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  1. #1
    DDO Senior Producer Glin's Avatar
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    Default Epic Level & Iconic TR

    I am excited to start sharing our plans for the future of the Reincarnation system! Later this year (targeting Update 20) we look forward to introducing two new TR destinations, Epic Destiny True Reincarnation and Iconic True Reincarnation. We’ve got some minor improvements involving Lesser and Greater Reincarnation in store, as well.


    We’ve seen a number of questions and discussions about TR, Iconics, and the TR / end-game gap. For the expansion pack, we are focused on ensuring that the new races are fun and playable, the content is fun and beautiful, and that the enhancement system changes launch as expected! With that, we plan to build out the TR system later in the year. The team is also taking the time to get your early feedback as the designers and engineers lock down feature plans. - How does this fit (or change) your playstyle? Read on for details, then let us know!

    A few goals for Epic Destiny TR:


    • Extend Reincarnation system to allow for 38-point builds
    • Include Epic Destinies in the TR cycle (with Epic Destiny Past Life Feats)
    • Reward you for additional investment in Epic Destinies (with starting ranks after TR)
    • Adjust the XP curve in Epic levels for multi-life TR to avoid the dramatic escalating grind
    • Include Iconics in the TR cycle (with Iconic Past Life Feats)
    • Allow you to TR into and out of Iconics (if you own Iconics)


    How does this system look in practice?

    Heroic True Reincarnation


    • Heroic TR remains primarily unchanged at level 20 or above
    • Grants a Class Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
    • Adds 2 build points up to a 36 point build
    • Benefits from the Epic Advantage if you earn Epic Destinies before TR (below)


    Epic Destiny True Reincarnation


    • Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)
    • Grants an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat
      • Feat based on active, maximized Epic Destiny

    • Karmic Bond -The active ED’s experience is now bonded through each ED True Reincarnation going forward
    • Grants a Class Past Life Feat (same as Heroic TR)
    • You must have a maximized, non-bonded ED to complete this TR
    • Adds 2 build points up to a 38 point build


    Epic Advantage


    With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)

    Iconic True Reincarnation

    That’s right; Iconics will have their own form of True Reincarnation, earning their own unique set of past-life feats. You will also be able to TR from any character into an Iconic, which begins at level 15, like normal. Epic Advantage also works on both ends, as well, transferring ED XP earned in your Iconic life, and, if you TR into an Iconic, adding XP on top of your level 15 starting XP.Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)


    • Grants an Iconic Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
    • Adds 2 build points up a 36 point build
    • Earns ranks from Epic Advantage


    What else?

    Here are some changes we’re currently exploring:


    • Reincarnation cooldown timer reduced to 3 days.
    • Reincarnation XP curves smoothed to ease penalties for multiple lives.
    • Lesser Reincarnation will allow a Heroic character to reincarnate as a Champion. Greater Reincarnation will no longer be sold, in favor of an improved Lesser Reincarnation.
    • Iconic characters will be able to Lesser Reincarnate


    We are eager to begin production on this system and appreciate the many players that are eager to see us fulfill the end game potential that the TR system presents. With these changes we are also keeping a long-term view for TR, such as how to expand the Epic Destiny system and continue to support level cap growth in the future.


    Our sincere intentions are to provide these features to you, and the DDO community at large. We invite you response to these details and thank you for your support and fortitude while we roll these changes out in support of this year’s expansion pack. The team is thrilled that DDO continues to grow, innovate, and provide a great D&D experience.
    Last edited by Cordovan; 06-12-2013 at 01:50 PM.
    ---------------
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  2. #2
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Complete failure, I'd never ever want to grind out all my ed's again and it sounds like I'd only be able to bond one per tr. This means I'd have to regrind the entire mess of xp out without the nice easy farm of id and rusted blades. Your proposal sounds like it completely kills tr'ing.

  3. #3
    The Front Side Gratch's Avatar
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    Wow... that's a lot of info. Any chance of a few examples?
    If a Legend FVS20/L28 all destinies maxed set with Exalted does an ED TR... do they restart as:
    38 pts, add FVS Past Life Feat, add Exalted Past Life Feat and they get heroic XP equal to 11x5 ED ranks... so rank 55 heroic? Or did I misread?

    Doesn't look like it changes the heroic completionist feat at all.

    So there's now an iconic past life heroic autogrant feat for TR'ing an iconic and an ED past life epic autogrant feat for TR'ing an epic? Does the ED feat stack 3x as well? Need to reread all this.
    Last edited by Gratch; 06-12-2013 at 01:59 PM.
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    DO NOT DO THIS. We are investigating.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Complete failure, I'd never ever want to grind out all my ed's again and it sounds like I'd only be able to bond one per tr. This means I'd have to regrind the entire mess of xp out without the nice easy farm of id and rusted blades. Your proposal sounds like it completely kills tr'ing.
    I am not sure they are saying that you loose the ED xp. It is possible that the "Karmic Bond" is just to 'check off' a maximized ED solely for the purposes of it being used to add 'ranks' to your TR. If so, that would mean that with each epic TR you would have to make a different maxed ED active right before your TR in order to get the bonus ranks.

    I think more clarification on this would be helpful. If it works as you are reading it (and I am hopeing the "Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR." is a misprint), where you loose ALL ED experience except for the bonded ED then I would agree that it would be a FAIL.


    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
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  5. #5
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrkGrismer View Post
    I am not sure they are saying that you loose the ED xp. It is possible that the "Karmic Bond" is just to 'check off' a maximized ED solely for the purposes of it being used to add 'ranks' to your TR. If so, that would mean that with each epic TR you would have to make a different maxed ED active right before your TR in order to get the bonus ranks.

    I think more clarification on this would be helpful. If it works as you are reading it (and I am hopeing the "Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR." is a misprint), where you loose ALL ED experience except for the bonded ED then I would agree that it would be a FAIL.
    I really hope you're right and it's a misprint. I was excited to hear about the idea of epic tr. I like most of the epic quests much more than low level and would have been very happy to do it. But I do not want to lose all the xp I ground out on epic destinies. Please please please turbine let me be wrong.

  6. #6
    Community Member Jacobius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I really hope you're right and it's a misprint. I was excited to hear about the idea of epic tr. I like most of the epic quests much more than low level and would have been very happy to do it. But I do not want to lose all the xp I ground out on epic destinies. Please please please turbine let me be wrong.
    I believe also that even when you epic TR you start back at level 1. Were you thinking they would have a way to TR just back to 20? I also was liking what I saw until I noticed the part of losing you ED's XP for any type of TR. That is just a horrible thought.

  7. #7
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacobius View Post
    I believe also that even when you epic TR you start back at level 1. Were you thinking they would have a way to TR just back to 20? I also was liking what I saw until I noticed the part of losing you ED's XP for any type of TR. That is just a horrible thought.
    It was more what I had thought the system would be like from previous rumors ext, this thing I think is an abomination.

  8. #8
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    So if I'm reading this correctly, any type of TR, including heroic TR will wipe my destinies clean. Massive ouch. I guess if I have any TR'ing to do, I should do it before the new TR system hits.

    Glin, I hope you realize that at this point in time, the level increase to 28 is actually a penalty on players, especially those looking to TR. We of course need more info on what is in store for these 3 levels, but based on current information, it's a handful of hp, saves and skills as well as a feat. The penalty is a massively reduced quest pool to gain experience from as you start to suffer overlevel penalties after you reach level 28 and start farming destiny xp.

    Basically, you want players to start their epic destiny xp grind from scratch and earn one destiny per TR (epic or heroic). So if I TR (epic or heroic) my toon that has maxed out epic destinies, I get to keep one of them, say dreadnaught as well as 55 ranks toward my next life (due to 5 levels in each of 11 destinies).

    Now my next question is, for my followup destiny TR, now that dreadnaught is bonded, will I always receive 5 free ranks into my new TR? So my second destiny TR will start me at level 2 and my 3rd (assuming I bond another destiny) will start me at level 3 and so on?

    Also, this is the big question here. How do we attain destiny TR hearts? Will it be store only? Or will be we able to earn them in game in some reasonable fashion, like standard TR hearts?
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    So if I'm reading this correctly, any type of TR, including heroic TR will wipe my destinies clean. Massive ouch. I guess if I have any TR'ing to do, I should do it before the new TR system hits.
    I'm reading it if you Heroic TR you don't affect your ED XP at all - although you will still get the benefit of gaining ranks from your ED levels - so you could start at level 12 each time with capped ED's?
    If you Epic TR you reset your ED XP for any "unbonded" destiny.

    Actually, maybe starting at level 12 each time would be overkill.

    EDIT: Nah, scratch that. If you Heroic TR it should work exactly as it does right now. You start at level 1 and your ED XP is untouched. If you choose to Epic TR then you start at level 1 or 15 depending if you are TRing to an Iconic or not, and you gain additional ranks based on the number of ED levels you had when you TR'd. That'll work out okay ..... so long as it's crystal clear that Epic TRing is optional but will cost you ED XP.
    Last edited by Deadlock; 06-12-2013 at 06:14 PM.

  10. #10
    The Hatchery SisAmethyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrkGrismer View Post
    I am not sure they are saying that you loose the ED xp. It is possible that the "Karmic Bond" is just to 'check off' a maximized ED solely for the purposes of it being used to add 'ranks' to your TR. If so, that would mean that with each epic TR you would have to make a different maxed ED active right before your TR in order to get the bonus ranks...
    I hope you are right, but yes, more clarification on this topic would be much appreciated as otherwise it will stop my further reincarnation plans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gratch View Post
    I'm guessing there's going to be True Hearts of Wood for similar to current heroic TR that doesn't affect your ED XP as well as new Epic True Hearts of Wood that require you to be L28, have an active maxed ED and this will wipe out your ED XP but will give you the new ED past life feat and will lock ("bond") that Epic TR'ed ED as capped...
    Arggh, not sure this is such a good idea. I mean I am very happy they finally get rid of that LR and GR clutter. So that is really a good change that a LR will allow to transfer from 28pt to 32 pt. But if they just got rid of the GR heart to add a couple of more hearts where you then even have to take care as hell that you not get the wrong one or wipe your ED, nahhhh ...
    * We have collectable bags, hell even hireling folders, but can I have that 6-pack for my potions please?
    * Having already a past life on the dieng EU servers, I rerolled here and started from scratch as I like the game and the community, so lets see what awaits me here

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrkGrismer View Post
    I am not sure they are saying that you loose the ED xp. It is possible that the "Karmic Bond" is just to 'check off' a maximized ED solely for the purposes of it being used to add 'ranks' to your TR. If so, that would mean that with each epic TR you would have to make a different maxed ED active right before your TR in order to get the bonus ranks.

    I think more clarification on this would be helpful. If it works as you are reading it (and I am hopeing the "Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR." is a misprint), where you loose ALL ED experience except for the bonded ED then I would agree that it would be a FAIL.
    I read it that each time you Epic TR you "bond" a destiny, that's the one that you get the Epic Destiny Past Life Feat for, that's the one you keep the ED XP for and you lose the ED XP from any "unbonded" destinies.

    Your Fate points will be reset based initially on your ED Levels, so that's not changing, so you'll initially start with less. Each time you get to 20 you will initially have a number of Fate Points based on your "bonded" destinies.

    I've re-read this a load of times and ran some numbers and it's not so bad.

  12. #12
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    I agree with Charononus, losing all destiny xp is a major kick in the teeth. It's hard to imagine any past life feats that would be worth that. And if you do manage to make something worthwhile, you run into game balance issues between people who stack up a bunch of them vs. people who don't have any.

    You say that we'll gain heroic ranks for any epic destiny xp lost.... well great, but which ranks? The first ranks? It takes maybe 90 minutes to gain the first 15 or so ranks on a 36 point build. Seems like a poor return on investment. Bear in mind that maxing out destinies as they are now takes 21,780,000 xp, compared to the 4,378,500 it takes to get to level 20 on a 36 point build. Anyone who has spent the last year maxing out their destinies (or who have tried to and haven't been able to come close which is probably the majority of players) likely won't even consider it.

  13. #13
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ytteri View Post
    I agree with Charononus, losing all destiny xp is a major kick in the teeth. It's hard to imagine any past life feats that would be worth that. And if you do manage to make something worthwhile, you run into game balance issues between people who stack up a bunch of them vs. people who don't have any.
    The power from these PL feats would need to be insanely OP for me to consider junking my EDs on ANY of my toons.

    I'm talking game-breaking OP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    The power from these PL feats would need to be insanely OP for me to consider junking my EDs on ANY of my toons.

    I'm talking game-breaking OP.
    This is exactly what I'm thinking also. The only thing that comes close to me thinking this might work would be if the Bonded Epic Destiny(s) are accessible at level 1 when you TR. Practically anything less than that kills TRing if you have anything in the Epic Destinies unlocked.

    BTW, does this scrubbing of ED XP also destroy all the Fate Points? Because I read nothing in the statement that touched on Fate Points or Twists of Fate.

  15. #15
    Community Member Jacobius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    This is exactly what I'm thinking also. The only thing that comes close to me thinking this might work would be if the Bonded Epic Destiny(s) are accessible at level 1 when you TR. Practically anything less than that kills TRing if you have anything in the Epic Destinies unlocked.

    BTW, does this scrubbing of ED XP also destroy all the Fate Points? Because I read nothing in the statement that touched on Fate Points or Twists of Fate.
    Hmmmm if you get to keep your fate points and when you level back your destinies you get fate points again allowing for higher level 2nd and 3rd twists them it MIGHT again I say MIGHT be worth it.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    The power from these PL feats would need to be insanely OP for me to consider junking my EDs on ANY of my toons.

    I'm talking game-breaking OP.
    Bingo. There is almost no chance I would do an Epic TR and lose my gained ED. It was too painful/time consuming to gain.

    This is something that really needs to be seriously, seriously rethought.

  17. #17
    Community Member Seikojin's Avatar
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    For me, meh, I like the features and even if my ED's are wiped per reincarnation, I won't mind. It isn't like the grind is that long for ED's.

    I think a choice between Epic TR and normal TR would be the best mitigation. Have Kruz have a 4th dialog option?
    Last edited by IWCoppercrest; 06-15-2013 at 10:11 PM.

  18. #18
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    Rather than wiping the entire ED set, how about: When reincarnating, prompt the person to designate which ED they want to use for their epic reincarnation, and wipe the exp only from that ED.
    Cannith, Slicing Blow. Vilenna (18/1/1 Clonkard), Marvala (20 monk), Phrenia (19/1 rogue/fighter), Malchara (12/6/2 AA), Denaria (18/2 ...wonk?)

  19. #19
    Community Member Dawnsfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Complete failure, I'd never ever want to grind out all my ed's again and it sounds like I'd only be able to bond one per tr. This means I'd have to regrind the entire mess of xp out without the nice easy farm of id and rusted blades. Your proposal sounds like it completely kills tr'ing.
    The same old heroic TR will be there if that is what you like. I like that there are going to be new options. You do what you like and the rest of us will do what we like.

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    I’m only nerfing you now so I can buff you later.

  20. #20
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawnsfire View Post
    the same old heroic tr will be there if that is what you like. I like that there are going to be new options. You do what you like and the rest of us will do what we like.
    wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by glin View Post

    epic advantage


    with any type of true reincarnation, all epic destiny levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting destiny levels into heroic ranks. Every level of epic destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (epic destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ed tr.)

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