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  1. #1681

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adoyall View Post
    when I hit 20 I TR and forget the ed's, they don't matter to me to be honest as it is something I will work on at completion.
    That will be a brutally long process at completion, what with overlevel penalties and the new ransack repetition penalty mechanic. (Where they expire after a week.)

  2. #1682
    Community Member magn0liafan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeMemory View Post
    The trouble began when we split the XP and leveling into separate lines for character leveling and epic destinies. It was great for the 20-25 level expansion model, but doesn't scale well into higher levels. We're now looking for a full cap reincarnation, but epic destinies were built differently than character progression. Trying to base epic TR on the side-car XP system of epic destinies will only continue to cause problems. This will become even more apparent as you extend the cap beyond 28. But that was a business decision and is still (for the moment) a sellable item.

    I would like to emphasize THIS PROBLEM IS FIXABLE! You only have to look in a different direction for a very simple and practical solution.

    What we need is "epic TR", not "epic destiny TR". "Epic destiny TR" will only cause more headaches. Just look at the last 84 pages of rage. To achieve this you simply need to return generic epic levels back to their class levels. This will be much less painful and much easier to code than wiping ED points, bonding destinies, banking points, flagging EDs, etc... (Besides the potential bugs, it's just more complicated rules to learn.) Epic TR will also keep your players happier. This simply means getting rid of the generic "epic" class for 21+ and going to back actual classes. This means you can now go up to a level 28+ fighter, wizard, rogue, etc. instead of 20 fighter/8 epic. Multi-classes would have any classes that add up to the current level cap.

    Epic TR would have nothing to do with epic destiny. Epic destinies are sold separately, and uses its own XP slider. Like heroic TR, Epic TR would be based on dominant class (now up to 28). The Epic TR past life feats (free and feat slotted) would be greatly improved versions of the Heroic PL class based feats. Epic TR feats would replace Heroic TR feats once earned, just like Improved Evasion replaces Evasion. When a character with three heroic past life feats in the same class goes through their first Epic TR, they would now have 1 free epic past life feat and 2 free heroic past life feats, as well well as option to use a feat slot on the epic version of the purchased past life feat. Up to three epic TRs in a single class could earn three epic past life feats, each upgrading a heroic version if one existed. It's really the same thing, but its "epic"!

    Epic Destinies earned would continue to be out of play in heroic levels. All epic destiny levels earned would be available. It would for the moment remain just the same as it is now. In the future (I diverge) new levels of epic destinies can be made available say every 3-5 levels and only usable at those levels.

    This would work for everybody:

    - Epic TR with worthy percs to motivate achieving cap
    - Heroic TR unchanged
    - Epic destinies unchanged (future enhancements possible)
    - For devs, most of this code should already exist.


    I know this is buried down 84 pages, but give it some consideration. I think it would improve the game, keep players interested, and make DDO scaleable for even more level cap hikes and new content.

    I like the Occam's Razor approach you went with. Seems like it would be less of a headache from a programmer's perspective.
    "F*** Jay and Silent Bob, f*** them up their stupid a**es."
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  3. #1683
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    Quote Originally Posted by Game_Whino View Post
    Suggestions:

    Make sure there is an easy way to earn Epic TR hearts in the same way we can currently earn Heroic TR hearts. Add these token/ fragments to all Forgotten realm epic quests. I suggest naming these "Tokens of haggis" since I suggested it and it would be hilarious to trade haggis for epic TRs. (All my characters have haggis in their name somewhere). While you're at it, fix epic Gianthold so its quests actually drop tokens/fragments of the twelve.
    The easier availability of heroic hearts due to epic-casual/normal/hard is likely one of the reasons for the change. I think they are looking at making someone who grinds their epic hearts to be in the same category with those who favor grind the whole game. More the exception than the rule.

    In order to create an incentive for people to epic TR, I suggest letting players perm buyable feats upon epic TR. This would also solve 2 other problems with TRing. Those problems are that currently, once you've got 3 past life feats under your belt for each class you gain no further bonus from additional TRs and feats are to tight on most builds to allow you to fit in your buyable past life feats. If you allow individuals to "perm" non-epic feats during TRing, really dedicated players will be rewarded by having feats become less and less tight on their builds. As for concerns that this could become overpowered, well yeah. If someone wants to do 39 epic TRs it would make sense that they would be much much more powerful than someone who hasn't epic TR'd yet (or who has only done 3 TRs.)

    Another idea, shamelessly stolen from a guildie of mine, would be to make each epic TR reduce the ML of your items by 1 or 2. If someone does 10-20 epic TRs in a row they should be allowed to use ML 20 items at level 1 if only for the comedy and drama it would create in the forum. Also, it would facilitate further TRs by that person because completely destroying content that once, many lives ago, was hard is insanely fun.

    Ya know, or you can just add a bunch of pointless grind to the game without giving the players shinies that are actually of value to general gameplay.
    Both of these ideas make differing amounts of past lives barriers to playing together, at least in any meaningful way. I think they would be best off keeping TRing more or less something one does for it's own sake, than to make it greatly game changing. That, and either of those ideas would make the game old pretty quick once god mode sets in.

  4. #1684
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeMemory View Post
    The trouble began when we split the XP and leveling into separate lines for character leveling and epic destinies. It was great for the 20-25 level expansion model, but doesn't scale well into higher levels. We're now looking for a full cap reincarnation, but epic destinies were built differently than character progression. Trying to base epic TR on the side-car XP system of epic destinies will only continue to cause problems. This will become even more apparent as you extend the cap beyond 28. But that was a business decision and is still (for the moment) a sellable item.

    I would like to emphasize THIS PROBLEM IS FIXABLE! You only have to look in a different direction for a very simple and practical solution.

    What we need is "epic TR", not "epic destiny TR". "Epic destiny TR" will only cause more headaches. Just look at the last 84 pages of rage. To achieve this you simply need to return generic epic levels back to their class levels. This will be much less painful and much easier to code than wiping ED points, bonding destinies, banking points, flagging EDs, etc... (Besides the potential bugs, it's just more complicated rules to learn.) Epic TR will also keep your players happier. This simply means getting rid of the generic "epic" class for 21+ and going to back actual classes. This means you can now go up to a level 28+ fighter, wizard, rogue, etc. instead of 20 fighter/8 epic. Multi-classes would have any classes that add up to the current level cap.

    Epic TR would have nothing to do with epic destiny. Epic destinies are sold separately, and uses its own XP slider. Like heroic TR, Epic TR would be based on dominant class (now up to 28). The Epic TR past life feats (free and feat slotted) would be greatly improved versions of the Heroic PL class based feats. Epic TR feats would replace Heroic TR feats once earned, just like Improved Evasion replaces Evasion. When a character with three heroic past life feats in the same class goes through their first Epic TR, they would now have 1 free epic past life feat and 2 free heroic past life feats, as well well as option to use a feat slot on the epic version of the purchased past life feat. Up to three epic TRs in a single class could earn three epic past life feats, each upgrading a heroic version if one existed. It's really the same thing, but its "epic"!

    Epic Destinies earned would continue to be out of play in heroic levels. All epic destiny levels earned would be available. It would for the moment remain just the same as it is now. In the future (I diverge) new levels of epic destinies can be made available say every 3-5 levels and only usable at those levels.

    This would work for everybody:

    - Epic TR with worthy percs to motivate achieving cap
    - Heroic TR unchanged
    - Epic destinies unchanged (future enhancements possible)
    - For devs, most of this code should already exist.


    I know this is buried down 84 pages, but give it some consideration. I think it would improve the game, keep players interested, and make DDO scaleable for even more level cap hikes and new content.

    I agree with your basic summary (epic tr, heroic tr, epic destinies unchanged). What I don't get is why you complicate things by wanting to convert back to class levels instead of generic epic levels (imo other games like neverwinter nights that allowed class levels past 20 seemed to break down).

    The simplest solution is the best. And the simplest solution is:
    -- heroic tr as present
    -- epic destinies not reset upon tr
    -- epic tr resets generic epic level to 20 upon reaching cap (lvl 28?)
    -- you can epic tr again once you have reached cap again and some minimum days have passed

    Bottom line is you will need "z" xp to get from lvl 20 to 28. Turbine just needs to ensure that "z" is something reasonable which can't be reached in a couple of hours but doesn't take years either. I don't see why the "z" value should change if the cap is increased to lvl 30 or beyond. That's punitive to players down the road and makes current players say "let's work on our epic tr's right now" (even though maybe they'd rather be doing something else...why "force" players to do something "unfun" if you don't have to?).

    Past life epic feat should come from any of the epic destinies you have capped when you epic tr. Whether that particular destiny (and only that one) should be reset to zero or not is a minor discussion point. Fate points don't need to be reset as they are based on your destinies which you would keep.

    How is that not the simplest solution? How is that in any way overpowered (assuming they don't make the epic past life feats ridiculously overpowered)? Players can heroic tr, or epic tr, or work on destinies according to what their own priorities are and what they actually enjoy doing. They don't have to worry about the most efficient path because there is no "most-efficient way" or "optimal order" to approach the game. Increased level cap down the road won't be a factor. No one gets mad because they have to reset all their epic destinies if they want to epic tr. No one gets mad that they have a 4th life wizard (3 wiz PL feats) and they are being forced to return to level 0 (ie heroic) when they epic tr but they won't get any further benefit of another wizard heroic PL since they already have the maximum 3.

    Under my format, Turbine could even add an additional tier to the epic destinies without worrying about inducing a rage hysteria since if destiny xp doesn't reset you don't ever lose progress you make in a bunch of destinies (and presumable additional tiers would come with additional benefits and also increase overall fate points).

    I'm really not understanding all the counterproposals, which although preferable to Turbine's ideas always seem to keep (or even add) some level of complexity which just isn't needed. To me it's like all the arguments against having a regular reincarnation that includes alignment and race and sex and as many class levels as you like. Apparently, one type of regular reincarnation that lets you change absolutely everything would be horribly op, yet I've never read a reasonable explanation of why that would be so.
    Thelanis:
    Annikka (Sorc), Dannikka (F), Jannikka (Rgr)
    Tamikka (Bard), Famikka (Rgr)
    Bellynda (Cl), Mellynda (M)

  5. #1685

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    Just reposting for those not wanting to hunt thru 85 pages:

    Best bet, hunt the Dev Tracker
    https://www.ddo.com/en/forums/post_t...ker=devtracker

    Just for kicks, I'll quote them all from this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    I am excited to start sharing our plans for the future of the Reincarnation system! Later this year (targeting Update 20) we look forward to introducing two new TR destinations, Epic Destiny True Reincarnation and Iconic True Reincarnation. We’ve got some minor improvements involving Lesser and Greater Reincarnation in store, as well.


    We’ve seen a number of questions and discussions about TR, Iconics, and the TR / end-game gap. For the expansion pack, we are focused on ensuring that the new races are fun and playable, the content is fun and beautiful, and that the enhancement system changes launch as expected! With that, we plan to build out the TR system later in the year. The team is also taking the time to get your early feedback as the designers and engineers lock down feature plans. - How does this fit (or change) your playstyle? Read on for details, then let us know!

    A few goals for Epic Destiny TR:


    • Extend Reincarnation system to allow for 38-point builds
    • Include Epic Destinies in the TR cycle (with Epic Destiny Past Life Feats)
    • Reward you for additional investment in Epic Destinies (with starting ranks after TR)
    • Adjust the XP curve in Epic levels for multi-life TR to avoid the dramatic escalating grind
    • Include Iconics in the TR cycle (with Iconic Past Life Feats)
    • Allow you to TR into and out of Iconics (if you own Iconics)


    How does this system look in practice?

    Heroic True Reincarnation


    • Heroic TR remains primarily unchanged at level 20 or above
    • Grants a Class Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
    • Adds 2 build points up to a 36 point build
    • Benefits from the Epic Advantage if you earn Epic Destinies before TR (below)


    Epic Destiny True Reincarnation


    • Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)
    • Grants an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat
      • Feat based on active, maximized Epic Destiny

    • Karmic Bond -The active ED’s experience is now bonded through each ED True Reincarnation going forward
    • Grants a Class Past Life Feat (same as Heroic TR)
    • You must have a maximized, non-bonded ED to complete this TR
    • Adds 2 build points up to a 38 point build


    Epic Advantage


    With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)

    Iconic True Reincarnation

    That’s right; Iconics will have their own form of True Reincarnation, earning their own unique set of past-life feats. You will also be able to TR from any character into an Iconic, which begins at level 15, like normal. Epic Advantage also works on both ends, as well, transferring ED XP earned in your Iconic life, and, if you TR into an Iconic, adding XP on top of your level 15 starting XP.Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)


    • Grants an Iconic Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
    • Adds 2 build points up a 36 point build
    • Earns ranks from Epic Advantage


    What else?

    Here are some changes we’re currently exploring:


    • Reincarnation cooldown timer reduced to 3 days.
    • Reincarnation XP curves smoothed to ease penalties for multiple lives.
    • Lesser Reincarnation will allow a Heroic character to reincarnate as a Champion. Greater Reincarnation will no longer be sold, in favor of an improved Lesser Reincarnation.
    • Iconic characters will be able to Lesser Reincarnate


    We are eager to begin production on this system and appreciate the many players that are eager to see us fulfill the end game potential that the TR system presents. With these changes we are also keeping a long-term view for TR, such as how to expand the Epic Destiny system and continue to support level cap growth in the future.


    Our sincere intentions are to provide these features to you, and the DDO community at large. We invite you response to these details and thank you for your support and fortitude while we roll these changes out in support of this year’s expansion pack. The team is thrilled that DDO continues to grow, innovate, and provide a great D&D experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Thanks for all the responses so far everyone. The team will try to address the details as best we can this early in development. Here are a few more clarifications as we’re reviewing your comments:

    • Our intention is that players will be able to earn or buy Epic Destiny TR hearts of wood.
    • We’ll continue to add more epic level content so that players have a variety of paths for leveling.
    • To engage with Epic Destiny TR, you don’t have to have all destinies maxed out. Character level 28 + one maxed destiny is when you can bond your first destiny.
    • We are revisiting XP curves in not only the Heroic levels but also the Epic levels. This would make leveling (and ultimately bonding) a Destiny a faster process compared to the current pace.
    • True Reincarnation has always been about giving up your current life in exchange for increased power in your next life. We are early enough in the design work that we want to also hear ideas from players on what types of destiny feats they’d like to see in their next life in exchange for reincarnating their destinies.

    We are also making balance changes to compensate for the fact that the system goes into higher levels, and we expect that parts of the design summary will seem less harsh once these details are better understood. We’ll be reading discussion in this thread and will continue to post here with more details as we go (such as details regarding Fate Points, Completionist, and the exact effects of turning in your Epic Destiny xp on your new life).
    Introduction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Please folks, feel free to express your opinions, but fighting each other and flinging insults and name-calling is not necessary.
    Fawn went to bed and things got messy in her absence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Just to address people's passionate comments and opinions here: Keep in mind that this information is being presented to you far in advance of its implementation, and there's plenty of room to re-work the proposal in a variety of ways.
    More of the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    I moved the heading Iconic True Reincarnation into a separate line for better clarity, as it was initially formatted in error.
    The discussion turned to questioning Cordovan editing the original post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Also, just to note that the edit was made a few minutes after the post was initially made.

    Last edited by Cordovan; 06-12-2013 at 01:50 PM.
    More of the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

    We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

    Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

    1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

    2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

    Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.
    Developers return from their weekend and try to restore order.

    Please note that the second paragraph, first line is should be read like thus:
    We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation,
    and we understand your concern about not getting enough in return.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Wrong. Please, remember that this is more of a brainstorming session than it is a set in stone announcement about what's coming.

    Additionally, while we appreciate people's passionate opinions about this issue, the amount of rage in this thread needs to be lowered. Nothing is set in stone. Repeat:

    NOTHING IS SET IN STONE.

    I have frequently read on the forums that folks would like to see more back and forth with the developers in regards to hot issues undergoing development work. This is your chance to do so in a way that doesn't amount to screaming in someone's face. Keep in mind that there's a lot of discussion taking place based on your feedback, but a lot of that discussion will not be made public until it's in a state to put out there as a possibility or an idea being put forward for feedback.
    Cordovan earned his cookies this week, and Fawn noticed that the more she posted the more calm people seemed to be,
    so she flooded this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    This thread has been read quite a bit by the dev team and other folks directly, and we'll be continuing this discussion throughout the coming days and weeks. Please remember to keep things civil and not insult each other or the Turbine development team.
    Greatly encouraging news.

    This most important part is "and other folks directly" but I will not elaborate further as I have an ancient NDA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    The team has been having some further design discussions, based on feedback from this thread. It seems important to state - they recognize that several players are already very invested in Epic Destinies, this was absolutely part of the early design discussions. There are a couple Epic game-play solutions in debate that we’ll be sharing with you as well. There won’t be any flash decisions made as design changes are considered, between posts we will be spending a lot of time reviewing the many directions the system can take players, as we are a few months away from starting development.

    Thank you for sharing your feedback, reactions and ideas with us. More to come soon, and I'd expect, over the coming weeks as well.

    ~Erik
    @producerglin
    They do mean this.
    Will not comment further.
    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    Actually "several" may be overstating when we are talking about maxing out all EDs. There is a good portion of players that focus on TR, and others that run only to cap picking up a couple ED's then roll an Alt. There are also casual players that don't play every week and take a very long time to take a character through content.

    There are a lot of things to consider when we are adding to a system like TR that impacts so many play styles. I don't expect we will be able to put all the detail into dev posts, but we are trying to respond to the things that are causing the most concern.
    Note this contains a typo replace the word "overstating" with "understating".

    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Hi.
    Just wanted to touch base with you all again on this. Your feedback during this early stage of development for this system has definitely been helpful. And I’ll reiterate that because we are early in the process, we haven’t locked anything down. Now on to some additional info.

    We have multiple goals with a system like this, such as:
    • Give players the new option of TR-ing at level cap.
    • Give players more things to achieve with a high level TR type character (like epic destiny past life feats and build points).
    • Allow Iconic Hero characters to use the reincarnation system.
    • Optimize the system to help people have a good play experience. (This is a tough one, because there are different opinions on what a “good play experience” is, but this could mean giving incentives to concentrate on different Epic Destinies than were played in the previous life, for example.)
    • And as a less design-oriented but equally important goal: If changes are needed that affect players’ current investment, compensate them for the changes.

    If we can arrive at a place in a given system where we can accomplish all or many of the goals in a way that is good for the game, short term and long term, then that’s a great solution. Many systems, however, are of sufficient complexity to make this a very interesting balancing act. But even with that complexity, it’s still possible to have a good solution. It just takes some time and iteration to get there. This was one of the reasons to start this thread and see what people thought about the new system and the first design proposal.

    So, here’s some more info on a couple of options we are currently considering.

    Option 1: XP “Bank” System
    When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

    Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
    When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

    We are considering more than just these two options, but we thought you might like to know a bit about what we are currently thinking. Thanks again.
    One of the more important ones here, and strong concession.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    One goal is to fairly reimburse time invested without promoting Epic vs. Heroic based on XP/minute.

    The XP ratio hasn't been stated nor determined for reasons you make obvious. This is one of those places where it doesn't even make sense for us to worry deeply about the numbers unless it's decided the idea in general could make any sense. (We know players always love seeing the numbers, but if we went in this direction we'd likely just going to go look at and see how much XP/minute players are actually getting at different levels to figure out a ratio. 1:1 isn't special. It could be 1:3 or 3:1 or pi:e:i.)

    Another goal is allowing efficiently earning of heroic class-based past lives while playing epic content. Right now it's "wasteful" to play epic if your primary concern is past lives.

    Another goal is to not make heroic reincarnation better than Epic Destiny reincarnation, making it still often "right" to do heroic reincarnation instead of ever playing epic. We of course expect that Epic Destiny reincarnation should be better in some way(s), because it's more effort to achieve it.


    Fate Points: An example dive into some details
    We are aware of concerns with Fate Points under any proposal. They are somewhat tricksy.

    We could consider having characters "remember" how many they had. However, we don't consider it viable to let you gain more Fate Points as you regain Destiny XP (should we choose to go forward with any of proposal where any kind of XP is lost, whether from one destiny or many). That leads to infinite or at least "quite a lot" of Fate Points in the long run. That unfortunately means that if we simply blindly preserve your total but don't let you accumulate more until you would have more: The right thing to do is never TR until you have maxed out all Epic Destinies. We know that some players like to break up earning Destinies with reincarnation, and we would like to support that.

    There are some corollary changes we could consider (a system where Destiny levels still earns more Fate Points up to the normal cap, for example) that might work, but the more complicated the proposal the less likely we are to want to use it. Complexity is inherently undesirable for corollaries such as this, in terms of designing the solution, making sure it covers all the bases, making sure all players understand it (including most players who never read the forums, let alone post), and of course actually implementing it... and implementing correctly. The more complicated it is the more likely there are bugs (or even perceived bugs, or just plain confusion, which impact enjoyment of DDO regardless).

    This is just one example of topics we've discussed lately. Please don't take this as an indication that we're obviously going with something that causes Destiny XP loss because we've explored this. We're trying many other ideas on like hats, and trying to get it right from the start, exploring some issues now before we pick a single proposal or get near implementing anything. There's quite a lot of other topics brought up internally and on this thread that matter (both to us and to you!)



    This is unlikely because there's lots of other things we could do with that development time, which we suspect most players would prefer. It's still easy enough to find non-TR threads where players have plenty of other ideas we can work on. If implementing many options were quick, easy, and unlikely to generate bugs we'd consider it, but Reincarnation doesn't fall into that category, and reincarnation bugs are quite frustrating (for everyone).
    A lot there, including a reaction to Fawn's math that one could farm 40 fate points per a life later on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Great post and thoughts, clear and well presented. Thanks for taking the time to write this us.


    Some interesting ideas.
    The main post not in this thread, it is made the Player Choice Design Thread started by famous Sig.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Tomes of Fate drop in loot, from Caught in the Web and Fall of Truth.
    The discussion wandered a bit here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    That's interesting, I've always personally wondered about this. Thanks for doing it and reporting the results.
    Someone reported doing a legend life w/o xp pots or repeating quests.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Epic Destiny True Reincarnation is defined as happening at level cap, not at level 28.

    If/when the level cap is increased beyond 28, so will the requirement. Yes, this means it's potentially quicker or easier if you do it sooner.

    That's our current thinking. This doesn't necessarily mean it will go on and on and on to level 999, but the important bit is that it's not tied to level 28.
    The discussion lead to level cap questions after Fawn insisted several times that Epic Destinies will increase to 10 and the level cap will go to 30.

    Someone else remarked that First Edition Rules allowed 99 levels for Humans, and an adventure pack actually used those levels.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chyghSQajgE

    Community Update discuses it as well.

    Also DDO Chronicle Issues 48 and 49 encourages people to read and post here.

  6. #1686
    Community Member EatSmart's Avatar
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    Why is there a need to erase ED xp at all under the epic TR system? There is already a metric for xp between 20 and level cap: character xp. Going from 20->25 takes more xp than going from 0->5 in a destiny so by reaching 25 you've earned a capped destiny's worth of xp. Under the current proposal you dont intend us to retag a bound destiny a 2nd time, so that already encourages us to level in a new destiny when we do the 20 -> cap xp run.

    If the requirements were:
    Heroic TR: lvl 20+
    Epic TR: lvl capped + untagged capped destiny

    And the mechanic was to erase character xp, preserving all destiny xp, then I think that would cover most people's objections. For those people with all their destinies capped already, they would be losing out on the fact that they could have levelled their epic TR and destiny xp at the same time, but they would be gaining the advantage of being able to level in their most appropriate destiny and already fully functional.

    Or: why not erase the destiny xp of the one capped one we're chosing to gain the benefit from? That allows you the option of introducing a bonus for TRing a specific destiny multiple times at a future date.

    I dont think anyone objects to repeating the xp grind from 20 -> level cap. The issue is the loss of what is potentially 10+ million destiny xp that we were lead to believe from the MOTU beta discussions on TRing and its interaction with destiny xp would be permanantly locked into the character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torc View Post
    We like the fact it’s a choice as suppose to, “hell we just kill yonder dragon cause we’re OP”.
    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    I say we take off and nerf the whole game from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

  7. #1687
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    Ed TR should only reset the experince of the Ed you are getting the past life and should take to lv 20 not 1, because people who already have heroic past lifes triple stacked will have taht work wasted if they want to get epic past lifes.

  8. #1688
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    quote, blurb, quote, blurb
    Thanks for that, great way to catch up on something I sort of gave up on! +1
    (one thing, psst, Cordovan is a he )

  9. #1689
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellihor View Post
    Ed TR should only reset the experince of the Ed you are getting the past life and should take to lv 20 not 1, because people who already have heroic past lifes triple stacked will have taht work wasted if they want to get epic past lifes.
    ^---this

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    Has anyone considered the epic tr hearts may only be available by store purchase or by obtaining things in game which can only be acquired in content in the new expansion? Meaning doing it for free will not be possible. Just a thought i had.

  11. #1691
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Has anyone considered the epic tr hearts may only be available by store purchase or by obtaining things in game which can only be acquired in content in the new expansion? Meaning doing it for free will not be possible. Just a thought i had.
    I actually find it quite likely that whatever the turn in is will have a drop rate around that of astral diamonds. It's likely the ease at which heroic hearts can be obtained with the lower difficulty epic levels we now have that prompted this whole change. Considering this, I also expect heroic TRing to have some sort of drawback added, like the purposed loss of ED xp, to keep players from using them as a "poorman's" TR option.

  12. #1692
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    *singing

    This is the thread that never ends.
    It just goes on and on, my friends.
    Some people starting posting here,
    not knowing what it was.
    And they will keep on posting here
    forever just because...

    *repeats

    There have been a lot of good ideas in this thread (and some other stuff :@). I just hope the devs make some friendly adjustments and avoid proving the doomsayers right.
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    IIrc, iconic PL's stack x3, but ED PL's do not stack. This should assuage completionist concerns.

    The 400kg gorilla in the room is what happens to all the surplus ED XP upon a TR, and how the devs are going to address it.
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  14. #1694
    Community Member Manatha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post

    • Extend Reincarnation system to allow for 38-point builds
    • Include Epic Destinies in the TR cycle (with Epic Destiny Past Life Feats)
    • Reward you for additional investment in Epic Destinies (with starting ranks after TR)
    • Adjust the XP curve in Epic levels for multi-life TR to avoid the dramatic escalating grind
    • Include Iconics in the TR cycle (with Iconic Past Life Feats)
    • Allow you to TR into and out of Iconics (if you own Iconics)


    How does this system look in practice?

    Heroic True Reincarnation


    • Heroic TR remains primarily unchanged at level 20 or above
    • Grants a Class Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
    • Adds 2 build points up to a 36 point build
    • Benefits from the Epic Advantage if you earn Epic Destinies before TR (below)


    Epic Destiny True Reincarnation


    • Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)
    • Grants an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat
      • Feat based on active, maximized Epic Destiny

    • Karmic Bond -The active ED’s experience is now bonded through each ED True Reincarnation going forward
    • Grants a Class Past Life Feat (same as Heroic TR)
    • You must have a maximized, non-bonded ED to complete this TR
    • Adds 2 build points up to a 38 point build
    Am I reading this correctly: You keep all Bonded EDs, so 11 EDs = 11 EDTR to grant 11 ED PLF. Each ED PLF is a one time grant. Your final 11th (currently) EDTR will grant you the final ED PLF so you will be able to get every ED PLF after 11 PLFs and can get the Completionist EDPLF?

    Epic Advantage


    With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)
    Are we gaining 'Epic Advantage' per ED that is bonded from EDTRs?

    Iconic True Reincarnation

    That’s right; Iconics will have their own form of True Reincarnation, earning their own unique set of past-life feats. You will also be able to TR from any character into an Iconic, which begins at level 15, like normal. Epic Advantage also works on both ends, as well, transferring ED XP earned in your Iconic life, and, if you TR into an Iconic, adding XP on top of your level 15 starting XP.Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)
    Will the Iconics force completionists to run 3 or more TRs into the iconics to keep their PLFs as a Bladeforged is still a Paladin regardless of the way it is cut?

    Will the Iconics be granting their class specific bound armor based on the fact you are TRing into them? Or will we at least have the Iconic armor made BTA so we can enjoy the unique look of the iconics on our other classes as we cycle through the TRs?
    • Grants an Iconic Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
    • Adds 2 build points up a 36 point build
    • Earns ranks from Epic Advantage
    Very cut and dried - I had actually expected Iconics to start at first level and have the ranks earned from epic advantage as it will be for other classes. Not entirely impressed that they will get such an advantage - primarily because it will cause a lot of complaining from others.


    • Reincarnation cooldown timer reduced to 3 days.
    • Reincarnation XP curves smoothed to ease penalties for multiple lives.
    • Lesser Reincarnation will allow a Heroic character to reincarnate as a Champion. Greater Reincarnation will no longer be sold, in favor of an improved Lesser Reincarnation.
    • Iconic characters will be able to Lesser Reincarnate
    Looks like a good improvement. Not entirely sure how it'll pan out with the xp curves being changed, but not too worried either.


    I have a few suggestions. First, I think the way EDs reset with TRs need changed. Here are my suggestions.

    1. Heroic TR, allows for reset of non-bonded ED if you chose the option to take Epic
    Advantage. Epic Advantage will be an option given to the TR on an airship - much as we have the boat for level 4 and level 7 veteran status players. The option will have a warning in red letters telling the individual taking epic advantage that they will lose their ED levels if they are not bonded. IE:
    *I would like to True Reincarnate without taking epic advantage. I understand that this will start me off at level 1, and all of my ED experience will remain intact, but I will not be able to access my epic destinies until I reach level 20.

    *I would like to True Reincarnate and take epic advantage. I understand that the experience I have earned in any epic destiny that is not bonded through Karmic Bond will be reset, I also understand I will gain ranks based on how many levels I earned in my epic destinies.



    2. EDTR will land you on an airship for the TR, much as with LR and GLR options currently do. The individual taking the TR will be given two options. With the understanding that as they are taking an EDTR they will have all of their EDs that are not bonded reset to 0.
    *I would like to take a bonded EDTR to level 1 and take my current class past life feat AND my current EDPLF.

    -If this option is taken, the option to take Epic Advantage will be given as well.


    *I would like to take a bonded EDTR to level 20, I understand that I will NOT gain my current class past life feat AND my EDs that are not bonded be reset to 0. I further understand that I will not be eligible for Epic Advantage this life as I will be starting from level 20. I also understand that my existing heroic feats will not be reset if I chose to begin at level 20 instead of level 1.


    These suggestions allow two things. First, it gives you the choice to use Epic Advantage, or not. It allows the current system that is being planned to be an option for those that are ok with it.

    Second, it gives those that are multi-life completionists and do NOT want to start off again at level 1, or any lower level even if they gain levels based on their EDs the option to do so.

    I believe giving players an option on how they take their future TRs will prevent some issues, and may both allow you to expand on existing TRs and benefits from TRs, AND allow you to keep those players that you'd otherwise lose over the changes in EDs being a bit harsh for them.

    The big issue is, I do not want to be 'punished' for having TRed in the past, but only just starting into the EDTRs. I also do not want to see multi-life completionists punished for having 3x in each class PLF but now have to go through each life again 11x(If they don't take the 3x in the iconics which would land them at 9 'new' lives for PLFs, leaving them still needing 2 'classic' classes as TRs).

    Edit:
    Those above me made a very good point. We were told the ED levels/xp would not be hit by TRs. I believe that ONLY the EDs we bind when we TR to buff that single ED should lose any xp at all and be reset to allow for the EDTR. Keep the idea to let us chose level 20 or level 1 with or without Epic Advantage please. Yes it means my idea needs a little tweaking, but...

    Once you told us that we will not lose exp from TRs on epic destinies you made it so when/if you try to wipe all of our EDs in a TR, you lied to us. That will break more of whatever trust is left in this company. Please do not do that.
    Last edited by Manatha; 07-21-2013 at 07:58 PM. Reason: Spacing two options so the suggestion may be clearer
    Khyber Character: Main; Manathayria; Rogue making a circuit of paladin and other lives - yes I heal, but I expect a cookie when you don't die.

  15. #1695
    Community Member Robai's Avatar
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    Default About Epic TR

    Now let me share some thoughts about Epic TR again.

    PLEASE make it this way:

    1. Don't change Heroic TR at all. It's working, I like it.
    That also means:
    - don't reduce xp needed to reach lvl 20, i.e. don't change it (we already have easy button - XP stones, which is a game breaker already IMO, there is no need for more easy buttons)
    - EDs XP is not lost during Heroic TR
    (I've been told that EDs XP won't be wiped during Heroic TR. So I've searched Dev Tracker for 3 hours and couldn't find a dev confirmation about that. Can anyone give a link if there is one?)

    2. Epic TR should be this way:
    - you have to be capped (i.e. lvl 28) and have at least one ED capped
    - all earned EDs xp stays except for the one chosen, which has to be capped
    - you gain a bonus from Epic past life from the chosen ED (some past life feat, more ED points to spend in that ED, or whatever the bonus)
    - after ETR (Epic TR) you become lvl 1 (and finally can change gender btw)
    - if you have 3 x Wiz past lives already and Epic TRed into Wiz then you can choose to be lvl 10 Wiz (yes, you'll still need to work other levels, you can choose any classes for other lvls, but your main class will stay Wiz), actually this idea could be applied to Heroic TR too (could be useful for those who want to rebuild his character and can't afford LR), and use XP stone if want it to be faster (of course, Wiz was just an example here)

    3. Please don't transfer EDs xp to Heroic xp. I want to play heroic lvls! I'm tired of playing only epics for years, it's really boring (the only reason why I didn't TR my main toon is that he is over geared with the best items in the game and don't have bank space even to consider TRing, ironically, I can TR only new rolled toons, which is not fun). Another thing is that heroic lvls lack of players to group with. Think about new players (even BB runs is better than nothing).

    4. Since past lives from Epic TR will give non weaker bonuses than Heroic TR then IMO:
    - XP needed for Epic lvls and ED lvls should be increased similarly as for Heroic TR (but stay the same after 3rd epic life as it is for Heroic TR)
    - you still keep all earned EDs XP (except for the chosen one, which is 0 xp after ETR), but might lose EDs lvls (and thus might lose some fate points too, also spheres might not be connected)

    5. The rule for Fate points stay the same as it is now (i.e. the sum of EDs lvls divided by 3). Of course, tomes stay after TR or Epic TR.

    6. To avoid some possible bugs all EDs points and Fate points should be reset upon Epic TR (since you might lose ED points on ETR and it's not clear what to do with already spent points, i.e. which of them to remove).


    Example:
    You have lvl 28 character who is lvl 20 Wiz. He has 2 Wiz past lives. He has these EDs:
    1,500,000 xp in Magister (lvl 5)
    1,080,000 xp in Fatesinger (lvl 4)
    720,000 xp in Shadowdancer (lvl 3)
    1,080,000 xp in Legendary Dreadnought (lvl 4)
    1,980,000 xp in Shiradi Champion (lvl 5)
    You have 5+4+3+4+5=21 EDs lvls, so you have 21/3 = 7 fate points.

    The only capped ED is Shiradi, so upon Epic TR you can choose only this ED.
    In Heroic TR you need approximately 65% more xp on TR1 and +130% xp on TR2, TR3, ... (it's different for individual lvls, but +65% and +130% are true for lvl 20).

    So, let's say EDs XP abides some similar rule, for example, you need 50% more xp on ETR1, and +100% XP on ETR2 (xp need for ETR3, ETR4 ... stay the same as for ETR2 though).
    (let's say multipliers 1.5 and 2.0 are the same for ED cap and lvl 28 cap)
    ED xp table is this atm:
    lvl 1 = 180,000 xp
    lvl 2 = 420,000 xp
    lvl 3 = 720,000 xp
    lvl 4 = 1,080,000 xp
    lvl 5 = 1,500,000 xp
    cap = 1,980,000 xp

    For ETR1 it would be (assuming +50% for each lvl, just to show the idea, the better way would be using similar formula to Heroic lvls):
    lvl 1 = 270,000 xp
    lvl 2 = 630,000 xp
    lvl 3 = 1,080,000 xp
    lvl 4 = 1,620,000 xp
    lvl 5 = 2,250,000 xp
    cap = 2,970,000 xp

    For ETR2+ it would be (assuming +100% for each lvl):
    lvl 1 = 360,000 xp
    lvl 2 = 840,000 xp
    lvl 3 = 1,440,000 xp
    lvl 4 = 2,160,000 xp
    lvl 5 = 3,000,000 xp
    cap = 3,960,000 xp


    So, after you undergo ETR1 you:
    - can choose any class, but let's say you choose Wiz
    - you become lvl 1 Wiz (you can't choose to be lvl 10 Wiz, because you only have 2 Wiz past lives atm)
    - for lvl 20 you need 4,378,500 heroic xp (since you are TR2+)
    - for lvl 28 you need 4,500,000 epic xp (as ETR1, which is 3,000,000 * 1.5)

    Your current ED is the chosen one, i.e. Shiradi, but lvl 0 atm.
    All EDs looks like this now:
    1,500,000 xp in Magister (lvl 3 instead of lvl 5)
    1,080,000 xp in Fatesinger (lvl 3 instead of lvl 4)
    720,000 xp in Shadowdancer (lvl 2 instead of lvl 3)
    1,080,000 xp in Legendary Dreadnought (lvl 3 instead of lvl 4)
    0 xp in Shiradi Champion (lvl 0 instead of lvl 5)
    Now you have 3+3+2+3+0=11 EDs lvls, so you have 11/3 = 3.66 = 3 fate points.

    Since your current ED is Shiradi and it doesn't have lvl 4 and Legendary Dreadnought is no longer lvl 4 then you are not connected to other spheres yet.

    Note that this way you won't lose any EDs xp at all (except for Shiradi).

    For simplicity I've used +50% xp increase for each lvls, but that's not how xp is increased for Heroic lvls (where is: +5% for lvl 1, +8.75% for lvl 2 , etc.). I mean that you would lose a lot less fate points if the similar formula from Heroic lvls would be applied.
    Last edited by TheRobai; 07-23-2013 at 10:34 AM. Reason: typo

  16. #1696
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRobai View Post
    Now let me share some thoughts about Epic TR again.

    .
    .
    .

    - EDs XP is not lost during Heroic TR
    (I've been told that EDs XP won't be wiped during Heroic TR. So I've searched Dev Tracker for 3 hours and couldn't find a dev confirmation about that. Can anyone give a link if there is one?)

    .
    .
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    These are essentially correct. When you reach level 20 again, you'll have use of whatever Destiny progress you'd made before, and don't get another first-time unlock of a new destiny.
    This is what I have found so far. Not sure if this will get you where you want.
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  17. #1697
    Community Member Robai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    This is what I have found so far. Not sure if this will get you where you want.
    Thanks, but that post was made long ago (06-29-2012) before the OP came out (06-12-2013).
    So, yes, it's not an answer I was looking for (really appreciate for trying though).

    The only answer I've found so far that partially answers my question is this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    ...
    NOTHING IS SET IN STONE.
    ...
    which also means that EDs XP might still be wiped out on Heroic TR

  18. #1698
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRobai View Post
    Thanks, but that post was made long ago (06-29-2012) before the OP came out (06-12-2013).
    So, yes, it's not an answer I was looking for (really appreciate for trying though).

    The only answer I've found so far that partially answers my question is this:

    which also means that EDs XP might still be wiped out on Heroic TR
    Ah, okay. I thought you were looking for the original promise that ED's would not be affected by TR, and that loss of ED XP during a TR was not WAI, etc.

    Yeah, we have no such promises in this thread, yet. *sigh*
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  19. #1699
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Option 2 looks like the most flexible solution as it works for pretty much everyone.

    While I see where you seem to be coming from with the changes; making a base system that doesn't rely on grinding a lot of ED's that don't match one's current build. It really only works for those who are very involved in the game and very achievement orientated, basically players who would immediately epic TR on gaining the cap in order to achieve their planned build goals. Once all those goals are achieved, start actually playing the character.

    For anyone who plays by shorter term goals, it really leaves them with fewer options. Either TR right away regardless of whether that is what they feel like doing it. TR when the mood hits them knowing that any work on twists they have done that life will be lost. Or just don't ever TR again in order to keep that work and remain viable in the tougher end game content.

    Option 2 seems to work with any type of player by, basically, keeping ED advancement a separate system. Much like crafting levels are separate. This allows players to play the way they like without regard to how TRing in one system will effect their where they are in the others.

    What this would mean to me personally. Option 2 would let me TR the 3 characters I currently have with, what is IMO, significant work done towards acquiring fate points (the only real reason I even touch most destinies with a particular build are to get fate points or be able to get to an ED I am actually interested in and I have a hard time defining what I am doing at these time as actually playing the game-which is the basic weakness with the whole ED system). It would also let me play any others at cap until I'm in the mood to TR them again. The system originally proposed would basically mean I never TR the first 3 and always stop playing the others until I am ready to TR them because anything I do with them after that would be lost if and when they do TR.
    This is well-stated. Resetting destiny xp sucks because who really wants to grind though destinies that do actually nothing for your class. And even if you are in a "fun" destiny, it really doesn't get all that fun until you cap it since the "good stuff" is really at the highest tiers. So you cap a destiny, but then just as you get the fun abilities you are moving on to a different destiny. That may be acceptable one time, but to have to repeat that process if you tr, good gosh no.

    Reconfirming the 2 most important points to me:
    1. Do not reset destiny xp
    2. Do not force a combined heroic/epic tr. Allow us to only go back to level 20 if that is our preference.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Unfortunately, this is a myth.

    Grind is optional. Farming high XP/min quests is most definitely the most time-efficient way of gaining XP, but this doesn't suit everyone. Luckily you don't need to do this.

    To prove this point, for my 40th life, we decided to:
    1. do every quest once and once only ... you have no idea how much pain this caused me to leave Shadow Crypt after only one run, but them's the rules
    2. do challenges just once to try and get as many stars as possible and the first time XP bonusses that come with them - we skipped kobold island challenges completely because they're a pain without a full party of arcanes to keep the crystals repaired
    3. tag each explorer for each wilderness area on a single run, check for rares but not reset and repeat to try and get them all, and just pick up whatever slayers we got in the process
    4. not drink any XP pots, not even the ones you get from House Cannith challenges or turning in Eberron Dragonshards

    Now both myself and my regular TR buddy have the Greater Learning Tome from the MotU expansion. I'm a VIP, but he isn't so I get the extra 10% XP from that, but he doesn't. As a VIP I get all of the volumes in the Monster Manual but he's missing the latest one I think. So I did pick up more XP from the Monster Manual in the process than he did.

    The end result was that we both reached 20 without having to repeat a single quest, just by doing an Elite Streak. We ended up banking levels and ended up having to level to avoid wasting XP, which unfortunately meant we didn't get the Elite Streak bonus for those quests. We skipped the Lords of Dust chain completely and just came back to do it on Epic because the Epic XP is so good. Probably half of the raids we didnt' have a party at-level for so we skipped those too. It's definitely not the fastest life I've ever done, but we proved it's doable. Also, when you don't have an XP Pot burning away, you're much more relaxed about taking your time through the quests, so I'm confident a semi-capable party of 3rd lifers could maintain their elite streak at least until level 18.

    So I'm afraid grind is 100% optional. You might be missing an adventure pack but that's something you can fix.
    Well, no, the grind is not optional except with respect to whether you choose to tr or not.

    Personally, I only tr my characters to a third life (to get the stat increase) and that's it. As you point out, you don't have to "farm" quests like shadow crypt in a heroic tr. And I don't. I run most quests once or twice. And it's ok to do once, or twice, but all the way to completionist? No thanks, not for me. It's still a "grind" since I prefer to play at cap.

    Don't get me wrong. The current heroic tr system is somewhat fair (almost). I'm not forced to tr any more than I choose. It's fair provided the past-life bonuses are marginal and don't make it seem "mandatory" to go for completionist. (Something like the +2 spell pen for wiz half-lives is an example of something outside of that since 3 wiz past-lives versus no past-lives seems like too much of a difference.) I can give you the plus 2 stat completionist bonuses and other small bonuses in things like hp. You are full value for those benefits, but I can still go into an Epic Elite quest on my 2-time tr and contribute. So I don't have to "grind" any more than I decide to.

    But where I have a problem is with Turbine's new proposal for epic tr. Why force everyone to go back to level 0? Maybe I want an epic past-life bonus and I'm ok with redoing level 20-28, but can't stand the thought of heroic levels. Why force me to redo that "grind". (I'm not making it a "grind" by farming certain quests, to me it's a grind no matter what.) Why reset destiny xp to 0? I might be ok with redoing levels 20-28 in a fun ED, but not OK with spending time in a bunch of "unfun" EDs. That feels "grindy" to me.
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