at worse maybe you would need to re-earn just 1 ED before TR'ing again?

    I am seriously disappointed with this information from Turbine today, even though it is still early on and incomplete.
    "So maybe it's about time we all get a reality check and realize that if you raid, run epics, and have capped toons and worry about ED's TR's and all that jazz, you are a small part of the population of this game, a very small part in fact." -- Ungood

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Choosing to Epic TR and losing your unbonded destinies I don't have an issue with, it's a choice you can exercise or not.
    That would be great argument if they were introducing this "TR" system at the same time as the ED system.

    Yanking the rug out from under us by completely changing the way it works AFTER we put months of playing (and paying) into leveling up our EDs is just screwing over their customers.

    Also, I personally thought the preservation of EDs was a very nice feature. You could work on them a bit here, a bit there, TR, and then work on them some more.

    If I am a Fighter20 and TR, I lose all that FIGHTER XP, and get a Fighter past life, but I don't lose anything Wizard-related at all. If they want to have ED TRing, you should lose only the ONE ED you are TRing, not unrelated ones.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    Between this and Turbine adding the enchantment pass, I don’t know what to think. We all speculate doom, but it really feels that Turbine wants people to just walk away.
    Yeah, you can't be genuinely naive enough to actually believe that though, do you? A company has a desire to lose it's customers, it's revenue and be forced to dismiss all it's employees? You know many companies who work that way?

    I see it that they are trying to add something to game to help it attract more players, by making some of the systems more transparent in the case of the enhancements, and adding additional playability to the end-game in the Epic TRing.

    Now they haven't got either of these systems perfect from what I've seen and I've spent a lot of time looking, but neither are they a million miles from the mark. People actually asking them to abandon however many man-years of design and development in the new enhancements are kidding themselves. It's a lot easier to pull it back on-track with some straight forward changes that make it interesting and fun again, while actually adding more build variety. The Epic TRing just needs to leave Heroic TRing alone and make it clear Epic TRing is optional. Being able to Epic TR into a level 15 (+advantage ranks) of an Iconic is a nice idea that I don't anyone else had thought of, so lets give them credit for that. Gaining Epic Destiny Past Life Feats, Iconic Hero Past Life Feats and Epic Completionist Feats are also good options - so long as they are all auto-granted Feats and they revise the current Completionist Feat to be auto-granted too.

    What they can't afford to do in a competitive marketplace is say that nothing will ever change and only cater for the same closed player base, which will inevitably shrink through natural causes over time.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    I thought if I epic TR'd I would get credit for every destiny I maxed out rather than just one.

    I think you should revisit that aspect of the epic TR. It's fine starting over with no ED experience, I just want to get credit for the epic destinies I already capped out.
    That would make more sense. If I capped it and lost it, I should get the Past Life for it. Not lose 11 and get 1.

  8. #188
    Uber Completionist kain741's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    • True Reincarnation has always been about giving up your current life in exchange for increased power in your next life.

    Yes, this is true. I've TR'd many times to get this increased power. And if you would have come a year ago with this in mind, I would have called it a great idea. Then I could have planned for it...built for it. I built my completionist for 21 lives...and he is there. I've run countless hours of Impossible demands to cap out and be able to twist in needed abilities. Would these ED PL's make my toon stronger? I can only assume. Would I have sank cash into pots...hours into grinding ED's that I knowling was going to lose? Never! The issue isn't that are sacrificing to get stronger...we do that every life. The problem is that we could have avoided it with proper communication. If I was just sacrificing 1 ED for the PL, I would be ok...if you want me to sacrifice 11 for 1 PL, you are crazy. Give me 12 ED PL's and I'll TR again. Otherwise I will never TR another toon I have done ED work on...and that is all of them.
    Side note: Are Iconic's going to be required for completionist feat? If I lose my feat because I am forced to TR into another class and thus lose all my ED progress, I simply will not play.
    ZERG
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  9. #189
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    Thumbs down

    Ok so you want us to play this new mechanic that involves an ED wipe. Wow some ideas are so borne of fail it has to be done with that being the primary objective. I mean the rewards would have to enormous to forgo that much xp.

    Will the epic tr grant those feats during heroic levelling?

    Will epic tr's and/or Iconic past lives be required to gain completionist?

  10. #190
    Community Member Shmuel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    That would be great argument if they were introducing this "TR" system at the same time as the ED system.

    Yanking the rug out from under us by completely changing the way it works AFTER we put months of playing (and paying) into leveling up our EDs is just screwing over their customers.

    Also, I personally thought the preservation of EDs was a very nice feature. You could work on them a bit here, a bit there, TR, and then work on them some more.

    If I am a Fighter20 and TR, I lose all that FIGHTER XP, and get a Fighter past life, but I don't lose anything Wizard-related at all. If they want to have ED TRing, you should lose only the ONE ED you are TRing, not unrelated ones.
    You are quite right. The problem with this system is in its initial implementation. If they could simply find a way to lock in all epic destinies that you haev capped out at the time of u20s release, so that if you epic tr'ed people who have all destinies capped out woudl not lose 16b million xp, that would be fine. It could be that you still need to level from 1-28 for each destiny feat you get, and you only can get one per epic tr, but don't have to sacrifice all that people have worked and paid quite a lot to accomplish.
    Shmuel Xadin Xadins Errand Mohnster Yitzhak

  11. #191
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    Default Clarification please....

    We need clarification now rather than later.

    I am on my 14th life and have ground out 2 cirlcles: melee and specialist and am maxing out the rest for fate points. If I have to regrind them after... I think I will probably just give the game up to be honest. I'm not for going backwards on progress, I don't think it's very considerate given that the ED grind has been made to be so boring. To remove it and have to regrind every time to max out fate points does not make the game any sexier, it makes it ugly and boring.

    I love the game, but this would be my line in the sand, because of the sheer ridiculousness and total lack of respect of people's time and money.

    If in fact the wording is being misinterpreted, awesome, I look forward to the new system, otherwise it's time to stick a fork in it.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    That would be great argument if they were introducing this "TR" system at the same time as the ED system.

    Yanking the rug out from under us by completely changing the way it works AFTER we put months of playing (and paying) into leveling up our EDs is just screwing over their customers.

    Also, I personally thought the preservation of EDs was a very nice feature. You could work on them a bit here, a bit there, TR, and then work on them some more.

    If I am a Fighter20 and TR, I lose all that FIGHTER XP, and get a Fighter past life, but I don't lose anything Wizard-related at all. If they want to have ED TRing, you should lose only the ONE ED you are TRing, not unrelated ones.
    Without the benefit of a time machine, that's not going to happen.

    I've already invested 21,780,000 XP in capping out all of my destines, so Epic TRing will affect me as much as it will you.

    I don't agree with your comparison, a closer one would be:
    1. You Heroic TR and you lose all of your Heroic XP, you gain a Heroic Past Life Feat.
    2. You do this for every Class and you gain the Completionist Feat at level 3 (which should be auto-granted, but we'll not go into that).

    Compared to what I think most people are in agreement on:
    1. You Epic TR and you lose your Epic XP and any "unbonded" Epic Destiny XP, you gain an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat.
    2. You do this for every Epic Destiny and you gain the Epic Completionist at level 20 (which should be auto-granted).

    That works fine as a system. It's purely optional and the cost is "reasonable".

    For those of us who have their destines capped and want to Epic TR, the best solution is to Epic TR into an Iconic Hero, which will initially start at 15, then be bumped up to 20 or 20+ after gaining 55 ranks, and do this a couple of times to lock in some more Destinies.

    The flaw in the design is having Heroic TR affect your ED at all. The way Heroic TR is at the moment works well, I completely agree with you on that, so there is absolutely no need to screw with something that works.

  13. #193
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Yeah, you can't be genuinely naive enough to actually believe that though, do you? A company has a desire to lose it's customers, it's revenue and be forced to dismiss all it's employees? You know many companies who work that way?
    My father in law is a truck driver for a company, a few years ago his former employer was bought out, the new owner was upfront at least and told them that they were going to drive it into the ground for a tax write off for that year so start looking for new jobs. It's rare, involves some ethically questionable tax forms, but it does happen.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    • Our intention is that players will be able to earn or buy Epic Destiny TR hearts of wood.
    Hopefully earned Epic Destiny TR Hearts will be no more complicated than the current TR Hearts. However, I suspect it will contain some god-awful ingredient to get, such as Chattering Rings, Epic Raid Tokens or Commendations of Heroism or some other hard to get no always dropping item.

    • We’ll continue to add more epic level content so that players have a variety of paths for leveling.
    I'm suggesting once again that adjusting the XP in upper heroic quests (Amarth, House C, MOTU side quests) will be an easy way to padding some XP for both TRs and Epic players. It will also give early Epic players an incentive to play with upper Heroic players, since there's the artificial segregation of the two parties because level 18 and 19 players cannot enter any Epic quests.

    • To engage with Epic Destiny TR, you don’t have to have all destinies maxed out. Character level 28 + one maxed destiny is when you can bond your first destiny.
    Did this just change in the last few hours. Because Glin stated "You must have a maximized, non-bonded ED to complete this (Epic) TR". As can be seen here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    Epic Destiny True Reincarnation


    • Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)
    • Grants an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat
      • Feat based on active, maximized Epic Destiny

    • Karmic Bond -The active ED’s experience is now bonded through each ED True Reincarnation going forward
    • Grants a Class Past Life Feat (same as Heroic TR)
    • You must have a maximized, non-bonded ED to complete this TR
    • Adds 2 build points up to a 38 point build

    So which is it? Is it only a maxed ED? Or is it a maxed ED plus a maxed unbonded ED?

    • We are revisiting XP curves in not only the Heroic levels but also the Epic levels. This would make leveling (and ultimately bonding) a Destiny a faster process compared to the current pace.
    The XP curve better be implemented with the level cap being raised. If both Heroic and Epic XP levels aren't changed when we get the additional Epic levels, it's very poor planning... Kind of like adding Epic Destinies in the game before the new enhancement system and full prestige classes... or adding a mechanism that erases all XP gained for the past year.

    • True Reincarnation has always been about giving up your current life in exchange for increased power in your next life. We are early enough in the design work that we want to also hear ideas from players on what types of destiny feats they’d like to see in their next life in exchange for reincarnating their destinies.
    So the patches that restored XP to EDs after TRing were no WAI?
    Last edited by oradafu; 06-12-2013 at 06:21 PM.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    • True Reincarnation has always been about giving up your current life in exchange for increased power in your next life. We are early enough in the design work that we want to also hear ideas from players on what types of destiny feats they’d like to see in their next life in exchange for reincarnating their destinies.
    You give up YOUR CURRENT LIFE to get the feat. Not the other ten you ground out, too. Or if you give them up, you get those 10 feats, too. Taking the XP from EDs that you don't grant a destiny feat for is wrong.

    You might want to completely scrap the whole "bonding" thing. What is it supposed to add?

  16. #196
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    I haven't read the thread, but I'm going to guess it's full of requests not to erase all ED XP on a TR in exchange for some low level ranks. And yeah... that's crazy.

    Keep the current TR system in place where you don't loose Destiny XP. Then ad an epic system that erases one destiny's XP at a time (not all of them) then you have to regrind it at an increased cost like current heroic TR.

    ALSO - (!!!)
    **** do something about repeat penalties when you do this ****

    Maybe just make it reset each weak like ransack.
    Gildus, Sabathiel, Einion, Yhvain

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  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    You give up YOUR CURRENT LIFE to get the feat. Not the other ten you ground out, too. Or if you give them up, you get those 10 feats, too. Taking the XP from EDs that you don't grant a destiny feat for is wrong.

    You might want to completely scrap the whole "bonding" thing. What is it supposed to add?
    What is it suppose to add? Additional grind and extending the game artificially with no additional content. Much like the current TR system, but much, much worse.

  18. #198
    Community Member cyreme's Avatar
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    Default Trying not to freak out

    Trying to be logical despite thousand screaming monkeys in my head. I doubt that all epic destinies progress will be taken away, although dev's posts fail to clearly state this one way or the other, which I think causes ppl like me to freak out. Here is why I doubt it.
    -unlocked ED spheres - what do you do with them if epic destiny progress is taken away? You can't just re-lock them. Ppl bought keys of destiny and unlocked them. From the point of view of programming mechanics it makes no sense - too involving. I.e. it is unlikely that destiny spheres will be relocked. Consequently, it is unlikely that ED lvls needed to unlock them will be removed also. Think about it. This calms me down a little. Hope it helps someone else.
    cyreme-1 (15/5 arti/rogue), completionist/epic completionist trickster, survivalist, master trapper, master crafter, Qualingor (lvl 28 healer cleric), Narukan (lvl 28 barbie), Kaligga (lvl 28 rogue/pally/arti mix), BingCrosby (lvl 28 15/5 arti/rogue), Madbombah (lvl 28 drow lock), Swasher (lvl 25 bard), Mrglass (lvl 23 lock/pally), Tolmar (lvl 25 pally).

  19. #199
    Community Member merentha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cryohazard View Post
    My reaction to ED xp getting wiped on TRing:


    The picture made me laugh (it really was worth at least 1000 words). I have to disagree with the reaction as my understanding was that a Heroic TR (levels 1-20) wouldn't wipe ED progress still, but choosing the Epic TR would.

    Those of us who have maxed or near maxed the spheres are the only ones who will 'feel the pain' in comparison to those who have only done one or two Destinies to cap or even a path progression for particular twists.

    I'll feel the pain on my TR since I took time this life to get all his destinies to level 5 for the twist points and that 38 point build and extra past life feats does appeal to me, just maybe not that much after all. I love this game, but it's almost sounding like a job with what this initial write up is saying, but also as so much else Turbine initially releases to us...it very likely could be completely different to what we are assuming.

    Some fun examples: (actually I snipped this and am deciding if I'll edit another post and drop it as a pet peeve under the Monday with Mal thread)

  20. #200
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Default Lock earned fate points.

    I would like to add that if fate points were locked, then the system would work a hell of a lot better. Anything short of that is just going to really **** off a whole lot of otherwise loyal fans of the game.

    Edit: Unless we hear something soon, this may be my last post. 1,337 posts would be a nice number to leave on.
    Last edited by Sonos; 06-12-2013 at 06:39 PM.

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