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  1. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I think that is there goal. I don't think Turbine's happy that the Motu and FR stuff isn't played as much because to be quite honest TRing is more fun. This might be the poison pill for TR.
    I dunno, seems unlikely. People on the hamster wheel = more revenue; I think Turbine knows that TR'ing is a revenue generator for them, much more so than a specific content pack?

    Here's the million-dollar question for me: will losing ED xp result in loss of unlocked twist slots? If I get to keep all fate points (or potentially earn even more than the current max) by re-leveling destinies, I might consider it. That potentially cuts out a *lot* of the re-grind; usually only two or three of the EDs are ones I *actually* care about; all the others I'm leveling (and being annoyed about being in, most of the time) purely to generate fate points for twists.

    I'll take my Pale Master as an example. The destinies I'm actually using, between active use and twists, are DI, Magister, and Shiradi. If I "lock in" Shiradi, keep all my twist slots as they stand, and start leveling up DI/Magister again at 20, earning *more* fate points to the point where I can twist 4/4/4, I'm interested. If all fate points/slots are lost, too, then I'm out, and never TR'ing.
    The Brotherhood of BYOH--Thelanis: Charged, WF Artificer; Venomshade, Half-Elf Monk; Poxs, Fist of an Angry God; Crash, Pale Monkster

  2. #122
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    Default Wow

    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    I am excited to start sharing our plans for the future of the Reincarnation system! Later this year (targeting Update 20) we look forward to introducing two new TR destinations, Epic Destiny True Reincarnation and Iconic True Reincarnation. We’ve got some minor improvements involving Lesser and Greater Reincarnation in store, as well.


    We’ve seen a number of questions and discussions about TR, Iconics, and the TR / end-game gap. For the expansion pack, we are focused on ensuring that the new races are fun and playable, the content is fun and beautiful, and that the enhancement system changes launch as expected! With that, we plan to build out the TR system later in the year. The team is also taking the time to get your early feedback as the designers and engineers lock down feature plans. - How does this fit (or change) your playstyle? Read on for details, then let us know!

    A few goals for Epic Destiny TR:


    • Extend Reincarnation system to allow for 38-point builds
    • Include Epic Destinies in the TR cycle (with Epic Destiny Past Life Feats)
    • Reward you for additional investment in Epic Destinies (with starting ranks after TR)
    • Adjust the XP curve in Epic levels for multi-life TR to avoid the dramatic escalating grind
    • Include Iconics in the TR cycle (with Iconic Past Life Feats)
    • Allow you to TR into and out of Iconics (if you own Iconics)


    How does this system look in practice?

    Heroic True Reincarnation


    • Heroic TR remains primarily unchanged at level 20 or above
    • Grants a Class Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
    • Adds 2 build points up to a 36 point build
    • Benefits from the Epic Advantage if you earn Epic Destinies before TR (below)


    Epic Destiny True Reincarnation


    • Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)
    • Grants an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat
      • Feat based on active, maximized Epic Destiny

    • Karmic Bond -The active ED’s experience is now bonded through each ED True Reincarnation going forward
    • Grants a Class Past Life Feat (same as Heroic TR)
    • You must have a maximized, non-bonded ED to complete this TR
    • Adds 2 build points up to a 38 point build


    Epic Advantage


    With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)

    Iconic True Reincarnation

    That’s right; Iconics will have their own form of True Reincarnation, earning their own unique set of past-life feats. You will also be able to TR from any character into an Iconic, which begins at level 15, like normal. Epic Advantage also works on both ends, as well, transferring ED XP earned in your Iconic life, and, if you TR into an Iconic, adding XP on top of your level 15 starting XP.Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)


    • Grants an Iconic Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
    • Adds 2 build points up a 36 point build
    • Earns ranks from Epic Advantage


    What else?

    Here are some changes we’re currently exploring:


    • Reincarnation cooldown timer reduced to 3 days.
    • Reincarnation XP curves smoothed to ease penalties for multiple lives.
    • Lesser Reincarnation will allow a Heroic character to reincarnate as a Champion. Greater Reincarnation will no longer be sold, in favor of an improved Lesser Reincarnation.
    • Iconic characters will be able to Lesser Reincarnate


    We are eager to begin production on this system and appreciate the many players that are eager to see us fulfill the end game potential that the TR system presents. With these changes we are also keeping a long-term view for TR, such as how to expand the Epic Destiny system and continue to support level cap growth in the future.


    Our sincere intentions are to provide these features to you, and the DDO community at large. We invite you response to these details and thank you for your support and fortitude while we roll these changes out in support of this year’s expansion pack. The team is thrilled that DDO continues to grow, innovate, and provide a great D&D experience.
    I for one think that instead of taking away the destiny xp we already farmed maybe u should just only be alowed to bond 1 destiny per tr and then u get back to lvl 28 and u can bond another 1 of ur destinies that u already earned and tr again without loosing any destinies u previously farmed otherwise the amount of grinding needed is a fail me and alot of people that have grinded several lives without the use of xp stones will defenitly not be happy

  3. #123
    Community Member Aliss7's Avatar
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    If the new Epic TR'ing does not take into account the existing ED XP you've already earned, then it's game over. No due over. No add quarter to continue. It's over. Turn off the lights and close the door.

  4. #124
    Community Member Certon's Avatar
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    Wait a second. You mean, you offered me an expansion pack, along with a tempting bonus to buy the add-on stuff to get my owlbear hireling, and I bought it too. Then, before the expansion pack comes out, you DEMOLISH everything I love about DDO?

    I want my money back.

    Bait and switch.

  5. #125
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cforce View Post
    I dunno, seems unlikely. People on the hamster wheel = more revenue; I think Turbine knows that TR'ing is a revenue generator for them, much more so than a specific content pack?

    .
    We're dealing with a bunch of divas who think "their" content is better than what came before.

    I have 4 toons who are max ED. They will never be TR'd again. I like leveling and they don't have that many PLs so that's gotta be at least 10 hearts in a year that I won't buy (I buy most in the DDO store, cash easier to come by than tokens). I know I'm not the only one. No hearts, not XP pots, nothing for me to spend money on.

    TRing IS the end-game of DDO. it's the lifeblood. Doing anything that discourages this is suicide.

  6. #126
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    They need to either change it so when you TR you do not lose your destiny xp OR let people bond more than one destiny when they TR.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    Insulting the development team is not allowed.
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    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

  7. #127
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Certon View Post
    Wait a second. You mean, you offered me an expansion pack, along with a tempting bonus to buy the add-on stuff to get my owlbear hireling, and I bought it too. Then, before the expansion pack comes out, you DEMOLISH everything I love about DDO?

    I want my money back.

    Bait and switch.
    Same here, unless they change this they might as well close the servers, it'll be the same thing in the end, but with a flat out server closure they might keep some good will for whatever games they produce in the future.

  8. #128
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    Epic Advantage: Ummm. OK. It's not the lowlevel that's a problem with TRs, but OK, free xp is free.

    38 point builds: Awesome, sounds great.

    ED past life feats: Cool, sounds interesting!

    Iconic TR: Sounds interesting!

    Reduced timer: Eh, fine I guess. Never an issue for me.

    XP curves smoothed: Sounds promising, hopefully this'll make TR less of a grind.

    "(Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)"
    ....

    Say what??
    All my 8 capped EDs on donk will go poof if I TR? Really? Whoever thought this would be a good idea??
    It's definitely an N-word.

  9. #129
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    Turbine you got it wrong.
    All destenies but the one you want to TR in are locked at the current state. In order to TR any ED you must take an Epic TR which will set you back to lvl 20.
    You can earn XP for EDs that are not maxed out during this process, in order to make another ETR the TRed Desteny must be maxed out.

    Right now i want my preordered money back, i dont want it wasted on such a bad idea. Pls get some creative personal that is locked down in an assylum for life
    Thelanis: Errtu-1, Cherubael, Nararian, Seyria, Yarrrkk, Apothecarius, Tarcus-1, Kheradruakh, Evesor, Experimentum

  10. #130
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    I know there will be people who will argue this point (as they have mastered the TR system) but it is the truth even if they don't want to admit it.

    The current TR system is broken and used only by power gamers who have mastered the system.

    What you intended for TR:
    1. Players will relevel toons increasing number of low level players and groups.
    2. Current players get added power as an incentive.
    3. New players to DDO won't leave the game as now they will have. People to group with!

    What happened to TR:
    1. XP penalty makes TR such a grind people will only do certain quests avoiding all others.
    2. Players will max elite streak and not group with new players who haven't mastered the TR grind.
    3. TR feats went from adding power to characters so they could be more broadly focused to being required and having epic content balanced on having multiple past lives (example: cast DCs and SR)
    4. New players still have no one to group with and vets are even less willing to help them as TR is a massive XP grind.


    What you need to do:
    1. Remove TR increased XP costs
    2. Increase first time Xp bonuses by double to triple, make people WANT to run every quest at least once
    3. Add bonus Xprts. For grouping with new players, maybe 25% make people want new accounts in there group, will this also be exploited? Yes, but what isn't?
    4. Make the completionist feat FREE!!!!
    5. Make tring fun and not a carefully planned grind with select quests and guildes!




    P.S. I worked my nay nays off maxing out every ED, i expect a PL feat for ALL of them when epic TR!
    Making DDO a better game 1 post at a time!

    Triple EVERYTHING Completionist= Heroic 39/39, Iconic 12/12, Epic 36/36

  11. #131
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    A few thoughts after reading this over a bit more.

    Is it possible to perhaps bond an entire sphere each life instead of just one destiny? We will be grinding about 3 destinies worth of xp per life anyway. Doing a EDTR once per sphere is significantly less grind, but being able to keep 2 or 3 full destinies right off the start is a bit less "crushing" than just losing it all in one shot.

    Could it be possible to separate heroic TR from the ED wipe? Please keep heroic as it is now. Making changes that discourage heroic TR seems a bit backwards. I don't think anyone wants to lose all their destiny xp (without even getting to bond a single one) with a heroic TR. I'd hate to be the casual player that doesn't read the notes on that before pulling the trigger. New elements for a new type of TR is something to be explored. Changing existing TR mechanics is going to annoy a lot of players.
    Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen

  12. #132

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    My first reading screams EPIC FAIL, on a level of "shut down the servers and turn off the lights, the game is over."

    Possible ways this could be salvaged:

    1) As mentioned a few times, you lose all destiny xp (except bonded destinies) but retain all fate points, and any new destiny grinding adds more fate points to that total. This wouldn't just be a save, it would be a total win. None of the current destiny xp people have spent so many hours grinding (almost purely for the fate points) would be wasted in such a system.

    2) Plans are scrapped for heroic tr, leaving it the same as it is now. Do a heroic tr and you don't lose any destiny xp and you also don't get any epic advantage or epic past life.

    3) When the change is first rolled out to live, all capped destinies on existing character get a special "semi-bonded" flag. Semi-bonded destinies do not get lost on tr, but since they aren't fully bonded you don't get epic past lives for them. You have to actually bond them to get that.

    4) This possibility would be both the most and least painful option: You lose all destiny xp on any TR, just like Glin says in the OP, but going forward you can put your epic xp to any unlocked destiny while keeping your preferred destiny active. This would be the most painful in that you'd have to regrind all the destiny xp you already ground out, but it would be the least painful because you could finally be having fun playing your real character while grinding out destinies.

    Any of these 4 solutions would fix the EPIC FAIL I see in the OP, and I honestly don't know which one I'd prefer. I think 2) is my least favorite, and though it would be a grievous injury to lose all my destiny xp on all my alts I think 4) would be my favorite. But 1) looks really, really nice too. 3) is kludgy but probably the most fair way to handle it.

  13. #133
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Keep in mind . . . this is not the first time Turbine's presented an idea this insanely stupid that it keeps us distracted from yet another dumb change that's allowed to slip by.

    Give us some details about this horrible Epic TR idea . . . right when the ENH pass beta is about to hit . . . let the horrible EHN pass slip right past the golly.

    I'd say "well played" but it's just too obvious.
    Nah, it's not a smoke screen, we already have all our claws, fangs, and other sharp pointy things deep into the Enhanc... erm NGE Pass and are waiting for the next twitch from it to tighten the grip.
    It's just that weill have to go Takhisis and grow several heads because we are going to have to be able to bite at several things at the same time

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We're dealing with a bunch of divas who think "their" content is better than what came before.

    I have 4 toons who are max ED. They will never be TR'd again. I like leveling and they don't have that many PLs so that's gotta be at least 10 hearts in a year that I won't buy (I buy most in the DDO store, cash easier to come by than tokens). I know I'm not the only one. No hearts, not XP pots, nothing for me to spend money on.

    TRing IS the end-game of DDO. it's the lifeblood. Doing anything that discourages this is suicide.
    Not a big TR fan, but that's how I see things from my side : people were spending money in XP Pot and eventually hearts for TR... with the new system, people will stop TRing, thus stop spending money on XP Pot and hearts.
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  14. #134
    Community Member Tuffmann's Avatar
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    I am a grinder, and dont mind some grind, i grinded out a completionist before the BB,boxes, and tome of learning.

    and it was bareable.

    What I hated was grinding out the ED's but ya i did it, even tho it was a whole lot faster then getting my completionist.
    It was horrible boreing.....and unfun

    Do I want to do that again? NO!
    Aceita - 22 life Monk Completionist -

  15. #135
    Community Member Cyndder's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Let me be honest

    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    I am excited to start sharing our plans for the future of the Reincarnation system! Later this year (targeting Update 20) we look forward to introducing two new TR destinations, Epic Destiny True Reincarnation and Iconic True Reincarnation. We’ve got some minor improvements involving Lesser and Greater Reincarnation in store, as well.


    We’ve seen a number of questions and discussions about TR, Iconics, and the TR / end-game gap. For the expansion pack, we are focused on ensuring that the new races are fun and playable, the content is fun and beautiful, and that the enhancement system changes launch as expected! With that, we plan to build out the TR system later in the year. The team is also taking the time to get your early feedback as the designers and engineers lock down feature plans. - How does this fit (or change) your playstyle? Read on for details, then let us know!

    A few goals for Epic Destiny TR:


    • Extend Reincarnation system to allow for 38-point builds
    • Include Epic Destinies in the TR cycle (with Epic Destiny Past Life Feats)
    • Reward you for additional investment in Epic Destinies (with starting ranks after TR)
    • Adjust the XP curve in Epic levels for multi-life TR to avoid the dramatic escalating grind
    • Include Iconics in the TR cycle (with Iconic Past Life Feats)
    • Allow you to TR into and out of Iconics (if you own Iconics)


    How does this system look in practice?

    Heroic True Reincarnation


    • Heroic TR remains primarily unchanged at level 20 or above
    • Grants a Class Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
    • Adds 2 build points up to a 36 point build
    • Benefits from the Epic Advantage if you earn Epic Destinies before TR (below)


    Epic Destiny True Reincarnation


    • Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)
    • Grants an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat
      • Feat based on active, maximized Epic Destiny

    • Karmic Bond -The active ED’s experience is now bonded through each ED True Reincarnation going forward
    • Grants a Class Past Life Feat (same as Heroic TR)
    • You must have a maximized, non-bonded ED to complete this TR
    • Adds 2 build points up to a 38 point build


    Epic Advantage


    With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)

    Iconic True Reincarnation

    That’s right; Iconics will have their own form of True Reincarnation, earning their own unique set of past-life feats. You will also be able to TR from any character into an Iconic, which begins at level 15, like normal. Epic Advantage also works on both ends, as well, transferring ED XP earned in your Iconic life, and, if you TR into an Iconic, adding XP on top of your level 15 starting XP.Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)


    • Grants an Iconic Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
    • Adds 2 build points up a 36 point build
    • Earns ranks from Epic Advantage


    What else?

    Here are some changes we’re currently exploring:


    • Reincarnation cooldown timer reduced to 3 days.
    • Reincarnation XP curves smoothed to ease penalties for multiple lives.
    • Lesser Reincarnation will allow a Heroic character to reincarnate as a Champion. Greater Reincarnation will no longer be sold, in favor of an improved Lesser Reincarnation.
    • Iconic characters will be able to Lesser Reincarnate


    We are eager to begin production on this system and appreciate the many players that are eager to see us fulfill the end game potential that the TR system presents. With these changes we are also keeping a long-term view for TR, such as how to expand the Epic Destiny system and continue to support level cap growth in the future.


    Our sincere intentions are to provide these features to you, and the DDO community at large. We invite you response to these details and thank you for your support and fortitude while we roll these changes out in support of this year’s expansion pack. The team is thrilled that DDO continues to grow, innovate, and provide a great D&D experience.
    I am excited to start sharing our plans for the future of the Reincarnation system! <<I don't know why
    you are excited...anxious...nervous..awaiting the backlash gets you excited then ok.

    How does this fit (or change) your playstyle? Read on for details, then let us know!<< Ok, based upon this announcement a lot of my existing toons will advance to level 28 and NEVER TR again. This would essentially "retire at level 28" 20+ existing toons.

    I'd likely build 1 iconic, run 12 lives as an iconic 3 in each and work one epic destiny each life...THEN turn it into a completionist (one life of each) with that toon. So this would force me to focus on just one toon and doing reruns of existing content. Once I've done that I'd probably be done with DDO. (VIP Member since March of 2006)

    In short it will have some replay value for about 6-9 months after you do it--yes if it came down to it I could grind the one toon to completionist in about that time with the changes you are talking about.

    The questions you've left out is what is this going to do to guilds and the existing player base. Most players I've talked to have been grinding ED awaiting new content are up in arms...I'd expect 20-30% (modestly) in your hard-core gamer base. With the guild decay system I'd see a lot of new small 6 man guilds forming for the remaining hardcore gamers who are willing to take this disaster of a plan you proposed here--given the limited amount of data provided. So your larger guilds will fold or decay away with the loss to the player base.

    So, based upon your announcement I'd likely move away from renewing my annual subscription for a year and move to a six month plan when it comes up latter this year...if that.

    Our sincere intentions are to provide these features to you, and the DDO community at large.<< I would like to ask that you stop referring to wiping out epic destines on TR's as a 'feature'. You would have been better off completely revamping the ED system completely than stripping abilities from users and trying to tell us you'll love grinding it up again without any changes to the ED system...other than loosing your existing efforts.
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  16. #136
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    Eh you know the epic TR doesn't sound too bad, but the heroic TR should be unchanged, or even better give the people a choice to either keep the destiny levels or gain heroic ranks.
    Wiping the destiny xp on the heroic TR sounds like a REALLY bad idea.

  17. #137
    Community Member knightgf's Avatar
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    So, all this bashing and hate is because of the loss of...epic destinies? I shake my head at you people.

    Though I will agree that more information would be nice, such as the clarity of various topics and what past life feats we gain.
    Here's a riddle for you: What do you call people who play the game for only a day and apparently know everything?

  18. #138
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Glin,

    This month you need to roll up a character on a live server, maybe a bladeforged to make it quicker, play the game and grind a full set of ed's. Then imagine losing all that. This shows a severe disconnect between your players and the producers.

  19. #139
    Community Member Marewood's Avatar
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    Default Epic fail

    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    Snip...
    (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)
    Snip
    How far do you guys think you can push it?

    If that goes live I am out.

    Addendum:

    I just don't get it. Why are you guys trying so hard to **** off your remaining playerbase? I really don't get it.
    Last edited by Marewood; 06-12-2013 at 04:29 PM.

  20. #140
    Senior Developer Piloto's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the responses so far everyone. The team will try to address the details as best we can this early in development. Here are a few more clarifications as we’re reviewing your comments:

    • Our intention is that players will be able to earn or buy Epic Destiny TR hearts of wood.
    • We’ll continue to add more epic level content so that players have a variety of paths for leveling.
    • To engage with Epic Destiny TR, you don’t have to have all destinies maxed out. Character level 28 + one maxed destiny is when you can bond your first destiny.
    • We are revisiting XP curves in not only the Heroic levels but also the Epic levels. This would make leveling (and ultimately bonding) a Destiny a faster process compared to the current pace.
    • True Reincarnation has always been about giving up your current life in exchange for increased power in your next life. We are early enough in the design work that we want to also hear ideas from players on what types of destiny feats they’d like to see in their next life in exchange for reincarnating their destinies.

    We are also making balance changes to compensate for the fact that the system goes into higher levels, and we expect that parts of the design summary will seem less harsh once these details are better understood. We’ll be reading discussion in this thread and will continue to post here with more details as we go (such as details regarding Fate Points, Completionist, and the exact effects of turning in your Epic Destiny xp on your new life).

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