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  1. #161
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Thanks for all the responses so far everyone. The team will try to address the details as best we can this early in development. Here are a few more clarifications as we’re reviewing your comments:

    • Our intention is that players will be able to earn or buy Epic Destiny TR hearts of wood.
    • We’ll continue to add more epic level content so that players have a variety of paths for leveling.
    • To engage with Epic Destiny TR, you don’t have to have all destinies maxed out. Character level 28 + one maxed destiny is when you can bond your first destiny.
    • We are revisiting XP curves in not only the Heroic levels but also the Epic levels. This would make leveling (and ultimately bonding) a Destiny a faster process compared to the current pace.
    • True Reincarnation has always been about giving up your current life in exchange for increased power in your next life. We are early enough in the design work that we want to also hear ideas from players on what types of destiny feats they’d like to see in their next life in exchange for reincarnating their destinies.

    We are also making balance changes to compensate for the fact that the system goes into higher levels, and we expect that parts of the design summary will seem less harsh once these details are better understood. We’ll be reading discussion in this thread and will continue to post here with more details as we go (such as details regarding Fate Points, Completionist, and the exact effects of turning in your Epic Destiny xp on your new life).
    Giving up ED XP is not acceptable for ANYTHING.

    Keep up with this foolishness and many will never TR again.

    You do not understand your players and you game if you think otherwise.

    This is an Xbox level mistake.

  2. #162
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Thanks for all the responses so far everyone. The team will try to address the details as best we can this early in development. Here are a few more clarifications as we’re reviewing your comments:

    • Our intention is that players will be able to earn or buy Epic Destiny TR hearts of wood.
    • We’ll continue to add more epic level content so that players have a variety of paths for leveling.
    • To engage with Epic Destiny TR, you don’t have to have all destinies maxed out. Character level 28 + one maxed destiny is when you can bond your first destiny.
    • We are revisiting XP curves in not only the Heroic levels but also the Epic levels. This would make leveling (and ultimately bonding) a Destiny a faster process compared to the current pace.
    • True Reincarnation has always been about giving up your current life in exchange for increased power in your next life. We are early enough in the design work that we want to also hear ideas from players on what types of destiny feats they’d like to see in their next life in exchange for reincarnating their destinies.

    We are also making balance changes to compensate for the fact that the system goes into higher levels, and we expect that parts of the design summary will seem less harsh once these details are better understood. We’ll be reading discussion in this thread and will continue to post here with more details as we go (such as details regarding Fate Points, Completionist, and the exact effects of turning in your Epic Destiny xp on your new life).
    If you do not allow those that have farmed (when I say farmed I don't mean ran rusted blades over and over and over when it was giving high XP as some of us TRed maxed a destiny or 2 TRed again etc) Epic Destinies and have more than one capped with others at like at lvl 4 to bond all this and force us to lose this when we do go to bond ONE you are right out bending us forward, spreading out our legs and giving us a big huge kick in the nuts.

    I won't even think of those that put rl cash into pots and what not....

    Dunno how it can be any clearer.

    I mean why not just delete all our toons and make us all start over with first lifers!

    Wouldn't that be grand!!!!!!!
    Last edited by SilkofDrasnia; 06-12-2013 at 05:29 PM.
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  3. #163
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    Default For those of us who have chosen other non-TR playstyles...

    I've played DDO since '09 and have yet to TR. While I admit TRing once or twice to get a few additional points has an appeal to it, I've just seen it as a repeat of the grind, only harder.

    While I appreciate more content to provide alternate levelling paths, please don't forget those of us who have chosen to maximize their playing experience without TRing.

    Or is it the designers intention that everyone follow the TR path? If so, please revisit the Bravery Bonus idea and the experience requirements that bring it about, because the current implementation of Bravery Bonus really sets players apart in the LFM/grouping mechanism.

    If there were some way that TRing required somewhat less extensive experience gain and any TR challenge was provided by something more than just larger experience requirements, I think it would make for a richer, more enjoyable and more attractive playstyle pathway for me and I'm sure for others.

  4. #164
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    I'm not sure how I feel about this yet. I've maxed or nearly maxed all destinys on all of my active toons, and that leaves me way over invested for using ED TR's in the new system. If I were a newish player and knew the rules going in, this could be attractive.

    Sitting with near max destinys on 5 or 6 toons this seems pretty punitive. If I were sitting with one or two max destinies it would look a lot different.

    A couple of points though.

    1: There have been a lot of complaints that we spend all of our time in non-optimal destinies. This changes in the new system, out of the 6+ million XP for a given new ED TR cycle, you will most likely be in your best destiny except for the 1.9 Million it takes to cap the destiny you are going to bond. This will be a dash to 28, not a dash to max your destinies. I'll be loosing sense weakness as a twist on my monk and draconic burst twist on my wizzy for a few cycles, but I'll be running in my best destiny 2/3's of the time now, and in all the tougher content.

    2: The final life grind to get your twists will be considerably easier than the first time around for two reasons. One, you will have 1 or more bonded destinies that do not need to be farmed, and start with the fate points from those destinies. And second, you can grind it exactly the same way you did the first life. In order to reach MAX XP, you will need to be level 26 just like you need to be 23 to max xp today with a cap at 25. At level 26 you get a 10% penalty running impossible demands on hard. A greater Epic Tome of Learning adds 10% to your xp, so they offset. It means running hard instead of normal, but you will be level 26 instead of 23 or 24 and have slightly better gear.

    I'm not fond of the grind here, but it will be pretty much the same grind as the first time I leveled my destinies minus the time to level my bonded destinies.

    I'm not happy that I spent a lot of time maxing destinies on a handful of toons and now I get a few of the easy bubbles off my first TR cycle as a reward. But its not as bad as it sounds.

    One thought I had was that if they make the Epic Advantage level a high water mark, so that a toon that has capped destinies would get a 55 Bubble Head Start on EVERY TR cycle, not just the next one... I'd be a lot less irritated..
    Last edited by Grubbby; 06-12-2013 at 05:14 PM.
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  5. #165
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    Thanks for all this info. It's much to digest.

    I was talking it over with a guildie, and one concern is that as the XP curve is revisited, and it will be easier to TR (Heroic)--it will sort of feel like a kick in the chops to those completionists and multiple TR folks who spent the greater part of a few years doing such.

    It's progress and "moving forward", but it may be prudent to give at least a symbolic reward to those vets and founders whom ground-out the XP and TR'd before this new change takes effect. No, I'm not discounting the boost to VIP XP, the Founder's Helm, Boots, and I do appreciate the exclusive forum avatars.

    Maybe an automatic XP boost if an epic TR is done, or a free "Been Through Death and Back" feat for those who TR'd prior to the change X many times, or those who are current completionists.

    In this way, you then bring new people into a robust system of character development, and you satisfy some of the concerns of those who have been around for years (or the start of it all) by rewarding them with something that is not necessarily game breaking.

    I see myself doing the Epic TRs on my TR/completionist character. It might be cool to put him through the Iconic wringer a few times .

    My other characters may do one or two of these depending on the benefit of the epic past life feats.

    All this of course depends on what the reality of it is...
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  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    • True Reincarnation has always been about giving up your current life in exchange for increased power in your next life. We are early enough in the design work that we want to also hear ideas from players on what types of destiny feats they’d like to see in their next life in exchange for reincarnating their destinies.
    I can actually see that for Epic Destiny TR, you want to get the Destiny TR Bonus you give up your Destiny XP.
    I see absolutely no point in wiping the Destiny Xp on a heroic TR, you give up your heroic life so that should be the only thing altered.

  7. #167
    Community Member Lauf's Avatar
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    It is true that in its core, TRing is about getting a small bonus in exchange for giving up your current life, and while I understand the reasoning behind your suggested course of action, taking things away from players without giving something back hardly seems like the right approach to take.

    if I could recommend a different approach, one that somehow balances what you the devs are trying to do with something that's still fair to the player base, I'd suggest that on an epic TR, the epic destiny that is currently bound, maxed and active would reset, granting the character the appropriate epic destiny past life, without resetting the other destinies.
    that way players would still need to level through epic levels to 28 before a TR, and couldn't get more than 1 ED past life per TR, and yet would not lose their hard earned progress.

    the "would count towards heroic ranks" bonus is s not a worthy compensation, so I would do away with that.

    would this make life easier on players who've maxed out more than 1 destiny? perhaps. but deservedly so. they've worked hard to earn it.

  8. #168
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    Ok, I think this could work IF ALL OF THE ITEMS BELOW were implemented:

    - you grandfathered out all the old grinding by saying that any maxed out ED as of the day U20 hits is automatically bonded
    - unbonded unlocked EDs stay unlocked, even if all the XP itself is lost
    - fate points are not lost on TR or ETR

  9. #169
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    Seems to me that the New Epic TR requires the character to have a "new" maximized Epic Destiny. So if I were a lvl 5 Dreadnaught in the previous life, I'd have maximize a new Epic Destiny to do an Epic TR.

    "Grants a Class Past Life Feat (same as Heroic TR)" I'm pretty sure this was not stated correctly. Taken literally, it would mean that an Epic TR gets a double shot of the same Class Past Life Feat, e.g. If I level up my 28 point build cleric to level 28 and do an Epic TR, my next life has Past Life Cleric twice and an Past Life Epic Cleric Feat. Maybe that's intended, but I suspect that the character in my example is intended to get only 1 Past Life Cleric and 1 Past Life Epic Cleric Feat.

    "Epic Advantage"
    Lame and poorly conceived.
    1) The Return on investment is pathetic. 28 million for little more than 1 million.
    2) Jumping up early levels is bad.

    I like to TR. I TR to try different styles of play and learn other aspects of the game. So I've maxed all the Destinies, when I turn, I gain 55 Heroic ranks, or starting at level 11. That's pretty darned deep in the learning curve. This is a bad idea, because, depriving me of those learning experiences early on means that I can really make a complete futz of my build. People expect you to have some idea of what you're doing by that level.

    Proposed Solution: Turn "Heroic Advantage" into an experience stone worth 1 million experience, bound to character, usable any time between level 1 and level X. Please don't deprive us of the early learning opportunities.


    1. Reincarnation cooldown: Fine with me. I can't grind out a life in 3 days, but more power to those that choose to.
    2. Smoothing the curves: Sure, but I think smoothing the xp rewards from quests makes more sense. It's sad to me that in the area where you have the most to grind 18+ quests are among the least xp efficient.
    3. Giving Iconics access to the reincarnation system: Great.

    How this will impact my gameplay...
    Negatively. I think it's lame to take away Epic Destiny experience after we've gotten used to it, but I'll deal. Not to say I won't be bitter about it since I earned my Epic Destinies without using Rusted Blades. The deal breaker for me is the "Epic Advantage." I suppose I might burn a life "doubling up" to a life that I all ready know fairly well to get rid of Epic Advantage so that I can play my TR lives from the beginning, but that really guts the motivation for me. I like to TR into new things to for want of a better description "be a noob." I like learning the new playstyle. Having to go back and redo a life I've all ready mastered just so I can be a noob on something new seems a high price to pay.

    It's your world, I just help pay for it. But honestly I expect that this "new system" however you ultimately decide to implement it, will have unintended and unexpected errors which will interact with the other errors and changes to once again drive some of us to frustration.

    Was anyone complaining about the TR system? Other than allowing iconics to participate and the lack of good experience quests toward the end?

    Seems to me a solution, bound to cause problems, in search of a problem.

  10. #170
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citzen_Gkar View Post
    Ok, I think this could work IF ALL OF THE ITEMS BELOW were implemented:

    - you grandfathered out all the old grinding by saying that any maxed out ED as of the day U20 hits is automatically bonded
    - unbonded unlocked EDs stay unlocked, even if all the XP itself is lost
    - fate points are not lost on TR or ETR
    This would work, give us a grandfather option, otherwise you're spitting in our faces.

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    You missed the part where all ED is lost if you use a standard TR.
    And that is the crux of the issue that I see if they go ahead with it.

    Heroic TR should be exactly as it is right now, your ED XP is untouched and you gain your Heroic Past Life Feats. No "advantage" or whatever.
    Epic TR you start picking up your Epic Destiny Past Life Feats and you only retain your "bonded" ED Levels. You get the "advantage" of additional ranks based on your total ED Levels when you TR'd.

    I can work with that as a system, it's optional, and it has a cost that you understand from the outset. Wiping out all ED XP on a Heroic TR would be a huge mistake.

    I would be tempted to add to that you can only Epic TR into an Iconic Hero, but that's just me.

    Recalculating Fate Points based on your "current" Destinies each life I don't have an issue with either, I'll just work around it.
    Last edited by Deadlock; 06-12-2013 at 05:23 PM.

  12. #172
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    Overall, this system looks like it has some potential. I, for one, am anxious to hear the details before passing a judgement. However, I would offer a couple suggestions based n what I understand of this and previous comments. Here is the first one. I'll post others as I flesh them out in my mind.

    I understand the "epic advantage" is an attempt to mitigate the loss of destiny xp on epic reincarnation, but I do not think it is enough to counter the legitimate concerns and some of the pointless anger some have expressed here. As I read it, each unbonded epic destiny level will translate into a 1 rank bonus of xp for the new life. The problem here is amounts.
    Example:
    there are 55 available epic destiny levels, totaling 19 million xp. If someone had all destinies maxed and epic tr'ed, that would start them on rank 55, or the end of level 11. On a multi-tr toon, under the current system, this translates into about 1.1 million xp, or about 6% of the xp they lost. Especially with early leveling being so easy compared to later game leveling (I usually go from 1-3 in 30 minutes running only 1 quest- kobolds new ringleader), this is NOT a very big benefit for a huge xp loss.
    Suggestion:
    Make it 2 ranks per epic destiny level xp lost, essentially bringing someone to level 20 immediately on TR if they have all epic destinies maxed. You woudl still be losing close to 80% of the xp you lost, but it would be a bit easier to swallow.
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  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Giving up ED XP is not acceptable for ANYTHING.

    Keep up with this foolishness and many will never TR again.

    You do not understand your players and you game if you think otherwise.

    This is an Xbox level mistake.
    ^ This.

    There's no justification for losing ED xp during heroic TRing, especially not after all this time people have spent on their characters. (Though making the destiny xp loss for heroic xp gain an option is a good idea.)

    On the other hand, for epic TRing, the only way I could see losing ED xp as justifiable is if earned Fate Points stuck around, with the max Fate Points allowed increasing to the point where we can get 4/4/4 in twists and get one more Point every epic TR.
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  14. #174
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    Awful.

    Add to the game, stop screwing up what you have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Thanks for all the responses so far everyone. The team will try to address the details as best we can this early in development. [...]
    • True Reincarnation has always been about giving up your current life in exchange for increased power in your next life. We are early enough in the design work that we want to also hear ideas from players on what types of destiny feats they’d like to see in their next life in exchange for reincarnating their destinies.
    True. What is more to gain when you have gained every level and every destiny and every twist? D&D is unlimited and I think DDO should be.

    As for destiny feats, here are some of my ideas:

    Past Life: Magister: You were a Magister in an epic past life. You occasionally find yourself the urge to have acquired more information from good arcane spell books. You now have +5 DC, +5 Spell Penetration, +50 Negative Spell Power and have learnt the Epic Spell Seed: Dispel

    Past Life: Draconic Incarnation: You were a Draconic Incarnate in an epic past life. You occasionally find yourself dreaming of giving bad breath to others. You now have +50 base Spell Power from of the color of your draconic heritage and also acquired the Epic Spell Seed: Energy

    Past Life: Fate Singer:You were a Fate Singer in an epic past life. You occasionally find yourselves inspiring people to do the best in their jobs. You now have +50 Sonic Spell Power and all your crowd control spells and songs are double(?) in length. (*spells stack with extend metamagic feat)

    Past Life: Shadowdancer:You were a Shadowdancer in an epic past life. People have a hard to time keep track of you and instead found your shadows. You now have an additional +5 to your Assassinate DC; and can cast the special Shadow Training IV dimension door 5 times per rest (without using spell points), 3 minutes cool down.

    Past Life: Grandmaster of Flowers:You were a Grandmaster of Flowers in an epic past life. You were a Ki Master and occasionally you find yourselves aware of the free flow of Ki in your body. You now have +50 base Force Spell Power and +50 additional Ki upon resting.

    Past Life: Exalted Angel:You were an exalted angel in an epic past life. You occasionally found yourselves judging and smiting evil. You now have +50 base Light Spell Power and also acquired the Epic Spell Seed: Heal.

    Past Life: Unyielding Sentinel:You were an unyielding sentinel in an epic past life. You occasionally dream of providing stunts and shield other people from hurting. You now have +50 Positive Spell Power and also acquired the Epic Spell Seed: Ward.

    Past Life: Legendary Dreadnought:You were a legendary dreadnought in an epic past life. You occasionally dream of blitzing through a full dungeon leaving a bloody trail. You now have +5 Tactical DC to your tactical skills (stun, trip, sunder) and +5 damage with your melee weapons

    Past Life: Shiradi Champion:You were a Shiradi Champion in an epic past life. You thought you were a fey Eladrin in your dreams and excel in ranged attacks. You gained +5 ranged damage and +5 untyped spell damage per cast. Additionally, you gained the Epic Spell Seed: Reflect.

    Past Life: Fury of the Wild:You were a barbaric wild folk in an epic past life. You occasionally found yourselves behave wildly and dream about masters of pain delivery and reception. Every hit you inflict a shaken effect and enemies have a random 10%(?) chance of frozen in place in awe of your prowess.

    Past Life: Primal Avatar:You were a primal avatar in an epic past life. You occasionally found yourselves have the urge to play around with fury animals and imagined yourselves being wrapped in green natural goodness. Any pets, summons, hireling you have 15% alacrity and +5 levels. You also gained the Epic Spell Seed: Life.

    We are also making balance changes to compensate for the fact that the system goes into higher levels, and we expect that parts of the design summary will seem less harsh once these details are better understood. We’ll be reading discussion in this thread and will continue to post here with more details as we go (such as details regarding Fate Points, Completionist, and the exact effects of turning in your Epic Destiny xp on your new life).
    Epic Destiny Completionist: +2 to every skills, Ability (stat points), DR, PRR, Doublestrike, Spell Power that does not require a feat like regular heroic completionist and is an automatic built-in feat once the conditions are met. Your TR wings are now golden in color rather than white for regular TR people. Requires: Every Bond Epic Destiny Past Life. New Destinies when released will automatically turned off Epic Destiny Completionist from your feats list.

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  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Thanks for all the responses so far everyone. The team will try to address the details as best we can this early in development. Here are a few more clarifications as we’re reviewing your comments:

    • Our intention is that players will be able to earn or buy Epic Destiny TR hearts of wood.
    • We’ll continue to add more epic level content so that players have a variety of paths for leveling.
    • To engage with Epic Destiny TR, you don’t have to have all destinies maxed out. Character level 28 + one maxed destiny is when you can bond your first destiny.
    • We are revisiting XP curves in not only the Heroic levels but also the Epic levels. This would make leveling (and ultimately bonding) a Destiny a faster process compared to the current pace.
    • True Reincarnation has always been about giving up your current life in exchange for increased power in your next life. We are early enough in the design work that we want to also hear ideas from players on what types of destiny feats they’d like to see in their next life in exchange for reincarnating their destinies.

    We are also making balance changes to compensate for the fact that the system goes into higher levels, and we expect that parts of the design summary will seem less harsh once these details are better understood. We’ll be reading discussion in this thread and will continue to post here with more details as we go (such as details regarding Fate Points, Completionist, and the exact effects of turning in your Epic Destiny xp on your new life).
    In my main character, I maxed out every epic destiny. Does this mean when I do epic TR I effectively get no benefit except for my current destiny? I thought if I epic TR'd I would get credit for every destiny I maxed out rather than just one.

    I think you should revisit that aspect of the epic TR. It's fine starting over with no ED experience, I just want to get credit for the epic destinies I already capped out.

    Overall the system looks fun, but it seems like those of that maxed our destinies won't get any benefit for doing so.
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  17. #177
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    For what it's worth there are some great ideas in this thread, but loosing all my ED xp would make me as well as my guild leave (lv 90+ guild on thelanis, The Ministry of Destruction) and we are one of the most active guilds out there.

    I think your idea has some potential i.e. Epic Past Lives and what not, but man... we spent countless hours working on these characters, and it's very frustrating to loose everything we worked for.
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  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Glin,

    This month you need to roll up a character on a live server, maybe a bladeforged to make it quicker, play the game and grind a full set of ed's. Then imagine losing all that. This shows a severe disconnect between your players and the producers.
    I think that disconnect happened along time ago. I have tried to get several people I know that play MMO's to join this game, but all have come up with the same answer in the end, NOBODY who has TR'd multiple times wants to play with new players. Sadly, this is true, because I am one of those people who don't want new players in my groups, because their is a bigger chance of failure than success with players who haven't done the grind, and don't understand their limitations. I put up LFM's and write in the description "know what con means" and then accept players, at level 15-18 with less than 200 health, and I just kick them from the group.. Why would I want to waste my time doing the quest with a player I know is going to die, the first fight we get into? If the Producers/Developers were more in tune with the actual game play they would notice that the actual number of LFM's up decreases on a monthly basis, to where there are times when I log in, there are NO groups looking for more players, of the level range of my characters.

    I am a multiple TR, VIP member who thinks that almost everything in the original post is a bad idea.

    Changes happen to the game, its what MMO's do, some changes are good, some not always so. But ED EXP was set up with the intent, that when you TR you would not lose your ED EXP, if it had been set up originally to wipe EXP when you TR, nobody would have spent the time doing the grind, if they knew that they would lose it, when they TR.

    A very simple solution would be to make a Heroic TR not effect your ED EXP, and when you do a Epic TR, then you start a level 20, lose all your ED EXP and grind up to 28 again. You wouldn't effect your completionist status, because EPIC levels don't effect your character class anyway. Those players who want to do the grind from 20-28 multiple times to gain the PL Feats from ED's, will be able to do so. It would still take a bit of time, as the exp needed to go from 20-28 will far exceed what is needed to go from 1-20 even as a multiple TR.

    The goal of any MMO is to make money. Whether its a FTP or PTP the concept is the same, make money. In DDO it seems to me that the players who are going to spend the most money in the game are those that TR their characters, because the longer you play, the more likely you are to spend money. I saw NOTHING in the original post that seemed like a benefit for those that are willing to TR over and over and over and over. I took a break from the TR Grind, and ground out the exp in my ED's so that when my character hit level 20, I could use the ED's the way i wanted to, to learn that if i continue to TR I will have to grind out that EXP all over, is frustrating and saddening.

    I have to say that at this point, I am glad that I did not pre-order the new expansion, because if update 20 is a hint of things to come, then I don't see much of a future in this game.

    Losing 21 million exp, to gain 55 heroic ranks, is the most absurd thing that I have seen any developer in any MMO that I have ever played suggest.

  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Glin,

    This month you need to roll up a character on a live server, maybe a bladeforged to make it quicker, play the game and grind a full set of ed's. Then imagine losing all that. This shows a severe disconnect between your players and the producers.
    That's not really the issue though. At the moment, we have ED's capped or we don't and we have maximum Fate Points or we don't. There's nothing saying that you have to cap every destiny, I have on a couple of my guys and deliberately not on others.

    Choosing to Epic TR and losing your unbonded destinies I don't have an issue with, it's a choice you can exercise or not.

    Doing a Heroic TR and losing your unbonded destinies that is a ridiculously bad idea. My main is a triple completionist so I don't need anything from Heroic TRing, and even I can see how bad an idea this is.

    Having the two separate TR systems complimenting one another is a great addition for people who are finished with the TRing and choose to do some Epic TRing.

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    hanges happen to the game, its what MMO's do, some changes are good, some not always so. But ED EXP was set up with the intent, that when you TR you would not lose your ED EXP, if it had been set up originally to wipe EXP when you TR, nobody would have spent the time doing the grind, if they knew that they would lose it, when they TR.
    They originally wanted destiny xp to go back to zero when TRing. Due to everyone *****ing it was changed.
    ME BARB, ME SMA-ok I stand here with pretty blue lines around me. ok I take damage. ok bye.

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