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  1. #1701
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    Quote Originally Posted by sir_smacks_alot View Post
    Option 2 does seem very inviting to me on the toons I have a lot of destinies. It is also not bad for the ones I have just a few destinies done with.

    On the other hand the ones I don't have a lot of destiny work done on at the moment option 1 seems really nice. I could burn the few epic destinies I already have done, then get to level back up to 20 faster. Once I got to 20 I would actually get about the same amount done again as I level to 28. Then bond another and have more xp to make it easier to get back up to 20 to work on them again.

    Although each solution has its merits, which would be better for the game as a whole?

    It would be nice to have an in game poll, maybe once the ideas have been narrowed down to 2-3 actual possibilities. Maybe doing an optional vote in the game. I bet that you would get a much clearer idea of what the community actually wants than you will ever get from a forum thread. Face it the forums is probably less than 1% of the game population.

    Also the forums is populated mostly by people who actually fit into the smallest portion of the community as a whole.
    What would be actually be best is #2, with an optional box to reset all your epic destinies (or even more complicated version in which you get to decide one-by-one which destinies to retain and which to reset) in exchange for bankable xp (ie epic advantage). And as I've stated a zillion times, for the love of Pete please don't require me to go back to level 0 if all I really want is the epic tr and past-life.
    Thelanis:
    Annikka (Sorc), Dannikka (F), Jannikka (Rgr)
    Tamikka (Bard), Famikka (Rgr)
    Bellynda (Cl), Mellynda (M)

  2. #1702
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    I'm not sure what exactly the devs mean by adjusting the xp curves, but I've thought for a while that the heroic TR curve could adjust a bit and be okay. Completionists, please chime in as needed.

    My thought has been to leave the first and second TR as is. Then back it down one percent for each subsequent TR.

    TR1 +5%/level
    TR2 +10%/level
    TR3 +9%/level
    TR4 +8%/level
    ...

    But never go below what a first life character needs.
    As I've stated, personally I pretty much stop at tr 2, since the additional carrots aren't worth it for me relative to the rewards. So this suggestion would be a step in the right direction without trivializing the path to completionist.
    Thelanis:
    Annikka (Sorc), Dannikka (F), Jannikka (Rgr)
    Tamikka (Bard), Famikka (Rgr)
    Bellynda (Cl), Mellynda (M)

  3. #1703
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    Quote Originally Posted by RightToRemainStupid View Post
    I think my last comment in this thread got deleted. It went something along the lines of:

    So has this thread devolved into accepting a slightly watered down version of what Turbine were throwing at us yet?
    No, I would say it's just the opposite. The original counterproposals (even the player's choice one) seemed to retain a significant portion of Turbines orginal ideas. But more and more it seems like "don't reset destiny xp" is becoming a line-in-the-sand and it's being seriously considered by the devs as "option 2" of only 2 options. So I think this is one case where the devs are moving to us more than we are moving to them.
    Thelanis:
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    Tamikka (Bard), Famikka (Rgr)
    Bellynda (Cl), Mellynda (M)

  4. #1704
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    With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)
    What are heroic ranks in this case??

    I have a 25 sorc with 9 capped destinies and about to cap the last two... if he tr's I loose everything and I get HEROIC RANKS??

    If I TR him NOW; and the update comes out and he reaches 20, does het gets his ED as is?

    If he does, he'll do one last TR, else he will never ever ever ever ever TR again ever after in all eternity. And beyond.

    *sigh* and I had such TR plans for him

  5. #1705
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    If Turbine still goes down the inanely stupid road of resetting destiny XP they might as well just unplug the servers. TRs will stop, the game will die.

  6. #1706
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    If Turbine still goes down the inanely stupid road of resetting destiny XP they might as well just unplug the servers. TRs will stop, the game will die.
    I wouldn't go that far, but I at least will be seriously annoyed and I certainly won't be grinding any destinies out until I know for sure what they intend to do.

    The main problem is not that it's a bad idea, it's that it so royally screws everyone who's done a lot of TRing on existing characters AND who has gone ahead and maxed out their destinies. If they like to TR, they will probably *want* to epic TR, but doing so means losing a *lot* of investment to get, basically, nothing. Now, if "epic TR" just sets you back to 20, resetting destinies wouldn't be such a big deal because you'd be in a position to grind them out rapidly. 8 epic levels equates to about 3.5 destinies of xp, so you could chew through the epic TR's you want fairly rapidly without having to repeat all the heroic content yet again and by the time you have epic completionist (assuming you want it) you'd also have all your destinies re-bound.

    If an epic TR is an entire heroic TR on top of the epic levels . . . ugh. That's seriously painful even if they dramatically fix the XP curve. I put a lot of effort into my two main toons--one is a Completionist and the other has 17 past lives and is going to BE completionist soon. I look forward to whatever epic TR brings to the table but I sure don't look forward to doing another 13+ full lives on each of these toons.

    I'm not looking to make heroic TRing into a mess, though, which might be problematic if epic TR resets you to 20. Will you get the benefit of a heroic TR? Will the epic TR benefits make the heroic TR benefits look like a joke? Heroic TR keeps the lower levels of the game full of experienced people who can either help or be a serious annoyance to newbies, but that's one of the big things that makes DDO different from other games. A few months after release the newbie areas in other MMO's tend to be EMPTY. This isn't the case in DDO.

    Maybe some sort of compromise could be reached that allows for an enjoyable Epic TR but doesn't completely trash heroic TR. Maybe make it so that you can choose whether to start at 20 and just get the Epic TR bennie OR to start at 1 and get BOTH an epic TR bennie AND a heroic TR bennie?

    I think some of the heroic past life feats for some of the classes could use some tweaking, by the way. With the new epic content and destinies they just aren't as desirable as they once were. Making them a little more attractive would go a long way toward ensuring that the new system doesn't completely override the old one.
    I edited a book!

    Thelanis player: Arekkeh, Kimberlei (heroic completionist), Lehren (heroic/epic completionist), Natheme, Terpsikhore

  7. #1707
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    Turbine again tries to bottle **** as perfume

  8. #1708

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    Just reposting for those not wanting to hunt thru 86 pages:

    Best bet, hunt the Dev Tracker
    https://www.ddo.com/en/forums/post_t...ker=devtracker

    Just for kicks, I'll quote them all from this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    I am excited to start sharing our plans for the future of the Reincarnation system! Later this year (targeting Update 20) we look forward to introducing two new TR destinations, Epic Destiny True Reincarnation and Iconic True Reincarnation. We’ve got some minor improvements involving Lesser and Greater Reincarnation in store, as well.


    We’ve seen a number of questions and discussions about TR, Iconics, and the TR / end-game gap. For the expansion pack, we are focused on ensuring that the new races are fun and playable, the content is fun and beautiful, and that the enhancement system changes launch as expected! With that, we plan to build out the TR system later in the year. The team is also taking the time to get your early feedback as the designers and engineers lock down feature plans. - How does this fit (or change) your playstyle? Read on for details, then let us know!

    A few goals for Epic Destiny TR:


    • Extend Reincarnation system to allow for 38-point builds
    • Include Epic Destinies in the TR cycle (with Epic Destiny Past Life Feats)
    • Reward you for additional investment in Epic Destinies (with starting ranks after TR)
    • Adjust the XP curve in Epic levels for multi-life TR to avoid the dramatic escalating grind
    • Include Iconics in the TR cycle (with Iconic Past Life Feats)
    • Allow you to TR into and out of Iconics (if you own Iconics)


    How does this system look in practice?

    Heroic True Reincarnation


    • Heroic TR remains primarily unchanged at level 20 or above
    • Grants a Class Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
    • Adds 2 build points up to a 36 point build
    • Benefits from the Epic Advantage if you earn Epic Destinies before TR (below)


    Epic Destiny True Reincarnation


    • Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)
    • Grants an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat
      • Feat based on active, maximized Epic Destiny

    • Karmic Bond -The active ED’s experience is now bonded through each ED True Reincarnation going forward
    • Grants a Class Past Life Feat (same as Heroic TR)
    • You must have a maximized, non-bonded ED to complete this TR
    • Adds 2 build points up to a 38 point build


    Epic Advantage


    With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)

    Iconic True Reincarnation

    That’s right; Iconics will have their own form of True Reincarnation, earning their own unique set of past-life feats. You will also be able to TR from any character into an Iconic, which begins at level 15, like normal. Epic Advantage also works on both ends, as well, transferring ED XP earned in your Iconic life, and, if you TR into an Iconic, adding XP on top of your level 15 starting XP.Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)


    • Grants an Iconic Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
    • Adds 2 build points up a 36 point build
    • Earns ranks from Epic Advantage


    What else?

    Here are some changes we’re currently exploring:


    • Reincarnation cooldown timer reduced to 3 days.
    • Reincarnation XP curves smoothed to ease penalties for multiple lives.
    • Lesser Reincarnation will allow a Heroic character to reincarnate as a Champion. Greater Reincarnation will no longer be sold, in favor of an improved Lesser Reincarnation.
    • Iconic characters will be able to Lesser Reincarnate


    We are eager to begin production on this system and appreciate the many players that are eager to see us fulfill the end game potential that the TR system presents. With these changes we are also keeping a long-term view for TR, such as how to expand the Epic Destiny system and continue to support level cap growth in the future.


    Our sincere intentions are to provide these features to you, and the DDO community at large. We invite you response to these details and thank you for your support and fortitude while we roll these changes out in support of this year’s expansion pack. The team is thrilled that DDO continues to grow, innovate, and provide a great D&D experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Thanks for all the responses so far everyone. The team will try to address the details as best we can this early in development. Here are a few more clarifications as we’re reviewing your comments:

    • Our intention is that players will be able to earn or buy Epic Destiny TR hearts of wood.
    • We’ll continue to add more epic level content so that players have a variety of paths for leveling.
    • To engage with Epic Destiny TR, you don’t have to have all destinies maxed out. Character level 28 + one maxed destiny is when you can bond your first destiny.
    • We are revisiting XP curves in not only the Heroic levels but also the Epic levels. This would make leveling (and ultimately bonding) a Destiny a faster process compared to the current pace.
    • True Reincarnation has always been about giving up your current life in exchange for increased power in your next life. We are early enough in the design work that we want to also hear ideas from players on what types of destiny feats they’d like to see in their next life in exchange for reincarnating their destinies.

    We are also making balance changes to compensate for the fact that the system goes into higher levels, and we expect that parts of the design summary will seem less harsh once these details are better understood. We’ll be reading discussion in this thread and will continue to post here with more details as we go (such as details regarding Fate Points, Completionist, and the exact effects of turning in your Epic Destiny xp on your new life).
    Introduction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Please folks, feel free to express your opinions, but fighting each other and flinging insults and name-calling is not necessary.
    Fawn went to bed and things got messy in her absence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Just to address people's passionate comments and opinions here: Keep in mind that this information is being presented to you far in advance of its implementation, and there's plenty of room to re-work the proposal in a variety of ways.
    More of the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    I moved the heading Iconic True Reincarnation into a separate line for better clarity, as it was initially formatted in error.
    The discussion turned to questioning Cordovan editing the original post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Also, just to note that the edit was made a few minutes after the post was initially made.

    Last edited by Cordovan; 06-12-2013 at 01:50 PM.
    More of the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

    We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

    Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

    1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

    2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

    Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.
    Developers return from their weekend and try to restore order.

    Please note that the second paragraph, first line is should be read like thus:
    We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation,
    and we understand your concern about not getting enough in return.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Wrong. Please, remember that this is more of a brainstorming session than it is a set in stone announcement about what's coming.

    Additionally, while we appreciate people's passionate opinions about this issue, the amount of rage in this thread needs to be lowered. Nothing is set in stone. Repeat:

    NOTHING IS SET IN STONE.

    I have frequently read on the forums that folks would like to see more back and forth with the developers in regards to hot issues undergoing development work. This is your chance to do so in a way that doesn't amount to screaming in someone's face. Keep in mind that there's a lot of discussion taking place based on your feedback, but a lot of that discussion will not be made public until it's in a state to put out there as a possibility or an idea being put forward for feedback.
    Cordovan earned his cookies this week, and Fawn noticed that the more she posted the more calm people seemed to be,
    so she flooded this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    This thread has been read quite a bit by the dev team and other folks directly, and we'll be continuing this discussion throughout the coming days and weeks. Please remember to keep things civil and not insult each other or the Turbine development team.
    Greatly encouraging news.

    This most important part is "and other folks directly" but I will not elaborate further as I have an ancient NDA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    The team has been having some further design discussions, based on feedback from this thread. It seems important to state - they recognize that several players are already very invested in Epic Destinies, this was absolutely part of the early design discussions. There are a couple Epic game-play solutions in debate that we’ll be sharing with you as well. There won’t be any flash decisions made as design changes are considered, between posts we will be spending a lot of time reviewing the many directions the system can take players, as we are a few months away from starting development.

    Thank you for sharing your feedback, reactions and ideas with us. More to come soon, and I'd expect, over the coming weeks as well.

    ~Erik
    @producerglin
    They do mean this.
    Will not comment further.
    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    Actually "several" may be overstating when we are talking about maxing out all EDs. There is a good portion of players that focus on TR, and others that run only to cap picking up a couple ED's then roll an Alt. There are also casual players that don't play every week and take a very long time to take a character through content.

    There are a lot of things to consider when we are adding to a system like TR that impacts so many play styles. I don't expect we will be able to put all the detail into dev posts, but we are trying to respond to the things that are causing the most concern.
    Note this contains a typo replace the word "overstating" with "understating".

    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Hi.
    Just wanted to touch base with you all again on this. Your feedback during this early stage of development for this system has definitely been helpful. And I’ll reiterate that because we are early in the process, we haven’t locked anything down. Now on to some additional info.

    We have multiple goals with a system like this, such as:
    • Give players the new option of TR-ing at level cap.
    • Give players more things to achieve with a high level TR type character (like epic destiny past life feats and build points).
    • Allow Iconic Hero characters to use the reincarnation system.
    • Optimize the system to help people have a good play experience. (This is a tough one, because there are different opinions on what a “good play experience” is, but this could mean giving incentives to concentrate on different Epic Destinies than were played in the previous life, for example.)
    • And as a less design-oriented but equally important goal: If changes are needed that affect players’ current investment, compensate them for the changes.

    If we can arrive at a place in a given system where we can accomplish all or many of the goals in a way that is good for the game, short term and long term, then that’s a great solution. Many systems, however, are of sufficient complexity to make this a very interesting balancing act. But even with that complexity, it’s still possible to have a good solution. It just takes some time and iteration to get there. This was one of the reasons to start this thread and see what people thought about the new system and the first design proposal.

    So, here’s some more info on a couple of options we are currently considering.

    Option 1: XP “Bank” System
    When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

    Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
    When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

    We are considering more than just these two options, but we thought you might like to know a bit about what we are currently thinking. Thanks again.
    One of the more important ones here, and strong concession.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    One goal is to fairly reimburse time invested without promoting Epic vs. Heroic based on XP/minute.

    The XP ratio hasn't been stated nor determined for reasons you make obvious. This is one of those places where it doesn't even make sense for us to worry deeply about the numbers unless it's decided the idea in general could make any sense. (We know players always love seeing the numbers, but if we went in this direction we'd likely just going to go look at and see how much XP/minute players are actually getting at different levels to figure out a ratio. 1:1 isn't special. It could be 1:3 or 3:1 or pi:e:i.)

    Another goal is allowing efficiently earning of heroic class-based past lives while playing epic content. Right now it's "wasteful" to play epic if your primary concern is past lives.

    Another goal is to not make heroic reincarnation better than Epic Destiny reincarnation, making it still often "right" to do heroic reincarnation instead of ever playing epic. We of course expect that Epic Destiny reincarnation should be better in some way(s), because it's more effort to achieve it.


    Fate Points: An example dive into some details
    We are aware of concerns with Fate Points under any proposal. They are somewhat tricksy.

    We could consider having characters "remember" how many they had. However, we don't consider it viable to let you gain more Fate Points as you regain Destiny XP (should we choose to go forward with any of proposal where any kind of XP is lost, whether from one destiny or many). That leads to infinite or at least "quite a lot" of Fate Points in the long run. That unfortunately means that if we simply blindly preserve your total but don't let you accumulate more until you would have more: The right thing to do is never TR until you have maxed out all Epic Destinies. We know that some players like to break up earning Destinies with reincarnation, and we would like to support that.

    There are some corollary changes we could consider (a system where Destiny levels still earns more Fate Points up to the normal cap, for example) that might work, but the more complicated the proposal the less likely we are to want to use it. Complexity is inherently undesirable for corollaries such as this, in terms of designing the solution, making sure it covers all the bases, making sure all players understand it (including most players who never read the forums, let alone post), and of course actually implementing it... and implementing correctly. The more complicated it is the more likely there are bugs (or even perceived bugs, or just plain confusion, which impact enjoyment of DDO regardless).

    This is just one example of topics we've discussed lately. Please don't take this as an indication that we're obviously going with something that causes Destiny XP loss because we've explored this. We're trying many other ideas on like hats, and trying to get it right from the start, exploring some issues now before we pick a single proposal or get near implementing anything. There's quite a lot of other topics brought up internally and on this thread that matter (both to us and to you!)



    This is unlikely because there's lots of other things we could do with that development time, which we suspect most players would prefer. It's still easy enough to find non-TR threads where players have plenty of other ideas we can work on. If implementing many options were quick, easy, and unlikely to generate bugs we'd consider it, but Reincarnation doesn't fall into that category, and reincarnation bugs are quite frustrating (for everyone).
    A lot there, including a reaction to Fawn's math that one could farm 40 fate points per a life later on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Great post and thoughts, clear and well presented. Thanks for taking the time to write this us.


    Some interesting ideas.
    The main post not in this thread, it is made the Player Choice Design Thread started by famous Sig.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Tomes of Fate drop in loot, from Caught in the Web and Fall of Truth.
    The discussion wandered a bit here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    That's interesting, I've always personally wondered about this. Thanks for doing it and reporting the results.
    Someone reported doing a legend life w/o xp pots or repeating quests.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Epic Destiny True Reincarnation is defined as happening at level cap, not at level 28.

    If/when the level cap is increased beyond 28, so will the requirement. Yes, this means it's potentially quicker or easier if you do it sooner.

    That's our current thinking. This doesn't necessarily mean it will go on and on and on to level 999, but the important bit is that it's not tied to level 28.
    The discussion lead to level cap questions after Fawn insisted several times that Epic Destinies will increase to 10 and the level cap will go to 30.

    Someone else remarked that First Edition Rules allowed 99 levels for Humans, and an adventure pack actually used those levels.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chyghSQajgE

    Community Update discuses it as well.

    Also DDO Chronicle Issues 48 and 49 encourages people to read and post here.

  9. #1709
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    Really, Silver. Don't you ever sleep?
    It looks like you are going to be this thread's good shepherd until this thing goes live or fizzles.
    http://myaccount.turbine.com

    Je ne suis pas
    DDO Alpha Tester

  10. #1710
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    <snipped for brevity's sake
    WOW! most excellent post thank you so very much!



    Gonna have to reread that a few times though

  11. #1711
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    Just reposting for those not wanting to hunt thru 86 pages:
    Thanks i can actually spend the couple of hours in the game now.

  12. #1712
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    As you can see, there has been a massive outrage against deleting the epic destiny xp. Even if we get the option of making them into heroic ranks, it's still very, VERY outrageous.

    What I'm proposing is an alternative that might just be better for everyone, the players, the programmers, the developers, and even the people who want to make money off the game. For EVERYONE.

    Instead of deleting the epic destinies, and forcing someone to do epic TRs to be able to get epic TR feats and such (which would totally waste the twists of fates' purpose, btw), why not giving a bonus for maxing an epic destiny tree and TRing AND not delete all the other EDs?

    I was thinking something along the lines of every maxed ED tree when TRed gets a tier 5 or 6 and an innate ability of the "locked" ED - even in heroic levels? Of course, only one epic destiny feat per epic destiny tree. Or something to that pattern. That way, we can still use the other epic destiny's twists, AND the tier 5/6 of a "TRed" ED tree. It would give a huuuuuge motive to do epic TRs, as well as not totally ruin the ED trees for everyone else.

    For clarifications sake, every life you do you can pick an epic destiny feat at max tier - let's call it Fate Pinnacle. You get to keep your other EDs, trees xp, fate points, twists and all. But the Fate Pinnacle of the ED tree you pick allows you to retain your tier 5/6 (and maybe an innate?) freely chosen (like a multiple path selector) as a feat - FOREVER (heroic levels included when you TR). So, during heroic levels we can get a Fate Pinnacle moment (epic moments off the tier 6s =D). And when we hit epic levels once more, our twists of Fate and epic destinies kick in once more.

    This proposal should be subject to some fine-tuning, though. But, basically, that's my suggestion. Make maxed ED TRing worth the time via Fate Pinnacle feats (name needs working on, I know), at the same time not deleting all the time, effort, money, etc spent by folks who maxed out EDs for their twists during epic levels.

    Just a thought.

    From the guy who thought up of physical resistance.

    -Sunnyshadow

  13. #1713
    Community Member Hirosue's Avatar
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    The servers seem very under populated at the moment. As a European based player I can’t recall a time where player numbers dropped so significantly so fast. There is very little activity Euro prime time compared to a couple of months ago.

    Personally I think this announcement i.e. loss of epic destiny, combined with the enhancement pass preview and Never Winter game is the reason.

    I sincerely hope that Turbine will think again on their plans or at least announce that current destines will be locked i.e. not deleted.

    My main character is on 8th life. Currently level 22 .All epic destinies capped. The servers are so empty of epic LFM, excluding destiny farm that my only option for this character at this time is to park it, to spend 20 minutes filling group each time or to TR it.

    But i beginning to feel that any more time spent playing DDO is a waste of time as I’m pretty sure loss of epic destiny will make me never TR again so quit playing.

    Please note that my character is a healer and I advertise every quest that I do o the LFM and most groups are not filling. My main is well known good reputation healer.

    I enjoy TR and heroic level 1-20. But for sure the loss of all capped epic destiny means that I won’t TR my main again. I’m not interested in TR and start at level 12. Start at level 12 is no compensation to me for loss of epic destiny.

    In fact the worst part of TR for me and many others is level 18-20 million + of XP for 2 levels is not fun.

    Pretty much all my other characters are at cap except 2 bank mules that I have no interest in levelling.

    So for me loss of epic destiny is a game breaker.

    I can only surmise that this is the same for many others due to the drastic fall in population. I am quite sure that this change as proposed will not be the end of DDO game. Some people will always hang onto old declining games no matter what.

    But it will be the end of DDO for me. I won’t TR my main again. All my others are capped and I won’t TR them. I don’t want to see the time and effort that i put into gaining epic destinies deleted. There really isn’t any way to compensate me for this deletion of my time and effort.

    This is not a rant or a threat to quit .Just a simple explanation of how I personally feel about the changes proposed. I suspect that I am not alone based on declining server population and 86 pages of moan in this thread.

    Please Turbine think again and at least announce that current characters will not be subject to any destiny loss because if you don’t do something to allay the fears of existing customers , player numbers will continue to decline.
    "Player testers have done an excelent job and I really do appreciate the testing done by the players that report the issues which then get ignored ......."

  14. #1714
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    19

    Unhappy See you later, DDO

    I think the best solution would be...

    After epic TR, loose all xp from one (1) selected destiny. IF that destiny was capped, receive an epic past-life feat.

    Example 1: My 20 FvS is level 28 with all destinies capped. 20 fate points (with tome). I select Exalted Angel and epic TR. Exalted Angel drops to 0 xp. I restart with (another) FvS passive past life. When I hit level 20 I can reopen my destinies and start earning within Exalted Angel again. Still have all the other destinies capped, still have 18 fate points.

    Example 2: My 12 Mnk/7 Druid/1 Ftr reaches level 28 with 3 Primal/4Shiradi/4 Dreadnaught/5 Grandmaster. I select Grandmaster. After epic TR as a Wiz, I get the monk PL feat. When I reach 20 Wiz I can open destinies with 3 Primal/4 Shiradi/4 Dread. I get the Grandmaster PL feat. I can open any tree in the arcane, melee or primal areas, but no access to divine until I earn 4 Grandmaster again.

    *RANT*
    Your proposed system is not actually bad, however, the way it interacts with the Fate Point/Twist system is very, very, very bad.

    Here's the essence of the problem, from my point of view: playing in the 'wrong' destiny is just not fun.

    I've tried grinding ID 800 times and I've tried actually questing (much slower), but neither is any fun at all. I think the whole Fate Point system is broken. The whole thing is so bad, I actually designed an entire build around starting at the destiny I wanted and moving around the tree efficiently and then TRing to the build I actually wanted to end up with. I did this twice. Well, I thought that destiny xp would persist through TR.

    I would never be happy trading destiny xp for heroic xp. Not everybody enjoys heroic xp as much as I do, but everybody loathes the destiny grind. That would not be a solution for me. Grinding the destinies was too painful. You need to let me keep my twists, keep my tree options, and continue to progress my characters.

    The way to truly fix this is to try to change the system so that playing destinies is fun. But unfortunately you are committed to the current system I think. Making it fun would require a total overhaul.



    I love DDO, and I will never 'quit', but... I think the last two years of development have been epic fail. EDs are no good: bugged, imbalanced, grindy. The new enhancements are no good: bugged, incomplete, over complicated and tons of dumb things you have to buy to get the good stuff.

    I hadn't played for 3.5 months, came back for two weeks, and found this. All my 10 characters are capped, just waiting for the new enhancements so I can start to adapt them. I was going to work on their destinies a bit this month. Well, reading all this I can see there's no point. I'm taking another break for a month and I'll be back when the expansion is out to see if there's any reason to continue playing.

    *During this break time, I will not be buying Turbine Points.*
    Last edited by Deadnettle; 07-28-2013 at 02:59 PM.

  15. #1715
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    Dec 2009
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    146

    Thumbs down ''(Error): This update fails!'' But perhaps...

    *RANT*
    Aha... oh this is a good April Fools joke to say the least! That is, if it were April Fools. This is by far the worst update avid, long-time DDO players have seen in recent history. Turbine shouldn't think for one second that they are doing something great here. I don't care what you do: I'm not paying to KEEP my epic destinies on TR, which BY THE WAY if you haven't noticed, I ALREADY paid for!

    Absolute joke, I will either not TR anymore, or find a game that doesn't require players to pay just to keep their hard-earned work.
    *END RANT*


    Idea time! ::::::::

    I think that getting rid of all the EDs upon TRing is a terrible idea. I think that, rather than making this an automatic process, that you should be able to SELECT the ED's you want to convert into XP for your next life. "Hey, I'ma sorc, and next life I'ma barb! I obviously don't need the Draconic ED anymore, so leme trash that and get a little head-start on my next life's leveling, but that the same time, I get to keep my Fury ED. Definitely not going to scrap that one. But I don't really need Exalted Angel either, and that would give me a boost..." You see what I'm trying to say here? Let the player choose which ED to convert to next life's XP. If they don't want to convert any, let them keep all of em! If they want to convert all and get a huge boost, great! If they only want to convert those that will not help in their next life, great! They still get a boost.
    Last edited by Clemeit; 07-28-2013 at 04:56 PM.

  16. #1716
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    Feb 2010
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    72

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    Or just get rid of the Epic Advantage ****, nyahahaha!

    Seriously. If you want people to play more epic content, then make the epic content fun - not force them to do endless grinds (once more - especially after you delete their ED xp).

    If you want folks to buy epic hearts of wood, why not just make the epic hearts of wood "wipe-out" ED xp except for a locked destiny tree, giving a past life destiny feat based on the locked tree, AND make them level 20 again, fresh for a new epic content grind BUT with a new epic past life destiny feat? It might give more incentive to do the grind once more IN EPIC CONTENT (someone said that you want players to play more epic content, right?) without affecting those who DO NOT WANT their epic destinies to be wiped out of all existence wasting their time and effort into getting them (rambled on a bit there). This would affect only the epic content, as that's the content that this planned update seems so focused upon.

    That's another serious suggestion. Make an Epic Advantage an actual advantage in epic content. Make those past life destiny feats really awesome (like keeping the entire locked tree available as long as the feat is active - make it a chosen feat so we don't have epic folks running around in tree form doing fury and in master's blitz doing dragon fly-bys all over the place). But leave it in epic content (levels 21 to 28, if you will).

    Please don't punish the rest of us who want to do heroic content without losing the hard-earned destinies when we reach 20 again. Please.



    Don't set your plan in stone. Do away with your proposed epic advantage. Frankly, it sucks. Whoever thought of it should be forced to grind our epic destinies all over again. Sorry if that insulted the person who thought of it - but seriously, what were you thinking?! Oo, delete their xp. GOOD PLAN! Really? REEEEALLY!?

  17. #1717
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    May 2013
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    Turbine: Bravely blurring the line between customer and addict.

  18. #1718
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Eighty-six pages of mostly the same people saying the same thing over and over again.

    I have no idea what Turbine envisions doing with this. Whatever the initial concept, it has been lost in the page after page of Chicken Little commentary.

    What I originally understood was that greater reincarnation was going to go away, lesser reincarnation was going to change to incorporate elements of greater reincarnation, true reincarnation was going to remain for characters L20+ and a new epic reincarnation was going to be introduced.

    As far as I could tell, the idea was that players could advance their build point totals via reincarnation presuming that they had met specific criteria. Unlocking 32 point builds via favor would cause LR to invoke the GR effect that is on live now. Going thru a TR would open up 34 and 36 point builds just as it now does. Taking an ER (not necessarily the best abbreviation) would let characters get 38 point builds and also gave some epic based perks by converting epic XP to heroic XP (allowing characters to by-pass releveling and to jump into epic content again almost immediately).

    It seemed to me that nothing forced the ER. Nothing forced the loss of epic destinies or epic XP. Players were still being given the chance to TR and retain what they had. The trade off -- they had to level up from L1 to L20 running all the heroic content and they were limited to the 36 point builds. That seemed fair, it is what we have already. And, I suppose some people like running all the old quests over and over again.

    OTOH, players could choose to take the ER. Yes, they lost epic XP and epic destinies had to be reaquired. But they skipped all or most of the heroic content. They picked up other feats or characteristics based on past epic lives. That seems fair too.

    I think that a system that lets me choose how to reincarnate is great. I'm much more likely to choose the ER if it means skipping all the heroic levels. I'm less likely to grind out epic destinies if I know that doing so isn't going to be useful until I'm settled in on my "this is me forever" build. Completionist -- both heroic and epic -- becomes something worth pursuing, as do multiple lives.

    And, dropping the cooldown on the reincarnation counter to 3 days means that I can knock out past lives if that is where my focus really is.

    I'm in favor of the idea. I'll be interested to see a more complete reveal. But, I hope it will be in a thread where the "OMG it is change, must be bad" Chicken Littles of DDO haven't given us eighty plus pages of falling skies to wade thru in order to try and figure out what the developers really have in mind.

  19. #1719

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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Eighty-six pages of mostly the same people saying the same thing over and over again.

    I have no idea what Turbine envisions doing with this. Whatever the initial concept, it has been lost in the page after page of Chicken Little commentary.

    What I originally understood was that greater reincarnation was going to go away, lesser reincarnation was going to change to incorporate elements of greater reincarnation, true reincarnation was going to remain for characters L20+ and a new epic reincarnation was going to be introduced.

    As far as I could tell, the idea was that players could advance their build point totals via reincarnation presuming that they had met specific criteria. Unlocking 32 point builds via favor would cause LR to invoke the GR effect that is on live now. Going thru a TR would open up 34 and 36 point builds just as it now does. Taking an ER (not necessarily the best abbreviation) would let characters get 38 point builds and also gave some epic based perks by converting epic XP to heroic XP (allowing characters to by-pass releveling and to jump into epic content again almost immediately).

    It seemed to me that nothing forced the ER. Nothing forced the loss of epic destinies or epic XP. Players were still being given the chance to TR and retain what they had. The trade off -- they had to level up from L1 to L20 running all the heroic content and they were limited to the 36 point builds. That seemed fair, it is what we have already. And, I suppose some people like running all the old quests over and over again.

    OTOH, players could choose to take the ER. Yes, they lost epic XP and epic destinies had to be reaquired. But they skipped all or most of the heroic content. They picked up other feats or characteristics based on past epic lives. That seems fair too.

    I think that a system that lets me choose how to reincarnate is great. I'm much more likely to choose the ER if it means skipping all the heroic levels. I'm less likely to grind out epic destinies if I know that doing so isn't going to be useful until I'm settled in on my "this is me forever" build. Completionist -- both heroic and epic -- becomes something worth pursuing, as do multiple lives.

    And, dropping the cooldown on the reincarnation counter to 3 days means that I can knock out past lives if that is where my focus really is.

    I'm in favor of the idea. I'll be interested to see a more complete reveal. But, I hope it will be in a thread where the "OMG it is change, must be bad" Chicken Littles of DDO haven't given us eighty plus pages of falling skies to wade thru in order to try and figure out what the developers really have in mind.
    Well said.

    I would imagine the rational end result will be that when a player CHOOSES to ER (i'm going with the abrev.), said player can also CHOOSE to trade-in one or more capped destiny paths to get a jump on the new life. IE: starting at lvl 10 or the like.

    All seems fairly straight forward to me. Makes sense. And I guess the logical extension would be that the destiny you trade in directly relates to the epic past life feat you get.

    **checks the sky** yep still up

  20. #1720

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    I think some of this is somewhat scary given the changes to TRing AND the changes to Enhancements. Some players have spent quite a bit of time making "perfect" builds, look into the people that can Solo EE everything even raids. I have played with people that have sick builds and other players ask "how do I do that?". Soon all of this will change, maybe? There are a lot of questions, that are going un-answered and that breeds fear.

    Do I lose all Fate Points?
    Do I lose sphere access and thus have to re-level to get to the other Destinies again?
    Can I just Heroic TR when I have Epic Destinies?
    Epic TR mentions being at level cap (28)...so I could max the EDs, camp at lvl 27, and then Heroic TR like the current system?
    Can we have an idea of what the Epic PLs might be?
    Can we have an idea of what the Iconic PLs might be?
    Do I TR before the change?

    Some people have been burned before, DT pajamas were great before MoTU changed AC and added PR. The cool weapon you grinded to get got an upgrade after the augment pass, oops just grind it again. We changed how Epic Items are created, no more farming quests to get a scroll, seal, and shard. Just run on EH or EE for a stronger item.

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